Resource BDSP OU Viability Rankings

[KaenSoul]

Vileplume from UR to C

It still deserves a place on the viability ranking, it may not have much of a place on sun over venusaur or victreebel but it has a place on stall.
There are a few factors that set Vileplume apart from Tang and Rose, as it has a better balance of physical and special bulk that let it take hits much easier when scouting or when you are in situations where is better to stay to prevent a teammate from taking damage, as you can see:

0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 144-170 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 226-268 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 273-321 (77.1 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roserade: 320-378 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 289-341 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roserade: 338-398 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(maybe not the best calcs, mostly to show the difference in bulk, dont relly on a grass/poison to check lucario)

Now, Vileplume is more than a punch bag, as it counts with some neat moves like Leech seed, Toxic, Sleep Powder, Stune Powder, Aromatherapy and a very unique healing move in Strength Sap that often force the opponent to switch out or let you bring a different mon much easier. There is also Effect spore being annoying at times but is not that good in this meta.
But at the end of the day, what really give it a niche, is being a middle point between Tang and Rose, as you may want a bulky grass on your team, but also need a poison to type to not be TSpike weak, and need more physical bulk that what Rose has. It may not be the best mon but it does have a niche.
A high ladder replay with Vileplume saving the day
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1574276603

Also Poliwrath for S+, no, i'm not going to elaborate

 

[Lily]

Garchomp S- to S - Garchomp is ridiculously good. SD is insanely threatening and tankchomp is super underexplored as a check to all kinds of mons and an extremely reliable SR setter (seriously, nothing actually consistently switches into and removes on it). Packs so much into a single slot and is imo the clear #2 in the tier rn.

Rotom-Wash S- to A+ - think this is kind of overrated but it's still the 2nd best momentum grabber in the tier. offensive is def better than defensive but defensive is often necessary, shrug. I don't mind where it stays since it's a clear #4 but it feels a fair bit worse than sciz / chomp / weav.

Slowbro A to A+ - top 5 mon genuinely. look at every single mon above it on this list. it has good matchups against all but zam, clef, lati and rotom, most of which can't even hard into it. ridiculously good at patching up holes against glisc weav chomp gatr tran azu nape etc. it's insane pls use it more i went 4-0 with it in bdsp pl just to prove a point. please understand how broken regen is lol especially in a tier like this

Starmie A to A- - still good, just not as good as it was before. doesn't match up into any top threats very well and is just barely too slow. shits on quite a few rockers so i like bulky more than offensive - offensive theoretically has no switchins but also gets no real opportunities to throw off attacks most of the time and has to recover more often than it'd like to. maybe specs is the wave, idk.

Azumarill A+ to A- - call it a hot take but i think azu's a little ass tbh, raw breaking power is incredible ofc but so is crawdaunt's and that just tends to be better most of the time unless you're rly rly in dire need of azu's defensive utility. belly drum is pretty garbage too unfortunately

Staraptor B to B+ - this things actually really good, highly recommend using it, could probs move up to b+ bc its way better than every single mon in this rank easily

Mamoswine A to A- - hasn't gotten worse or anything it was just ranked too high to begin with, weav is the better offensive ice type and chomper ground type, washtom and zor on top doesn't help so, mamo's a hard fit despite being pretty good.

Magnezone A- to B+ - not good enough at trapping the tier's best steel and skarm isn't really a popular enough mon for it to keep zone in the As. not that hard to switch into either w/ glisc and chomp everywhere, though the latter doesnt reeeeeally like taking specs flash cannon. it's good tho. just awkward.

thoughts i dont wanna elaborate on:
Blissey - i feel like this should be lower but i don't have an argument other than gut feeling so i'm not going to
Dragonite - what i said about blissey altho i dont feel as strongly
Shaymin - this mon sucks ngl
Togekiss - this things scary af and could even be higher but it doesnt get used much so

medicham should be ranked somewhere

https://pokepast.es/80ca0d4dee5ecc87 here's my teams from bdsp pl, this tier is fun but people need to stop gravitating towards weird unaclef glisc fat stuff that relies way too much on not losing instead of winning. lots and lots of room for exploration post-latios, give it a try and you'll be surprised!

 

[dudebones]

Does anyone else agree with me that now that Latios is gone Scizor's power level is not nearly what it once was?

I find that SpDef Scizor can be a complete waste of a slot on a lot of teams, especially if it is burnt by Rotom-W will o wisp or Heatran Flame Body.

Personally, I think Rotom-W and Gliscor belong in the S tier and maybe Scizor should be S-.

Would love some thoughts on these proposed changes

 

[Lalaya]

Does anyone else agree with me that now that Latios is gone Scizor's power level is not nearly what it once was?

I find that SpDef Scizor can be a complete waste of a slot on a lot of teams, especially if it is burnt by Rotom-W will o wisp or Heatran Flame Body.

Personally, I think Rotom-W and Gliscor belong in the S tier and maybe Scizor should be S-.

Would love some thoughts on these proposed changes

my personal opinion is that Scizor is still an extremely valuable glue to most offense/bo teams thanks to eating rather decently both Weavile and Latias while potentially threatening Alakazam; the power vacuum left by Latios was already mostly filled by them, but thanks to it leaving im actually not forced to run SpDef Scizor (128 impish is a good balance that gives you guaranteed survival against Latias and lets you eat Throat Chops decently)

 

[dudebones]

my personal opinion is that Scizor is still an extremely valuable glue to most offense/bo teams thanks to eating rather decently both Weavile and Latias while potentially threatening Alakazam; the power vacuum left by Latios was already mostly filled by them, but thanks to it leaving im actually not forced to run SpDef Scizor (128 impish is a good balance that gives you guaranteed survival against Latias and lets you eat Throat Chops decently)

The more defensive set sounds solid. I use Heatran as my form of that check, though throat chop with prior damage can be more threatening.

I just feel like now-a-days scizor is an easy gliscor defog/roost or a free switch into Heatran for a flame body chance and rocks/heavy magma storm hit.

 

[PepeBowie]

Does anyone else agree with me that now that Latios is gone Scizor's power level is not nearly what it once was?

I find that SpDef Scizor can be a complete waste of a slot on a lot of teams, especially if it is burnt by Rotom-W will o wisp or Heatran Flame Body.

Personally, I think Rotom-W and Gliscor belong in the S tier and maybe Scizor should be S-.

Would love some thoughts on these proposed changes

I couldn't disagree more with this. I am going to expose the 3 arguments that I consider most important.

· Scizor is an essential piece for any team that doesn't want to lose to Weavile and Zam. It is without a doubt the best answer against the two biggest threats in the metagame. It is true that he can't single handle both: SpDef can't take two TChops/Assurances after rocks and Impish struggles against Zam on switch-in but it is still a solid answer to this demons.

· Yes, Heatran is waking up and people are beginning to see its potential, something that does not benefit Szicor at all but it is not being left behind or losing performance in the metagame. The rise in popularity of Latias (a natural replacement for her male duo) makes strategies like DragMag weaker, since she has not the same potencial as Latios. This makes Zor an even better response vs. Latias than it was vs. Latios. Also, while til now we've seen almost every Clef running Unaware, we are starting to see much more versatility which are weaker to boosted Bullet Punch.

· I always put Flygon as an example of a mon that is decent at a lot of things but doesn't excel at one. He is a decent sweeper, a decent defogger, a decent revenge killer etc etc. Scizor is VERY GOOD at a lot of things and arguably top 2 defogger, top 2 pivot and offensive 6zor can be one of the most dangerous threats vs non Heatran teams.

 

[Lalaya]

Hello hello, sorry for making you wait but we have our third VR update, both because the meta changed a fair lot from post-Gengar to now, and we wanted to push an update before our Summer Seasonal starts, so here you go!

Rises:

B+ > A-
UR > B+
C > B-
A+ > S-
A+ > S-
UR > B
A- > A
A+ > S-
A- > A
B > B+
A- > A
B- > B
UR > C
B > B+
B > B+
UR > A
S- > S

Drops:
A+ > A
B- > UR
B > B-
A+ > A
C > UR
B > C
B- > C
B- > UR
B+ > B
A > A-
B+ > B
B- > C
B > B-
S > S-
B+ > B-
C > UR
A > A-
A > A-
B+ > B
B- > C

As always, let us know if you have any questions, potential nominations for a future VR and if you wanna know the reasoning about certain drops/rises!*

*may or may not reserve the right to do a post with personal opinions later​

 

[dudebones]

Hello hello, sorry for making you wait but we have our third VR update, both because the meta changed a fair lot from post-Gengar to now, and we wanted to push an update before our Summer Seasonal starts, so here you go!

Rises:

B+ > A-
UR > B+
C > B-
A+ > S-
A+ > S-
UR > B
A- > A
A+ > S-
A- > A
B > B+
A- > A
B- > B
UR > C
B > B+
B > B+
UR > A
S- > S

Drops:
A+ > A
B- > UR
B > B-
A+ > A
C > UR
B > C
B- > C
B- > UR
B+ > B
A > A-
B+ > B
B- > C
B > B-
S > S-
B+ > B-
C > UR
A > A-
A > A-
B+ > B
B- > C

As always, let us know if you have any questions, potential nominations for a future VR and if you wanna know the reasoning about certain drops/rises!*

*may or may not reserve the right to do a post with personal opinions later​

I really like these changes. I still sometimes think Weavile can be played around easily with protect users, but i can appreciate it's position at the top. I also think Suicune has emerged as a very potent threat that can claim 1-2 pokemon if played properly.

This meta is really cool right now, I find that balance and HO have the ability to actually beat fat stalls and I think seeing these pokemon that are so undervalued in SSH OU shine in this meta is fantastic

 

[xyeu]

what made gliscor, heatran, mew, celebi, poliwrath, and slowking rise? and what made crawdaunt, mamoswine, scizor, skarmory, slowbro, and weezing drop?

 

[KrookKing]

I just realized Suicune wasnt even ranked lmaoooo, whoops

 

[Lalaya]

what made gliscor, heatran, mew, celebi, poliwrath, and slowking rise? and what made crawdaunt, mamoswine, scizor, skarmory, slowbro, and weezing drop?

Personal opinion, not collective:
Rises:
- Heatran and Gliscor: basically ever present glues that have a LOT of utility, almost so that youd be hard pressed into dropping either one in most kinds of standard offense or stall
- Mew: can do anything, so it's hard on counter on paper and lately it's quite good as a rocker that can't be beaten by common defogger or by taking most standard teams by surprise with its immense coverage (Beam - Flame - EQ mostly relevant, among all the moves it has)
- Celebi: first ranking, but I think it's a Grass with good bulk and lots of compression - rocks, U-turn, Thunder Wave, Healing Wish among its possible sets, be defensive or offensive
- Poliwrath: basically essential stall glue at the moment, since it eats Crawdaunt and Feraligatr for breakfast, which is VERY important for stall to function at the moment and basically beats any other defensive water because of this
- Slowking: honestly could have stayed there but still softchecking Alakazam and Latias in a single slot is good for balance teams

Drops:
- Crawdaunt: offense is as efficient as ever, stall has Poliwrath; tl;dr is just that the meta adapted to it, although it's still a VERY prominent force in it
- Mamoswine: Strong, but hard to fit thanks to the presence of Rotom-Wash, and Life Orb Freeze Dry is the only set capable of beating it, and only on the switch; that aside, it's also softchecked by other mons that are vaguely decent in the metagame thanks to its poor Speed, or they're Slowbro, or Mamoswine itself isnt just that justifiable to run over Weavile
- Scizor: honestly debatable but the power ceiling dropped a bit lately and Scizor has problems in a meta full of Weaviles that can still 2HKO it, Heatran, and co; still a perfectly viable glue but Defog sets are just inoffensive and SD sets currently are very hard to pull off; I predict a little resurgence of offensive Zor eventually, but eh
- Skarmory and Slowbro: both are basically just not enough for the current meta, especially Skarmory being a fake resist to any currently available physical attacker, and in a meta with Magnezone, Rotoms, Heatran and co really doesnt do any favor; Slowbro is more arguable fitting better in balance, but still has the problem that the currently available waters and Weavile can just steamroll through
- Weezing: honestly I would have left it B-

I just realized Suicune wasnt even ranked lmaoooo, whoops

what gaining Pressure does to a mf

 

[658Greninja]

Hello hello, sorry for making you wait but we have our third VR update, both because the meta changed a fair lot from post-Gengar to now, and we wanted to push an update before our Summer Seasonal starts, so here you go!

Rises:

B+ > A-
UR > B+
C > B-
A+ > S-
A+ > S-
UR > B
A- > A
A+ > S-
A- > A
B > B+
A- > A
B- > B
UR > C
B > B+
B > B+
UR > A
S- > S

Drops:
A+ > A
B- > UR
B > B-
A+ > A
C > UR
B > C
B- > C
B- > UR
B+ > B
A > A-
B+ > B
B- > C
B > B-
S > S-
B+ > B-
C > UR
A > A-
A > A-
B+ > B
B- > C

As always, let us know if you have any questions, potential nominations for a future VR and if you wanna know the reasoning about certain drops/rises!*

*may or may not reserve the right to do a post with personal opinions later​

Poliwrath in B tier but Hippo gets UR’d? Someone explain this to me, an outsider.

 

[Lalaya]

Poliwrath in B tier but Hippo gets UR’d? Someone explain this to me, an outsider.

Poliwrath is a very good glue and instrumental piece on stall teams because it gives them key resistances they otherwise don't have, most importantly Feraligatr and Crawdaunt, and generally has plenty of good matchups to find at least once for every battle, being a good phazer and Scald user

Hippowdon, on the other hand, gives nothing that you can't find on other available Grounds, and Gliscor and Garchomp are good in this tier for their qualities in all intents or purposes Hippowdon should cover, and losing Toxic means he has no way of doing actual damage to its Ground-type brethren, Rotom-Wash and basically half the relevant tier; not having key resistances, being extremely passive, doing a poor job at setting rocks and a even worse job at phazing (since it cant phaze Fera, Latias or Azumarill away without getting a lot of damage or dying outright) means that it has no place in any OU team. It HAD a niche into tanking and KOing Gengar back, at least

 

[VannAccessible]

I was wondering why Heracross wasn’t ranked for a while.

It turns out a decently fast physical breaker than can beat Gliscor, Tangrowth, and Clefable is pretty friggin scary.

 

[viet noa]

suicune not being high tier because of pressure makes sense, because its now able to passively threaten opponents more effectively, but as someone who admittedly hasnt played in a while, why was suicune unranked to begin with? even with bulky water competition, its combination of speed and ridiculous bulk has made it a unique defensive wincon (or standard wall)

 

[BT89]

how’d entei get up there?

 

[agslash23]

Yay, Heracross is finally B-ranked.

On that note, some question about rises - what enhanced Azelf and Nidoking?

Also, what keeps Garchomp at S- and prevents it to rise to S? It seems near-mandatory on offensive teams as a ground type that breaks fatter teams really well, and can also set rocks

 

[Lalaya]

I was wondering why Heracross wasn’t ranked for a while.

mostly because its a Staraptor but in the expense of speed it doesnt kill itself that quick
but its the "being revengekilled by a large portion of the metagame" the issue that prevented us to see Heracross shining as a decent niche option

suicune not being high tier because of pressure makes sense, because its now able to passively threaten opponents more effectively, but as someone who admittedly hasnt played in a while, why was suicune unranked to begin with?

there was no need of suicune in a tier with huge water breakers and with tier shifts ago that punished these kind of slow wincons
manaphy was just better for all intents and purposes, latios was still a good check to it thanks to cm or specs tbolt and not ppstalling the threats you should beat is HUGE
it went from a generic water cmind user back to the powerhouse that is pressure cune (also nobody really bothered to use it anyway, first to try it was FailureGirl)

how’d entei get up there?

Choice Band Sacred Fire
(unironically its just bc the tier doesnt like that move at all LMAO)

On that note, some question about rises - what enhanced Azelf and Nidoking?

Also, what keeps Garchomp at S- and prevents it to rise to S? It seems near-mandatory on offensive teams as a ground type that breaks fatter teams really well, and can also set rocks

Azelf is mostly because being an offensive Psychic in this tier is, even with Weavile in the tier, extraordinarily good, especially when you can beat Scizor AS a Psychic, something that Zam and Latias can't do, and Plot or even just 3 Atks Azelf is lethal as a lure
Nidoking is just cheering alongside the road benefitting from the bans here and there and cementing itself as a very strong offensive force with no clear switchins

For Garchomp I think, while really useful and easily splashable in most offense teams (especially since people discovered how ridiculous LO rocks is), idt its that great at doing its usual jobs
it just stands there, doesnt QUITE kill things like clef, weav, tias n co and while still perfectly useful it doesnt beat the one mon he needs to voltblock, and lastly there's still some overlap between it and Gliscor
it's good, sometimes very good, but I find the SD sets harder to fit, Scarf not being that crazy powerhouse and LO rocks not that capable of lasting
S tier is only reserved to something you can truly say "ok just put it in there and it will work against the meta teams (Sciz) or that will wreak havoc because of its OUTSTANDING qualities (Weav and Tios)" for me and i dont think Garchomp is *there* yet

 

[igiveuponaname]

From B- to C or UR

I think it's safe to say that Shaymin is outclassed in pretty much every way by other relevant grass types in the tier ever since Celebi was added to the metagame.

Defensively, it's outclassed by Tangrowth and Celebi. Tangrowth has immense physical bulk and Regenerator, giving it tons of staying power over the course of a match. Celebi has the same level of bulk as Shaymin, but has a useful Fighting resistance, as well as access to Recover, which is much more useful than Shaymin's Synthesis and/or Rest.

Offensively, it's severely outclassed by every ranked grass type except Tangrowth (though that's arguable). Shaymin has no boosting capabilities outside of Swords Dance (with it's astounding physical movepool of Bullet Seed, Quick Attack, Facade, and Giga Impact), and Growth (not really useful outside of sun, which if you're using that, just use Venusaur as a Growth grass type). Shaymin's only claim to fame offensively is Seed Flare, a very good move, but exploitable with its 8PP. It doesn't help that grass STAB in a tier dominated by Scizor and Heatran won't be that useful. Air Slash is also nice I guess, in order to beat other grass types, but it's not enough to help Shaymin standout in OU.

Shaymin also has little utility to offer that can't be done better by other grass types. I could go on about each of the ranked grass types and their respectively utility, but we need only look at Celebi to see how outclassed Shaymin is in this department. The only utility Shaymin has to offer is Aromatherapy and Healing Wish, both of which Celebi can do. However, Celebi also has access to Stealth Rocks, Thunder Wave, and U-Turn, you could even make the case for lesser used utility moves on Celebi such as dual screens and Perish Song.

Heatran and Scizor have also risen quite a bit in usage in the past few months, making it quite difficult for Shaymin to accomplish anything offensively when they quad resist its STAB. Taunt Heatran is capable shutting down SubSeed sets, and is always capable of winning the 1v1. Scizor is able to outlast Shaymin with Roost, and U-Turns on it. The rise in usage from these two alone cause so many issues for Shaymin that it's worth dropping down to C or UR.

Usage Stats February

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-02/gen8bdspou-1760.txt

Usage Stats May

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-05/gen8bdspou-1760.txt

Essentially, Shaymin brings nothing unique to the tier, and what little it offers is outclassed by better and more common grass types. On top of that, the rise in usage from Heatran and Scizor severely hurt Shaymin, who can't do anything to them. Those are the main reasons why I believe it deserves to be lowered or dropped from the viability rankings.

 

[Xilefi]

From B- to C or UR

I think it's safe to say that Shaymin is outclassed in pretty much every way by other relevant grass types in the tier ever since Celebi was added to the metagame.

Defensively, it's outclassed by Tangrowth and Celebi. Tangrowth has immense physical bulk and Regenerator, giving it tons of staying power over the course of a match. Celebi has the same level of bulk as Shaymin, but has a useful Fighting resistance, as well as access to Recover, which is much more useful than Shaymin's Synthesis and/or Rest.

Offensively, it's severely outclassed by every ranked grass type except Tangrowth (though that's arguable). Shaymin has no boosting capabilities outside of Swords Dance (with it's astounding physical movepool of Bullet Seed, Quick Attack, Facade, and Giga Impact), and Growth (not really useful outside of sun, which if you're using that, just use Venusaur as a Growth grass type). Shaymin's only claim to fame offensively is Seed Flare, a very good move, but exploitable with its 8PP. It doesn't help that grass STAB in a tier dominated by Scizor and Heatran won't be that useful. Air Slash is also nice I guess, in order to beat other grass types, but it's not enough to help Shaymin standout in OU.

Shaymin also has little utility to offer that can't be done better by other grass types. I could go on about each of the ranked grass types and their respectively utility, but we need only look at Celebi to see how outclassed Shaymin is in this department. The only utility Shaymin has to offer is Aromatherapy and Healing Wish, both of which Celebi can do. However, Celebi also has access to Stealth Rocks, Thunder Wave, and U-Turn, you could even make the case for lesser used utility moves on Celebi such as dual screens and Perish Song.

Heatran and Scizor have also risen quite a bit in usage in the past few months, making it quite difficult for Shaymin to accomplish anything offensively when they quad resist its STAB. Taunt Heatran is capable shutting down SubSeed sets, and is always capable of winning the 1v1. Scizor is able to outlast Shaymin with Roost, and U-Turns on it. The rise in usage from these two alone cause so many issues for Shaymin that it's worth dropping down to C or UR.

Usage Stats February

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-02/gen8bdspou-1760.txt

Usage Stats May

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-05/gen8bdspou-1760.txt

Essentially, Shaymin brings nothing unique to the tier, and what little it offers is outclassed by better and more common grass types. On top of that, the rise in usage from Heatran and Scizor severely hurt Shaymin, who can't do anything to them. Those are the main reasons why I believe it deserves to be lowered or dropped from the viability rankings.

Personal opinion, not collective.

I tend to agree with what you are saying but UR is probably too much. It still has two viable niches with the subseed set that with the good amount of support is very effective and it is a better physical defensive wall than tangrowth or celebi, especially against Crawdaunt or Ice Beam Feraligatr. Though these niches are still niches and it is not enough to compensate the lack of momentum that both Celebi and Tang provide with U-Turn and Regenerator, and in that I agree with you. Offensively it is more than outclassed by both Rotom-M and Celebi, though Specs Shaymin is no joke despite the few pps Seed Flare has. At last, it is probably the best aromatherapy user we get. Is it enough ? No, but it has its merit and I think it deserves at least a C.

how’d entei get up there?

This tier lacks of good fire resist and the few mons that switch into Sacred Fire really dislikes the risk of being burnt. Plus, it has access to ESpeed which is always serviceable. I could even imagine it higher if it was not outclassed by Infernape by a lot but I don't see it so much higher either, especially that Sacred Fire can miss and has few pps.

Yay, Heracross is finally B-ranked.

On that note, some question about rises - what enhanced Azelf and Nidoking?

Also, what keeps Garchomp at S- and prevents it to rise to S? It seems near-mandatory on offensive teams as a ground type that breaks fatter teams really well, and can also set rocks

I stand with what Lalaya said about Azelf. Most people including myself restrict it as an offensive lead while it also is a very good offensive house between Flamethrower, U-Turn and Nasty Plot. And still, it is a defining mon of BDSP OU just as a lead.

About Nido, the tier has a slower pace than before giving it more room to click. It does what it has always done and it is still very efficient at doing so, competing mostly with the presence of Mamoswine. If I prefer Mamo that I would rank at least as high as Nido, Nido thrives in current meta. Btw, if you are scared of Nido, you can play Slowking.

If Garchomp is one of the rare offensive lead competing with Azelf as a rocker, I didn't put it S myself, standing with A+ for the exact same reasoning that Lalaya has. Most teams can play around it and you would often want it to be KOed rather than switch. Though, I've messed around with it lately with bulkier set and it is pretty effective. There is probably room to develop it further both offensively and defensively but it is not enough to put it higher than S- in my mind that, as I said, is already very high.

suicune not being high tier because of pressure makes sense, because its now able to passively threaten opponents more effectively, but as someone who admittedly hasnt played in a while, why was suicune unranked to begin with? even with bulky water competition, its combination of speed and ridiculous bulk has made it a unique defensive wincon (or standard wall)

As Lalaya said, there was no need and it was pretty bad tbh. It was more often than not a dead weight while not really preventing Azumaril or Feraligatr to do their job besides praying to burn with scald.

Poliwrath in B tier but Hippo gets UR’d? Someone explain this to me, an outsider.

If it was only on me, the wrath would be B+. It fixes so many issues any stall team can have. The only issue with it that outside of stall, it doesn't really work.
On the other hand, Hippo really misses Toxic to cripple stuff like Rotom-A or Latias. It has this very very small niche of beating Clefable by either nullifying Moonlight recovery or phasing the Wish pass, but it is far from enough to be ranked at this point. All in all, to find a slot for it without it being detrimental for its mates is tough.

 

[xyeu]

If it was only on me, the wrath would be B+. It fixes so many issues any stall team can have. The only issue with it that outside of stall, it doesn't really work.

outside of crawdaunt, feraligatr, and weavile, what are the other roles poliwrath has as a bulky water on stall? i understand that having an answer for those threats is crucial for a stall team to preform, but when facing teams that don’t have those specific threats, it often becomes dead weight. i’ve played stall a fair amount and honestly sludge bomb crawdaunt is a very rare encounter. and even when i do come across one, it’s easy to play around because it’s very predictable as to when they click sludge bomb because of the life orb damage. and feraligatr is only an issue when it runs ice beam, which again, is extremely rare. tangrowth can switch into non-ice beam variants and knock off the life orb so that clefable can come in and completely wall it. i’ve actually ran a yache berry tangrowth specifically for ice beam feraligatr, and that preforms pretty well. and weavile is really not that big of an issue when you have a regenerator core to scout choice locked moves.

 

[Xilefi]

outside of crawdaunt, feraligatr, and weavile, what are the other roles poliwrath has as a bulky water on stall? i understand that having an answer for those threats is crucial for a stall team to preform, but when facing teams that don’t have those specific threats, it often becomes dead weight. i’ve played stall a fair amount and honestly sludge bomb crawdaunt is a very rare encounter. and even when i do come across one, it’s easy to play around because it’s very predictable as to when they click sludge bomb because of the life orb damage. and feraligatr is only an issue when it runs ice beam, which again, is extremely rare. tangrowth can switch into non-ice beam variants and knock off the life orb so that clefable can come in and completely wall it. i’ve actually ran a yache berry tangrowth specifically for ice beam feraligatr, and that preforms pretty well. and weavile is really not that big of an issue when you have a regenerator core to scout choice locked moves.

I don't know if I can give a perfect answer but I can try. In my opinion stall is probably the only playstyle that can afford specific answers like Poliwrath even if it can be a dead weight in some games, and Poliwrath is what most stall builds would need. You are mentioning Tangrowth and yes, Wrath and Tang fill more or less the same role in this archetype. For what it matters, I would never ranked in current metagame Poliwrath over Tangrowth. However, Poliwrath is an Ice resist, a Water and Dark resist in a format where Dark-, Water- and Ice-types are powerful. Gliscor for example would move more freely with a Wrath alongside it. Also, I don't think it is that much a dead weight in other match ups as it is often able to make progress with either crippling stuff with Scald or Circle Throw when hazards are up. And it can still tank up other moves like Infernape's Flare Blitz that is often a liability for Stall teams. For these reason, it is a mon that I like a lot in this archetype because it is not just a niche but it can also be proactive.

what made gliscor, heatran, mew, celebi, poliwrath, and slowking rise? and what made crawdaunt, mamoswine, scizor, skarmory, slowbro, and weezing drop?

I will take the opportunity to answer this, following the template of Lalaya. Remember, only my opinion.

Rises :

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Gliscor : I will admit that I have a slight negative bias towards this mon. I hate the fact most teams can take advantage of it if it doesn't click U-Turn every time. Though, its rising is nothing surprising as it is by far the best defoger with a tone of role compressing and one of the best, if not the best currently, pivot. In short, people will never not need it. Though I had still ranked it A+ but I had less S- mons.

Heatran : Again, nothing surprising here. Maybe in contention to be the second best positioned mon currently. Physically defensive sets nullify any non Brick Break Scizor and is one the best check to Weavile, specially defensive sets are still a powerhouse even if I have preferred Blissey or Slowking lately. It has a free switch in every time you see a Clefable, formidable rocker, Magma Storm hurts, etc, etc. TLDR : it does it all.

Mew : I've always been a bit clueless about Mew, ngl, but this mon has always been very annoying. What I can say that maybe explains its rise is that people might have started to use Mew for more than just "you don't know what set I run". Defensive set can sometimes be really hard to break while more offensive sets can sometimes just click.

Celebi : I've used a lot of Celebi since its release and I would argue that the most interesting thing with it is that it is a pivot that pivots on Rotom-W. In that, I think it has a formidable value in this metagame, in addition of its good role compression and better than average stats as well as being able to fit in a lot of playstyle. Though, it has its flaws and not the least that prevent it to be higher than just B+ in my eyes.

Slowking : Another mon that I've used a lot lately and is really efficient in more balance team, especially in combination with Heatran. Most notably, it checks Starmie and Nidoking reliably while still being able to check Latias and cripple Alakazam.

Drops :

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Crawdaunt : Crawdaunt suffers from the higher relevance of other breakers post Gengar Ban. Before, Daunt was highly relevant as the format was really warped towards HO vs Stall and Gengar typing was deterring people from using Mach Punch and ESpeed users. Since then, if it has nothing less than the plenty of other breakers that are also in A-, it does not really have something more than them.

Mamoswine : this is a drop that I disagree with as I still think Ice Shard is still really relevant while Ice-Ground is more than a deadly combo. Yes, it has only one good set (the freeze dry one even if the sub set has prolly its merit but I don't have enough hindsight) but I don't think this set is that hard to slot in teams. Though, Nidoking fills the same slot.

Scizor : For this one, I will directly refer to what Lalaya said. Defensive sets, either the defog set or the sd set, are harder to pull off. But what can you do when a mon has almost 50% usage. As for Gliscor, Scizor is a mon that people tries to take advantage of and it works . Though, the LO sets are really good and with a minimum of support and tight plays, SD defensive sets are still very powerful. Very debatable though, we did debate a lot on this one, I stood with S but S- is prolly fine.

Skarmory : Id argue it was too high in the first place. Offensively, it is outclassed by Azelf and Garchomp. Defensively, it is really deceiving. I often struggle to fit it in my teams. Though, it is still one of the best spikers which is really valuable and has its defensive merits nonetheless like against Mamoswine.

Slowbro : Id also argue it was too high in the first place. It just comes back to where it belongs.

Weezing : In my mind, C is where most niches belong. Weezing is one them, especially that Breloom is not the flavor of the month anymore as it has been post Gengar ban. Though, I think it is a good C and a very valuable niche. I think people should try it more considering how good is Azumarill for example.

 

[AngelMCZ]

Hi to all, just a doubt: how is Feraligatr ranked higher than azumarrill and crawdaunt? I get Starmie resists fighting moves (mach punch) and has RS for rocks, what about Gatr in the current meta? dont get me wrong is my fave pokemon.
Thz in advance.

 

[Medeia]

Hi to all, just a doubt: how is Feraligatr ranked higher than azumarrill and crawdaunt? I get Starmie resists fighting moves (mach punch) and has RS for rocks, what about Gatr in the current meta? dont get me wrong is my fave pokemon.
Thz in advance.

Feraligatr has decent speed and enough natural bulk to live some SE hits unlike Crawdaunt, doesn't just fold to Mach Punch/strong priority unlike Crawdaunt, isn't reliant on Aqua Jet to pick off faster threats in a offense meta and has the flexibility to either threaten offense with dragon dance or non poliwrath fat/stall with swords dance. Also sets up with either move a lot easier against a bunch of high ranked mons without memento/screens support than SD Crawdaunt or Belly Drum Azumarrill, which is the biggest difference maker. Crawdaunt is probably closer to A- rank right now and "the worst" of the three, since it's theoretically strongest point of smashing stall is a bit harder to do thanks to the adaptation to run Poliwrath.

 

[Xilefi]

Hi to all, just a doubt: how is Feraligatr ranked higher than azumarrill and crawdaunt? I get Starmie resists fighting moves (mach punch) and has RS for rocks, what about Gatr in the current meta? dont get me wrong is my fave pokemon.
Thz in advance.

Feraligatr has decent speed and enough natural bulk to live some SE hits unlike Crawdaunt, doesn't just fold to Mach Punch/strong priority unlike Crawdaunt, isn't reliant on Aqua Jet to pick off faster threats in a offense meta and has the flexibility to either threaten offense with dragon dance or non poliwrath fat/stall with swords dance. Also sets up with either move a lot easier against a bunch of high ranked mons without memento/screens support than SD Crawdaunt or Belly Drum Azumarrill, which is the biggest difference maker. Crawdaunt is probably closer to A- rank right now and "the worst" of the three, since it's theoretically strongest point of smashing stall is a bit harder to do thanks to the adaptation to run Poliwrath.

Feraligatr, Azumarill and Crawdaunt are to a certain extent comparable but Starmie fills different roles and should not be in this discussion. For instance you can have a Starmie alongside one of the three others. To be more clear, Starmie has very little influence on their respective position on this VR (even if we could definitely argue that Starmie likes their presence in the tier).

About Azu, Gatr and Daunt, even the comparison between them has its limit. Daunt is almost exclusively a breaker, Feraligatr is exclusively a sweeper while Azu can be both. I would rather talk about them individually.

Crawdaunt : Crawdaunt suffers from the higher relevance of other breakers post Gengar Ban. Before, Daunt was highly relevant as the format was really warped towards HO vs Stall and Gengar typing was deterring people from using Mach Punch and ESpeed users. Since then, if it has nothing less than the plenty of other breakers that are also in A-, it does not really have something more than them.

There is Azu in this list of breakers. Talking about it, as a breaker it offers far more defensive utility against Weavile, Gatr or Ape, than Daunt while also having more sets available aka Belly Drum. The existence of the Belly Drum set really helps the Band set to be effective as people tend to consider the former to be more threatening. Though, I think the BD set is really struggling currently maybe because people have learnt to play against it with time. In that regards, Gatr continues to just need one DD to claim victory.

Honestly, I value a lot the versatility and the defensive utility of Azumarill considering that it does not lose its efficiency but Gatr is more often than not self-sufficient. Both could have been A+ or A, the difference is not that big of a deal. Both are good and both can be played together and don't have to.