Metagame BW Doubles OU (NEWLY UPDATED SAMPLE TEAMS!)

Idyll

xD
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dump of my notable bw teams for the year + i talk about defiant thundurus specifically. the defiant thundurus sets on pastes have changed a bit from the ones in replays as i began to favor LO + Crunch over Fighting Gem + Sky Drop

[TEAMDUMP]

Weatherless Moth Balance - DPL7 Week 4 vs DaWoblefet / BW Cup vs Yoda2798
:thundurus::jellicent::amoonguss::volcarona::cresselia::kyurem-black:

The idea going into the match-up was I generally wanted to be instantly advantageous against the Amoonguss balance teams which I was highly putting DaWoblefet on. At the same time, I wanted to make sure that I had strong answers against Skymin as I recognized that my own usage history can make it look like I'm vulnerable to it. Quiver Dance Volcarona fits within both ideas as it's a great balance breaker and can render Shaymin-S moot at +1. Defiant Thundurus and Expert Belt Cresselia are also attempts at beating balance; the former is handy for getting surprise quick damage on Tyranitar and Heatran, while Cresselia can make sure Amoonguss, Metagross, and Hitmontop can never get too out of hand. Scarf Kyurem-B is there to make sure Scarf Landorus-T is invalidated, and it's also nice for keeping Latios at bay. Jellicent and Amoonguss round the team out as a defensive duo that can generally deal with everything, in particular being key for the match-up against rain; while I do have Cresselia, it's not as reliable defensively due to how its EVswere invested. I typically never use weatherless in BW DOU and this might be the only team I have of the sort within the past three years, but I'd say this is a pretty solid attempt.

Scarf Tyranitar + Keldeo + SD Scizor - DPL7 Finals vs DaWoblefet
:latios::tyranitar::amoonguss::scizor::keldeo::thundurus:

This one was also for DaWoblefet but now for the DPL finals matchup. While I still had the balance match-up in mind as it really did feel like DaWoblefet's style, this time I was more wary of how I deal with Kyurem-B on either of its two better sets. I went with SD Scizor, again another set-up attacker as they're good breakers against balance, but also because it's inherently good against a lot of balance pieces such as Latios, Metagross, Cresselia, TTar, and Amoonguss. Keldeo is a curious addition as it's not really common, but I really like it as it can reliably decimate Heatran while still putting heavy pressure on KB and TTar (for Latios); Latios is used in the same vein, except Draco Meteor destroys everything instead. Choice Scarf Tyranitar is there to make sure opposing Latios don't become too problematic, as it's still capable of just nabbing one every time. I'm using fast bulky Thundurus in order to maximize my range in stuff I can Sky Drop, which can be really handy in getting surprise unpins on my attackers. I genuinely like this team as I feel like it's a good attempt at maximizing Scizor while not being too exposed by Heatran and Jellicent.

The Six but it's Defiant Thundurus - BW Cup vs Yoda2798
:hitmontop::jellicent::latios::heatran::tyranitar::thundurus:

It's the six. But it has Defiant Thundurus. I talk about Defiant Thundurus specifically later on this post, but in the context of this team I don't think it actually needs Prankster Thunder Wave as the rain match-up isn't that bad, considering it has Jellicent, Latios, and Tyranitar. What the team does appreciate, however, is more aggressive options in dealing with Latios, Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, etc..--iThundurus's handy for taking advantage of what would generally be average matchups into surprisingly daunting pressure and pins, which in turn helps me in positioning with my other 5 which are quite in dealing with a broad range of stuff by themselves already. The rest are pretty simple as they are essentially the default sets.

[DEFIANT THUNDURUS]

I have been using Defiant Thundurus throughout DPL and Classic and I can honestly say that it's a real valid set for BW DOU. It's been a generally effective pick from my experience and is basically not a meme.

:bw/thundurus:
Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Protect
Thundurus (M) @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Superpower
- Sky Drop
- Protect


The idea with this set when I first tried it out is that Prankster Thundurus typically baits out stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran, stuff which this particular set can obliterate. Teams usually don't want their offensive stuff Thunder Waved, so they usually send out their slow, bulky stuff which this set can more effectively punish with significant damage. As Prankster Thundurus and Defiant Thundurus essentially have to be dealt with in different ways and with different checks, I wanted to take advantage of this fact by using it to make quick picks, opening up opportunities for other guys; this kind of surprise element for me was valuable, especially since DPL was only a best-of-1.

Still, this set had consistency even with it being within my meta. It's strikingly effective at keeping a lot of key threats at bay with pure offensive pressure, owing to the fact that it's faster than Latios and how its coverage lets it hit a lot of key Pokemon in the metagame super effectively. Wild Charge hits hard enough neutrally as LO Thundurus still has the raw attack to be respectable and it notably hits Jellicent for SE. Superpower decimates TTar and takes a fat chunk out of KB and Heatran. Crunch is literally only for Latios but this is still valuable as Latios is one of the most daunting threats in BW DOU and is almost always in every non-rain team. All of the threats I mentioned here are Tier 1 threats. I've found that teams often just resort to using Intimidate when it comes to dealing with physical attackers, which this set punishes; as long as Thundurus has teammates that can keep Landorus-T from Rock Sliding e.g. Wide Guard Hitmontop, Scarf Kyurem-B, then it can basically wreak havoc on most opposing balance teams.

While it does have Defiant as an ability, a lot of this set's value isn't even about punishing Intimidate. Rather, it moreso comes from how it has the super effective coverage on a lot of key targets in the metagame on top of the fact that it can be a bit of a puzzle to tell apart whether a team has Prankster or Defiant from preview. Defiant Thundurus isn't necessarily a strong (physical) attacker in its own right, but it nevertheless is quite effective, this effectiveness being a product of the metagame. As long as balance teams still look like they usually do, this set should still be quite effective and I definitely recommend people give it a try if an opportunity to play BW DOU comes around.
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
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Some thoughts on how the BW metagame has shifted over the past few tournaments:

SMB(W)
SMB once again shatters the idea of BW being an inconsistent tier with another dominant performance. Only losing a single game in all of BW Cup and only one BW game in Classic Finals, coupled with a string of top 4 placements in past years, SMB has pushed the BW metagame in different ways with his impact in both play and teambuilding. SMB has carved out new niches in Pokemon, such as Choice Scarf Kyurem-B or offensive Ghost Gem Jellicent, in addition to actually building teams. A good player who is able to create independently viable teams is going to do well, and I think a player wise to metagame trends should be analyzing what SMB is doing in BW if they want to succeed in the tier.

Stagnant Rain
:bw/politoed:
Very little has come by way of pushing rain forward in the metagame, with many players in the most recent BW Cup opting to recycle old builds of SMB rain (Genies + Sub Lefties Metagross + Breloom), double Grass rain, or tried and true Whitewater. Seeing only around a 50% winrate overall, it also saw consistently less usage the later the rounds became. Rain isn't bad or anything, but the counterplay available with traditional good BW Pokemon, when combined with experience fighting those same teams multiple times, leads me to rate rain less favorably.

The Rise of Sand teams
:bw/excadrill:
Most BW players will agree that Thundurus is one of the best, if not the best mon in the tier. Excadrill has always been floated as a solid option to check Thundurus, being Thunder Wave immune itself. Other metagame trends, such as Metagross's rise in popularity, have been favorable for Excadrill; Excadrill can destroy it with a Life Orb-boosted Earthquake and takes little in return. Heatran's popularity has gone down too, the traditional Substitute Leftovers set splitting for usage with Shuca Berry to combat non-STAB Ground-type attacks. But Excadrill likes Shuca Berry a lot more, since its Earthquake is still able to KO reliably after Stealth Rock and can avoid situations where Heatran with a Sub actually threatens Excadrill. Sand cores see additional modifications with the addition of Thunder Wave Cresselia, which gives Tyranitar Speed control without making it awkward for Excadrill; Cresselia sometimes even goes so far on these teams as to run Timid Nature to outpace Adamant Landorus-T. Cresselia dealing heavy damage to the two major Intimidate Pokemon in the tier, Landorus-T and Hitmontop, gives a natural fit on these teams.

Thundurus
:bw/thundurus:
Thundurus's new tool Sky Drop initially captivated my interest quite a lot; one combo I really liked was to EV Thundurus faster than Adamant Landorus-T to combo things like Sky Drop -> rocks and then drop down the target -> U-turn (like against Cresselia). Doing it this way also let you run HP Ice to snipe some Lando; recall that most Landorus-T should be running Adamant for the Stone Edge roll on Thundurus. However, I think that Sky Drop's utility, while cool, is a real moveset cost in a lot of matchups. You always have Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave, and picking just 2 of Thunder Wave / Taunt / HP Ice / Protect was hard enough as it is. I think it's fairly telling that Memoric's physical Thundurus set listed above has Sky Drop merely as an option, where it might seem more natural with the investment given to Thundurus's attack.

General trends and thoughts
  • KyleCole's revival of bulky Conkeldurr has been very interesting to me; drawing on inspiration from Arash Ommati's 2013 Worlds team, a bulky Sitrus Berry set with Drain Punch can let Conkeldurr destroy certain Genie/Heatran builds that would ordinarily rely on it chipping itself with Life Orb recoil.
  • Jellicent is not going anywhere, but the metagame has adjusted well to it. Gone are the days where you can kill one Pokemon and have Jellicent Recover stall the rest. Jellicent sometimes needs to offer more than just the ability to set Trick Room and burn things.
  • Choice Scarf Dragon-types are super cool and super good. Scarf cube and Scarf Latios both can outspeed Landorus-T for a crucial Ice Beam KO and can Draco Meteor other faster Dragon-types. While they aren't fast enough to outpace Kingdra, they serve as solid revenge killers for a great chunk of the metagame, while offering ambiguity if comparing against a more traditional Choice Band cube or Dragon Gem Latios set.
  • Latios's reclaiming of Hidden Power has really let it rise to dominance. Hidden Power Ground Latios is what's caused most Heatran to retreat from their old Substitute habits, as a Pokemon they used to wall now cleanly 2HKOs it and takes little from Heat Wave to boot. Tailwind is still a great slash for Speed control; you can even drop Psychic if you're content Dracoing the things Psychic would ordinarily hit.
A couple newer teams

The first sample team currently offered in BW (the Latios Landorus-T Sub Metagross balance team) was by far one of my favorite BW teams, and I don't think I've ever really quite found a suitable replacement that feels as dominant while respecting current metagame trends. I think it's telling that during Classic, instead of picking one of my own builds vs umbry, I rolled up with SMB rain! Still, here's a couple teams I've been enjoying as of late:

:landorus-therian: / :thundurus: / :kyurem-black: / :metagross: / :jellicent: / :latios:

In a shocking turn of events, a team that contains 5/6 of the previously mentioned team I liked transferred well to another team I liked! marilli's usage of Earthquake Metagross really appealed to me; Metagross has decent enough attack where EQ chip matters on a ton of Pokemon, and you can easily turn from losing to Heatran to beating it with the right plays. The logic is comparable to the transition of Hidden Power Ground on Latios.

:latios: / :landorus-therian: / :hitmontop: / :gothitelle: / :suicune: / :heatran:

Similar to this bulky team originally built by marilli. Swaps Chansey for a Scarf Trick Latios to lock down support Pokemon and enable a Suicune setup. I like leading Latios + Landorus-T to have the option of Scarf Trick + U-turn into Gothitelle, or to potentially catch a Scarf cube by surprise. Latios can be given additional Speed to actually outpace all Scarf cubes if that's something that concerns you (it currently just outpaces neutral Nature Scarf Genesect).
 

Biosci

Danger!?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnuswon the 3rd Smogon VGC Tournamentis a Past SCL Champion
Now that my DPL and a few other's seasons are over, I'm gonna go ahead and do a team dump from what I used for the 5 weeks of DPL. Was a really fun season with the Squirtles, but sadly wasn't in the cards for playoffs this season.

Week 1: vs Crunchman

https://pokepast.es/f8a2630fe15a2609

Crunch wasn't as versed in BW so I didn't have much of an idea what to expect here as far as what he might bring. From the few replays I saw he had, Volcarona felt like a decent enough bring especially looking at the fact that I hadn't brought Volcarona to a tournament game for a long while. This ended up bring the final build Memo and I slapped together. I probably regret the Detect on Scarfty instead of Taunt, but other that I stand by the team choices here pretty well. Rotom-W just felt like the correct choice since I didn't want to stack too many weaknesses and wanted a decent option for the possible Rain match up. The team was admittedly pretty weak to Skymin, but I also didn't imagine that was gonna be a Pokemon on the radar of a less experienced BW player. Team felt fine for the player match up, but definitely not one of our stronger builds imo

The game felt pretty favorable as long I managed to maintain health on Rotom-W to help check the Suicune. Getting the burn on the Lando-T also helped neutralize it pretty well for me, especially with it being one of his main ways of dealing damage outside of residual damage dealt from Suicune and Chansey. 1-0

Week 2: 1649727127890.png1649727147445.png vs Human

https://pokepast.es/e7fdba091937ed52

Again Enosh I wasn't too sure what to bring except that I wanted a bulky Water with Toxic. We toyed around with Gastrodon builds, but I never found something I was satisfied with so we built and ended up with what he had. Team was pretty standard outside of HH Latios and Sub for Excadrill.

The game was pretty straightforward after I was kind of ballsy turn 1 with going for Stealth Rocks and Sub in the face of his Excadrill, but I knew worst case scenario here was him getting his attack of breaking my sub but Stealth Rocks felt they were gonna take me a long way this game with the passive damage in tandem with the rest of the team dishing out damage. From the turn 1 play I felt in the driver seat the rest of the game. The 2 misses on Thundurus and burn on the Sub Kyu-B kind of cemented things up and just let me out value the rest of his team. 2-0

Week 3: vs Checkmater

https://pokepast.es/fb54bcb317640fa7

Check always felt like he favored more balance tempo styled teams so I wanted to build a strong offensive 6 that could help break things apart before getting out of hand. I knew I wanted to try busting out Specs Gothitelle here not only as a potential surprise factor, but I felt it could be potentially strong against Chansey and Ferrothorn which had seemed to be rising a bit in popularity. The initial build of the team had Fighting Gem Terrakion over Band Kyu-B, but we kind of just decided it was ultimately a win more Pokemon as it only stacked strengths of the current team instead of diversifying win conditions.

The match up ending up being incredibly favorable, being especially happy to see that Ferrothorn knowing I could snipe it off with Gothitelle. But the way the game ended up playing out, Scizor was just way too much to handle as it honestly felt it wasn't accounted for in building at all. After the lead and letting myself get so much advantage with Swords Dance, I'm really not sure how much better Check could've played this game. Was just a really favorable match up. 3-0

Week 4: 1649728009455.png1649728031466.png1649728074849.png vs DaWoblefet

https://pokepast.es/4944194af73f209d

I knew I wanted to bring something different vs Wob this DPL, and thankfully this is where having Memoric around was gonna help me a lot. I said something about wanting to bring Conkeldurr TR this week, and I was basically pasted this team. I did make a few changes, but I felt pretty good with this balls to the walls style TR for the week.

The team ended up being a great choice in team preview, but looking back on the initial TR turns I had I'm really not happy with how loose I played with letting my Pokemon get whittled down in health. Ended up still playing it down to a close end game that just ended things with a crucial Heat Wave miss that prevented the 2v1 scenario I wanted, but I'd still chalk this one up to sloppy play I think. 3-1

Week 5: 1649728130399.png1649728196067.png1649728207312.png1649728229175.png1649728237109.png vs Frania

https://pokepast.es/ba8b8aab20778bc3

This was definitely not the team I was gonna go with initially, but I didn't have a ton of time to prep this week. Ended up loading up with a team that Sam threw together in a past DPL on the Church that I hadn't used before. Team felt solid enough, and let me possibly catch Frania the same way I tried to get Check but never got the chance to. Zapdos was definitely a risky choice, but the sponginess of the Pokemon just made it more appealing over something like Thundurus or Rotom-W.

Loading into the game, the team felt like a fine choice if I could manage to get the Metagross out of the way early. Lando-T was kind of hurting my chances to do it with Excadrill or Tyranitar, so I wanted to try for as aggressive of a lead as possibly. As long as there wasn't an Occa Berry in my way, I felt really good with getting Metagross out of the way barring a critical hit on Latios. Seeing no Protect, Metagross got cleared off the field from the double attack and the game felt really great after that turn. I traded Spore with my Amoonguss, but he ended being Lum so I was in an awkward spot until I saw the Spore was put into my own Amoonguss. Wasn't a huge deal to me, but after some positioning Amoonguss ended up getting a 1 turn wake as well which just ended up cementing my position to win the game. 4-1


Overall happy with how the season went and hope more people can give BW a try instead of just spamming Mono-Dragon or white water when put in the position to play. I definitely tried to be as varied as possible in team choices to make sure I wasn't falling into abusable habits like I tend to build into, but this style definitely doesn't always thrive in non-team tour environments. Some of these teams are likely still fine choices for average tournament play, but do keep in mind some of these comps were built with specific builds and styles in mind. Thanks for your time reading and I hope you learned something from all this!

Shoutouts to Squirtles, and specifically Memoric for believing in me and drafting me this year. Was definitely a fun time building and conversing with all of you. Replays can all be found in this thread here linked in the sprites (Yoda edit)
 
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Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
Had a good time playing for DPL and figured I'd also post my thoughts in the thread. I ended up having (as forewarned) less time due to things opening back up but I still managed a good number of team iterations (every team was original!) and test matches most weeks. Special thanks to people who spent time to test with me, including shaian, sunrose, yoda2798, JRL, qsns, kylecole, DaWob, Crunchman, and many others. Of course thanks for drafting me, maybe I will be back next year !

Before I talk about the weeks, here are some sets and cores I feel are interesting or useful

:bw/thundurus:
Thundurus (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
This is actually a set I used last DPL. When using Thundurus as part of a defensive component, Volt Switch gives you a lot of potential momentum especially on early turns. There are a lot of contexts/leads where it's obvious the opposing landot is going to U-turn, and this can give you some serious momentum. It can make lategames and the matchup vs Stealth Rocks tougher, but I run Volt about 60% of the time these days.

:bw/conkeldurr: :bw/scizor:
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 140 HP / 248 Atk / 116 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Wide Guard

Scizor @ Steel Gem
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Swords Dance
- Protect

I'm partially not very good at using hitmontop and also partially don't like it as much, but I do like this Scizor+Conkeldurr core. Having double-priority is really nice and also I think the only way I could find to make HO really work. I used this core twice - once in week 2 and once in week 4 - big fan overall. Scizor compliments Conk by strongly threatening stuff like Latios/Torn. Obviously be conscious of intimidate.


:bw/chansey:
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Pulse
- Heal Bell

Heal bell chansey I feel is quite useful. One can run a lot more speed just for faster heal pulse and heal bell if you like, since there are a good number of midrange threats in the speed bracket 136-218 and the HP isn't so important since you already have a lot of it. Having status clearing is super mainly against Thundurus since it lets you play more agressively with things like Kingdra/Latios. It's also nice against toxic and for substitute partners, as some teams' plans against Kyube/Heatran/Metagross is to status it and fight its partner. Also nice interactions with Rest :)

:bw/shaymin-sky:
Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Healing Wish
- Protect

Similar philosophy as Pulse+Bell Chansey, believe it or not. For a number of bulky threats like Kyube/Tran/Metagross/Ttar if it goes to 40% or below (esp if statused) people will dismiss it in their game plan, so bringing it back can be quite nice.

Onto the weeks!
Week 1 vs DaWoblefet
:cresselia: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :heatran: :kyurem-black: :shaymin-sky:
Going into this week I was rather nervous as DaWob is ofc a strong opponent and I'd been out of the doubles tournaments scene for a good while. The idea behind this team was to utilize Twave + Substitute, a combination that [redacted] talked about in XY for a team with Heatran. It also has the Shaymin-Sky set I mentioned above. As far as the week went, I didn't realize that the team was an importable in the thread (even though Yoda had posted it before) and completely didn't see scarf Thund coming. That + I also thought it was HP Ice when it was HP Flying. Sunny Day + knowing I was Sunny Day, and also knowing I was Tbolt when I think DaWob probably expected Volt Switch almost managed to bring it back but ultimately making risky plays turn after another caught me with an EPower on my Heatran.

Week 2 vs Crunchman
:kyurem-black: :conkeldurr: :scizor: :thundurus: :chansey: :landorus-therian:
I practiced with Crunchman a lot before DPL started and always had a good mileage out of more bulky teams/substitute wincons vs him. This one started out with a Kyube+Chansey core which compliment each other nicely, but then became more HO. With Memoric's Thundurus set to snipe Latios, I ended up being pretty happy with this team. Not much to say about the replay other than Chansey OP, and Thundurus gave a ton of mileage.

Week 3 vs Biosci
:landorus-therian: :chansey: :gothitelle: :cresselia: :ferrothorn: :latios:
I was feeling good off the Chansey from last week and went through a ton of iterations of tricktrapping teams, with variants of Cune, Cresselia, Ferrothorn. I actually really liked this and another team that I had, but ultimately decided on this team since it did better in testing. Yoda actually brought Biosci's exact 6 to test vs me, and it also had perish song on the Politoed which made the matchup basically impossible combined with Goth dodging trapping. While we were testing I was doing amazing against every other team other than that one, so I just figured I wouldn't see it and the team would go fine - imagine my reaction when I loaded into my match. Basically the rain lead is way too brutal unless I led what I did, which got abused by Scizor+Amoonguss. Turns out Biosci's sets were different, so maybe it was winnable, if by a long shot. Sad to lose my inexplicably long streak of beating Biosci in tournaments (I think 4 or 5 now??) but oh well.

Week 4 vs Frania
:marowak: :politoed: :kingdra: :scizor: :conkeldurr: :shaymin-sky:
This team started out as a Raichu rain team (inspired by shay) and was helped into some bulkier and more defensive by JRL. JRL wanted to put hitmontop and amoonguss, but I felt more comfortable using conk and shaymin-sky. This week I was actually in Israel and played on my phone so I didn't have that much time to test but I managed to fit in one or two test matches vs Crunchman which made me feel Shaymin-Sky was better. For the game itself the Kyube flinch + some Hydro hits ended up being quite nice, though I think only the first 2 or 3 Hydros were really crucial. I thought Scizor sweeping was a shoe-in on turn 2 but HP Fire gave me a run for my money. Knowing I was specs (and Frania ofc not knowing) really saved me for the turn 2/3 sequence.

Week 5 vs Human
:conkeldurr: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :kyurem-black: :metagross: :gastrodon:
I really wanted to run some like Choice band Explosion Trick Azelf squad for this week but it really wasn't working very well and I ended up sticking with something standard. This was one of the first teams I built in March before DPL with 3 sitrus berries and lots of absorption of hits. The Kyube set I changed via JRL's suggestion - I never liked Dragon Claw Scarf-Kyube anyways. As far as the game itself I think I'd seen the team somewhere before, but wasn't really sure. I still don't know if it was scarf or sash Mamoswine, but being scarf myself helped the turn 1 predictions and paralyzing his Tornadus was really valuable. Then it was just a matter of sleep-sacking into using sub Metagross and dancing around Hydreigon. Crit U-turn was lucky but truthfully I think I still had it - you can be the judge if you like.

All in all a fun DPL and had a good run! As a parting note I will say that you should always run as *little* speed as you can get away with on your scarf LandoT so you can scout opposing scarf LandoT while hiding your own.
 
DPL was an amazing experience. Thank you Tenzai for giving me the opportunity to play against some of the best players around.
It sucks that we couldn't pull out the win but that gives me more motivation to strengthen my game and do better next year!
Here are the teams I used in BW for DPL!

W4 vs Human
:bw/bisharp: :bw/deoxys-attack: :bw/volcarona: :bw/kingdra: :bw/thundurus: :bw/conkeldurr:
I didn't know what I wanted to use vs enosh but deosharp was something that got brought up during w1 so I decided to use it myself.
The rest of the mons were brought to deal with amoon (thundy+volcarona) and goth rain (timid kingdra+bisharp) since enosh loves using that archetype. Originally, I had a support set on volcarona but after a lot of test games with yobuddy and crunch, the set felt underwhelming on this team so I ended up changing it to qd with stabs. Conk was mostly filler but it rounded up the team nicely to deal with genies+kyube.
My team probably looked whack to a lot of players but I didn't want all the effort I put into prepping to go to waste so I decided to bring it and it ended up working out! The team is a lot of fun to use but its definitely a glass cannon lmao

W5 vs DaWoblefet
:bw/politoed: :bw/kingdra: :bw/landorus-therian: :bw/hydreigon: :bw/cresselia: :bw/conkeldurr:
Mr. Mish... I was really looking forward to playing against wob. He was undefeated and I was the underdog so I had to prove myself to make a name for myself in bw. I spent several nights analyzing his replays and scouting his teams movesets and items but I couldn't build a team I was satisfied with. It was only my 2nd week playing bw so wob didn't have much info on me and thats when I decided that bringing kingdra again might work. Yobuddy, Crunch, and Nido helped me out a lot to finish out the rest of the team and I was really happy with the outcome. When it came time to playing vs wob, I was not excited because it was a team that liked to para stuff and flinch them to death. smb had used this team vs umbry in classic and wob also used it vs human w3 so I made sure I did my best to play around it. In the end, I couldn't pull out the win but I wasn't upset with my performance. I held my own vs him and it made me realize that wob isn't Ezrael or emforbes. I can definitely get the win against him if we played again.

Semifinals vs Frania
:bw/conkeldurr: :bw/jellicent: :bw/amoonguss: :bw/landorus-therian: :bw/heatran: :bw/hydreigon:
I hate to admit it but Frania is someone I always struggled against. There were a lot of good ideas that got brought up in the team chat to use vs Fran but I ended up deciding to stay in my comfort zone. This backfired in my game and it showed. I felt pretty comfortable using the team in test games but it was really weak to conkeldurr. I knew this too but I didn't do anything about it. Frania exposed me in teambuilding and it honestly sucked. It threw off my confidence in bw and I was questioning whether I was the best option to slot in bw for the lands. Deep down, I always knew nido was our best bw player but he was going to be busy for most of dpl. I had to step up and relieve the stress for my manager and teammates but I failed. I'm sorry i let you guys down.


Finals vs DaWoblefet
:bw/shaymin-sky: :bw/tyranitar: :bw/excadrill: :bw/latios: :bw/thundurus: :bw/cresselia:
I finally get my rematch vs wob. I wanted to play against him so bad because I knew I could pull out the win this time. My team was a mess a couple of days before my game and if it weren't for yobuddy, actuarily, and umbry, no way in hell tiebreakers would've been possible. After my game with fran, I knew I had to do something about my weakness to conk. I wanted to use sand so the original core was skymin/ttar/exca/latios/thundy-therian. After a couple of test games though, actuarily suggested cress and thundy-incarnate to round out the team. It wasn't what I intended but my team turned out to be similar to smbs sand team. Like I mentioned before, I cant make the same mistake again of being weak to conk. The team ended up having 2 psychic types and 2 flying types to deal with with it. Fast forward to gameday and I couldn't fall asleep. I was posting in our team server from 12am-9am gmt-7 with only 2.5 hours left to go until the game started. I overslept and wasn't around to play so nido stepped in for us and he got the win. Ty nido. I cant thank you enough.

After all this, I realized I still have a lot to learn. I've been playing for 3.5 years now and it still isn't enough. I have to keep pushing myself and continue practicing so I don't get left behind. Its a lot of work but I do it because I love playing this game. Thank you again tenzai! You were the only manager that took a chance on me and believed in me. You don't realize how much that means to me and just know that I'll always be here for you as a friend! Thank you to all my teammates as well! ty so much. ty ty ty! I'm so grateful for this experience and you guys made it worthwhile :) I really wish we could've won it together but just know that I'll be looking forward to the day we team up again in the future!
 

Idyll

xD
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
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Hello, DOU Community!!! This is the 2nd entry of DPL Oldgens Tech of the Week!!!!!!!!!! A (supposedly) weekly segment where I talk about something very epic I noticed within the Oldgens scene, discussing its place in the team it's used and how it makes fits within the context of a broader meta. For (what was supposed to be dedicated to) DPL IX Week 2, we'll be talking about something that has somehow transcended generations:

:bw/genesect:
Choice Band Genesect
Revealed Moves:
Iron Head / U-turn / Extreme Speed
Week 1:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-1820047633
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-678943

Week 2:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-1824796791
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5doublesou-681878
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6doublesou-681759
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1824604135

Week 3:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-1829315642
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-1829918558-pdo6f9hqyfnl6q1b11jzhrs8m45m96npw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1829737305-5piyybr7mrta2ltayhnri9oncedn3fepw

Why CB Gene?


In looking at why a particular set is being used in a metagame, it's of course important to look at what the Pokemon itself offers. Genesect's basic niche is already familiar to most; it excels at dealing significant incidental damage and maintaining momentum for its team with its combination of Download, U-turn, and a wide array of coverage moves that lets it have super effective coverage on whatever its user wants. In SS, Genesect's niche is a bit more expanded; it sees use as a Shift Gear sweeper, taking advantage of an actually nifty defensive typing and newly found recovery in Leech Life, as well as a demonic attacker with Choice Band, turning its U-turn into a devastating hit in its own right. Here, we see this SS CB concept extrapolated to oldgens; the question here is: why?

To be fair, this isn't the first time that CB Gene (CBG) was used in Oldgens, but it's been used so rarely that it is likely fair to attribute this sudden surge to its popularity in SS, much like how SM served as the catalyst for the increased popularity of XY Seismic Toss Mega Kangaskhan. As to what the general motivation for this development was, it's also really simple: strong U-turn make player go monke mode ooh ooh ah ah. The ability to deal significant damage off a pivot move has universal appeal; however, what makes CBG additionally appealing for BW + XY and for SM are actually quite different!

The common denominator for CBG's relevance in BWXY is Prankster Thundurus, a prominent threat in both formats as it boasts many key meta matchups as well as undeniable utility in Prankster Thunder Wave. Thundurus in both formats often heavily invest in Special Defense because of the threats it often needs to match (The mirror, rain, Volcanion and MGar in XY, Latios and Jellicent in BW), which leaves it often with little in Defense investment. This is an important detail as a big draw of CBG in these formats is its ability to beat Prankster Thunder Wave with Extreme Speed; after dealing a good amount of damage in beforehand, CBG can deny Thundurus from getting a Thunder Wave off as demonstrated by Akaru Kokuyo. Of course, Extreme Speed is also handy for other matchups, particularly for also dealing with rain in both formats as well as for beating threats through redirection (as shown by Zee, with help from HH MKang), but beating Thundurus is where the appeal lies.

In contrast, SM is a much slower format, and Thundurus is quite irrelevant there as well. However, instead of being used to pick off specific threats, CBG's usefulness in Gen VII comes in how its ability to deal significant chip is fully maximized, due to the format favoring a slower approach with pivoting and punishing switches with Stealth Rocks compared to BWXY. GenOne's performance shows us this, prioritizing SR Turn 1, with the idea that they can use CBG along with Tapu Koko and Gothitelle to punish switches and isolate threats as appropriate. This genuinely doesn't seem as impactful compared to its presence in BWXY, hence the meager one appearance, but it definitely is something that one can viably work with in the format, with consideration of how Genesect threatens multiple sets off preview and the novelty can perhaps be something to take advantage of in a best-of-1 format.

Its moveset does not need much said about. U-turn and Extreme Speed, as mentioned, make up most of its niche. Iron Head is there mostly to have a STAB attack that doesn't also force it out; this isn't really that useful in BW, where a lot of threats are resistant to Steel, but this comes in quite handy in XY and SM for beating Sylveon, Tapu Fini, and Diancie. As for other moves it could run, an easily identifiable one is Explosion; being able to force significant damage, if not kills on both foes is quite significant, and both XY and SM feature prominent Ghost-types it can Explode next to in Jellicent and Mega Gengar (Exploding next to Mega Gengar is also a free switch to something that takes advantage of the trappng). It could also run Ice Beam, because beating Landorus-T is also quite universal within the Oldgens, but it often is not as useful, impactful, or necessary. Really, it could only really run these two moves for the final slot, with Blaze Kick being extremely fringe if not unviable because it doesn't really hit anything for anything.

A hazard setter is nice to have as mentioned. This usually comes easy enough in SM, but Stealth Rock can be harder to come by and XY and BW. In XY, Landorus-T is the only reliable SR setter, and teams constantly rely a lot on Landorus-T's ability to answer threats that setting SR, if not just fitting it onto its moveset at all, can be a challenge. BW, meanwhile, has a particular speed and dynamism that makes setting SR quite difficult to do, as most of the time an attack to deal significant chip is preferred over incremental value of SR; SR also only has Landorus-T as a setter and it would typically be a suicide lead if doing so, as it requires a Focus Sash to take the metagame's heftiest hits, with the only other passable setter in Tyranitar needing its HP and presence on the field to be spent actually checking threats and not doing nothing. SR can help CBG a lot in doing what it does, but it can be a tough ask getting them; nevertheless, CBG does its job just fine as a pivot attacker, so don't make the mistake of thinking SR is required for it to work.

Future Meta Implications?

Now, it's time to consider... would this actually continue to be used? My verdict: I really doubt it.

It's already seen no further use in SM; I expected this as it's CBG's weakest format by far, due to: a) Tapu Koko already being here, which makes the strong pivot role sort of unnecessary; b) the presence of WIFAM, which makes a lot of stuff tough to kill; and c) the significant presence of both Incineroar and Landorus-T, two Intimidators that make CBG do its job worse. Unlike SS, there's also no threat like Rillaboom which it just so obviously exploits.

It's seen more use in BW and XY, but I genuinely don't expect it to see more usage. I was genuinely surprise it saw more usage Week 3, but it didn't really do anything impressive. There hasn't really been anything that's changed in these formats that make CBG suddenly good. In BW, it always could beat Thund's Prankster, but Genesect also has such a bland defensive profile in a format that has strict defensive requirements. It also has a losing matchup into a bunch of BW's top threats, such as Heatran and Jellicent, and being dependent on ESpeed (a non-STAB Normal-type move) is definitely exploitable. XY, meanwhile, is still defensive as ever, and there hasn't really been a rising threat that CBG is uniquely equipped to handle. Landorus-T is still always there to just Intim it, and Volcanion is naturally physically bulky.

Really, to me, CBG seems to be a flavor of the month pick. Genuinely, I think it sucks lmao! Who really knows, though! We'll see throughout this DPL if CBG is the real deal, or if it's just a flash in the pan. Keep yourself posted for the 3rd edition of Oldgens tech of the week, which should happen this week as well because I don't wanna delay this thing further!!!
 
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Idyll

xD
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
Hello, DOU Community!!! This is the 3rd entry of DPL Oldgens Tech of the Week!!!!!!!!!! A (supposedly) weekly segment where I talk about something very epic I noticed within the Oldgens scene, discussing its place in the team it's used and how it makes fits within the context of a broader meta. For the entry dedicated to DPL IX Week 3, we are going to talk about one of BW's particularly anti-meta picks:
:bw/Thundurus-Therian:
Thundurus-Therian
Revealed Moves:
Thunderbolt / Thunder / Hidden Power Flying / Substitute / Protect / Volt Switch
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-1824796791- DaWoblefet, vs Memoric (Week 2)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-1829760938 - Lunar, vs DaWoblefet (Week 3)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-1829315642 - DaAwesomeDude1, vs Mishimono (Week 3)

Why BW Thundurus-T?

"Wait Mx. Moric! You already wrote about Thundurus-T in Week 1!!! Did you forgor or are you stupid?" Well, dear reader, I do firmly assure you that the former is not the case. Thundurus(-Therian) is also NOT my favorite Pokemon, and I'd be offended at the mere thought. Rather, the reason I'm writing about this Pokemon again is because it has a niche in BW that is both interesting and is quite different from its relatively much smaller niche in XY; while its sole appearance in XY is for it having a very specific blend of offensive and defensive utility, its repeated appearances in BW, not only during DPL but throughout the history of BW DOU play, is based on its ability to function as the format's most viable tech to Thundurus-I and, specifically, its Electric-type moves.

The fact to realize here is that, unlike in XY, BW DOU's Electric-types can still get paralyzed. With BW DOU being a high octane metagame rife with strong attacks like Latios Dragon Gem Draco Meteor, Kingdra Water Gem Hydro Pump, and CBKB Outrage, getting a Speed advantage can be the name of the game. Thundurus-I is one of the format's best Pokemon not only because of how it can double as an offensive threat and as a utility threat, but also due to how difficult it is to play around Thunder Wave. Due to the limited amount of Pokemon that can reliably take a Thunder Wave—Ground-types, which in the metagame is essentially being just Landorus-T and Excadrill—Thundurus-I can almost always cripple at least one. This makes Thundurus-I quite infuriating to deal with, as not only can it easily provide a Speed advantage, but also the ability to just spam Thunder Wave and make any Pokemon possibly lose a turn is quite powerful in a dynamic format such as BW DOU, where games definitely go the fastest relative to other DOU formats.

This is where Thundurus-T fits in. Thanks to its ability in Volt Absorb, it can take a Thunder Wave without getting paralyzed. This makes it one of the best techs to Thundurus-I, as it's a strong offensive threat that Thundurus just can't cripple outright. Thundurus-T has a repuation of being a "ListMons Killer" piece, with "The List" essentially being a set of good BW Pokemon that teams essentially default into having. Thundurus-T stands as being particularly good into Thundurus, Jellicent, Metagross, Hitmontop, and possibly Amoonguss and Landorus-T as well depending on how the particular Thundurus-T is built. Thundurus-T's fit in the BW DOU metagame, then, is as a Thundurus-I hate pick that also has good matchups into many common BW DOU threats.

Still, it's important to realize that Thundurus-T isn't a foolproof answer to all Thundurus-I. Offensive Thundurus-I variants can still smack Thundurus-T with a Hidden Power Ice, possibly Life Orb-boosted. However, it can be relatively easy to know if a team has offensive Thundurus-I, anyway; typically, it only really sees use in rain teams, and they also have a tendency to run Hidden Power Flying instead to hit Amoonguss (remember, BW DOU Hidden Powers are 70 Base Power).

The way Thundurus-T are built in BW DOU have actually tended to be a mix of bulk and power. They have a tendency to shed some Speed a bit, only opting to outrun some slower threats in the base 80-95 Speed range such as Adamant Landorus-T; this makes sense are there is essentially no base 100 Speed threat in BW DOU outside of Volcarona, which is already quite uncommon, with the common threats by those ranges in Landorus-T and Kyurem-B tending to run offense-boosting natures. For example, the ListMons Killer team by Stratos runs Modest and doesn't fully invest in Speed and Special Attack in order to get some Special Defense EVs. We've also seen DaWoblefet's Thundurus-T get outrun by a Landorus-T, and from this interaction I can only sensibly guess that Memoric's Landorus-T was Jolly. Still, Thundurus-T is still an offensively statted Pokemon, and keeping high investment in Speed can prove useful in certain scenarios; we've seen this in how Dad1's Thundurus-T outran Mishimono's Hydreigon, getting the Volt Switch off before it gets smashed by a Draco Meteor (unless, of course, this was also just the world's slowest Hydreigon, which is unlikely).

Thundurus-T's sets throughout time have been somewhat predictable, often just staying within the realm of Thunderbolt / Thunder, Volt Switch, Protect, and a Hidden Power of choice that has tended to be Flying more often than not. The default Electric-type STAB move is important for Thundurus-T to actually hit opposing Thundurus-I without being forced to switch out, while HP Flying is really nice for smashing Hitmontop and Amoonguss. Volt Switch is there as a strong attack for chip damage and positioning, which can really come in handy for breaking down stuff such as Cresselia and Heatran while maintaining board positioning due to Thundurus-T's inherently high Special Attack. Thundurus-T's items have also tended to be Gems, either Electric or Flying to get a kill threshold on opposing Thundurus-I or Amoonguss.

Lunar's Substitute set is actually quite the anomaly; Substitute theoretically lets it be a difficult-to-remove threat on the field that can spread damage around a la Heatran. Thundurus setting up Subs isn't exactly novel as Thundurus-I has been seen to run Substitute while it's spreading around TWaves, but running Substitute over Volt Switch on Thundurus-T in particular doesn't really support its niche of being a defensive answer to a specific threat, instead making it the main attacking piece—a role in which Thundurus-T could feel quite lacking, and it showed in how Lunar's Thundurus-T quickly fell after dishing out just one desparing HP Flying. Thunder / Flying coverage feels better when you're picking your engagements, especially with how reliant HP Flying is on super effective coverage to be lethal, and it can be otherwise quite sad against threats that Thunderbolt can't actually make a difference against.

In terms of team fit, Thundurus-T teams have tended to be on the offensive side—remember, picking Thundurus-T in the builder is a defensively motivated choice to specifically deal with Thundurus-I. Thundurus-T's job is to soak the Thunder Wave while also dealing significant damage to break down the opposing team, which its team's actual main attackers will appreciate. This point is particularly illustrated by how two of its appearances were in rain teams to support Kingdra; not only is Thundurus-T supposed to match Thundurus-I in the matchup, but it can also threaten Jellicent, which is a menace to any rain team around. Thundurus-T teams also tend to look for Water-resistances; if a team is actively opting not to run Thundurus-I, with the specially defensive utility set being quite the answer to rain teams, then of course such a team would need to be capable of withstanding strong Water-type attacks. All three teams featured Amoonguss / Ferrothorn, as well as their own individual ways of matching the rain matchup—DaWoblefet ran Focus Sash Deoxys-A and a strong priority attacker in Bisharp; Lunar. ran Cresselia; and Dad1 ran, of all things, Haban Berry Latias. Both Lunar. and Dad1 also had rain teams of their own, and if not with Politoed then they could very well match the rain mirror matchup with a Timid Kingdra.

A Place in the Meta?

To sum, Thundurus-T has an interesting place in the BW DOU metagame for its ability to match Thundurus-I, as it has the ability to soak a Thunder Wave in a metagame where options that can do so are quite limited. Will this niche give Thundurus-T a lasting place in the metagame? For sure, because it always was on the map to begin with. Its appearances are not really a new development, but rather an indication of how this particular DPL's BW DOU players are approaching their matchups. Thundurus-T has always had a standing history in BW DOU for its particular stated niche, and while the niche may be small, it will likely continue to give an impression on prospective BW DOU players, for this DPL and perhaps in future tournaments as well.
 

Idyll

xD
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dpl ix team dump!!

triple posting!!! i played bw dou in DPL IX and went 3-0. it was fun. my week 7 performance specifically i felt was really good so it has a longer writeup. here are my teams

Week 1 - vs tenzai (Lands) // things with wings
:tyranitar::heatran::conkeldurr::jellicent::latios::landorus-therian:

This was my first game of the season so I wanted to keep it nice and simple. I knew I was better than my opponent, so all I really had to do was show up with something solid as a rock and then just play it by ear. Thus, I ended up with a simple bog-standard six for Sand SemiRoom; primarily choosing Tyranitar to be a solid answer to a lot of things and rain, Jellicent because it's thanos, and Heatran because it compliments the two fairly well with great spread damage and the ability to hit Metagross, Amoonguss, and Ferrothorn super effectively. Latios and Conkeldurr are there for being pieces that aim to press the attack, having great power and coverage between the two of them; Latios's natural Speed and Conkeldurr's strong priority in Mach Punch are key for the team having an offensive advantage on the board. Landorus-T rounds out the team by being Landorus-T; a curious soul would notice that I elected to not run Stealth Rock and instead opt into Protect instead despite running the Focus Sash set, and this because I felt that SR was quite useless in BW and Protect likely bumps up my win percentage by just a bit more, being useful in more realistic scenarios.

The game itself felt went mostly within expectations. Running into double Intimidate + Chansey was somewhat unnerving, as I had to preserve my Conkeldurr until an opportune moment comes for it to match the Chansey, but the two Intimidate users made it difficult to put Chansey into kill thresholds. The early-game was about getting as much damage to Chansey's teammates as possible and force the breakdown of tenzai's defensive backbone. This lead up to the pivotal turn 8—after getting key chip on tenzai's Landorus-T and Hitmontop, I was then poised to take both down in one fell swoop with my Landorus-T's Explosion. With both Intimidate Pokemon out of the way, the remaining 4v4 was easy enough to execute and I went home with a win.

Week 2 - vs DaWoblefet (Storms) // American Beauty/American Psycho
:latios::latias::scrafty::genesect::landorus-therian::rotom-wash:

This time, whether or not I was better than my opponent was... more debatable, let's just say. DaWoblefet has had the reputation of being one of the very best the BW format has to offer, so I knew I had to look for a teambuilding edge. I was giving Landorus-T and Excadrill a good amount of respect, as I knew DaWoblefet would know I don't run much Landorus-T in BW. I was also giving a good amount of respect to Skymin, which DaWoblefet previously identified as being good into me. There was also a good amount of respect given to goodstuffs pieces like Metagross and Tyranitar, and then I was also making sure I was essentially "uncheesable" by something like CM Suicune or Chansey. All of these made me end up with the abomination above. I basically started with double Lati—the line of thinking was: "if Latios is the best Pokemon in the format, why not run two of them?" And two of them I did run, both with offensive sets. At this point, I had to super prep for Jellicent, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Metagross, which is why I ended up with double Intimidate Scrafty and Landorus-T. Genesect was there because it was a good general attacker within the context of the teamcomp + HH CB ESpeed can OHKO Thundurus. SpDef Choice Scarf Rotom-W is there because it's another good answer to a bunch of stuff like Steels and Jellicent, and it can also just Trick a Choice Scarf to whatever it is DaWoblefet is trying to cheese me with.

(Note: The Latios on this team is Psyshock, but Psychic is generally better because it's stronger and it can occasionally matter for Amoognuss. Psyshock here was also just meant to give due respect to CM Suicune, as I didn't feel I lose much by doing so.)

I felt a great sense of despair when I saw the team preview for the game. Bisharp! Why Bisharp!? In retrospect, it completely made sense: my pet teams often involved Jellicent + Tyranitar + Hitmontop / Landorus-T + Latios, and while I did prepare with one threatening Dark-type in Tyranitar relatively well, Bisharp isn't exactly something I can answer with Intimidate Pokemon. Basically, I knew I had to force something really weird and play crazy if I wanted to get out of the Bisharp matchup alive, as the rest of DaWob's team I was relatively okay with. What then followed was what I could only describe as a series of unfortunate events for my opponent. Yeah! If nothing else, this game is a vindication of my decision to keep running Jolly Landorus-Ts. I did get into the position into Bisharp that I wanted, which was to force it to pick one and get traded off by the other, but I didn't exactly get there cleanly. Fortunate game for me all around.

Week 7 - vs Mishimono (Spectral Thieves) // Luxury Disease
:metagross::gastrodon::thundurus::conkeldurr::landorus-therian::cresselia:

Team Discussion

To preface, among the teams I've built, this is the one I'm most proud of as it's probably the best team I've ever built in like 2 years or so. In prep, I recognized Mishimono as someone willing to use literally anything, and if anything the Spectral Thieves braintrust would probably be building around my own tendencies instead. A bit of introspection shows I'm a huge Jellicent / Tyranitar / Heatran abuser, I tend to run Thundurus decent amount of the time, and I've been using Hitmontop less and favoring Landorus-T more. With this in mind, I had a strong hunch that I would run into an Excadrill sand comp, which would be one of the better ways to punish my own tendencies.

Thus, I went with the idea of running a core of Metagross / Gastrodon / Conkeldurr. Metagross, with a Substitute up, can be quite punishing into sand teams, and even more so if I run Earthquake for Excadrill, with the move not as popular as a 2nd move and potentially useful into opposing Metagross and Heatran as well. Gastrodon is one of the better ways to cover Metagross's bad matchups into Heatran, Landorus-T, and Jellicent, and with a physically defensive spread it can capably match Excadrill as well. Conkeldurr is there as another offensive piece that is strong into sand and Heatran, with its Iron Fist LO Mach Punch being really nifty to put pressure on weakened stuff. Thundurus and Offensive Cresselia provide a double Thunder Wave core that also handles a bunch of possibly problematic stuff for the team; while the initial pieces of the team were slow enough that I could reasonably have run Trick Room instead, I felt that Thunder Wave on Cresselia effectively lets me push the same concept without the limited window. The 36 Speed EVs on Conkeldurr is specifically for beating a paralyzed Modest Kingdra in the rain, though they also come up clutch in a Conkeldurr mirror as well. Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave is good as another check to rain and faster threats such as Latios and KB; its Thunderbolt is nifty into Jellicent; and access to Sky Drop was cool for letting me do something funky with Sub Metagross. Meanwhile, the Cresselia marks Conkeldurr, Landorus-T, Scizor, and Ferrothorn with its coverage. The decision to run HP Fire was because I felt Mishimono could run Scizor / Ferrothorn into me, and if I was stealing this team, I would consider changing this to HP Ground for general consistency. The team is then rounded out by Choice Scarf Landorus-T—I was expecting sand anyway and I already have two Ground immunities, so packing a Landorus-T made sense generally, while the Choice Scarf is there to give the team an actual fast attacking piece, with the speed coming in handy on opposing Latios (clueless).

Game Discussion

I did run into an Excadrill Sand team, giving me the exact matchup I prepared for. The game itself went off to a rocky start for me, however, as I got my Landorus-T quickly trapped and sniped down by a Choice Scarf Latios. In all honesty, I did sort-of expect this as it made sense for Mishimono's teamcomp, considering it had a Gothitelle and it was heavily incentivized to take down Landorus-T quickly for TTar / Excadrill. At the same time, I just gaslit myself into thinking they were probably not Choice Scarf Latios anyway as the team already had decent Speed in Sand Rush Excadrill and they know I like to run Focus Sash Landorus-T, which could make the endeavor pointless. Alas! Still, I did feel that I had to lead with Metagross / Landorus-T anyway, as this gave me the safest opening into their teamcomp; Conkeldurr and Cresselia could end up in a bad spot into a Gothitelle lead, while Gastrodon and Thundurus felt too low impact at lead as I felt I needed them to match specific threats later on. Landorus-T and Metagross let me cover everything the best, with Choice Scarf Landorus-T theortically matching all the sand pieces and Latios, and with Metagross seemingly favored into their Latios, Gothitelle, and Conkeldurr (they should respect Zen Headbutt). If my Landorus-T was to go down to a Choice Scarf Latios lead, I would ultimately just let it happen as a Latios being locked into Ice Beam into Metagross was something I could capitalize on.

Capitalize on this was what I did as the first thing I did was Earthquake on an expected Excadrill switch, just right after getting a timely Attack boost from Meteor Mash. I had to Meteor Mash Turn 1 as Landorus-T went down due to needing to respect TrickScarf Gothitelle, because if I Subsitute on a Trick the game was 100% done. While I could have Substitute Turn 2, I decided to go for the more aggressive play of instead Earthquaking immediately, fully expecting Excadrill to be the one coming in that turn; Mishi's Latios switching out was a forced play, and every Pokemon Mishi had other than Excadrill was a losing matchup into Metagross. At the same time, Metagross were not really known to run Earthquake that much (they do sometimes), and I went to Cresselia which theoretically invites Excadrill as well, so I felt that I had the initiative to force the kill immediately. This key play was what put me on the driver's seat after what happened turn 1, as the rest of Mishimono's team outside of Thundurus was not favored into Metagross at all and they essentially had to get a trade involving both Latios and Thundurus to significantly chunk it.

Turn 4 was a pivotal turn for the game as well. I could have Protected Metagross while Cresselia dealt with Mishimono's Thundurus in order to prevent Metagross from getting paralyzed. However, I felt compelled to pin the Tyranitar so I could preserve Cresselia for Mishimono's Conkeldurr. In hindsight, this was possibly unnecessary as Metagross matched Gothitelle and Tyranitar well enough while the rest of my team should have been enough into Mishimono's Conkeldurr. The fact that it was Protect Tyranitar was the worst case scenario for me—I genuinely just didn't put Mishimono on Protect at all as Protect on Tyranitar was rarely run, and getting my Metagross paralyzed while not getting the Tyranitar kill made the game spicier.

We play the sequence out, with me attempting to paralyze Mishimono's Tyranitar so Metagross regains the Speed advantage. However, Tyranitar reveals itself to be Lum Berry, which was unfortunate for my Metagross but not for my plans. With the revelation of Tyranitar as NotChople, I knew then that I could OHKO it with Mach Punch from Conkeldurr later in the game. Regardless of this, all my attacks at this point were aimed at the Gothitelle, aiming to weaken it so I could get a kill on Tyranitar with Conkeldurr while being able to prevent the trade from Gothitelle with what was most likely going to be Thundurus. This sequence then plays out, ending in my favor and letting walk out with a dub in a must-win game for my team.

Bonus Team - Circa-Week 2
:latios::latias::scizor::empoleon::thundurus::landorus-therian:

I have no idea neither.
 

DaAwesomeDude1

waiting for a moment
is a Top Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
DPL IX Teamdump

This is long overdue but here are the 6 teams I used during DPL. I signed up for DPL cause I wanted to play mons again for some godforsaken reason and ended up getting the best regular season BW record as well as making top 8 in BW cup.

I wanted to wait until I got out of BW cup before I posted these, since I was only gonna be rotating between these 6 teams haha. I updated some of the sets for BW cup so I'll include both the original teams and the updated version for completion.

Week 1 - vs Amaranth (W)
:thundurus: :kyurem-black: :bisharp: :cresselia: :jellicent: :landorus-therian:
https://pokepast.es/c80d2e9517e6b45d
https://pokepast.es/58800f72958b52e6 - BW cup version

When we scouted Amaranth's teams, it seems he loved using the Landorus Semiroom sample. He also had pretty high Jellicent usage and his other teams all had an Intimidate user. Since this was my first game back, I figured he would not deviate too much from this structure, so we built around Bisharp. The rest of the team building process wasn't anything spectacular, I just slapped a bunch of generic good mons to round it out. CB Kyub was the strong physical attacker I wanted to use with Bisharp. E-belt Cress was added instead of Latios because I wanted something that hit Fighting-types, Heatran, and Landorus-t hard that I can also use to pivot often. I thought Protect was a decent addition on Cress though because it typically doesn't run Protect, so I could potentially catch a sick double target into that slot (although that didn't really end up happening). For BW cup, I realized after the DPL game that Bisharp didn't outspeed neutral Heatran so I just made it max Speed.

During the game, I was pretty happy to see the team we scouted for. Turn 1 I didn't think he would stay in with Landorus-T, so I opted for chip on Kyurem-B instead. I got lucky the next turn winning (what I think) was a speed tie into the Explosion. In Turn 3, I realized that I was slower than the Heatran but figured he probably expects me to be faster so I went for the hard Night Slash read into the Jellicent that ended up working out. When Thundurus revealed Protect in Turn 5, I knew it likely didn't have HP Ice, so I can ignore it and just spam Earthquakes. From then on, I just had to paralyze the Kyurem-B so that I can outspeed it with my own Kyub / Lando. In Turn 9, I targeted the Thundurus cause Kyub can't touch Jellicent and it would've been a free Conk if I killed Kyub. I knew I could take one Ice Beam but a full-para simplified the endgame for me a lot.

Week 2 - vs Smudge (W)
:conkeldurr: :heatran: :jellicent: :kyurem-black: :thundurus: :landorus-therian:
https://pokepast.es/f1acf9fcae237494

Going in to week 2, I wanted to use sub Heatran because Smudge was newer to BW and I felt that sub Tran puts in major work against newer players. Originally the Kyurem-B was CB but Noelle suggested making it Sub as well for double the annoyance. Then I just rounded it out with generic good mons again. The Conkeldurr is bulky Sitrus cause I don't like LO Conk and I thought I might see a Bisharp, based on Smudge's team scout.

At team preview, I didn't really have a solid plan since there were a ton of stuff that can threaten both Heatran and Kyub from getting a sub up so I went with the old reliable genies lead. Turn 1, I went for a U-turn into Tyranitar risking the potential Scarf Latios but I thought it'd be a fine trade if I got to paralyze it. Plus, if it locked itself in to Ice Beam, it was a free sub for my Heatran. With Thundurus gone, my win-con was going to be set up TR and start clicking Heat Wave, which I was able to do. After TR ended, everything was chipped enough for me to click super effective moves to win.

Week 3 - vs Mishimono (W)
:politoed: :kingdra: :genesect: :amoonguss: :thundurus-therian: :latias:
https://pokepast.es/6c81ea74c83465c7
https://pokepast.es/fbb0db720e78e625 - BW cup version

For week 3, we wanted to switch up the teams since I brought Jellicent balance for two weeks. I ended up building around rain. This is a pretty standard rain team structure of Politoed / Kingdra / Thundurus check / Grass-type / Dragon check / Rain check. I wanted to use CB Gene this week cause I saw it putting in work in a week 2 replay. It also served as my soft rain check with E-Speed and hits all the relevant dragons super-effectively. Sam suggested Latias cause with Healing Wish, it's like having two Kingdras. In practice, I only used it to get a free switch but it was heat so I kept it. For BW cup, I replaced Shadow Claw on Gene for Flamethrower so I don't click x against Ferrothorn. Shadow Claw was only there to snipe Jellicent anyways but there are ways to beat Jelli on this team. Plus, locking yourself in to Shadow Claw is just a momentum killer on this team.

I wasn't sure what Mish was gonna lead with so I went with Genesect + Thundurus-T so I can pivot. Turn 1, I went for a hard Thunder read in to Thundurus. In weather wars, you never want to be down a Pokemon since that limits your ability to pivot so I was pretty confident he was going to protect the Hydreigon to prevent me from getting a free kill. I got the read right and with a lucky high roll, all I had to do was maintain my momentum and I can win. Turn 5 was an example of this when I doubled in to Genesect and Thundurus-t to get Amoonguss and Politoed off the field. From then on, I just had to get Kingdra in under rain to win.

Week 4 - vs Paraplegic (L)
:tyranitar: :excadrill: :latios: :latias: :breloom: :thundurus:
https://pokepast.es/702049123f71ec83
https://pokepast.es/ef9c5f05932bda1d - BW cup version

I didn't know what to expect against Paraplegic so I just went with sand, since I haven't used it yet. I made the Excadrill Leftovers Sub because I thought I would be clicking it more often. Also since sand was brought against me two weeks in a row already, I thought there was no way I'd play a sand mirror (I was wrong). I flip flopped between a ton of Tyranitar sets but ultimately went with standard Chople because it felt the most consistent. Latias was added instead of Cresselia because it accomplishes what Cress does on sand while being much faster. I wanted a more offensive Grass-type that also covered the sand matchup, so I went with Breloom. I opted for Specs HP Fire Latios because Excadrill covers Heatran (barring Substitute) and I wanted strong consistent chip damage to pair with Leftovers Excadrill. Thundurus was the last mon for a soft rain check.
1684197003255.png


For BW cup, I made the Thundurus Substitute and gave Excadrill Life Orb. The reason for the changes is because I thought Substitute was broken (which I touch on briefly later) and Excadrill's whole point is to do damage.

I was pretty shocked when I saw another sand team. I can't remember why I lead Excadrill considering that was my win con and there were like 5 mons that can hit it super effectively. My game plan was chip with Latios and then try and get a sub up with Excadrill. Turn 4, I was caught off guard with the Focus Sash Ttar and almost lost my Breloom. On Turn 6, I switched out Breloom rather than attacking the Ttar because it was my way of revenge killing Excadrill. I was worried about a potential double target in to Excadrill so I opted for Protect rather than Sub. Turn 8 was where Leftovers backfired against me. LO Rock Slide + Draco would've killed Cress at that range but since I was Leftovers, it ended up being a roll instead. In hindsight, I misplayed pretty heavily there. Excadrill behind Sub was my wincon, so I should have played it safe and went for more chip on the Cress instead of risking the roll. With Sub being broken, I thought the game was ultimately gonna come down to an Excadrill speed tie and just went for it. In the last turn of the game, I had the chance to win it if Latios hits through Air Slash + full-para. Miraculously, Latios did hit through but I didn't calc for some reason and clicked HP Fire instead, which never kills Skymin at that range.

Week 5 - vs Lunar (W)
:politoed: :kingdra: :shaymin-sky: :thundurus: :scizor: :landorus-therian:
https://pokepast.es/e76373c3aab972a3

I was struggling pretty hard to build a team I liked for Lunar. Originally, we were going to build full-room since that hasn't been used in DPL yet but I didn't like any of the teams. I went through all of the ideas we had in previous weeks too but again, didn't build anything that I liked. Two days before our scheduled time, I was just like fuck it I'm going to use rain again. I felt comfortable piloting rain in week 3 and I believe that rain is unbeatable if you're aggressive with your reads. I followed the same rain structure in week 3. This time, I opted for Shaymin-Sky as my Grass-type for a more aggressive option. At this point, I was thinking that Substitute might be broken. In particular, I think that sub Skymin is amazing on rain. Kingdra covers for Skymin pretty well by pressuring Ttar, Heatran, Landorus, and Dragons that can deter your sub while Skymin can pressure or get a free sub on common rain checks, like Amoonguss and Jellicent. With how much positioning matters against rain, I felt that I would have a lot of opportunities to either set up a free sub or snowball with Kingdra since there are not a lot of non-weather options that can reliably beat Kingdra and Skymin when they are on the field together. This also forces the opponent to choose which to remove which, oftentimes, lets me weaken things to the point where I can clean with my remaining Pokemon. As a result, I decided to lean fully into HO, so I made the Thundurus offensive. This makes the rain and balance MU a little bit trickier since Thund can be worn down way easier but it's HO so I said fuck it. Scizor was my dragon check and Landorus is there for opposing Thunds. This ended up being my favorite team and the one I was most comfortable with (considering I also used it in every one of my BW cup matches haha).

At team preview, I had a really good matchup so the plan was to get Kingdra in safely and start clicking water attacks. A Seed Flare crit + drop in Turn 3 put Latios in range of Muddy Water which meant I can sub with Skymin. A double Muddy Water miss in Turn 6 made it a little trickier but at that point, Kingdra has done its damage so I just had to chip with Skymin enough for Scizor to clean.

Week 6 - vs Spurrific (W)
:metagross: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :latios: :suicune: :heatran:
https://pokepast.es/d731fa027faef60d

Week 6 was a must-win week if we wanted to keep our slim playoff hopes alive. Against Spurrific, I was also struggling hard to build a team I liked. I knew I wanted to build around Sub Metagross but none of the teams felt good. At this point, I was thinking of just running it back with my week 5 team but after messing around with Metagross more, I finally built something I felt good about. Suicune was a last minute suggestion by Noelle based on Spurrific's scout. I've also used standard stuff up to now so we were hoping to catch him off guard with it. The Jellicent matchup is non-existent so I added random Toxic on Heatran and made Latios Dragon Gem for quick burst damage. Lando and Thund are self explanatory additions.

During the game, Suicune had a great matchup once I removed Jellicent and Thundurus so I lead Latios and Lando hoping to catch one of those two. Turn 3, I over-read and lost my Metagross for free. Turn 4, I actually ended up calcing incorrectly somehow (it said my Shuca Tran always lived Earth Power at that range) but it ended up working out cause I won the speed tie and was able to get rid of the Jellicent. With Jellicent gone and Thundurus heavily chipped, I felt good about my chances of coming back if I can get a sub up with Suicune. Turn 10, I was able to slow down Kyub with T-wave and a crucial Sky Drop in Turn 11 allowed Suicune to set up another sub. At that point, I just had to sack Thund and maintain sub so I can get Latios in for free.

Week 7 - vs eragon (L)
:honchkrow: :blaziken: :thundurus: :jellicent: :rhydon: :metagross:
https://pokepast.es/2a9bfa73417860b8

This team is a mash of some of the heat mons we had on teams at one point during the season but ended up removing when we realized we wanted to win games :l

Overall, I had a great time playing in DPL. Shoutouts to kaori and big pichu for taking a risk on me. Special shoutouts to everyone who responded to my "any gamers itc" for tests especially smudgerox, Level 51, AIRedzone, and Nido-Rus. Not gonna tag all of church but y'all made this a great time! Shoutouts bunnyy for hosting! Happy that I beat the washed allegations.
 
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Idyll

xD
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
[THREAD UPDATES]

[UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT]


There's a new Oldgen Manager™ 'round these parts! As you may have noticed, I am now handling the thread for BW DOU, overseeing BW VR updates, sample team updates, and various other needs and projects regarding the oldgen. I made that list of responsibilities up, but you get the gist. Anyway! I am now in charge with this Oldgen's resources, and I do plan to keep this as well regulated as I managed to have the XY thread, so do rest assured that this'll be in tiptop shape.

The BW DOU thread is very (in)famous for how much its Viability Rankings gets updated. The last time the VR post got edited was on March 7th of 2021—yes, that is the date of the post being edited or touched at all, not necessarily it being the last VR update (though that would obviously a bad thing as well). The Sample Teams post is in similar shape, with its last post update being on May 24th of 2021. It is essential that we give constant care to important learning resources if we want to promote activity within our oldgens, so rest assured that updates will roll right away when it comes to these resources.

With that in mind...

[VIABILITY RANKINGS UPDATE]

Yes, the VR actually just got updated! Please look at the post for it on the first page to see it in all its glory. The entirety of the VR was voted on by a group of respectable, worthy BW players consisting of myself, DaAwesomeDude1, DaWoblefet, Frania, SMB, smudgerox, and zee. This has lead to a shake-up in rankings to more accurately depict the state of the metagame at the current moment, with many Pokemon rising and falling throughout the rankings. We have also removed the ranking of Tier 5 altogether, as this tier was essentially superfluous and typically consisted of Pokemon that saw use only extremely rarely. With this also came a purging of Pokemon on the previous VR that would not deserve to be ranked otherwise.

As mentioned, the latest version of the VR is on the first page. Here, however, are all the movements between rankings:

Rises:
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-T: 2 -> 1
:Excadrill: Excadrill: 3 -> 2
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn: 4 -> 3
:gastrodon: Gastrodon: 4 -> 3
:genesect: Genesect: 4 -> 3
:scrafty: Scrafty: 4 -> 3
:bisharp: Bisharp: 5 -> 4
:marowak: Marowak: 5 -> 4
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-A: UR -> 4
:latias: Latias: UR -> 4
:cobalion: Cobalion: UR -> 4

Falls:
:Heatran: Heatran: 1 -> 2
:kingdra: Kingdra: 1 -> 2
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-B: 1 -> 2
:scizor: Scizor 2 -> 3
:volcarona: Volcarona: 3 -> 4
:Breloom: Breloom: 3 -> 4
:keldeo: Keldeo: 3 -> 4
:terrakion: Terrakion: 3 -> 4
:victini: Victini: 4 -> UR
:gyarados: Gyarados: 5 -> UR
:heracross: Heracross: 5 -> UR
:infernape: Infernape: 5 -> UR
:mamoswine: Mamoswine: 5 -> UR
:manaphy: Manaphy: 5 -> UR
:mew: Mew: 5 -> UR
:ninetales: Ninetales: 5 -> UR
:sableye: Sableye: 5 -> UR
:landorus: Landorus-I: 5 -> UR
[SAMPLE TEAMS]

This is the next order of business and new, updated sample teams will be ready in the very near future.

We hope these updates will be useful to anyone who wants to get into BW for DPL and DOU Circuit tours that feature Oldgens! These rankings will be revisited at an appropriate time in the future.
 
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Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
Sad I missed DPL but happy to see the thread VR updated - it looks really good!

I would really like to see some examples or discussion of Exccadrill teams in action. I feel I find it hard to build chiefly due to the spread of high-tiered threats that beat both excadrill and ttar (landot, intimidate, amoonguss) and excadrill's lack of defensive synergy despite being a steel. Memoric's sample team is a good start but would be cool to see some discussion!

Here is a submission for a sample team
:amoonguss: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :tyranitar: :heatran: :latios:
https://pokepast.es/8e21abd6d3b62ff3

The core concept is double switch moves with u-turn and volt switch to enable choice band tyranitar positioning. There are very few things that are happy about casually eating a cb rock slide, especially if your opps steel is Heatran. Amoonguss benefits from the rotational positioning and Latios comes with Tailwind to further enable Ttar. Substitute Heatran here rounds out the composition as a stable Metagross counter and alternative wincon, while also benefiting from Thundurus TWave and Ttar's Sand.

The spreads can easily be modified for speed creep if one likes (ie timid Heatran, faster Ttar, Jolly-scarf Landot) but this is the default version, so to speak. I brought this team vs Stratos in DPL 6 and I find it to be very consistent.
 
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Idyll

xD
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
[THREAD UPDATES]

[SAMPLE TEAMS]


We've updated the spread of sample teams! The post containing the sample teams is on the first page, which is also linked here. Apologies for the delay! The list of sample teams were curated specifically to represent the various core archetypes of the BW metagame. We hope that this new list of teams will help foster a more holistic way of getting into the BW DOU metagame!
 
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Been enjoying DPP DOU and the variety of teams there, will there be a ladder for BW DOU soon? either as a ROA metagame or a permanent ladder? it kinda shocks me the gen with the most unique metagame of permaweather doesnt have enough demand, even DPP DOU was allowed to be played outside of being an ROA metagame.

Would love to play it either with someone here for friendlies, as an ROA tour, or as a ROA spotlight metagame :D
 

Paraplegic

relax...
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I posted my response to the survey in doucord and was told to just post it here.

I do not actively play bw(or any tier that isnt current gen and even that is on and off) anymore, but I was once a really avid player of it and people like wob and smb could vouch for that. I don't plan on signing up for bw in dpl but thats only because I always just focus on current gen.

I ,however, enjoy watching bw a LOT. The tier has a special emphasis on positioning, but in a way that manifests very differently from the incin gens and promotes relatively fast paced gameplay compared to especially the most recent couple old gens. I think the weather aspect combined with status management over the course of games just leads to a lot of dynamic, back and forth slug fests, and I think thats awesome.

On Thundy-I; This is apparently a controversial take somehow(?), but I genuinely believe thundy is a cornerstone of the meta in a good way if that makes sense, or I guess that is to say I think removing it would be incredibly damaging to the identity of the tier. I view status management in-game as a core facet of bw gameplay with the blame being able to be placed on a lot more than just thundy. Sleep is so broken(definitely more on this later) that we had to nerf it into a playable state, worth it as that is. Jellicent spreads burns with incredible efficacy, and shit, cress can throw around yellow magic like crazy too. To blame thundy for turning the tier into a hax fest or something feels super disingenuous to me considering how important it is as speed control in the grand scheme of the tier. The tailwinders mostly all suck, and thundy is the main thing that fills the vacuum of speed control compatible with faster mons in the meta. The only other really good options are latios that opt to run tw(which is also apparently on the chopping block) or using weather+applicable speed boosting ability mon, both of which are a lot less consistent or generally applicable as speed control. Other tailwinders come with even more downsides and less consistency than tw latios, and the speedy weather mons are only speed control themselves and dont manipulate turn order for the rest of your team. Other spreaders of yellow magic are way more reactive than thundy, due to lack of prankster, in a way that limits there ability to be speed control in some pretty important scenarios too. Removing thundy, imo, heavily incentivizes trick room or weather oriented strategies in a way that I think would be harmful and reductive on top of just totally shifting the identity of the tier. Plenty of people have been enjoying this tier for over a decade at this point and I think such a monumental and meta shaking proposal being on the table is a large injustice to what all those people have poured the time they have into this.

On Latios; I have a much less passionate take on this I promise. Latios is a really good mon, and while I dont think its broken or deserves removal, I also largely think it doesnt matter as much in the grand scheme of the meta. Its really, REALLY, fucking good at forcing progress in early-mid game states, and if used late game its often a beast at trading in a favorable way. The tier isnt really structured around it beyond using its crazy draco calcs as THE benchmark on the special side. If it were removed, dracos would still be getting dropped by kingdra and whatever non-rain dragon rises up to fill its role best(probably just the other lati surely? *maybe mence*??), steels would still be just about as valuable as they are now defensively, and while latios is currently easily the best tailwind, thats mostly because it just over performs everything else in the role, and removing it would surely allow something else to rise up and take its place. I think it would just boil down to freeing some evs from special bulk on some things since the next general draco/special attack benchmark will be lower than what latios currently places it at. Ultimately I am largely indifferent on this one, but my preference would still be to maintain status quo because at the end of the day, latios is just the most consistently crazy offensive piece in a tier full of pretty crazy offensive pieces.

on Sleep clause; Im running out of steam so I will be making this more brief. Please just leave it alone!!! I understand that logistically, it doesnt really fit in with how we tier in the modern day, but amoonguss is such an important piece of the meta as a pivot that can actually attempt to remain healthy throughout a game in the face of all the threats this tier has + the incredibly important resist profile it has as the only really good grass that actually counts as a water resist(so, not skymin) in the tier with perma rain. Removing sleep clause and banning sleep guts it by removing any pressure it can exert, and then boom, all of a sudden you've taken an integral water resist and the only currently legal and good redirection user and turned them into a passive pos that will really struggle to justify a team slot in the face of all the hard hitters in this tier. All it will be able to do is buy a turn or two for a partner as its used like a punching bag, and looking at every other example in every meta of dou I am familiar with, that will not be enough to be very good. I realize that sleep clause isn't ideal by any means, I really do, but I think this, much like thundy, veers into changing the identity of the tier in a way that really doesn't sit right with me.

Holy shit thank you for coming to my ted talk.
 
to share my responses as well

I probably won't be playing BW in whichever team tour it features in this year no matter the tiering action, but I particularly fell in love with the tier over the past year by virtually learning it alongside Smudge to try and salvage our DPL BW and then putting what I learned into a top 4 finish in BW Cup. I will not claim to be in even the top 10 BW players, but I would say I am more proficient at the tier than most of the playerbase at this time.

I find BW REALLY enjoyable to watch. Gems make things go KABOOM. Offensive positioning is quite crucial, defensive pivots are quite hard to come by, and gameplanning (and adjusting those gameplans after a full para, rock slide flinch, draco miss, or a nasty gen 5 crit, etc) is important. When we talk about Pokemon being a game of managing your odds, in no doubles tier does that seem more true than BW.

Not specifically survey responses, but I do want to talk about why the BW controversy in the DPL format discussion came up. I do genuinely think there are a lot of really strong BW players: DaWoblefet, SMB, Fran, JRL, Memoric, Actuarily, Lunar, Dad1, Smudge, Tenzai, (sure me too why not) in the community. But in a tournament like DPL where it is beneficial to commit to playing a single slot (worst case a 2nd tier if roster swapping need occur), obviously you aren't gonna get all of this group playing BW when there's like half a dozen other tiers to play, just like Para alludes to where he says he'd rather play CG but still has an interest in the tier. I don't really care if BW ends up in DPL or Derby, but I'm glad there is this conversation of how we can promote the tier to new players, as historically it has been considered not particularly beginner friendly. With that being said, here's my takes on the 3 items brought up for tiering action:

I put that I would not oppose a Thundurus suspect test. Playing around Paralysis is indeed a crucial part of the tier, and you can get rewarded for things like stacking ground types (see: Wob's Gastro / Gene team), correctly getting up Substitutes, or just forcing Thundurus to trade before your entire team shows up PAR in the summary screen. However, Prankster Thunder Wave is still one of the more oppressive elements of the tier and I wouldn't oppose at least putting it to a vote if the demand is there (note: not even sure I'd vote ban or DNB tbh). Cresselia is still a strong user of Thunder Wave that can be employed, Thundurus-T, Kyurem-B, and Rotom-W offer strong Electric coverage that would prevent Jellicent from just running the tier, and Thundurus is far from the only thing keeping rain in check. Again, not calling for a ban outright, but I can definitely see both the complaints about the kit and the arguments for why it does or doesn't hold the tier together.

Latios isn't banworthy to me at all, especially if Thundurus is kept around, though I do support the sentiment that it is the true #1 Pokemon in the tier. Funnily enough it reminds me of current gen Flutter Mane, it's likely faster than anything you have barring speed control, it will kill all of your Pokemon if their health is too low, and you should never leave home without your Dragon resist. That being said, Steel types and speed control are quite abundant in the metagame, and I think having the strong burst attacker is a plus when it comes to busting up the likes of Cresselia, Jellicent, Amoonguss, and Tyranitar. Smartly positioning the tools to keep it in check is a fundamental part of playing the tier well. Smartly positioning Latios to eliminate things before it gets crippled and pinned is a fundamental part of playing the tier well. It's got enough going against it to stop it from being banworthy.

I voted that I would like to see a Sleep ban. I am just really not a fan of the current Sleep Clause that we have in place, without having to get too deep into cartridge reciprocity, I just think mods like this lead into a similar slippery slope as the Blaze Blaziken arguments. I don't think a sleep ban even ruins the viability of Amoonguss, as the bulk + rage powder alone make it a worthwhile support option in a tier so heavily tuned in the direction of offense. BW Sleep is just (for whatever reason) so completely overtuned with the reset counter that sporing something is effectively taking a kill, and all you need to do to do it again is kill the slot you Spored. I think if Sleep alone was the issue I would probably not favor tiering action, but the mod + the raw power of Sleep is enough for me to think we should just simplify things and get it out.
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

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To share my thoughts too:

I started playing BW pretty seriously last DPL and I plan to play it as my main tier for this coming one too. I didn't play it when it was the current gen, but I did play it on and off during my years in the doubles community, either testing with teammates during past DPLs or random BW tours. I used to not like BW very much, it felt very coin-flippy to me in between Thundurus and the constant rain mirrors. Since last DPL, I've come to really love BW. I think Para and zee sum it up very well in their posts, it's risk management to the extremes. These types of fast-paced offensive trades is very appealing to me and I feel that BW more often than not rewards the player who is able to identify and make the correct trades.

I also do not particularly care if BW is in DPL or Derby; I just want to play BW and either tournament would let me do that. The nature of this discussion naturally would make it seem like BW is being delegated to the "less prestigious" tournament but both tournaments are equally important and have some of the best players of the respective tiers signing up.

On Thundurus, I would also not be opposed to a suspect test. I'm not entirely sure which way I would vote if a suspect test were to happen, but I would probably lean towards no ban. There's enough counterplay that allows teams to effectively take it out: Ground-types like Landorus-T and Excadrill, setting up a Substitute earlier on, or bulky Pokemon like Conkeldurr and Tyranitar that doesn't care about being paralyzed. Additionally, spamming T wave to fish for full paras constantly just isn't a consistent enough way to win BW games. That said, I agree that Thundurus can be pretty oppressive at times. We talk a lot about risk-reward management and while playing around Prankster T wave certainly is a big part of that, it is also important to note that the 25% of full paralysis makes the risk portion of the trade way higher for the person playing against Thundurus. Take for example Latios vs Thundurus, a pretty common matchup. For the person with Thundurus, paralyzing a Latios effectively knocks it out while the person with Latios might be willing to trade a T-wave onto their Latios to knock out the opposing Thundurus. The issue is if the Thundurus player gets the full paralysis on Latios, suddenly the Thundurus player randomly gained a massive reward from the trade they were willing to make anyways. Of course, I'm simplifying it a lot here but this was just to highlight how Thundurus can sometimes turn these scenarios upside down and force the opponent to make suboptimal plays at the fear of that full-paralysis chance. I would be lying if I said I never fished for full-paras - it's a 25% chance to bring yourself back into the game which could be viewed as uncompetitive, but similarly to Para, I view status management as another part of BW's gameplanning.

Similarly to the above posts, I don't think Latios is worth banning. It's a really good Pokemon and while I flip-flop between it and Thundurus as the best Pokemon in the tier, I feel that almost everyone will agree that it's in the top 3. Zee sums up my thoughts about Latios so I won't rehash all of that. I briefly want to highlight Latios in DPP because I feel that the rough gameplan for DPP games is similar to that of BW. They're both metas with heavy emphasis on offensive positioning. One of the main reasons why Latios ended up being banned in DPP in my opinion is that it oftentimes has the opportunity to Draco multiple times in a game, whereas BW has enough offensive counterplay to where Latios is usually only forcing a 1-for-1 trade which makes it less likely to single-handedly take over a game.

I'd prefer to keep Sleep Clause. Amoonguss with Spore is one of the few defensive counterplays in the tier, and I think it keeps the meta more interesting rather than stat sticks knocking each other out. I don't have any strong feelings towards cartridge reciprocity, but I understand how mods and clauses like this is a slippery slope. Sleep mechanic without limitations is broken, and I wouldn't be opposed to removing it entirely to simplify things. I also think Amoonguss would still be viable without Spore; it has a great typing and is the only redirection Pokemon in the tier. That said, I agree with Para that managing Sleep is an integral part of BW's identity. Choosing a Sleep fodder and keeping it in the back to prevent Amoonguss from Sporing is another part of the risk-reward management of BW. Of course, that veers into a different conversation of whether we should be allowed to make subjective changes to the game like this but for right now, I would like to keep Sleep Clause.
 

Idyll

xD
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RBTT Champion
To quickly contextualize where the three above posts are coming from, there is a survey on BW Tiering that was posted on Discord which I'll also link here. This is right off the heels of DPL Format Discussions, which brought up the possibility of replacing BW DOU with another format and talked about the relative state of BW DOU as a metagame.

Personally, I feel that the metagame is in a relatively healthy state and there is nothing that should be changed about it.

:bw/thundurus:
Thundurus is definitely one of the most contentious parts of the format, and its presence has definitely shaped the core identity of the format as a whole. The fact that Thunder Wave is much more freely applied in BW compared to future formats can definitely feel oppressive at times—however, I believe that Thundurus overall is not oppressive enough on a regular basis for it to merit removal from the format. The need to play around Prankster Thunder Wave is a dynamic that I feel is acceptable for game health and it's definitely one of the more skill-testing aspects in the format, both in the builder and in-game. A good number of options have rosen to combat Thundurus and it's definitely felt way weaker now than it ever was; we've already seen how Excadrill Sand as a teamcomp has been good precisely because it features a core attacker immune to Thunder Wave, and even much more recently we've seen CB Genesect and Thundurus-T trending up, with the viability of both benefiting in no small part from how they can negate Thundurus in some way. Even more, we've seen how teams have generally been trending towards being slower, tankier bulky offenses which feature more attackers that don't mind being paralyzed, with pure offensive rain offenses genuinely nowhere to be seen as an example. In-game, Thundurus definitely feels manageable and mitigating how much overall damage is itself a key form of skill expression when playing the format; players have generally been better at planning games ahead, specifically regarding how they deal with opposing Thundurus by knowing who to send out against it (knowing full well it may eat a para) and how they engage the specific 2v2 sequences with it to get overall winning trades. This is considering the fact that even the bulkiest Thundurus sets are still relatively frail, and BW features the stongest attacks of the team-preview DOU generations.

:bw/latios:
Latios, meanwhile, has been a Pokemon I have been calling the best Pokemon in the format since forever now. I also do not believe Latios to be deserving of any tiering action, at all. One thing I like about BW DOU is that its best attacker is also feels the most fair out of every Generation of DOU I have ever played. Despite how strong its Draco Meteors are, how fast it is relative to the metagame, and how good its resistances are, it still definitely is very punishable. Its reliance on a burst window with Draco Meteor is something that can be reasonably played around with, particularly with good Steel-types or very tanky stuff such as Tyranitar, Cresselia, and Jellicent. It also can feel like deadweight in TR, and as a Dark-weak Pokemon it's very trappable with Tyranitar. Overall, I feel that Latios simple excels at particular key things such as forcing an opening through the opposing team, but it's both already quite punishable and its play patterns already feel relatively fair to begin with.

:bw/amoonguss:

The Sleep Clause discussion to me is less of a "this is broken / unhealthy" thing and more of a "this is for policy" thing. I really don't feel too strongly either way, and would be more than fine with the status quo. I really don't have anything to add so I'll leave the two posts above to it.

Now, then, if I personally feel that nothing actually needs changing with the BW DOU format itself, what exactly is the problem with it and why is it under scrutiny for DPL?

The format right now has definitely had relatively less activity compared to DPP DOU, which is currently is biggest competition for a DPL slot at the moment. DPP DOU has seen a surge of activity ever since its resurgence, with its most recent thread, opened on March 3, 2023, now reaching 4 forum pages. This BW DOU thread, meanwhile, has been on Page 3 since 2021. DPP is also definitely more fresh on the overall DOU consciousness, having its own streak of tours with its inclusion in Derby, the Oldgens Invitational, and the friendly series. In terms of recent development and with being trendy within the DOU community, DPP is definitely quite strong, and with DPL only having a limited number of slots, the discussion of which formats to include is an important one.

Perhaps the biggest problem we can see with BW DOU is that, despite being its own established format already, it hasn't had received much support from its established players. BW DOU has both not have had much opportunities to be played in individual tournaments, and its players also don't talk about it much in general here in this thread—both of these, in tandem, do not make BW DOU any interesting to prospective players and make the barrier for entry higher than it actually should be.

The BW DOU format itself is fine. What we should be doing, instead, is to promote the BW DOU format more. The approach for this should be two-fold:
  • More opportunities to play the format (outside of DPL). For starters, let's try to have an BW DOU minitour at some point (could even do a XY DOU Skymin- / Mence-styled minitour, but with BW Thundurus). Generally, opportunities to play give more reason for prospective players to give the format a look.
  • More activity from established players, with emphasis on forum activity as forum posts are also essentially much more accessible resources for the common player. This should be concurrent with the first one; it is specifically when tours are happening that activity and posts are the most valuable, because they both generate hype and also aid in player entry to the format.
Overall, let's consider: Is the BW DOU format active? It definitely has its fair share of supporters and players, who would definitely play the format in DPL should it still be included. Is the format flawed? Definitely not; it definitely plays differently, but we can say that about every format and BW DOU is definitely a flavor of its own, representing a high-octane team-preview Generation with as little teambuilding gimmicks as possible. Of course, the format right now is what it is at this point, and on a personal level, I definitely don't think changing anything about it (or making it a suspect slot in DPL lmao) as a kneejerk reaction to the supposed notion of the format being flawed is the ideal way to go about it. I personally feel that the problem lies elsewhere, and it is up to the already established and dedicated players (myself included) to make sure BW DOU is as active as it could be in order for it to be deserving of a place in our leagues and circuits.
 
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Actuarily

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With BW DOU getting a ladder for the month & there being a Ruins of Alph BW DOU swiss tour (which everyone should sign up for), I wanted to give people new to the format a quick couple of modern teambulding comps they can use to begin building their own teams.


1. :Landorus-Therian: / :Latios: / :Thundurus: / Steel type / Rain check (Usually a water type) / Wildcard

This is the classic BW balance comp (but still is extremely good!). Landorus-Therian is the best pokemon in the tier, due to its ability to intimidate, be immune to thunder wave, pivot (in a tier where pivots are relatively rare), & set stealth rocks, all while being offensively threatening (it's also one of the best checks to the best pokemon in the tier.... itself). Lando-T has a couple good sets, scarf is excellent for pivoting out before it gets hit, sash is great for letting it take a super effective hit, and sitrus can further it's bulk. It's just weak to one main playstyle: rain.

So Latios & Thundurus are excellent partners, as they're both pretty good into rain, as well as being earthquake immune allowing Landorus-Therian to fire off earthquakes without hitting its partner. Latios is one of the hardest hitters in the tier, but struggles against opposing steel types (which Lando-t conviently hits). Thundurus is more of a utility & disruption Pokemon, able to use prankster thunder waves to slow down opposing offensive threats, and taunt to prevent opposing status moves.

Those three paired together have one obvious weakness; they're all weak to ice moves. But that's where the next two slots come in, as steel types resist ice moves as well as give you a switchin to opposing dragon attacks. Some good examples are Heatran, Ferrothorn, Metagross, Genesect, Scizor, etc. Then on top of that, this comp usually needs another rain check, which is often a bulky water (to give another ice resist) such as Jellicent, Gastrodon, Rotom-Wash, Suicune, etc. It's a bonus if these bulky waters are able to check opposing bulky waters (usually via toxic), as the rest of your team can struggle into them as well. This doesn't have to be a water type, especially depending on what your wildcard is, but they are probably the best fit.

Some examples:
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2. :Landorus-Therian: / :Genesect: / Water type / often a fighting type / wildcard x2

This is a more recent teambuilding archetype, built around the pivoting force of Lando-T and Choice Band Genesect. We by now have a good idea of what Lando-t does, but it also has great synergy with CB Genesect, able to beat the fires & steels that Genesect hates. Genesect compliments Lando-t by being able to switch in on ice types, and then threaten fast offensive threats with powerful Extremespeeds that move before everything (except Fake Out) that otherwise outspeed and threaten Lando-T.

The water type is important here as it is capable of switching in on fire, water, and ice moves for the two pivoters, while also drawing in electric & grass type attacks that allows the Lando-t and Genesect to switch back in and further launch their powerful pivots. Depending on the rest of the team generally decides which water you go with. Are you looking for a trick room setter that helps vs opposing Genesect? Then Jellicent is the move. Are you looking for something that's also immune to thunder wave and is good at hitting most things in the tier? Then look no further than Gastrodon. Do you need a set up wincon? Then perhaps CM Suicune is best. Do you want something that can also pivot back into the other threats? Rotom-Wash is here for you!

A fighting type pokemon is common, but not required, on this comp. Fighting types greatly appreciate what Lando-t and Genesect beat, psychics such as Cresselia, Gothitelle, Mew, and the Lati twins, and in return Fighting types are generally good at chipping most of the tier, putting them into range for CB Genesect's extremespeeds. Conkeldurr is the hardest hitting of the bunch, but Scrafty provides much more support with intimidate & Fake out, while also being immune to psychic & being able to hit opposing Jellicent with Crunch. Hitmontop can also intimdate & Fake out, while not being weak to opposing fighting Pokemon, and getting good support moves like Rapid Spin & Helping Hand.

The last two wildcards probably want something that can set Stealth Rocks if your Lando-T isn't carrying them, as chipping away at opposing health is great for this pivot core.

Some examples:
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You can even combine the two archetypes, such as in this DaWoblefet sample:
Choice Band Genesect-centric by DaWoblefet
:scrafty::latios::gastrodon::landorus-therian::genesect::thundurus:

Overall, I'd say if you have one team of each archetype, a rain squad, and maybe one or two more teams (either of the above archetypes or something else you like) then you can have a fully stacked BW builder!
 
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yuki

Huh? Me? Not this time...
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DPL X Team Dump

Hi guys! I'm fresh off my first DPL, playing a tier I love but don't get to play as often as I would like. Going into this tour, I definitely felt like the clear underdog of the pool with probably the least experience of the players around me, but I'm super happy to come out the other side at 3-3 with the team finishing 4-3 in the tier. In this post, I wanted to share my experiences, teams and my thoughts going into each week.

Week 1 vs Frania (L)
:Gothitelle::Ferrothorn::Heatran::Landorus-Therian::Latios::Conkeldurr:

Going into the first week, I spotted Frania had a fair amount of Rain usage as well some pretty standard Balance-y builds (Landorus-T, Jellicent, Heatran, Thundurus, Latios, Conkeldurr and such were fairly common). I felt pretty confident that if I could keep Heatran and Conkeldurr in check, Ferrothorn would be a positive pick for the week overall. Paired with Gothitelle, I felt this had a really good opportunity to just be able to play long enough into a game where Ferrothorn would inevitably find a good position to just get setup and clean. Noting the need to check Conkeldurr and Heatran especially, as well as annoying Pokemon like Amoonguss I chose to add Heatran, Landorus-T, Latios and Conkeldurr. These generally make up a fairly standard core overall, but provided me what I thought to be a lot of stability to let me play a more defensive game overall. Scarf Latios was picked for a little surprise factor against the opposing Dragons, as well as to give me options into opposing Substitutes that I really didn't want going up in front of my Leech Seeds as well as Jellicent which would otherwise take a bunch of time to wear down sufficiently.

I made a fairly big misplay very early on, letting the Gothitelle go down pretty needlessly as I tunnelled into trapping the nerfed Latios into the board. While Gothitelle did get crit, it was effectively of my own doing and I got punished for poor positioning and I found early on that I was effectively working 2 Pokemon down with both Conkeldurr and Ferrothorn being at half HP. I got some opportunities later into the game, including denying the Suicune an apt moment to set up the Substitute it wanted. I needed to get through my paralysis a couple times to stand a chance, but it likely wouldn't have been enough. I'm happy I made the game closer than it potentially could have been given my bad start.

Week 2 vs Actuarily (L)
:Genesect::Latias::Conkeldurr::Landorus-Therian::Thundurus::Gastrodon:

The very first idea I had for the week was Band Genesect + Gastrodon as I had seen a bit of Rain usage, alongside Sub Metagross and Heatran. Overall, I wanted to go in a pretty standard direction with building, again playing to my strengths with bulkier teams. Thundurus opts for Electric Gem on this team to provide an answer to potential Jellicents, which was always going to be a concern going into the week. Other than that, it would be a matter of trying to bruteforce my way through it, or at least pray it was Will-O-Wisp instead of Toxic and that I could play a long game with Gastrodon against it. Latias takes the place of the typical Latios on this team as I felt we could do with the extra bulk, with it effectively acting as a more offensive Cresselia while also baiting in Latios and Kingdra with its Haban Berry.

In game, I absolutely overextended on turn 1 because I had the wrong ability selected in the calc but got saved by luck. Overall, I felt my play was generally solid until I decided to just sac my Gastrodon to the Ferrothorn leaving me one less good piece into the endgame. I even realised my mistake as my animations played before it even got to the Ferrothorn, so it's a little tough to sit there watching knowing you've probably just sacrificed something for no reason. I wasn't super precise in my endgame, but managed to pull it back a little before succumbing to my lack of resources later on.

Week 3 vs Mishimono (W)
:Thundurus::Tyranitar::Tornadus::Landorus-Therian::Hitmontop::Kyurem-Black:

This week, I honestly just really wanted to use Triple Genie. Not really seeing much presence from Rain in the scout, but rather some more standard builds that generally looked to mirror how I liked to build, I wanted to switch things up and bring something that could potentially have some surprise factor. Sub Kyurem-B was a late addition that I felt was super interesting, as bar some Metagross and Conkeldurr that I had seen and felt adequately prepared for, nothing much really seemed to threaten it a huge deal overally. We elected for Hidden Power Fire on Thundurus and Fire Blast on Tyranitar this week just in case of a Ferrothorn bring. Toxic Hitmontop was preferred to Feint in the end due to improving my matchups into the likes of Gastrodon and Jellicent, additionally Wide Guard felt like a must to marginally improve a potential Rain matchup, though the scout didn't reveal this being a likelihood. Double Taunt ended up being pretty handy in testing, being able to restrict Trick Room and Ferrothorn as much as possible while I positioned better to take them down,

I got pretty lucky in team selection seeing Volcarona the one time I decide to bring Stealth Rock, and prioritised this heavily in my early game. I felt I played the early game really well in this one, mostly relying on defensive switches to make small amounts of progress until I could force the Thundurus and Volcarona off the field. I felt a little unlucky to lose my Thundurus when I did, but inevitably my real misplay was letting my Tyranitar get pinned for free and making myself really easy to read. I started to lose my grip on the game a little, but I managed to solidify and a timely Meteor Mash miss into Kyurem-B (which we luckily survived either way) gave me enough room to take down the remaining parts of Mishi's team.

Week 4 Sunrose vs DaAwesomeDude1 (W)
:Latios::Volcarona::Dragonite::Gastrodon::Landorus-Therian::Metagross:

I made the call really early on into our scouting that Volcarona was likely a pretty good Pokemon to bring for the week, however this was due to confusing my mechanics... it turns out sound moves bypassing Substitute was a change made in Gen 6. Who knew? Despite this, it's actually still a pretty good Pokemon for the week, being incredibly strong immediately while its best checks in Tyranitar and Heatran seem adequately checked by the inclusion of Choice Band Superpower Dragonite and the dual Ground-types. We did have to do a small amount of patchwork later on with Safeguard Latios coming on to the team, as well as a hell of a lot of debate about what the Volcarona should actually have. Inevitably we settled on Giga Drain to try to pressure Jellicent with it and Latios, which felt much needed as we had elected not to run Toxic on Gastrodon this week.

Week 5 vs DaWoblefet (W)
:Amoonguss::Conkeldurr::Cresselia::Jellicent::Heatran::Landorus-Therian:

This was honestly the match I was probably anticipating the most all season. DaWoblefet is a player I respect not just for his playing ability, but his work for the whole community, and I was looking forward to tackling this week against him. His builds are inevitably pretty standard... given he has an 8 hour video effectively defining the standards! I always wanted to play some variant of Trick Room against him, given it was something I hadn't fully committed to as a playstyle yet. Initially, we identified Abomasnow as a good idea for the week, but I built something pretty bad overall and I just didn't feel comfortable. So I switched to something more standard, but ultimately looking back on this, it's rather passive. Outside of the Conkeldurr, and maybe the Heatran and Landorus-T, I really don't exert a lot of offensive pressure. Even more than that, this team originally had a Porygon2 mere minutes before the game, where I decided the Conkeldurr matchup was just too bad and Cresselia might help to alleviate that.

For the most part, I spent my early game getting outpositioned. I kinda needlessly sacrificed my Amoonguss, instead of healing with Regenerator, and I was later forced into sacrificing my best Metagross check in Heatran after having to eat a Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from Latios. I end up turning the tides really well, deviating from my normal play of U-turn + Trick Room on a board with Landorus-T + Jellicent, and instead making a really aggressive read and catching Metagross with an Earthquake. I get the next turn correct as well with Ice Beam hitting the Landorus-T, and giving me a good platform to win the game.

Week 6 vs Smudge (W)
:Latios::Landorus-Therian::Conkeldurr::Jellicent::Genesect::Thundurus:

Against Smudge, I wanted to revisit the most basic possible structure but switched it up with some extra offensive presence with the Band Genesect and the returning Fighting Gem Conkeldurr + Jellicent idea I used against DaWoblefet. This gave me enough bulk and stability to play a longer game should I need to. Admittedly in prep that week, our manager had played a set in DPP where I was told there was an agreement not to use Thunder Wave. Initially I wanted to use Sub Flying Gem Thundurus-T, but switched it to Thundurus-I later on to have that Thunder Wave on my team which I felt could give me some form of mental edge should I catch a good paralysis.

The game goes pretty well for me overall, I get the better luck with the paralysis overall but I do have to admit I catch a very relevant one later in the game that had I not got, I would have lost my Conkeldurr. I took some risks with my own paralysed Pokemon to try to not let the Volcarona get setup so easily. I never found a good point to set up Stealth Rock in this game, however, due to Taunt Thundurus keeping my support pieces quieter. Overall, I think I took good advantage of the luck that I did get, but seeing that I had basically tried to sacrifice Conkeldurr in review was pretty gross overall.

Week 7 vs Mizuhime (L)
:Politoed::Kingdra::Thundurus-Therian::Genesect::Amoonguss::Scrafty:

At this point, our season was over. I hadn't used Rain at all up until this point, and I hadn't really had much experience using it myself. Given our season was over, and knowing this team can storm a game if played right, I wanted to give it a go and see how it fit for me. In the game, I ran into mono-Dragon, and I felt like if I could preserve my Kingdra until my opponent's was gone, I could have good chances. I caught a bit of good luck with the Draco Meteor misses, but ultimately fell short due to a couple of crits which starved my resources quicker than I could expend theirs.

Overall, despite a disappointing end to the season, I had an absolute blast playing this tier and I can't wait for more opportunities. I know league shoutouts aren't usually done in a place like this, but Bless variationonatheme Paraplegic AIRedzone NinjaSnapple you guys were absolutely crucial in every step of this season for me. Whether it was testing, match review, teambuilding or just keeping me focused and motivated, I couldn't have done it without you guys. Also a big shoutout to baaaaaat, having you along for the ride genuinely made this season twice as good.
Quick shoutout to the other Hydreigons! You were all amazing.
 
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Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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any1 bw? - DPL X BW meta thoughts and team dump

Sharing my post DPLX thoughts and my team pastes/building ideas. Had a blast playing and special thanks to the many test games with Idyll Mizuhime Hys DaAwesomeDude1 Actuarily Smudge

I feel like I gave a strong showing with nice wins vs top opponents DaWob and Actuarily and truthfully kinda tossed the ones vs frania and Smudge. Ahhh it could've been a 5-0 but alas...

Meta thoughts
my-image.png

(hopefully I didn't forget anything)
BW DOU orbits couple big-dog threats, most of which have standard sets with minor coverage deviations. Two exceptions we saw this DPL are the genies which utilized a wide variety of sets.

:landorus-therian: :thundurus:
For LandoT choice scarf, sash, and sitrus berry are all viable. Meanwhile we saw some Thund-I creep to snipe landot with hp Ice, while some LandoT also crept to Jolly nature to outspeed such Thund-I. Thund-I also sometimes ran hp fire and a lot of speed, to snipe Genesect.

One important principle in BW DOU is scouting your opponents sets with minimal information. There simply aren't enough turns to play it slow and carefully figure out what items/coverage your opponent has brought. Mitigating this is using *all* the information the game gives you, such as entry-text (Intimidate, Download, Sand Stream, etc), switch-out order, and leftovers/sand damage. Ideally, you would run a LandoT which is faster than most Thund-I while also being slower than all opposing LandoT - this is unfortunately of course impossible.

:landorus-therian:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 20 SpD / 216 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Sitrus LandoT is a strong bulky pivot, with some variations for the EVs. I brought this particular spread week 3 and 4 - the defensive investment and speed should be carefully tailored for your needs, and also considering opposing Genesect Download - try to pick a spdef-def difference that complements the other members of your team. That week 3 team has a Heatran so the set has equal spdef and defense.

Other meta thoughts? Non-Scarf LandoT significantly hurt heatran, while the prevalence of CBG has all but killed things like Chansey and makes it very difficult for certain defensive mons like Gastrodon and Cresselia, Gothitelle, Scrafty, and Kyurem-Black. In particular I think CBG Rain is extremely strong right now. Be sure to take a close look at your DEF/SPDEF spreads - it can often be worth it to run a SPDEF-DEF difference of 20 (29 SPDEF ivs and 4 evs in DEF) on genesect to manipulate opposing download.

Week 1 vs DaAwesomeDude1
:metagross: :gastrodon: :landorus-therian: :cresselia: :conkeldurr: :thundurus:
Dad1 is someone I tested against frequently before DPL so I couldn't bring any of the teams I had already made. In our test games I always got a lot of mileage out of Conkeldurr and had a good feeling about Cresselia for Dad1's more balance-style teams. As the team evolved this ended up being the same 6 as one of Idyll's teams from a past DPL, with some minor set variations.

He ended up bringing CB Kyube which really surprised me - I feel it didn't do that well in our test games so I underprepped for it a bit, without any revenge killers like Latios/CBG. In the end I got a nice stone edge miss into an easy slug-vs-rain endgame. Also note Metagross' strength vs CBG - CBG rotated in 3 times and got a SpA boost everytime.

Week 2 vs Frania
:thundurus: :heatran: :landorus-therian: :amoonguss: :gastrodon: :latios:
I wanted to inch towards Heatran - my meta read was that it must be good against the abundant Genesect. Unfortunately there weren't any replays since 2020 so I didn't have a lot of data to go off of. Initially Latios was a Conkeldurr but then I was worried about having the same issue as last week, without a fast CB Kyube-killer.

I spent three minutes thinking about Mew sets turn 1 and overpredicted turn 1 and tossed my amazing matchup. Oh well.

Week 3 vs DaWoblefet
:jellicent: :landorus-therian: :heatran: :conkeldurr: :genesect: :cresselia:
We noticed that DaWob was bringing samples the previous weeks, which he also did in DPL 8 against me. I didn't really know what to expect other than some flavor of balance, though. I tested a lot with Dad1 prior to this week, going through many fullroom compositions. In the end I settled on this one, with some strange sets (please take a careful look before using), and it's the exact 6 as another fullroom team floating around.

Jellicent had an amazing matchup - not surprising given I've never brought it to a match before. Scouting out scarf LandoT turn 1 let me control the pivot into Conkeldurr and start doing damage. Low Kick connecting on t4 made it a little dicey for me, but then Conkeldurr did something like 350% damage witout para'ing, plus having protect Jellicent up my sleeve. The paras in the endgame + not having ice beam made it close but everything worked out.

Week 4 vs Actuarily
:metagross: :latios: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :tyranitar: :jellicent:
I wanted to bring metagross this week and started out with metagross-jellicent-CB ttar as a fullroom core. This ended up gravitating towards semiroom when I realized that its matchup against opposing metagross was awful and difficult to redeem with fullroom elements. This is the same 6 as DaWob's sample. I went full bulk Thundurus because Actuarily had shown HP Fire Thundurus and I didn't want to arms-race that kind of speed creep.

Going into the game, Metagross had an amazing matchup but I was hesitant to let it take chip from CBG. Slower U-Turn let me control the turn 2 and go deep on bluffing HP Fire - a play that worked out. The game would've been won-and-done except I tossed my Metagross turn 5 thinking that the para on CBG would almost solve the endgame for Ttar, which I guess it kind've did. I was playing around Superpower LandoT for the whole game but turns out it was Explosion. Sitrus LandoT and full-bulk Thundurus put in good work.

Week 5 vs Smudge
:kyurem-black: :amoonguss: :thundurus-therian: :genesect: :kingdra: :politoed:
I didn't really know what to expect from Smudge but wanted to bring Rain because CBG rain was doing really good in tests. I could've done something more balance-oriented but I wanted something that would punish opposing Sitrus LandoT. This team is pretty close to my deo-a team, with the same conceptual core of CB Kyube + Amoonguss + CBG, so that the pivoters can rotate Amoonguss in on the appropriate turn to prevent getting revenge-killed.

For the match itself I missed the first 2 Hydros in a row and tossed my insanely-good Rain matchup and Specs Toed reveal. Rain giveth and rain taketh I guess... could've Scalded but really wanted to catch a possible switch to Cresselia as well.

---

Had a fun DPL all in all, maybe see yous next year!
 
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Fran

formerly Frania
is a Tiering Contributor
DPL Champion
i've enjoyed playing bw this year, the competition felt very tight this year and almost everyone seemed to be at a similar high level. it was also nice to see that the metagame is still developing and while it does seem like we're getting closer to understanding which playstyles are actually the most optimal, at least my perspective seems to change every year. the biggest trends i noticed this dpl are:

- weatherless becoming the default playstyle
- the rise in popularity of conkeldurr and genesect
- gothitelle+thundurus-t rain becoming clearly the strongest form of rain, possibily the strongest playstyle in general

while weatherless has been rising in popularity ever since we realized jellicent was good, in the last season i think tr has lost a lot of its hype and people have started to focus on teams where thundurus is the main form of speed control and mons like genesect, conkeldurr and latios are used to push the opposing team around. i think the decrease in viability of sand, trick room and the centralization of rain builds (making it so that you don't really want to repeat the same team every week) make it so that there aren't that many options for consistent teams outside of weatherless bulky offense. here are some noms that i think reflect this new reality:

heatran -> tier 3

i believe heatran and genesect should switch places, genesect became the default steel on a lot of teams and if people don't go with that they tend to chose metagross as their alternative steel type. the increase in usage/viability of gothitelle rain and latios tend to favour other steel types. heatran does have some advantages on semitr teams, but since thats no longer the most dominant playstyle i don't think it belongs with the other mons in 2.

excadrill -> tier 3

excadrill has been hurt a lot by the rising popularity of conkeldurr, its very common for teams to carry both it and landorus-t, making it so you have to get past two really solid counters. the decrease of viability of cresselia (mostly caused by the rise in genesect usage) makes it harder to build with excadrill, i think we need to come up with some new frameworks for sand if its going to be considered one of the best playstyles.

cresselia -> tier 3 (maybe 4?)

the genesect trend has really destroyed this mon. it used to have a pretty favourable match up against steel stypes due to hidden power, but now it just gets bullied around by u-turn. gothitelle has also gotten a bit better, while excadrill sand has gotten worse, making it so there aren't that many reason to use cresselia anymore.

kingdra -> tier 1

i think there is a good argument about rain teams not being the most diverse and less reusable than something like sand balance or semi-tr, but its hard to deny that rain with gothitelle+thundurus-t+ferrothorn is one of the strongest, if not the strongest playstyles around. i think if tyranitar is going to stay tier 1, kingdra should be there too.

genesect -> tier 2

the second most used pokemon after landorus-t in dpl premier league regular season, i don't think i need to explain this much further to anyone. it has had a major impact on the metagame, its the main cause in the decrease of viability of many of the mons that used to be considered top tier. the winrate might imply it is a bit overrated, but its still one of the most impactful pokemon at the moment.

gothitelle -> tier 2

this nomiation im most unsure about, since the viability of goth is much different depending on the type of team its on. i believe on regular bulky offensive / sand teams its still a tier 3 mon, its really nothing special. on "trap teams" where it skill swaps with either suicune or ferrothorn its somewhere between tier 2 and 3, i wouldn't consider it a top tier playstyle, but its definitely viable and strong. however rain might be what pushes it to tier 2 in my opinion, it really makes that playstyle work by helping maintain weather dominance, trapping thundurus and making ferrothron a scary win condition.

suicune -> tier 3

i don't think suicune belongs in the category of barely viable mons. its main drawdown is that it doesn't fit on a lot of teams and you do need to build a little bit around it, but its still a very viable win condition, usual teams with latios and bulky thundurus as their only defence will struggle against it and the recent rise of weatherless teams does benefit it, because its no longer hurt by sand.

abomasnow, terrakion, keldeo -> UR

these pokemon haven't been used on serious teams for a long time, tr hasn't really been used for a while taking away the excuse to use abomasnow, terrakion adds very little value to teams, it doesn't really check much and it has to compete with conkeldurr that it also loses to 1v1. keldeo is pretty much always worse than suicune, its weak to the two strongest mons in the metagame (latios and thundurus) that are almost on every team.

mew -> tier 4

honestly i believe mew might have the potencial to be in tier 3, but i think tier 4 is fine for now, since it hasn't proven itself that much. the rise of choice band genesect does advantage it over other psychic types, who can't defend themselves with a speedy flamethrower. its one of the few viable conkeldurr answers, its one of the best stealth rock setters and it offers other support options like whisp, heal bell or tailwind, which in my opinion make it worth considering on weatherless teams as well as excadrill sand.

overral i think the metagame is in a stable place, with a few of the strongest mons balancing each other out. i think i have been proven right in expecting the case for banning thundurus to weaken after this dpl, from my perspective its similar to landorus-t, in how it serves a very important defensive purpose, while not really dominating games and having multiple reliable answers. i don't think you can throw out random twaves anymore without paying a high price in the end, its now very important for thundurus to fullfill its role in checking the two mons im about to mention. the first one of them is latios, which is considered by many to be the best pokemon in the tier, at least in terms of its offensive presence. it probably has the most centralizing effect on teambuilding, pretty much requiring every team to carry a steel type and very often a backup dark type. the mere fact that such a horrible and disguisting mon such as scrafty is tier 3 is itself a great example of how dominant it is. however while being scary in the teambuilder i don't think its that amazing in the games itself. i decided to test it this season and i eneded up bringing it to all my games but 1. in practice it turned out that latios can pretty easily get a very strong hit or possibly a kill with draco in almost all games, it doesn't really do that much after that. paralysis pretty much destroys its utility, so you have to be scared of thundurus, steel types will take advantage of it, especially at -2, so its pretty hard to consider latios a broken or even a game changing mon. the last candidate i think is worth looking at is gothitelle. like i have described before, i don't think there is anything problematic about it at all, outside of the rain playstyle. however when paired with kingdra and thundurus-t it makes that playstyle pretty much impossible to fully prepare for, its not really weak to anything and the few checks to kingdra are easily trapped and removed. for me a good sign of rain becoming problematic is when i start considering running timid kingdra. i actually have done that twice this tournament and i almost won (if it wasn't for major chokes+hax) vs actuarily and did win against DaWoblefet, who are probably the two best bw players at the moment. perhaps if everyone starts running timid kingdra it will get a little weaker, but the fact that something that was considered to be an unviable meme for years turned out to be the right choice for multiple games at the highest level of bw does make me think. in the end im not sure we should make any changes, i guess i would pay the most attention to gothitelle, also im pretty certain that if we ban thundurus kingdra and latios will become broken. if there is any interest in experimenting with the tier, i'd like to propose hosting a bw, but fun tour, where all of latios, gothitelle and thundurus would be banned. this way we get to test if the metagame would become more fun without prankster thunder wave, while removing the most obvious beneficiaries of the ban (i think rain would be much easier to handle without gothitelle).

p.s. i will drop my teams once i have more time
 
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