Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
With Gengar getting the boot, this opens the door for Mismagius to start seeing some usage. With it now becoming the premier ghost type in the tier, it will gain the role of spin blocker on teams, as well as become a pretty solid scarfer, as with a modest nature it OHKO’s a lot of the tiers strongest mons after some chip. This team I created has been doing extremely well as it pairs great with Heatran who can set up rocks to help get the chip it needs, and Mismagius can switch into EQ’s for it if you’re brave enough. https://pokepast.es/e36cf65d9c045879
I've been using Haunter this generation instead of Gengar in most of my offensive teams looking for a scarf user. Gengar is so strong so Haunter makes enough sense to me for it to be strong
W H Y ?
Ground immunity, spikes and sticky webs immune
S O __ W H A T ?
Ground immunity - Gives it more opportunities vs Gliscor, especially if they're not carrying Knock Off. Can create mind games for VSing non-scarf Garchomp, makes Earthquake less of a free move to throw out overall. If you do end up switching into an Earthquake with Haunter then you may have swung the momentum of the game
Spikes immunity - from what I noticed when playing: stall enjoys using their spikes. Most of the time anything Haunter can't kill vs stall; the same goes for Gengar. With spikes immunity it means that Haunter can come in vs entry hazards more freely. With a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock up: Gengar only has 4 switch-ins while Haunter has 8
Sticky Web immunity - Though sticky webs aren't as common: it still is something that Gengar would not appreciate, especially if its faced VS the likes of Starmie, Weavile and Alakazam. Even a scarf Gengar can't do much with Sticky Web below its feet. Haunter does not have this issue meaning that it can blow past these kinds of offensive teams with less pressure
W H Y __ N O T __ M I S M A G I U S ?
I have tried Mismagius. It's good but trust me when I say I believe that Haunter is better than it offensively. With a very powerful offensive typing its able to deal with fairies really well. Mismagius does have better bulk which can be abused but it's so much weaker that it needs a boosting item with Mystical Fire or Psychic alone for it to KO Breloom. Mismagius also cannot deal with Fairies nearly as well.
W H E R E __ T O __ U S E __ H A U N T E R
idk just replace a scarf Gengar in one of your teams for a scarf Haunter and try it out. The power difference is 10% and bulk is way less but that's why I use it as a scarfer - I don't expect it to take a hit. Haunter is very frail but it's not going to die to weaker resisted hits like U turns. The pokemon is fun and levitate is a very strong ability to have
OLDER SET I USED TO USE
Black Sludge
4 def / 252 + spA / 252 speed
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
My favourite one is the choice scarfer. I use Modest instead of Timid because it still outspeeds base 80 scarfers like Gardevoir. I also want it to hit as hard as possible. Timid in my opinion is kind of useless because its such an awkward speed tier. I use Hex on this for Gliscor. Modest Haunter is 361: 2 points stronger than Timid Gengar so I don't feel like showing calcs are necessary
Haunter is interesting. Try it out instead of Scarf Gengar in one of one of your teams can afford it. You'll be rewarded more in certain matchups if you play it right
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1471943870 -- vs Gliscor with U turn and Earthquake. Haunter was taking miniscule amounts of damage vs Gliscor's U turn. If this was a scarfed Gengar in this instance then it would have been much more vulnerable to it
I will begin saving my replays when Haunter makes any relevant plays and updating this for people to see. I had many clutch games where the ground immunity came in handy though I never documented the majority of them
Well it looks like this post is a lot more relevant now, except for the replays. Some may be a bit outdated
Base 95 Speed still lets you outspeed base 80s
Base 115 Modest is roughly the same power as Gengar
Levitate gives it some defensive utility and offers more opportunities to regain offensive momentum against EQ users
2nd STAB in Poison lets it kill Fairy mons without relying on Hex
It's a hit and run mon that can clean up. Don't let it get hit by priority if possible. It can survive a careful bulky spdef scizor Bullet Punch (81% damage average). Frailer than Mismagius for more power and a second STAB
Well it looks like this post is a lot more relevant now, except for the replays. Some may be a bit outdated
Base 95 Speed still lets you outspeed base 80s
Base 115 Modest is roughly the same power as Gengar
Levitate gives it some defensive utility and offers more opportunities to regain offensive momentum against EQ users
2nd STAB in Poison lets it kill Fairy mons without relying on Hex
It's a hit and run mon that can clean up. Don't let it get hit by priority if possible. It can survive a careful bulky spdef scizor Bullet Punch (81% damage average). Frailer than Mismagius for more power and a second STAB
it doesnt have nasty plot or focus blast, two of the things that made gengar so terrifying. maybe this still has some random niche- such as if you really, really want a spinblocker- and i do think it's better than mismagius on some teams in that regard. but it is not gengar 2. saddeningly? thankfully.
it doesnt have nasty plot or focus blast, two of the things that made gengar so terrifying. maybe this still has some random niche- such as if you really, really want a spinblocker- and i do think it's better than mismagius on some teams in that regard. but it is not gengar 2. saddeningly? thankfully.
Mismagius does have Nasty Plot. It doesn't have Focus Blast but it does get Mystical Fire, which means it's a special attacker that does not give two shits about Scizor. It also gets pain split or taunt if your concern is beating Blissey, and it's not like Blissey can toxic it back since it doesn't have toxic anymore. Mismagius also has dazzling gleam and energy ball, depending on what random coverage you want.
It doesn't get any super effective move for Clefable though, which is a pretty big knock against it as a Gengar replacement.
Let's talk about Slowbro and how it benefitted from the Gengar ban...
mentioning some of Slowbros sets :
Slowbro @ Colbur Berry / Wacan Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Fire Blast
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave / Yawn
Standard? (colbur lets it live throat chop from weavile with only 30% damage taken, lives crawdaunts knock off better,ect. Fire blast over ice beam can be used so slowbro isn't sometimes walled by scizor. wacan lets it live electric type attacks but i genuinely prefer colbur.)
colbur berry calcs-
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO( a plus 3 feraligatr is situational and slowbro doesn't really do much back to feraligatr unless scald burn or thunder wave or yawn but you see the point.)
wacan berry calcs -
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (please just switch out at that point, but maybe this could help you with certain kinds of predictions???)
+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 243-286 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(only do this if raikou isn't under its sub and you have yawn, otherwise go into ur ground please. i also wanna say that raikou isn't even that rare in ou rn i see it on ladder daily idk about you)
+2 252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kasib Berry Slowbro: 215-253 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (use kasib if real)
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Slack Off
- Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
future sight booster (iirc i think slowking does nplot better i think?? dont take my word for it)
Slowbro @ Expert Belt
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Slack Off
- Fire Blast / Focus Blast
ebelt 3 atks (thanks to slowbros bulk i think this turns it into a good bulky attacker as these 3 attacks are enough to hit almost all of the meta and I don't think anything likes to eat a super effective move from this, you can maybe lower some defense ev's and put them into spa to hit things harder. focus blast lets it hit ttar but it usually only works on the switch and no ttar should go hard into slowbro so idk you try it)
Anyways, with the ban of Gengar there is no doubt that Slowbro is one of the top tier bulky waters in BDSP OU right now. Slowbro was already great but Gengar simply was the thing that was holding it back but now that it's gone it's going to simply be walling stuff now, being able to stomach priority and switch into the most common physical threats thanks to its great typing and being able to do what a bulky water does and that is spread scald burns, and do other kinds of status or maybe even force ohko's as a way to do something back! Slowbro's good movepool allows it to hit a lot of key things in the meta like Scizor,Dragonite,Garchomp,ect which is why i mentioned a Expert Belt set. Slowbro can boost up with it's excellent choice in calm mind that allows it to boost up its lacking spdef and make it more of a tank or use nasty plot which is commonly in conjunction with Future Sight to damage things that can switch into Slowbro. (rip weavile) And notably, I think we've all been seeing more slowbro (or even slowking) balance teams.
In conclusion, Gengar's ban is pretty Beneficial to Slowbro as now it can finally do it's job as a bulky water more freely and i think we are going to see more usage and Slowbro (and honestly slowbro should be ou i dont understand why it isnt usage rates r super bad smh) send slowbro teams plz so i can steal them.
On the subject of Slowbro getting better with Gengar's ban, I wonder it Slowking does any better now that the menace has left the tier. I pose the thought because it just occurred to me that I almost never see Slowking.
In general though I am super happy with the result of the suspect and Gengar heading out. I guess I'll also pose this question: what kind of teams has everyone been using now that Gengar is gone?
Many of Alakazam’s checks, such as Scizor, Heatran, Blissey, Tyranitar, and Weavile, struggle against hazard stacking in a meta without Heavy-Duty Boots. Skarmory is arguably the only viable Spikes user in the tier and it helps deal with Garchomp, Gliscor, and Weavile.
Punishing and preventing hazard removal isn’t easy due to the lack of reliable spinblockers and Defiant mons. It is best to have a reliable answer to Gliscor and Scizor that can come in on Defog, but there are few options. Skarmory doesn’t count because it can’t beat them. I am still playing around with what can fill this role.
Let's talk about Slowbro and how it benefitted from the Gengar ban...
mentioning some of Slowbros sets :
Slowbro @ Colbur Berry / Wacan Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Fire Blast
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave / Yawn
Standard? (colbur lets it live throat chop from weavile with only 30% damage taken, lives crawdaunts knock off better,ect. Fire blast over ice beam can be used so slowbro isn't sometimes walled by scizor. wacan lets it live electric type attacks but i genuinely prefer colbur.)
colbur berry calcs-
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO( a plus 3 feraligatr is situational and slowbro doesn't really do much back to feraligatr unless scald burn or thunder wave or yawn but you see the point.)
wacan berry calcs -
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (please just switch out at that point, but maybe this could help you with certain kinds of predictions???)
+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wacan Berry Slowbro: 243-286 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(only do this if raikou isn't under its sub and you have yawn, otherwise go into ur ground please. i also wanna say that raikou isn't even that rare in ou rn i see it on ladder daily idk about you)
+2 252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kasib Berry Slowbro: 215-253 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (use kasib if real)
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Slack Off
- Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
future sight booster (iirc i think slowking does nplot better i think?? dont take my word for it)
Slowbro @ Expert Belt
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Slack Off
- Fire Blast / Focus Blast
ebelt 3 atks (thanks to slowbros bulk i think this turns it into a good bulky attacker as these 3 attacks are enough to hit almost all of the meta and I don't think anything likes to eat a super effective move from this, you can maybe lower some defense ev's and put them into spa to hit things harder. focus blast lets it hit ttar but it usually only works on the switch and no ttar should go hard into slowbro so idk you try it)
Anyways, with the ban of Gengar there is no doubt that Slowbro is one of the top tier bulky waters in BDSP OU right now. Slowbro was already great but Gengar simply was the thing that was holding it back but now that it's gone it's going to simply be walling stuff now, being able to stomach priority and switch into the most common physical threats thanks to its great typing and being able to do what a bulky water does and that is spread scald burns, and do other kinds of status or maybe even force ohko's as a way to do something back! Slowbro's good movepool allows it to hit a lot of key things in the meta like Scizor,Dragonite,Garchomp,ect which is why i mentioned a Expert Belt set. Slowbro can boost up with it's excellent choice in calm mind that allows it to boost up its lacking spdef and make it more of a tank or use nasty plot which is commonly in conjunction with Future Sight to damage things that can switch into Slowbro. (rip weavile) And notably, I think we've all been seeing more slowbro (or even slowking) balance teams.
In conclusion, Gengar's ban is pretty Beneficial to Slowbro as now it can finally do it's job as a bulky water more freely and i think we are going to see more usage and Slowbro (and honestly slowbro should be ou i dont understand why it isnt usage rates r super bad smh) send slowbro teams plz so i can steal them.
On the subject of Slowbro getting better with Gengar's ban, I wonder it Slowking does any better now that the menace has left the tier. I pose the thought because it just occurred to me that I almost never see Slowking.
In general though I am super happy with the result of the suspect and Gengar heading out. I guess I'll also pose this question: what kind of teams has everyone been using now that Gengar is gone?
For real, the devilish bros are out again for the best or for the worst. Doesn't mean that Balance is definetly back on the menu (but BO does !). The bros won't save balance yet (not that they have to) but finally we can fully mess with more pivots than before.
About the younger of the two dumb siblings, I've personnaly like future sight a lot giving extra breaking prowess to its mate. But its main contribution is elsewhere : straight up a counter to Lucario, an amazing check to SD Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite and non-Grass Knot Infernape and a few other things. Anyway, I wanted to speak about some good partners I've tried and liked so far.
Well Blissey. Nothing especially new I guess but Blissey really like having a Slowbro in the back on the defensive side and vice versa. It is especially potent against Volturn cores that this core is capable to sponge almost indefinitely if its side of the battlefield is free of hazards.
Again I am not inventing the wheel there but here is the thing : Scizor, especially running a physdef ev spread is a fantatisc weavile check and helps handling Breloom that we are seeing a resurgence (especially the Choice Band set). A triangle Blissey-Slowbro-Scizor is able to cover a big part of the metagame right now. Bonus here : Scizor being freed of some charge is amazing. Anyway, any set that Scizor has access to is able to form a good core with Bro as long as it has U-Turn.
Seeing a pattern ? Well, Forretress isn't exactly a core with Slowbro but Forretress still is a fantastic partner at the cost of being passive for a few reasons. While being a good check to both Weavile and Breloom, Forretress is particularily interesting for covering some of Slowbro's weaknesses : removing hazards, Toxic Spikes to prevent mons to setup, Spikes to abuse of Regenerator. Forretress has flaws for sure but it brings strong utility Slowbro likes.
Seeing a color pattern ? Yeah somehow all these mons are either red or pink. Anyway on the offensive side of the spectrum, without mentionning that Ape is looking again really good in the metagame, Slowbro+Ape form a good core that I won't be surprised to be popular. Future Sight helps a lot the Ape to break while Bro is able to handle Gliscor, Garchomp, Dnite and Mence. As a bonus, Ape checks offensively both Crawdaunt and Weavile, and to a lesser extent Breloom.
I'm putting Raikou here for two reasons : I'm kinda bored that Washtom (it is toooooo good !) fits all my teams, aaaand because I like Raikou Raikou is honestly a good mon. Anyway, any pokemon able to take care of Azu, Crawdaunt and Gatr fits any team and Slowbro despite being Water don't check them realy well. On the other side, Slowbro can not care less about ground type mons that would prevent both Raikou and Rotom forms to pivot.
It is a thing I am testing currently (I'm testing a stored powered Latias set) but it is more theorical than anything. Slowbro does lure pretty effectively the few but potent Dark types that are running around that would prevent any psychic types mons to spam Psychic/Stored Power. I'm mentionning Clef for those people that are running that Cosmic Power+Stored Power set against me with no success (sorry) but it has the merit to exist. Anyway, the idea is clearly to free the road to a Calm Mind Latias/Latios or Nasty Plot Zam/Azelf.
Something I want to try that I've not tried yet is Specially Defensive Jirachi with Slowbro. adem would strike this core not being able to handle LO 3atks with EQ Latios but bar this, Jirachi dislikes Infernape, Dnite and Chomp that Bro would handle while Rachi would handle the special threats that are not cough Gengar cough... Mismagius ? Rotom-Heat ? Nidoking ? Anyway, they share some issues but I'm still thinking they would work great together.
To conclude about Slowbro, I think it is good and has potential outside of stall... for now. Being water and being unable to check potent threats like Azumarill, Crawdaunt and Feraligatr is definitely a liability. Spikes is genuinely very good against it while there is not that many spiner/defoger that aren't too passive to paire it with. And this is without saying that people can and will adapt to it sooner than later. What about Yache SD Garchomp for example ? The time Slowbro switches into it, it is too late : SD up, Garchomp is able to 2HKO Slowbro with Earthquake or Outrage. +1 Outrage Dragonite 2HKO Slowbro aswell. With Bro on the radar, mixed Infernape will have a resurgence for sure even if it might suffer a 4MSS between Grass Knot/Overheat. Without mentionning that Weavile is a threat that has no reason to disappear.
I don't have as much to say about Slowking as I've not used it yet but I read people talking about a core Tangrowth+Slowking being good right now.
Tired of spore Breloom, sleep powder Tangrowth, knock off Gliscor? Substitute Guts Heracross is the perfect counter. If Heracross comes in on a mon that it can take advantage of (such as Gliscor), it can sub up, SD, and net two guaranteed kills since Gliscor is unable to break your sub and it dies +2 Facade. Sub also eases prediction if you're not sure whether or not to CC the Skarmory, or Facade the unaware Clef. This set allows him to be an extremely potent wall breaker, and rips open holes in balance/offense teams if it is able to preserve a sub. With Gengar banned, ghosts are extremely uncommon in the metagame aside from the occasional Mismagnius, so this set can force progress against most teams. Heracross is an extremely powerful mon in this metagame, and should not be underestimated. It also has the advantage of being much faster than other guts users such as Hariyama - Heracross can't be revenge killed by things like Togekiss (if not scarf) if it's at +2 since Heracross simply outspeeds and kills it with Facade.
Teleport is one of those moves (like Psyshock and Mystical Fire) that seemed like it was cut from the game but actually was just reduced in distribution to whatever learns it via level up. Even without abusers like Slowbro and Slowking, it might still be usable.
Alakazam is incredibly strong and very hard to switch into; its best answer is specially defensive Scizor. Alakazam is often a liability if the opponent has one because Scizor completely steals its momentum. Teleport can let Alakazam get a slow pivot against an obvious Scizor switch or be used as a middle ground play if the opponent has several healthy checks. Most notably, Teleport can bring Magnezone in against opposing Scizor and bring powerful breakers in against Blissey.
I think this could be a viable option for teams that prefer Alakazam to keep momentum rather than emphasize disruption (Encore/Taunt) or massive firepower (Nasty Plot). What do you think?
The only other arguably OU-viable mon that learns Teleport is Gardevoir, which could possibly use it as a filler option for Scarf sets.
Jokes aside, while I think it deserves its own post, I honestly don't think it will survive in OU for long; losing any type of meaningful coverage makes it walled by usual slew of Steels we have (at least it has Air Slash for things like Breloom/Tang matchups...?), and as usual it has no means of boosting, either (watch people prove me wrong with Growth Shaymin)
That being said, we're adding another Rotom-Wash and Breloom check all in one slot, and it's still gonna be annoying to beat down both because of Synthesis and for SubSeed sets, and it can also act as a cleric/Healing Wish passer, so it's not like the little flower won't have any niche. Base 100 is still a heck of a speed tier to hit, and gives it a good amount of bulk, and pure Grass isn't really as bad as it sounds in this meta, so.. yay?
I'm expecting SubSeed, things like Flare / Slash / Synthesis / utility move to be main sets if anything, but I still believe this will be UU food eventually
Still, happy to see my favourite route to farm Eggs in flower Pokémon back!
Basically annoys the ever living hell out of Rotom-Wash and Mow, outspeeding them if they tricked the Scarf away (or if they don't have it, and generally a bunch of mixed bulk isnt bad to have. EV spread can be definitely tinkered too, just thought of something fast (more def for Breloom Scizor and the like?)
Jokes aside, while I think it deserves its own post, I honestly don't think it will survive in OU for long; losing any type of meaningful coverage makes it walled by usual slew of Steels we have (at least it has Air Slash for things like Breloom/Tang matchups...?), and as usual it has no means of boosting, either (watch people prove me wrong with Growth Shaymin)
That being said, we're adding another Rotom-Wash and Breloom check all in one slot, and it's still gonna be annoying to beat down both because of Synthesis and for SubSeed sets, and it can also act as a cleric/Healing Wish passer, so it's not like the little flower won't have any niche. Base 100 is still a heck of a speed tier to hit, and gives it a good amount of bulk, and pure Grass isn't really as bad as it sounds in this meta, so.. yay?
I'm expecting SubSeed, things like Flare / Slash / Synthesis / utility move to be main sets if anything, but I still believe this will be UU food eventually
Still, happy to see my favourite route to farm Eggs in flower Pokémon back!
Is sky form shaymin going to be part of ou until people can prove it needs to be Uber? Or is it automatically going into Uber since it was in it in dpp?
Is sky form shaymin going to be part of ou until people can prove it needs to be Uber? Or is it automatically going into Uber since it was in it in dpp?
THE OPPOSING LATIOS' SPECIAL DEFENSE HARSHLY FELL!
Shaymin will be soon with us! And I feel like although I may be overhyped for it, it deserves it's own fully fledged post.
I've been excited for it being revealed and I will proceed to share sets about how I'd go about using it and why (Keep in mind that I am mostly theorycrafting here):
The first set that came to mind, although unconventional:
This set allows Shaymin to perform a similar niche to Rotom-Mow, while having Healing wish.
"But why not just use Mow?" You might ask... Well allow me to illuminate!
First and foremost, due to species clause you cannot use Mow and Wash on the same team. Second of all, Shaymin has Healing wish and Seed flare's chance to drop Special defense rather than Leaf storm giving momentum away will allow you to muscle through **CERTAIN** checks like the Lati twins, Air slash lets you beat Tang and Breloom while Dazzling gleam lets you hit Weavile and the Latis without using up Seed flare PP.
Shaymin's grass typing and naturally high bulk of 100 across the board allows it to pivot into Grass moves as a scarfer which is highly valuable when you revenge all of them, even countering the dangerous Wash.
Healing wish is broken in a meta that favors Offense, as patching up something like a Bandfernape can really win you the game especially vs fatter teams which Shaymin doesn't do anything against.
Natural cure makes sure that you won't be forced to Hwish early if you take a Wash twave unlike a Scarf latias.
I think Shaymin will be a potentially decent pick on Balance and Stall teams alike, allow me to elaborate.
A pure grass typing isn't as bad in BDSP as other metas due to how potent Waters are in here, Tangrowth is a prime example of this as a great slot on Stall: But it can struggle vs Mix Crawdaunt or the rare (and hilarious) Ice beam/Blizzard Feraligatr while not being that good of a Wash answer and being OHKO'd by Azumarill's +6 play rough.
Shaymin outspeeds Azumarill and Crawdaunt without need for investment, while being bulky on both sides allowing it to take the hits surprisingly well especially after having its item knocked off.
Rest offers a full heal and can just be woken up with Natural cure... Which is like a budget regenerator.
Yache berry allows it to bait Starmie and Feraligatr, but I'll be real it's too weak to "bait" Weavile.
Air slash allows it to beat Tangrowth and check Breloom.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 205-244 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 41.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Shaymin Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 260-308 (97.3 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Be careful vs this one lmao)
0 SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 308-366 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 260-307 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 283-335 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yache Berry Shaymin: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 302-356 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Shaymin: 138-162 (34.1 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Shaymin: 107-126 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- 33.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(You live Hydro into Ice beam, and you live Ice beam with Yache which is cool... Wouldn't use this as your only check though..)
I don't think I need to post Washer calcs...
Finally we have the last set, which will probably be the most used:
Not much to be said here, I think it'll be a decent pair with a Magnezone on spikes stack teams as it allows it to patch up the Scizor weakness and play the long game vs Heatran. Decent set all around.
That concludes the post, I think although it is a tad weak with 100 special attack, Shaymin will be at worst an okay pick and at best decent. It has unique utility as a pure grass type that puts it over others in situations worth considering. Do keep in mind this is all in theory: it may be worse or better, who knows? Try it out and Seed flare away, friends! Once it drops on PS anyway...
Peace!
Been having some fun with this set recently. Gets to sub on Scizor, Tangrowth, Skarmory and Gliscor and fire off owerful Hurricanes, since there aren't many mons that like switching into Hurricane + Flamethrower that can break its sub. Walled by Heatran but that doesn't really do much to this either.S adly doesn't have pressure but it can still be very annoying for opposing teams
Shaymin is now available on the BDSP OU ladder! Shaymin-Sky will be starting in Ubers.
The teambuilder currently lists them as unreleased, feel free to ignore that.
Shaymin is now available on the BDSP OU ladder! Shaymin-Sky will be starting in Ubers.
The teambuilder currently lists them as unreleased, feel free to ignore that.
Ahhhh darn, can't we have it in OU for a day??? Just kidding, I about had a heart attack thinking about what OU would look like with that little monster ripping and haxing everything in sight.
Let's talk about a Pokémon that I think isn't getting a lot of attention right now, and hopefully this will bring up some sort of discussion.
A very powerful yet frail fright, we've got Alakazam!
This is about how I think Alakazam is unhealthy and is worthy of some sort of suspect soon. I think it's unhealthy because the only counterplays for it are Weavile and the massive priority spam and choice scarfers in the meta, because if you don't have that then you are in for a rough ride.
Now I know what you are thinking, Priority and choice scarfers? Speed control is necessary for competitive Pokémon! (And you are right!) and as for being in a rough ride, the counterplay that slower teams like stall can provide is proper reads and Thunder wave but Alakazam can easily blow pass t-wavers, Steels can drop to Focus blast and even Shadow ball (including scizor).
Now there are many things that are holding Alakazam back, and the main thing that's doing it is simply How offensive the meta is with Scarf and Priority. Prio spam and Scarf has become almost necessary for a team and that alone provides counterplay for Alakazam. Psychic is a trashy type defensively and the fact that it's resisted by steel is kind of big for Alakazam's ability to preform efficiently. Alakazam is so frail that it mostly relies on volturn cores (that btw are very successful cores that we've all seen.) or like high IQ reads (Alakazam has some decent spdef bulk so you could maybe find yourself switching into like a resisted attack or something??? I would only do it if you are life orb but even that's risky.)
In short, I think Alakazam is unhealthy for BDSP OU but the way you handle it is how priority heavy the meta is and can simply just be more easy to deal with. Hopefully this can bring light to Alakazam and I would love to participate in civil discussion about it. I would talk about but there's no point I don't think.
I think between the banned threats of Manaphy and Gengar and the existing threats of Alakazam anf Latios, as well as others like Infernape, Breloom, Crawdaunt and more... It sort of just highlights an issue that the tier has as a whole, and that is the fact that there is too much offensive options and not enough defensive options, leaving teams with only so many choices. Thus it is generally easier to counter offense with offense of your own and thus we see so much priority and so many scarfers in the metagame.
There was a lot of offensive powercreep over the generations, but there was always a level of defensive powercreep as well that balanced it out to a degree. BDSP took many of those options away.
Alakazam itself, while it is a bit more linear than Gengar in regards to surprise sets it can pull, there is no denying its power, especially after a NP. Add in the fact that it is immune to passive damage thanks to Magic Guard, and its terrific speed tier and you are left with a pokemon whose best counterplay is priority and out offensing it. Some players may be fine with this, but personally I don't like it. We're already strapped for options as is, and I don't like that there is so little defensive counterplay, if any, to it.
Let's talk about a Pokémon that I think isn't getting a lot of attention right now, and hopefully this will bring up some sort of discussion.
A very powerful yet frail fright, we've got Alakazam!
This is about how I think Alakazam is unhealthy and is worthy of some sort of suspect soon. I think it's unhealthy because the only counterplays for it are Weavile and the massive priority spam and choice scarfers in the meta, because if you don't have that then you are in for a rough ride.
Now I know what you are thinking, Priority and choice scarfers? Speed control is necessary for competitive Pokémon! (And you are right!) and as for being in a rough ride, the counterplay that slower teams like stall can provide is proper reads and Thunder wave but Alakazam can easily blow pass t-wavers, Steels can drop to Focus blast and even Shadow ball (including scizor).
Now there are many things that are holding Alakazam back, and the main thing that's doing it is simply How offensive the meta is with Scarf and Priority. Prio spam and Scarf has become almost necessary for a team and that alone provides counterplay for Alakazam. Psychic is a trashy type defensively and the fact that it's resisted by steel is kind of big for Alakazam's ability to preform efficiently. Alakazam is so frail that it mostly relies on volturn cores (that btw are very successful cores that we've all seen.) or like high IQ reads (Alakazam has some decent spdef bulk so you could maybe find yourself switching into like a resisted attack or something??? I would only do it if you are life orb but even that's risky.)
In short, I think Alakazam is unhealthy for BDSP OU but the way you handle it is how priority heavy the meta is and can simply just be more easy to deal with. Hopefully this can bring light to Alakazam and I would love to participate in civil discussion about it. I would talk about but there's no point I don't think.
First thing first, I'm happy to see a start of a new discussion. So thank you ATowerFalledXD
Before replying about what I think about
Alakazam and to a bigger extent what I think about the current OU metagame, I want to express how I feel about it.
If a metagame being enjoyable in addition of being healthy, interesting, competitive, or even challenging, etc is a part of balance, it is still a personal opinion that only express my personal experience about how I feel and live the game right now. I want to share it with you because it might explain some biases I can have later. My experience is only based on ladder, build my own teams and I do use every strategies with a preference for Balance and Offense.
If I have been in a first place pretty satisfied of the post Gengar ban metagame, I now feel a bit bored by it. I never feel surprised nor excited looking at one opposing team and the number of sets viable feels reduced to the bar minimum. Therefore, if I've never been the more creative player ever, my teams production has fallen off quicker than I would have expected and I feel the format has stopped its progression.
About the metagame in itself, I do feel
Latios needs a suspect test to not say the hammer should strike it.
Whether it is unhealthy or broken, Latios reduces the possibilities of team building by a lot. Don't get me wrong, it is perfectly handleable. Jirachi, Scizor, Blissey, Heatran can easily come into it while Scarf Latias, Weavile and Scarf Garchomp do revenge kill it effectively. I have personnaly used a lot of SpDef Gardevoir lately to bring some diversity to my teams with decent success but it is a personal take and I won't advocate it is better than any mons I have previously mentioned but it works. Though, for any team that are not HOs, you need at least one of them and often multiples. Thankfully they are good at what they do, but they are exploitable and they are in fact exploited.
Steel types are heavily pressured, especially
Scizor. Most of the mons are geared to fight Scizor. Flamethrower Clefable/Azelf/Togekiss, Fire Punch Dragonite, Fire Blast Garchomp, without mentioning Flame Body Heatran and of course Magnet Pull Magnezone. As for
Heatran and
Jirachi, the first is lacking recovery and Jirachi, even if criminally underplayed compared to its prowesses, is lacking a good recovery and offensive presence. Finally, if
Blissey is the sponge that it has always been, its presence doesn't come without a cost. It is extremely passive even with Ice Beam/Thunder and very vulnerable to Volturn strategies.
On the offensive side, if
Weavile is especially potent, other counterplays are limited. Being locked as Scarf Garchomp and Latias can be a liability while almost every others mons that are faster or have priority need a good amount of chip to actually threaten the KO on Latios.
In results,
Latios still is a brut force in BDSP as it is easier to deal with its checks and counters than the contrary. It is phenomenal against HO and Offense, disrecpects Web teams and very good against everything else. If Specs is the most used set, Soul Dew + Calm Mind, Life Orb + 3 Atks, even Scarf or Stored Power are at minimum viable options that can be considered.
In my eyes, Latios is the main reason that makes the metagame less diverse, if not the only one, and prevents the metagame from progressing.
In that regards,
Alakazam doesn't look at me as big of a threat.
Actually I kinda think it was scarier pre Gengar ban. Every time I look at it, it looks to me more a pokemon that thrives because of the metagame more than a metadefining mon. If I agree it is kinda suspicious and I would not be suprised if it is tested in the future, Alakazam needs support to be effective in a game. And unlike other issues we had in the past, it actually falls to priority/scarf mons. The truth is BDSP has a lot of good priority mons : Dragonite, Infernape, Azumarill, Weavile, Breloom, Lucario, Crawdaunt, Scizor are all very potent pokemons and they won't disappear any time soon. Scarf Rotoms 2HKO while being faster, Scarf Dual Chop Garchomp OHKO it.
It also falls to Thunder Wave, as it can't abuse of its speed tier anymore and one paralysis is more often than not synonymous of a KO. To get rid of Blissey it needs Psyshock which is not free as you need Psychic against Clefable, Shadow Ball against Jirachi and Focus Blast against Heatran while running Life Orb weakens its offense match ups by good margin and 4 Attacks can't really sweep.
By all means, Alakazam is good and I am not denying that. Magic Guard is an obnoxious ability especially paired with a Focus Sash and I would prefer to not play around it if I could but currently I don't see what getting rid of Alakazam would change.
Besides Alakazam, there are other things I wanted to talk.
I am really scared by
Feraligatr especially behind screens or/and Healing Wish support. Even prepared, they are many scenarios where it can get through with only one Dragon Dance without much support. I find myself more often than not trying to out offense it as there is no legion of defensive answers.
Alongside,
Weavile is another pokemon that I can imagine being problematic later on as there is no reliable answers to it. Weavile preys upon every defogers/spiners of the metagame putting a big load of pressure on any defensive structures whereas it is really hard to out offense it if your side of the field is free from hazards and even then...
Feraligatr and Weavile are in my eyes the two best threats of the format bar Latios. If I don't think Feraligatr is problematic, not making its own team too weak to Weavile is a really tough challenge in the current metagame.
To finish, I kinda think some good pokemons are overrated currently.
As I said earlier,
Scizor is overloaded of responsibilities to a point where it can't sit and roost. In the rare scenarios it can stay healthy, its full potential is amazing especially with Swords Dance but it happens less than people might think that is why I think it is in a bad spot currently, or at least not the greater one.
Gliscor looks to me as a bad standalone pokemon in current metagame. Outside of stall, I might exaggerate about it but I do feel it is not much more than a filler that has defog without being too embarassing. Its bulk isn't that great, it is not that hard to break, it would want to run more than 4 moves and its offensive presence is really low. Though, I really do like it Stall where it can be a corner stone of the whole team structure.
Scizor and Gliscor are two very good and very splashable pokemons that for different reasons don't perform as much as some people might think in my opinion.
Overall, the metagame has slow down a bit since the Gengar ban but most of the issues are still here. In my recent experience, the most effective strategies I have used and fought against are still Screens, DragMag and Stall. Even if the metagame is a bit more open than before, I am still under the impression that actions need to be taken.
That's all folks, I have done my best to make this very long post readable. I know that some takes are debatable and I am fine with any disagreement. I am eager to read why, especially about how you feel about the metagame.
Overall, the metagame has slow down a bit since the Gengar ban but most of the issues are still here. In my recent experience, the most effective strategies I have used and fought against are still Screens, DragMag and Stall. Even if the metagame is a bit more open than before, I am still under the impression that actions need to be taken.
I will say I have never liked the argument of "promoting diversity" as an argument for change, well, almost ever because at the end of the day metagames will always consist of a small selection of Pokémon alongside the occasional tech moves and Pokémon as a counter strategy. GSC OU is far from a diverse but it is a very stable format that many people love. If your entertainment depends on things changing then you will get bored very fast pretty much in any place including the healthy metagames.
I think between the banned threats of Manaphy and Gengar and the existing threats of Alakazam anf Latios, as well as others like Infernape, Breloom, Crawdaunt and more... It sort of just highlights an issue that the tier has as a whole, and that is the fact that there is too much offensive options and not enough defensive options, leaving teams with only so many choices. Thus it is generally easier to counter offense with offense of your own and thus we see so much priority and so many scarfers in the metagame.
There was a lot of offensive powercreep over the generations, but there was always a level of defensive powercreep as well that balanced it out to a degree. BDSP took many of those options away.
Alakazam itself, while it is a bit more linear than Gengar in regards to surprise sets it can pull, there is no denying its power, especially after a NP. Add in the fact that it is immune to passive damage thanks to Magic Guard, and its terrific speed tier and you are left with a pokemon whose best counterplay is priority and out offensing it. Some players may be fine with this, but personally I don't like it. We're already strapped for options as is, and I don't like that there is so little defensive counterplay, if any, to it.
This is something I pretty much 100% agree with but I enjoy it and think no changes are necessary rather than the other way around. I will also say that at this point it will not take a single ban as there is not really one that will cause a drastic shift in the metagame. You need to address either offensive threats with few offensive checks like Zam and Latios at the same time or address all the threats to balance as possible. The threat lists are relatively easy to replace at this stage.
I will say I have never liked the argument of "promoting diversity" as an argument for change, well, almost ever because at the end of the day metagames will always consist of a small selection of Pokémon alongside the occasional tech moves and Pokémon as a counter strategy. GSC OU is far from a diverse but it is a very stable format that many people love. If your entertainment depends on things changing then you will get bored very fast pretty much in any place including the healthy metagames.
On the contrary, metagames change all the time. See SS OU where Lando-T has started to drop off, Beat Up Weavile and Air Balloon Eruption Heatran have both evolved into top threats, Buzzwole going from forgettable to defensive staple, Blissey falling off, and the endless back-and-forth between Slowbro and Slowking depending on other trends.
Choosing GSC as your metric for a healthy metagame is very odd, considering it contains the single most broken OU Pokemon of all time in G2 Snorlax. But even in GSC things change, just more slowly due to the need to use Lax and Lax answers on every team. GSC was always thought of as a slow tier, but it has become very offensive as late. Heck, even RBY with its 3 broken Normals and OP Psychics sees change, where for a while Victreebel was considered the best lead in the metagame and outright broken VS "big 4" structures, now it's basically unviable as a lead. In competitive Pokemon, no matter the tier, the best way to win lots of games is to innovate. (Also comparing a metagame that's had over 20 years to settle to one that's been around a few months is odd, you'd expect the newer metagame to be much less stable.)
The problem he's referring to is innovation is very hard in the current metagame because of how hard the brokens (Read: Latios) punish you for stepping outside a set, proven structure. This has gotten better with the removal of Gengar and Manaphy, but it's still pretty hard to look past using SpD Scizor on every team that isn't HO even though it's not a great choice overall rn. You use it because you have to, not because you want to. Notably that's not something that happens in Gen 1 or Gen 2, and this is the primary reason people are ok with these brokens running rampant: their answers naturally exist in the metagame, and would be extremely good with or without them (not mention that unlike this gen, there is a very small pool of mons that are strong enough to be staples).
Tl;dr: Comparing this metagame to GSC is wrong on a number of grounds, but mostly on the basis Snorlax never forces you to use mons that are bad for anything but checking Lax to not lose to it. Latios pretty much mandates one of a very small group of mons with sets you don't actually want to use. This is the difference between healthy adaptation, and unhealthy adaptation.
To give a more clear-cut example from SS: Lando-T running more special bulk to take on Dragapult better is healthy adaptation. Having to run Mandibuzz, Phys Def Clef or Tapu Fini on every team to not die to Urshifu-S is unhealthy adaptation.
On the contrary, metagames change all the time. See SS OU...
Tl;dr: Comparing this metagame to GSC is wrong on a number of grounds, but mostly on the basis Snorlax never forces you to use mons that are bad for anything but checking Lax to not lose to it. Latios pretty much mandates one of a very small group of mons with sets you don't actually want to use. This is the difference between healthy adaptation, and unhealthy adaptation.
To give a more clear-cut example from SS: Lando-T running more special bulk to take on Dragapult better is healthy adaptation. Having to run Mandibuzz, Phys Def Clef or Tapu Fini on every team to not die to Urshifu-S is unhealthy adaptation.
SS OU is an ongoing metagame with a much larger fan base so the comparison and had a ban not too far off from Gengar too. A more apt comparison would be where DPP OU saw mons like Clefable, Milotic, and Nidoqueen spike close to a decade later but that was years later. Latios or really any singular mon at this point doesn't force you to run a particular Pokémon you would have to ban at least Zam, Latios, and even mons like his sister and Weavile if you want an actual change in Pokémon. We're already seeing a significant rise in Latias it just boils down to how this generation is, whether you like it or not is a different issue.
Also Thunder is run in GSC sorely for Snorlax and sets like Mean Look Charm Umbreon exist which is far better than the unneccessary and gimmicky Pokémon used in heat squads to check Latios are.
Not going to bother replying to the rest of your post because it's just one giant slippery slope fallacy (run some calcs with Specs Latias and seriously try and tell me that's somehow on the same level as Latios, the difference is big. Yeah you'll still need checks to it but they aren't all called SpD Scizor). Just wanted to point out this is blatantly untrue:
"Thunder's high chance of inflicting paralysis also makes Electric-types such as Raikou shakier at checking Zapdos, as they depend on their Speed to reliably deal with other foes such as Vaporeon and Cloyster. This high chance of paralysis on such a powerful move is an important reason why Zapdos can be so difficult to deal with—aside from Raikou, Pokemon such as Exeggutor, Tyranitar, Porygon2, and Gengar lose considerable effectiveness when they become paralyzed, and they will all need to risk this occasionally. Still, some teams may prefer the high PP and accuracy of Thunderbolt, which gives Zapdos more consistency against foes such as Vaporeon, Cloyster, Starmie, and Tentacruel."
Not going to bother replying to the rest of your post because it's just one giant slippery slope fallacy (run some calcs with Specs Latias and seriously try and tell me that's somehow on the same level as Latios, the difference is big. Yeah you'll still need checks to it but they aren't all called SpD Scizor). Just wanted to point out this is blatantly untrue.
You claimed that the Pokémon options are limited because of one Pokémon and if you think that mons like Scizor Blissey Heatran etc. would stop being everywhere and feel "forced" on the opponent you're not paying attention or something especially when Latias is one of the go to options in HO as is. I've been far more pressured by teambuilding by mons like Zam and Crawdaunt (the latter I definitely wouldn't call overpowered) than Latios there are simply too many "offensive powerful mons that requires checks with offensive utility."
Also nobody runs Thunderbolt ever and any GSC player will tell you it sucks pretty much solely because it doesn't hit Snorlax banning for the sake of diversity doesn't make a good meta, banning for the sake of a change is even worse.
is freed, after 3000 years...
@ Leftovers
but there's no point I don't think.
