Bulky OU Team (out of practice)

[Shurely]

Introduction
I haven't played this game since DPP and with XY coming out and my friends getting into it, I'm looking to get back into the game. I'm starting with BW because there are no mega evolutions and fairy type that will complicate me relearning the game. I also need to learn some of the new Pokemon. Back in DPP, my favorite teams to play were bulky offensive teams and that's what I'm looking into here. This is my first team I've made since DPP and would like some comments on what you guys think about it. It's been working out decently for me so far, but I still tend to lose to making some poor decisions and not understanding some of the newer Pokemon.

The Team

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Def / 16 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Ice Fang
- Roost

This is my physical wall. He hits fairly hard and has decent coverage while being able to tank big physical hits. If I'm worried about an ice move, I can go to pretty much anyone but Celebi, and for water, anyone but Heatran.

With Toxic Orb, he is safe to switch into status moves. EQ is here for STAB. Taunt is to prevent slower Pokemon from setting up and if I predict a switch, it's not a terrible move to hit an opposing Pokemon with (if I don't think they will be hit hard by my offensive moves). It also helps against some Pokemon who set up entry hazards and what not. Ice Fang is here for coverage against dragons and such. It's been very useful against Garchomps in my most recent testing. Roost is here to provide a reasonable recover along with Poison Heal. Overall have been very happy with Gliscor on this team. Just need to be better at predicting HP Ice.

The speed EV's are to out run Scizor to prevent him from setting up with taunt. The health EV's are apparently better for Poison Heal. The rest into Defense because he is my physical tank.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover

This is a physically defensive pokemon who checks a few things I've been struggling with and has a reliable recovery. If I'm worried about grass moves, I can go to Heatran, Celebi, or Jirachi.

All his EV's and abilities are set up to be more tanky. Earthquake is a strong STAB move and so is Scald. Scald's burn chance adds to his bulk. Toxic is to wear down tanks, and recover is to do exactly that.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 236 SDef / 252 HP / 20 Spd
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Body Slam
- Wish
- Stealth Rock

This is a bulky Pokemon with very good resistances. If I'm worried about Ground moves, I can swap into anything but Heatran and if its a fire move, I can go into anything but Celebi.

Wish is here for a recovery and overall team support. U-turn was here instead of SR but I dropped Bronzong (my original SR user) and so I decided to run SR on Jirachi. Body Slam is great for paralyzing and I like it better than Thunder Wave honestly. Iron Head is here for the ParaFlinching set.

The speed EV's are to outrun Breloom and Magnezone. The rest is set up to make him more bulky. I've been considering swapping his Spd to Def and making him more physically defensive ever since I added Celebi, but I am not sure. He was my main swap in for water moves up until Celebi joined the team.

Since my more recent update to this team, Jirachi (aside from Wish and SR) has seemed like kinda the weak link of the team right now. Though I have to say, ParaFlinch is a lot of fun and has won me some games. I've also been considering just swapping Iron Head and maybe Body Slam for moves with better coverage.

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 232 SDef / 248 HP / 28 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

This is my main special attacker. If I'm worried about grass moves, I can go into Jirachi, Heatran, or Celebi.

Volt Switch is a strong STAB move and allows it to switch out decently. Hydro Pump hits ridiculously hard and is another STAB move that. Will-O-Wisp is here to burn physical attackers and to help against some walls. Pain Split is a pretty decent recovery.

The SpA EV's are here to OHKO Gliscor with Hydro Pump. The rest is put in to make him more tanky.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- HP Ice
- Roar
- Earth Power

This is another strong special attacker who joined my team to replace Bronzong due to similar resistances. If I am worried about fighting moves, I can go into anything but Rotom, ground is anything but Jirachi, and water is anything but Gliscor.

Flash Fire allows him to swap into Fire attacks aimed at Jirachi and Celebi. Lava Plume hits pretty hard and can burn making him more defensive against physical attackers. HP Ice is here for coverage against dragons (if Jirachi dies) and to hit Air Balloon Heatran because that is perfectly safe counter to this build. (maybe protect instead of Earth Power) Roar is here for really fun prediction swaps and for a way to deal with set up Pokemon (My only decent response to set up sweepers). Toxic is now on Gastro so I am trying out Earth Power here for more coverage.

The EV's are for pure bulk. I've been considering swapping up his set. I have been liking how he is working on the team lately but I am not sure if I like only having Lava Plume.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SDef / 20 Spd
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Baton Pass
- Psychic

Celebi is a good Pokemon for this team. I've been struggling with this last slot and I decided this is the best at the moment. I've had a problem with bulky water types (not them killing me but I couldn't kill them). If I'm worrid about ice I can go into pretty much anything but gliscor. Dark, Fire, bug, ghost, poison, and flying can all be covered by Heatran.

Natural Cure is great for eating status's. Giga Drain is great STAB, a bit of recovery, and hurts those water types I was worried about. Recovery is just that. Baton Pass is for utility as it allows me to swap out of a Pursuit trap. and Psychic is here for coverage. This last slot is up in the air. I was using Thunder Wave but it felt like I just wasn't using the move. So Psychic is here for now till I feel I need a better move (considering Perish Song for BP teams and for another way to deal with set up sweepers).

The EV's are for bulk again and the speed is to outrun Magnezone.

Using the Team
I play this team by playing to the great resistances and coverage. There isn't a single weakness that I don't have more resistances to. Gliscor and Gyarados as well is steels natural resistances on Heatran and Jirachi provide good physical damage coverage (though I don't like no heals on Gyarados besides Wish). Jirachi, Celebi, Heatran, and Rotom are all EV'ed to take special hits, and all cover each others weaknesses well.

Old Pokemon
This team used to run with Bronzong (gyro ball/EQ/SR/HP ice) for his resistance and for SR and Latias (calm mind/roost/dragon pulse/substitute) instead of Heatran and Celebi. Both didn't feel like they were doing much. Bronzong was just setting up SR and eating hits, and Latias wasn't working out at all. I originally Swapped to Heatran and Breloom but Breloom (Swords dance/mach punch/bullet seed/spore) didn't feel bulky enough.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce

Problems
Could use some help deciding on my set for Heatran and Jirachi
Starting to doubt Gliscor. He keeps dying really easily to stuff. He works wonders against garchomp and haxorus and stuff like that, but that's aobut it. I think I might just be playing him wrong, or I'm not doing a good enough job at scouting my enemies team first because I keep miss guessing who carries Ice moves and such. Idk, maybe it was just a bad night of testing.

Edits
11/5/13 - Added who I can swap to if I'm worried about certain type moves vs each Pokemon, added problems
11/6/13 - Gastrodon replaces Gyarados. Earth Power > Toxic on Heatran because of Gastro addition. HP Ice > Protect on Heatran. Changed Problems section. Removed the last notes section.

 

[Reymedy]

Hello interesting team.

However, I can clearly notice how passive your team seems to be. You struggle to create a win situation because you have no true win condition. This is one of the things I'll be trying to fix during the rate. Indeed, you don't have any sweeper/scarfer to at least clean-up once you did some work with the pivoting your team is supposed to provide.

Now, these are the other things I wanna improve :

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- First, you're really Spikes weak. Good thing you have at least Taunt Gliscor, and a couple of pokemons able to threaten common spikers. However, against a Custap Skarm, you're be in an awful spot. I really think that Stall teams will eventually put Spikes at some point, and win the game from here because you don't have enough to shake them.
Ferrothorn can set-up on many members of your set, and doesnt care AT ALL too much about your offensive power, bar Heatran.

- Having a Non-Protect Gliscor and one steel pokemon weak to Fire/Ground means that Physical Dragons could really open a hole in your team. I can see DD Nite set-up on Gastrodon/Celebi and sweep from there if he has EQ as coverage move. This, or simply a CB.
It is also really true for stuff like SD Chomp.

- Don't let Lucario set-up (you probably won't have the choice though), with Ice Punch (most used coverage move on him) he sweeps you cleanly once he gets SD. And I mean, cleanly.

- Volcarona as last mon probably sweeps you, since you can't Roar it away anymore.

These are the main concerns. I'll try to fix it, and to make your team less passive. Because a team not preparing any win condition, can only possibly win against other unprepared teams.

The changes I propose :

- The first one is obvious. I want you to change that Jirachi for a Scarf set. You'll need then to give Heatran SR. I'll explain the Heatran set right after.
Giving Jirachi a Scarf will allow to finally revenge kill most of the annoying sweepers like Dragonite, while retaining the utility of Jirachi in your team. The moves will have to be Iron Head/ Ice Punch / U-Turn and Trick. I insist on the Trick because it will grealty help you by possibly luring Ferrothorn and others wall you can't break easily when facing defensive teams. On top of that, that could be a last-resort solution against a sweeping Luke, because he needs all his coverage moves to sweep you. You could use Fire Punch, but that's err.. way too weak.

- About Heatran. Get him a LavaPlume/SR/Protect/Toxic set. You almost always need Protect on Heatran, to check choiced mons (especially Terrakion) but also to increase the Leftovers recovery by stalling turns. It is pretty useful because Heatran doesn't have any recovery move. Toxic goes well with Protect and solves the Volcarona issue.

Now I want to change Gliscor, because honnestly I don't find him that useful. I want you to get a decent win condition instead. You'll be a bit weaker to Terrakion, but since you have Scarf Jirachi to revenge kill him, you should be fine if you can play around the move he gets locked him (that's where Heatran's Protect will help). Be careful about the CB version (as Gastrodon/Celebi tank the other) and about the move he choses (don't bring Celebi on a X-Scissor !).

So for the last change I'm puzzled. I could see a Dragonite going in here pretty well, but also a Terrakion.
Since you probably don't want to be any weak to Lucario and Skarmory/Ferrothorn, I'd just say : Go for Terrakion CB (but you can also give a try to a Sub/Roost/DD Nite, or a CB).
It's a pretty self-sufficient win condition, perfect to provide a good way to end the game when you're playing passive balanced teams like that. There is nothing that Terrakion can't break after some turns, as long as you give him easy switch-ins (thanks to your pivoting).

And yea, consider HIGHLY Thunder-Wave over Giga Drain on Celebi (less set-up bait, and you really rarely need the two moves, you have Gastrodon with Toxic for Rotom-W and other Waters anyway), and maybe Ice Beam over Scald on Gastrodon, for coverage matters.


Sets :

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Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Serene Grace
(252 Atk / 96 Spe / 160 HP)
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- U-Turn
- Ice Punch
- Trick

Terrakion CB @ http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/terrakion

I hope that I helped, good luck with your team.

TL;DR :

Hide

Scarf Jirachi
Heatran => SR/Protect/Toxic
Gliscor for Terrakion CB

 

[Shurely]

Remedy

Thanks a lot for the tips. Today's testing really showed me how weak I am to spikes. For Skarm and Ferrothorn, Heatran forces swaps and Taunt stops set ups. Maybe that isn't reliable but so far it has been working fine. Usually don't see too many spikes till later into the game. I've been wondering if I should work in a rapid spin to deal with it because they definitely do hurt. Maybe you're Scarf Rachi will help.

Gliscor with protect > Taunt maybe to scout out Ice Punches? You don't like him but he is a great response to Scizor, Garchomp, Terrakion, Haxorus, and Tyranitar. He is the main one I bring in against these threats. Maybe I should be doing that differently? Any advice on to handle these specific pokemon?

Lucario does seem like a problem and my only way to stop people from setting up is Roar on Heatran. Volcarona has sweep the original build of this team back when I had DD Gyarados and before Heatran.

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As for your changes. I am okay with giving Heatran SR and I like the Jirachi set. He was feeling iffy on the team, especially now that Wish isn't as huge. I am a little worried that he won't be able to take hits as much. He was really good at taking care of special attacking Dragons so as long as this set can handle that, I'm fine with that. It does seem like it should be able to. The Trick is a nice answer to a few things.

Heatran's original set was Lava Plume / Toxic / Protect / Roar. I just didn't like how other Heatran's were giving me trouble but I will go back to that set but with SR. It was working alright before.

I like how your choice of a CB Terrakion works but I am a bit worried on how to play this team against the threats I listed up above. I was looking into Dragonite as well so maybe I'll look into him a bit more too.

As for Celebi, it would be Thunder Wave > Psychic as Giga Drain is what hits water types so hard and that was his original point in being added to the team. I like Scald so far on Gastrodon.

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I'll look into your changes a bit more tomorrow and tweak some stuff around. Thanks again for your time and suggestions.

 

[Reymedy]

Hello.

You got it wrong, it's not that I "dont like Gliscor" because he's uncool or what. It is just that I don't find him useful in this particular situation (hence why I don't "like" him). See the exact sentence "Now I want to change Gliscor, because honnestly I don't find him that useful." So yea, I wanted to make this point crystal clear because implying that a rater is advising you following his personal liking about pokemons is.. err.

"he is a great response to Scizor, Garchomp, Terrakion, Haxorus, and Tyranitar."
While it's true, his role grealty collaspes with your other mons role.
Scizor can be handled cleanly by Heatran/Physical Gastrodon.
Garchomp is easily revenge killed by Jirachi now. And almost all your pokemons check him (Celebi can Twave, Rotom-W can WoW, Gastrodon could Ice Beam if you give it to him etc.)
Terrakion has been mentionned in my rate.
Haxorus is never played. And if you meet him, it's pretty much the same shit as Garchomp.
Tyranitar can be checked by Gastrodon. The only version able to break through him would be CB locked into Crunch (guess what, that's exactly what Terrakion is looking for). Terrakion resists his stabs, Jirachi revenge kill him... and so on.

Noticed that none of the stuff you mention can switch in on Terrakion. So you're not being really weaker.

Now, you must understand that you probably can't afford Gliscor, since his role is already "almost" covered. You can probably find a couple of little things that he can do, but ask yourself if you can't do something better with that team slot. Because a pokemon able to "semi-deal" with 5 pokemons (decently handled already) in the entire metagame should really not be in a team in my opinion.

"Heatran's original set was Lava Plume / Toxic / Protect / Roar. I just didn't like how other Heatran's were giving me trouble but I will go back to that set but with SR. It was working alright before."
Now you have Terrakion CB, ready to abuse any free switch in a opposing Heatran could offer.

The reason why you're reluctant is the gameplay change. You basically built your team ignoring a lot of requirements. You need to have a built-in win condition. When you look at your team, you need to be able to see HOW you're gonna win games.
You do the pivoting fine with this one, and cover the metagame decently by stacking a lot of defensive pivots, but you need something to sweep and get you the win once you create an opportunity and this is what Terrakion does the best.
Finally, don't be so afraid of "switch in" on everything. With Scarf Jirachi and CB Terrakion, trust me, the pressure you apply goes to another damn level, leaving less room for your opponent to pull off sweeps. Ergo, you don't need to passively try in vain to cover everything.

You need to understand this point, because it will improve a lot your building skills, and at the same time your battling skills because you will be able to figure out strategies.
Long story short, instead of thinking "I will pivot and play turn by turn, untill something happens", you'll be forced to think "I will pivot, in order to weaken his X, so my Y can sweep in the end".

I hope I made it clear, and I really hope that it helped you in some way.

EDIT : I told you in my first post that you probably prefer Ice Beam on Gastrodon, but I'd not drop Toxic.

 

[Shurely]

Remedy

haha I knew you meant you didn't like him for the team and not in general :P Bit of a miss communication I guess :P I wasn't saying you were advising me on your personal liking or whatever.

I can see now how to beat those threats. I guess they were a bigger problem when I was running with no Celebi or Gastrodon. Seems like the team will be fine without Gliscor and he was feeling a bit weak on the team. I'm not sure how I feel about losing the taunt but I'll swap it and see how it feels.

I will make the changes you suggest and test them out. See if I like the new feel. Will take me a little to get used to it but should be alright.

edit: this does open me up to another ground weakness which I was already being hurt by spikes bad.

edit2: what do you think about dropping toxic on gastrodon for Ice Beam or Toxic on Heatran for Roar? Trying to decide if I need 2 Toxic on this team.