Tournament BDSP Premier League II: Format Discussion

[Lumii]

Hello there! This year, Theia, uhBella, and I will be the hosts of BDSP Premier League. However, as we approach the start of BDSP Premier League II, it is necessary to decide the tournament format and the tiers that will be represented.

For this year, the format will remain 6 teams and 8 slots, which is how it was in the first edition of this tournament. Regarding slots, however, we would like to open up a vote. Three slots are already locked: two slots for BDSP OU and one slot for BDSP OU Suspect, which will ban or unban certain Pokemon from the BDSP OU Metagame. However, after this, there will be a choice between five of the following 6 options.

• BDSP Ubers
• BDSP UU
• BDSP RU
• BDSP NU
• BDSP PU
• BDSP LC

You will be able to choose which tier to EXCLUDE in the Google Form here.

Feel free to post your thoughts below in this thread, but please keep all discussions as civil as possible.

 

[Tbolt]

What would be the target of an OU suspect?

 

[TyCarter]

Gonna speak on this as someone who has played most of the lower tiers on here.

UU should absolutely stay, I think most things that were problematic for the tier (Celebi, Raikou etc) being gone makes it a balanced tier and a fun tier as well that allows for some variety. Of course as someone who's tried to work towards improving the tier I am naturally a bit biased. It was also the most played tier out of all the tiers during bdsp sendoff tour so it also has that going for it.

PU deserves a shot since there's an actual playerbase there and if we were just going by number of signups from the 6 opens from this year's Grand Slam, PU had by far the most although this could also be because PU hasn't had an individual since kickoff and sendoff is a bit of a weird categorization. Not to mention that one month where several lower tiers got unexpected drops and stuff.

RU, had the lowest number of signups in grand slam and it was a tier that was plagued by numerous issues throughout its history whether it was the Exploud suspect, Critdra and Venomoth utterly destroying RU during alpha, etc. There was also that time when Cress and Gyara dropped and made the tier borderline unplayable and in general just felt like a crapshoot. I think RU in its current state has a shot to really shine and most of the unexpected drops it got from that same batch can help breathe new life into the tier. (IE Bronzong kinda helped alleviate the tier's issue in handling Nidoqueen defensively) The only other issue I can think of atm that could be an issue in RU is maybe Absol but its not warping the tier to the point of being unplayable. I think RU's in a much better state as I said before even if I may be a bit biased.

NU also is a fine tier and is a must in my books. I enjoy playing it and building in the tier.

This leaves Ubers and LC which are probably the ones I am most likely voting to leave out. Ubers just had their first individual and it was ok? I don't mind the tier but it did feel like a crapshoot trying to play the tier at times. I'm not super sure how much of a playerbase there is and the tier hasn't really gotten its resources up to date and what not from what I can tell.

LC kinda faces the issue that many other LC tiers have with speedtie wars and what not. Bringing Munchlax back and banning berry juice was probably the right step in the right direction. It did show a lot of interest with that said with signup numbers but I personally am not the biggest fan of LC but I digress.

Realistically, there's like 3 options that could get voted out: Ubers, LC and RU even if I really don't want to see RU get voted out as I want the tier to succeed. LC has a shot of thriving again with the work that Lalaya and Kodiak_45 has done with trying to fix up LC. Ubers probably has the weakest case of staying right now if you ask me.

Edit: on a side note voting out RU would also be like an awkward tier gap lmao so yeah it's probably ubers ngl.

Edit 2: Now that I've heard things from the perspective of Kodiak_45, I am convinced LC should be given a legitimate shot to see if signup numbers could be sufficient.

 

[Lalaya]

What would be the target of an OU suspect?

Things like Weavile being banned, Latias being banned, or some mons being UN-banned, since there are various opinions about things like Manaphy or Gengar (or even rain, surprisingly enough) that people want answered; ultimately it depends and we'll see which ones to apply

 

[igiveuponaname]

What exactly led to the decision that one of the non OU tiers should be chosen to not receive representation in PL?

Edit: Voted UU since that's the least likely to get banned and I'd rather not see any tier not get representation. If it somehow does get banned, I give TyCarter and Grabby full permission to crucify me.

 

[Lalaya]

What exactly led to the decision that one of the non OU tiers should be chosen to not receive representation in PL?

(tbh it could still be under debate) but imo OU needs enough representation that is not getting with only two slots otherwise, and some people voiced for the suspect slot too, but in general only 2 OU slots in a 8-tier format is pretty lackluster as OU is our main tier.

 

[Elfuseon]

Even if bdsp lc is prob even a worse metagame than rby lc, i voted to exclude bdsp ubers since the pool of available pokemon is very little and all the games looks the same to me. Im not an expert at all in bdsp ubers so its a very personnal and biase opinion. You'll tell me that bdsp lc has prob the same problem and you're definitely right but i had to choose and i cant go against lvl 5 mons entering the big field.

 

[Tbolt]

Realistically, there's like 3 options that could get voted out: Ubers, LC and RU

Yeah that's the feeling I generally got from thinking about the formats. As Carter has said himself already, it's a bit awkward to cut a hole in the middle of the tiering pyramid, so you'd most likely cut one off from the end. I personally have put a bit of effort into the Ubers tier, so it would be a bit sad to see that one go, but it is what it is sometimes.

Things like Weavile being banned, Latias being banned, or some mons being UN-banned, since there are various opinions about things like Manaphy or Gengar (or even rain, surprisingly enough) that people want answered; ultimately it depends and we'll see which ones to apply

I personally think the tier is fine as it is. If enough people agree with me and nobody comes to a consensus to what should be tested, would that suspect slot become a regular BDSP OU slot?

If it somehow does get banned, I give TyCarter and Grabby full permission to crucify me.

 

[Lalaya]

I personally think the tier is fine as it is. If enough people agree with me and nobody comes to a consensus to what should be tested, would that suspect slot become a regular BDSP OU slot?

Obviously sure, 3 OUs could be a feasible format too; I personally prefer to have a OU (Suspect) slot just to add spice to the competition while looking at the most controversial parts of our current OU (especially what would happen if we listened to the people that wants Weavile gone :look:)

 

[Tuthur]

In my opinion, BDSP Ubers and BDSP LC should both be in. These are the metagames that saw the least changes since last BDSPPL and had the most comptitive playerbase last year, imo. These tiers are also far easier to pick up for non-mainers, which are definitely going to be sloted in many slots given BDSP lower tiers limited mainerbase size.

I would say there is a huge overlap between the playerbase of the standard lower tiers (UU, RU, NU, and PU) and that this playerbase is quite small. UU, RU, and NU were already the most suffering tiers last year and with all the tiershifts they went through since then and the overall disinterest in BDSP, I think it will only be worse this time around.

Cutting of these randomly is a bit odd, but I do believe it is the best solution if we want to go for 3 OU / 1 LC / 1 Ubers / 3 Lower Tiers.

However, I thought about possible alternatives that could allow to not cut any lower tiers and solve the problem of too many tiers for not enough players.

1st solution, BO3 Lower Tiers

BDSP OU
BDSP OU
BDSP OU
BDSP OU Suspect
BDSP Ubers
BDSP LC
BDSP PU
BDSP BO3 (UU, RU, NU)

BDSP PU is the most popular lower tiers, hence I believe it could have its own slot. The playerbase overlap makes it that a BO3 slot could be justified. It allows for representation of every lower tiers, while solving the lack of players issue.

2nd solution, pick format

BDSP OU
BDSP OU
BDSP OU
BDSP OU Suspect
BDSP Ubers
BDSP LC
BDSP Lower Tier picked by the team
BDSP Lower Tier picked by the opposing team

Quite unorthodoxal system, so let me explain it. While submitting their lineup for the week, each team also submits one lower tier, their player in "BDSP Lower Tier picked by the team" will play this tier, while their player in "BDSP Lower Tier picked by the opposing team" will play an unknown tier picked by the opposing team.

Both of those look quite silly, so I don't know where to set my expectations on them being possible alternatives. However, either way, do not BDSP LC and BDSP Ubers.

 

[Kodiak_45]

Disclaimer

I will only comment on BDSP Little Cup. As a dedicated LC main, I know nothing about any of the usage based tiers or ubers.

Pros

The pool of Little Cup eligible pokemon in BDSP is small. As such the tier is heavily centralized around its main threats, munchlax, drifloon, and abra. In a majority of scenarios, 2/3 of these mons are required on all teams. Now here is where most people take a surface level glance at the tier and say it sucks, or its boring, or whatever. And they would be wrong. With team compositions being similar, it takes deep knowledge of available mons, items, and movepools to both build and pilot teams competitively. When you share anywhere from 2-4 mons with an opponent, you need to find ways to break the mirror. For instance, Koffing using psybeam to hit croagunk on the switch-in to clear a path for carvhana, or trapinch using lazer focus to trap a munchlax with defense boosts from curse is what makes BDSP LC, well BDSP LC. The tier is a puzzle that starts in the builder. What will YOU do to break the mirror? The sky is, quite honestly, the limit!

Cons

Participation from the larger LC community is not a guarantee. DPP is beloved by a large portion of LC's tournament mainstays, and to them BDSP is a bastardized version of DPP that lost its charm in its modernity. This was only made worse once BDSP as a whole was revealed to be a standalone side meta, and it was largely shunned by the LC community. After the most recent tiering changes in berry juice and light clay being banned, and munchlax being unbanned, there were a conversations about how they thought BDSP LC was in a much better state. Given that these tiering changes happened mid BDSP LC Open, there wasn't a chance for the community to try out the new meta in a tournament setting. Because of this, I have no clue what the BDSP LC signup situation will be like.

Misconceptions

LC kinda faces the issue that many other LC tiers have with speedtie wars and what not.

This, I feel is a terrible and generalized take on Little Cup as a whole. In the Current Generation, SV, speed ties are an issue due to the extremely small viable mon pool and horribly low power level of a Pre-Home and DLC meta. I will also grant you the SwSh meta too, as it did have many games decided by speed ties, but the factors causing this issue are not present in BDSP LC. I can see how someone could arrive at this opinion looking at the speed tiers document in the BDSP LC Thread, which list all possible mons and what their possible speeds are. However, most of the mons listed in this resource have never been used in a tournament setting. The 19 Speed tier looks crowded with a whopping 11 mons, of which only Abra, Ponyta, Taillow, and Staryu are even viable. Further more, none of those 4 mons switch in on each other. I'll go back through the replays of the BDSP LC Open and look for speed ties, but I honestly don't remember any. I am not saying that there weren't any speed ties, but if they were it was an uncommon occurrence.