BW is a crummy metagame

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FNH

F is for Finchi, N is for Nator, H is for Hater
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Bro i feel like there are 2 very simple and objective solutions for BW (if you wanna ever do smt about it). You can either:

1) free everything, reset the tier and start to re-tiering from 0, the current state of BW cant get fixed or improved in any way since you (BW council) ruined the tier in the past 5 years with terrible decisions; or

2) pretend like this gen doesnt exist and dont play it from now on, then its gonna eventually get removed off our circuit and the problem is gonna disappear. We talked about BW on baril and like, we reached the conclusion that BW is played for the simple fact of the tier existing. Nobody plays BW for it being good, or fun, or healthy, people play BW cause they are forced to, at least 10 players need to get sacrificed during spl for it and thats it. Just delete it.
Your first argument, which Posho also stated, is not, as a whole, a terrible idea. Resetting the tier and then rebuilding it from the ground up is feasible method to finding a solution. The current conversation has yielded a wide variety of "solutions" being proposed by many users, some more drastic than others: ranging from banning everything to the tier is fine as is just ban kings rock (please). Currently all propossed solutions being rather subjective takes on how to fix the tier, rooted in a layer of theory-monning. Resetting the tier does give a vehicle in which we can objectively test and see what went wrong. But as great as a step back would be to look at where things went wrong, I almost wonder though what would change? I don't think I can look back on suspect tests and argue that any reached terrible decisions. Sleep ban is one I argee with. The same goes for Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Deoxys-D, Blaziken, Lando-I, Shaymin-Sky, Gensect, etc. I just see a lot of whats already been changed being implemented in the same manor as before. Which would bring us back to square 1, right where we started. The only way to make this plausible is if we banned something else that wasn't banned or unbanned something that is banned. As it stands there is not a lot of discussion for unbanning anything banned, but instead the discussion has been forcused on banning stuff that is unbanned which eliminates the needs of a tier reset. For example, a vocal group of players believe the Excadrill unban was a mistake; why do we need to go through a tier reset to remedy this mistake, we can just test it here and now. I personally think Ferrothorn is broken, same goes for scald. Lets just test it here and now. What ever others think needs to get tested lets just test. Personnally though, I dont see how a tier reset would get us anywhere but back to where we are now.

As for your second "solution" not a bad idea, let us make the Smogon classic comprised of gens 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 and elimate BW and RBY. Obviously joking, but "haha" reacts are always appreciated :)
 

peng

fuck xatu
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I would firstly be interested in a poll of community members to see what their generic tiering preferences are.

Does the playerbase value the current bw identity and would it be a priority to keep this intact? (E.g. weather wars, spikestacking, magic guard).

Or is the playerbase interested in a potentially long-term tiering process that turns BW into something completely different?

This is the crux of the matter for me. I personally think that any metagame where Ferrothorn/Spikes, Scald, Drizzle, and the Magic Guarders all exist is inherently pretty crummy because the counterplay to this is really narrow and limiting. However, changing the tier this much could result in an unplayable meta for a looooong time and i don’t know what % of people have the patience for that. if 75% of the community want to keep BW as close to its common state as possible, we can fiddle with things like Volc / items to iron out the recent issues. I think we need to know that before discussing the options much further.
 
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bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
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I’d like to cover two things in this next post. First, I’d like to cover the individual moves that need looked at, and then I’d like to give my final thoughts on what action needs to be taken.

Step 3: The Attacks/Moves
Scald: Depends on Drizzle ban (Uber if it stays)
Spikes: Uber (if OU, limit to one layer)
Stealth Rock: OU
Acrobatics: Depends on if Gems are banned (ban Flying Gem on Acro sets
Weather-changing moves: OU

That didn’t take nearly as long to type as I thought it would. I guess that leaves me with my closing thoughts, at least for now. My favorite first-step idea I’ve mentioned in my past three posts has been the Magic Guard ban mentioned in the last post. I’m also in strong support of tests for Latios, Ferrothorn, Volcarona, and Keldeo, albeit not in that order. We need to think about things that will make this metagame more popular while keeping its unique flavor. Starting the tier over from scratch is actually another idea I like, but one that isn’t going to work out well at all.

To sum up everything, ban Magic Guard from BW OU as opposed to banning Alakazam and/or Reuniclus, and suspect test Latios and the others all at the same time. Thank you all for reading my posts here.

Edit: Almost forgot about Excadrill in my recap. Re-ban the mole and unban Sand Rush while suspect testing Sand Stream, although Drizzle is the more problematic weather ability.

Edit on top of an edit: Sand Rush still needs to be banned alongside Sand Stream either way. I think we can at least agree on that.
 
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There are some really complicated suggestions here and frankly I don't think it's that great of an idea to start going after moves or abilities. When Pokémon are banned, it can give other niche choices a chance to fill in these gaps without having too profound an impact downstream. Nerfing Pokémon or banning entire playstyles frankly is what I see as the major contributor to the matchup fishy nature of the current metagame. While I agree that having too many threats to account for can definitely be a bad thing, I don't think that is really the main issue with the tier currently. On the contrary, there are a few overpowered threats which together are difficult to account for in the team builder. This results in teams which give very little leeway in preparing for archetypes they struggle against, which in turn gives those same teams an incredibly easy time building in strong matchups. I frankly would rather see more of the specific threats that are plaguing every team archetype banned than for the tier to continue to institute complex bans that fail to address the major issues appropriately. And honestly I think letting things like Chlorophyll and Sand Rush back in once the 6-7 or so offending threats are identified and removed would actually be beneficial. For example, sand balance teams might not have the same absurdly lopsided domination of rain teams if they must account for things like Stoutland and Venusaur on other teams.
 

Finchinator

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This thread is devolving in to a scattered mess. We have dozens of different suggestions that overlap, contradict each other, and just cannot coexist. While many of the individual ideas deserve proper discussion, this is not possible given the current state of this thread. As a member of the BW OU council and a long-time player, I greatly appreciate discussion of the metagame and tiering feedback. However, the current trajectory of this thread is not going to lead to anything productive. We should keep in mind that we can only walk one step at a time here.

I think it would be best if we all reflected on everything that has been brought up and decided on what the best potential course of action would be rather than continuing to throw things out there with no follow-through. I have been thinking about this lately and personally I believe banning King's Rock is a no-brainer and we should give the evolving metagame a little longer to develop while we continue to discuss. Then, we can look back in to potential other topics after Smogon Classic. I am well aware people are verbal about Excadrill, Drizzle, Latios, Volcarona, and other topics. I do not agree with acting on any of them right now, but I am willing to keep an open mind. Of course, I am only one member of the council and one player of the tier -- we have dozens of others who I am excited to hear from as well in a bit more organized fashion.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
I think it would be best if we all reflected on everything that has been brought up and decided on what the best potential course of action would be rather than continuing to throw things out there with no follow-through. I have been thinking about this lately and personally I believe banning King's Rock is a no-brainer and we should give the evolving metagame a little longer to develop while we continue to discuss.
The rest of Finch’s (if I’m allowed to call you that) post is something I definitely agree is the best call for action. It’s just that for the purpose of this reply in particular, I’m focused on this part in particular.

What can a casual player like me say about the King’s Rock? Quite frankly... it’s stupid. We’re looking at an item, or potentially a whole list of items, whose use is all left up to RNG- in this case, flinch hax. I recall seeing elsewhere that there’s a handful of people who don’t like how Skill Link Cloyster is able to effectively slap this rock onto its, uh, shell, and get flinch after flinch off its multi-hit moves. The idea of a +2 Cloyster getting effectively a 50/50 shot to flinch every time it outspeeds and clicks Icicle Spear (with no immunities to boot) means that half the time, you just can’t play against it the way you want to, especially if you’re not expecting King’s Rock in place of another item like, say, a Focus Sash for an easier Shell Smash setup. The cherry on top is that this little brat learns Ice Shard too, so even opposing priority moves have a chance of not working to stop this strategy from snowballing.

Cloyster is the worst perpetrator of this item, sure, but there are many other examples out there. With how many turns take place in the average BW singles match, that 10% flinch roll can happen more often than you think, and that’s assuming one flinch every ten uses. There’s nothing saying you can’t get flinched X times in a row. Luck-based items like this being gone only makes BW OU healthier, which is why I say go for the ban on this dumb rock.
 
As another member of the BW Council, I want to state that I concour with Finch's post.

While BW OU atm have its problems (and everyone knows that I am one of the supporters of Chlorophyll retest), we should not rush suspect tests and quick bans. We are dealing with a old gen metagame that have the most absurd power level of all generations. It's easy to break the tier with a plain bad decision.

About the discussion the community have about Kings Rock + Cloyster, the item need to be gone since its not a matter of being broken but as being uncompetitive. With a set of Shell Smash + Icicle Spears + Rock Blast + Ice Shard / Substitute, Cloyster can cheese its natural checks (Rotom-W, Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Jirachi...) because of the 43% flinch chance per multi-hit move. And there is no counter-play possible except pray to have the lucky RNG coinflip.

About the problem we have with Volcarona: I said in other chats that I'm against any Pokemon suspect atm. We are seeing a metagame shift where players are loading hyper offense structures to punish the vast amount of fat team that appeared since SPL. If, AND ONLY IF, Volcarona keep being problematic after the BW Classic is over, then i will be ok looking at this in a suspct angle. But there is other solutions way less agressive than a Volcarona ban; a Bug Gem ban as an example.
 
I have to agree about KR. I think in some other generations it simply allows something like Cloyster to 1v1 more defensive threats, but there's much less luck involved as it's almost certain to cause a flinch in the face of repeated recoveries. In Gen 5, it's almost always luck-based as the opponent is fairly likely to have something in their arsenal that can offensively pull the curtains on Cloyster's sweep. At the moment, the only real purpose this strategy has is to help someone attempt to cheese their way out of an unfavorable situation with a coin flip. Most teams will have several Pokemon that can cut Cloyster's sweep shut if they're at full health (or even if they're not if they can survive a +2 Ice Shard) as well as several methods isfor keeping Cloyster from setting up without taking an amount of damage that would preclude it from sweeping in the first place. It's not a strategy that has competitive merit. And things that separate it from Serene Grace which it is often compared to, is that it provides coin flip situations on both of its sweeping moves, is coming off a 478 or 524 speed to ensure more flinch victims, and can even cheese a flinch on its priority in pinch situations (which would be so infuriating to be on the receiving end of such bad luck).
 

Isa

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But there is other solutions way less agressive than a Volcarona ban; a Bug Gem ban as an example.
how would you construe a bug gem ban as valid within any currently existing framework for tiering

bug gem is not inherently uncompetitive, it does not turn all valid users of it into beasts, it doesnt create situations where you're strictly playing for mechanical odds

personally i find a kings rock ban to be sketchy already within the currently exxisting frameworks (as opposed to a cloyster ban which i have no issues with) unless a route is pursued to blanket ban all similarly rng-dependent items (focus band, brightpowder, yadda yadda). i can't then possibly see how banning bug gem would fit either. it's literally a case of one pokemon using the item. there are no limitations to who can use bug gem and a lot of pokémon could theoretically get mileage out of it, they just dont because bug gem isn't that good most of the time. if it's specifically volcarona carrying bug gem that's a problem for the tier, then ban volcarona.

alternatively rewrite the bw tiering framework and make incredibly surgical approaches to how the tier should be built up. ban magic guard, ban draco meteor, ban colbur berry...lots of things on the table suddenly.
 
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