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Oh yeah my bad i forgot the menacing rock tomb
yeah i really agree that the breloom is a very menacing threat to meta, has many sets and you need different counterplay for each set
1. sub punch
2. sub seed/toxic
3. scarf spore
4. scarf no spore
5. sash spore lead
6. banded
7. life orb
8. life orb swords dance
9. (kind of a meme) life orb + sludge bomb
Such a diversity of sets, whenever i see Breloom the entire way I lead has to change and certain pokemon become WAY more important than in non-Loom matchups. I think maybe only Mew has as many viable sets but never seems as threatening bc of mons like Weavile, Gengar (for now), and T-tar.
Recently been using a team that was posted by user DK95 on the sample teams thread that utilizes acrobatics gliscor with just enough speed for jolly loom - but i can still get screwed over by lead scarf spore/lead sash spore sets.
Ok i'll admit this is probably kind of a meme and this is very late but here we are.
Gengar as previously mentioned, is quite unhealthy for BDSP OU right now and it is currently going to receive a suspect test that i have hope it won't survive, it has quite a lot of sets that no single team won't be able to counter all of them, But I'm going to mess around and make a physical/mixed Gengar set!
now i just wanted to say, i dont think any physical set is actually viable, obviously not as viable as its other sets, i dont think its all that good for climbing the ladder, i dont think it'll win tournaments, but honestly if someone can make it work, plz let me know.
Now you might be thinking, Physical Gengar can't hit anything?
A list of physical calcs by Banded Gengar
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crawdaunt: 356-420 (133.3 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 164-194 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 566-668 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( if Blissey chooses to soft boiled off the damage then yeah it'll ohko after that)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 328-388 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 374-442 (103.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 576-680 (142.5 - 168.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 274-324 (109.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 284-336 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (this isn't really impressive but here we are.)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now from the looks of these calcs, Banded probably isn't nearly as impressive as specs or max spa LO but this has probably has THE MOST suprise factor out of any Gengar set. Imagine being low on hp but fast enough(after a couple of dragon dances or agility or scarf) to ohko gengar and then it just sucker punches you. Imagine Switching out into Blissey but then you see that "Gengar is focusing" thing and then Ur Blissey is just low on hp or even ohkoed. Imagine switching Scizor in and it just fire punches you. Now there is a lot of physically defensive Pokémon/Life orb attacks I didn't give calcs for because they were significantly less impressive, But you understand why.
And now for the sets:
Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb / Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Sucker Punch
- Focus Punch / Explosion / Drain Punch / Brick Break
Now replacing Sludge Bomb means you won't have any way to hit fairies, You could use thunder punch to hit waters, actually jk no you can't because they mostly all 3hko. You don't need much investment in attack to ohko or 2hko Gengar's checks actually!
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 364-432 (90 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 182-218 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( all though Blissey can soft boil, It'll have to spam soft boil and have it run out of pp since focus punch has more(or use shadow ball lmao) OR switch out.)
Gengar with sucker punch allows it to maybe pick stuff off of mons who are low on hp, if Alakazam is on low hp and the opponent knows Ur life orb, they won't be expecting a sucker punch. Ice punch can be an alternative to hit dragons but without investment it won't do much and LO + Rough skin is quite a lot of chip on Gengar.
Other options for this set would be replacing focus punch with explosion, this allows Gengar to hit waters more harder and give momentum to your team and just do general mid damage to Pokémon that don't resist explosion. You could use Drain punch to recover off LO chip/ regain hp for longevity or Brick break to break through screens offense easier but I don't recommend it.
Now this set is the more niche set, But it ACTUALLY hit's things this time. Stab Cb Shadow claw is very good spammable damage, banded sucker punch to actually pick off mons better, Focus punch and explosion are way stronger, Thunder punch now has the required power it needs to do something against waters(that aren't washtom).
Other options to this set are run specs or lo or nplot or subsludge or something and all special attacks and max 252 spa.
Could you make physical gengar work? I don't really know what would go with any of these sets so I would like ideas.
Ok i'll admit this is probably kind of a meme and this is very late but here we are.
Gengar as previously mentioned, is quite unhealthy for BDSP OU right now and it is currently going to receive a suspect test that i have hope it won't survive, it has quite a lot of sets that no single team won't be able to counter all of them, But I'm going to mess around and make a physical/mixed Gengar set!
now i just wanted to say, i dont think any physical set is actually viable, obviously not as viable as its other sets, i dont think its all that good for climbing the ladder, i dont think it'll win tournaments, but honestly if someone can make it work, plz let me know.
Now you might be thinking, Physical Gengar can't hit anything?
A list of physical calcs by Banded Gengar
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crawdaunt: 356-420 (133.3 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 164-194 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 566-668 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( if Blissey chooses to soft boiled off the damage then yeah it'll ohko after that)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 328-388 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 374-442 (103.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 576-680 (142.5 - 168.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 274-324 (109.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 284-336 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (this isn't really impressive but here we are.)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now from the looks of these calcs, Banded probably isn't nearly as impressive as specs or max spa LO but this has probably has THE MOST suprise factor out of any Gengar set. Imagine being low on hp but fast enough(after a couple of dragon dances or agility or scarf) to ohko gengar and then it just sucker punches you. Imagine Switching out into Blissey but then you see that "Gengar is focusing" thing and then Ur Blissey is just low on hp or even ohkoed. Imagine switching Scizor in and it just fire punches you. Now there is a lot of physically defensive Pokémon/Life orb attacks I didn't give calcs for because they were significantly less impressive, But you understand why.
And now for the sets:
Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb / Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Sucker Punch
- Focus Punch / Explosion / Drain Punch / Brick Break
Now replacing Sludge Bomb means you won't have any way to hit fairies, You could use thunder punch to hit waters, actually jk no you can't because they mostly all 3hko. You don't need much investment in attack to ohko or 2hko Gengar's checks actually!
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 364-432 (90 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 182-218 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( all though Blissey can soft boil, It'll have to spam soft boil and have it run out of pp since focus punch has more(or use shadow ball lmao) OR switch out.)
Gengar with sucker punch allows it to maybe pick stuff off of mons who are low on hp, if Alakazam is on low hp and the opponent knows Ur life orb, they won't be expecting a sucker punch. Ice punch can be an alternative to hit dragons but without investment it won't do much and LO + Rough skin is quite a lot of chip on Gengar.
Other options for this set would be replacing focus punch with explosion, this allows Gengar to hit waters more harder and give momentum to your team and just do general mid damage to Pokémon that don't resist explosion. You could use Drain punch to recover off LO chip/ regain hp for longevity or Brick break to break through screens offense easier but I don't recommend it.
Now this set is the more niche set, But it ACTUALLY hit's things this time. Stab Cb Shadow claw is very good spammable damage, banded sucker punch to actually pick off mons better, Focus punch and explosion are way stronger, Thunder punch now has the required power it needs to do something against waters(that aren't washtom).
Other options to this set are run specs or lo or nplot or subsludge or something and all special attacks and max 252 spa.
Could you make physical gengar work? I don't really know what would go with any of these sets so I would like ideas.
seems that one of the biggest applications of physical gengar you didn't touch on is the ability to remove opposing gengar with sucker punch. Always removing or threatening zam/gar and other common pokemon used to beat standard gengar sounds solid but some replays would go a long way if you're serious about it being a niche.
Ok i'll admit this is probably kind of a meme and this is very late but here we are.
Gengar as previously mentioned, is quite unhealthy for BDSP OU right now and it is currently going to receive a suspect test that i have hope it won't survive, it has quite a lot of sets that no single team won't be able to counter all of them, But I'm going to mess around and make a physical/mixed Gengar set!
now i just wanted to say, i dont think any physical set is actually viable, obviously not as viable as its other sets, i dont think its all that good for climbing the ladder, i dont think it'll win tournaments, but honestly if someone can make it work, plz let me know.
Now you might be thinking, Physical Gengar can't hit anything?
A list of physical calcs by Banded Gengar
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crawdaunt: 356-420 (133.3 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 164-194 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 566-668 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( if Blissey chooses to soft boiled off the damage then yeah it'll ohko after that)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 328-388 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 374-442 (103.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 576-680 (142.5 - 168.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 274-324 (109.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 284-336 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (this isn't really impressive but here we are.)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now from the looks of these calcs, Banded probably isn't nearly as impressive as specs or max spa LO but this has probably has THE MOST suprise factor out of any Gengar set. Imagine being low on hp but fast enough(after a couple of dragon dances or agility or scarf) to ohko gengar and then it just sucker punches you. Imagine Switching out into Blissey but then you see that "Gengar is focusing" thing and then Ur Blissey is just low on hp or even ohkoed. Imagine switching Scizor in and it just fire punches you. Now there is a lot of physically defensive Pokémon/Life orb attacks I didn't give calcs for because they were significantly less impressive, But you understand why.
And now for the sets:
Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb / Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Sucker Punch
- Focus Punch / Explosion / Drain Punch / Brick Break
Now replacing Sludge Bomb means you won't have any way to hit fairies, You could use thunder punch to hit waters, actually jk no you can't because they mostly all 3hko. You don't need much investment in attack to ohko or 2hko Gengar's checks actually!
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 364-432 (90 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 182-218 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( all though Blissey can soft boil, It'll have to spam soft boil and have it run out of pp since focus punch has more(or use shadow ball lmao) OR switch out.)
Gengar with sucker punch allows it to maybe pick stuff off of mons who are low on hp, if Alakazam is on low hp and the opponent knows Ur life orb, they won't be expecting a sucker punch. Ice punch can be an alternative to hit dragons but without investment it won't do much and LO + Rough skin is quite a lot of chip on Gengar.
Other options for this set would be replacing focus punch with explosion, this allows Gengar to hit waters more harder and give momentum to your team and just do general mid damage to Pokémon that don't resist explosion. You could use Drain punch to recover off LO chip/ regain hp for longevity or Brick break to break through screens offense easier but I don't recommend it.
Now this set is the more niche set, But it ACTUALLY hit's things this time. Stab Cb Shadow claw is very good spammable damage, banded sucker punch to actually pick off mons better, Focus punch and explosion are way stronger, Thunder punch now has the required power it needs to do something against waters(that aren't washtom).
Other options to this set are run specs or lo or nplot or subsludge or something and all special attacks and max 252 spa.
Could you make physical gengar work? I don't really know what would go with any of these sets so I would like ideas.
This is very Gimmick for sure.
For those who doesn't know what gimmick set is, gimmick set is some sort of set that only works if your opponent doesn't think of it.
For this gimmick Gengar set, I think it works best with Bliseey, as Most of Blissey expect the Ranged set
Also in my opinion, the sucker punch is a must.
Despite it's already high speed, the priority is still useful for faster stuff, such as:
Latios:
200+ Atk Choice Band Gengar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Alakazam:
200+ Atk Choice Band Gengar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Alakazam: 268-316 (106.7 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And opposing gengar:
200+ Atk Choice Band Gengar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Overall, i think this is a very interesting and fun to use as nobody is expecting Melee Gengar gimmick, especially when Gengar is being suspect banned for it being overpowered in its ranged set
I just want to quickly post some mons that can fight back against Gengar for offensive teams.
Honchkrow: with Priority Sucker Punch and STAB, this thing can cleanly defeat all variants of Gengar except the bulky sets, which even then have to run Will o Wisp to avoid getting knocked down by Night Slashes as it tries to set up a substitute. Even burned, it will be cleanly 2HKOed and sometimes OHKOed after Stealth Rock. While mostly used on offensive teams, it is an option and will scare away Gengar most of the time.
Drapion: Scarf sets can surprise non scarf variants of Gengar and kill with STAB Knock Off. Has enough bulk to warrant investment and it is skilled enough to consider trying from time to time. While niche, it is powerful and has good match ups against a surprising number of opponents.
Absol: Like Honchkrow, except also able to add a Focus Sash set with sucker punch and swords dance. Pretty self-explanatory.
Weavile: Is naturally faster than Gengar and can take it down with Throat Chop and the scariest set is probably choice band variants which have the power to support the team fighting Gengar. That said, this is also capable of being a scarf user that can outrun Scarf Gengar and is worth considering for offensive teams.
Tyranitar: Arguably the bulkiest dark type for OU that can give consistent results against Gengar, even without Pursuit, as it threatens to wear down Gengar's teammates as it is forced to retreat lest it get Earthquaked or Crunched to death. Can also set up Dragon Dance and adds sandstorm. A solid answer to Gengar. Only fears burns, which it could remove with Lum Berry, and being tricked which while annoying is manageable. Focus Blast if it hits is a major problem but the move is unreliable and can be mitigated with a berry to reduce damage, with Sandstorm adding another boost to it's special defense.
Crawdaunt: Knock Off will always kill in the event it can survive a hit, but beyond that is Aqua Jet which with adaptability is a powerful asset. Pretty reliable but very afraid of thunderbolts.
Gengar being suspect tested isn't unreasonable and it is certainly a powerful mon but there do exist viable dark types to fight it. These are some mons to consider as dark types are the best bet to fighting ghost.
I just want to quickly post some mons that can fight back against Gengar for offensive teams.
Honchkrow: with Priority Sucker Punch and STAB, this thing can cleanly defeat all variants of Gengar except the bulky sets, which even then have to run Will o Wisp to avoid getting knocked down by Night Slashes as it tries to set up a substitute. Even burned, it will be cleanly 2HKOed and sometimes OHKOed after Stealth Rock. While mostly used on offensive teams, it is an option and will scare away Gengar most of the time.
Drapion: Scarf sets can surprise non scarf variants of Gengar and kill with STAB Knock Off. Has enough bulk to warrant investment and it is skilled enough to consider trying from time to time. While niche, it is powerful and has good match ups against a surprising number of opponents.
Absol: Like Honchkrow, except also able to add a Focus Sash set with sucker punch and swords dance. Pretty self-explanatory.
Weavile: Is naturally faster than Gengar and can take it down with Throat Chop and the scariest set is probably choice band variants which have the power to support the team fighting Gengar. That said, this is also capable of being a scarf user that can outrun Scarf Gengar and is worth considering for offensive teams.
Tyranitar: Arguably the bulkiest dark type for OU that can give consistent results against Gengar, even without Pursuit, as it threatens to wear down Gengar's teammates as it is forced to retreat lest it get Earthquaked or Crunched to death. Can also set up Dragon Dance and adds sandstorm. A solid answer to Gengar. Only fears burns, which it could remove with Lum Berry, and being tricked which while annoying is manageable. Focus Blast if it hits is a major problem but the move is unreliable and can be mitigated with a berry to reduce damage, with Sandstorm adding another boost to it's special defense.
Crawdaunt: Knock Off will always kill in the event it can survive a hit, but beyond that is Aqua Jet which with adaptability is a powerful asset. Pretty reliable but very afraid of thunderbolts.
Gengar being suspect tested isn't unreasonable and it is certainly a powerful mon but there do exist viable dark types to fight it. These are some mons to consider as dark types are the best bet to fighting ghost.
Drapion, Absol and Honchkrow are not viable in the tier (unless i missed some crazy tech innovation recently, which wouldn't be surprising as I am small brain). Not to mention the Honch scenario is not realistic. Gengar won't generally try to set up a sub in front of something that threatens it. So Honch does not beat all Gengar varients except bulky ones. And also Honch does not switch into Gar except shadow ball. And is SR weak.
Crawdaunt cannot switch into Gengar. Specs 2HKOs, and of course focus miss nukes it outright no matter the set. Plus Daunt's aqua jet only 2HKOs so it needs major chip on Gengar to achieve a KO.
Weavile can threaten Gar and even switch into shadow ball, but its stealth rock weakness and not having access to heavy duty boots limits the times it can do this. In fact,
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 111-132 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It can only really do it once.
Ttar is the best ghost resist, but it still is far from perfect and cannot check every Gengar set at one time. The other best switch in is Blissey who still has to tread cautiously for focus blast (by the way its accuracy is not an argument against Gengar).
I do admire when people try to search for answers to a mon when it is deemed broken, but there is a reason why it is considered overbearing. Too strong, too many sets and not enough reliable answers to it. And so I would not miss Gar at all if it left the tier.
Ok i'll admit this is probably kind of a meme and this is very late but here we are.
Gengar as previously mentioned, is quite unhealthy for BDSP OU right now and it is currently going to receive a suspect test that i have hope it won't survive, it has quite a lot of sets that no single team won't be able to counter all of them, But I'm going to mess around and make a physical/mixed Gengar set!
now i just wanted to say, i dont think any physical set is actually viable, obviously not as viable as its other sets, i dont think its all that good for climbing the ladder, i dont think it'll win tournaments, but honestly if someone can make it work, plz let me know.
Now you might be thinking, Physical Gengar can't hit anything?
A list of physical calcs by Banded Gengar
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crawdaunt: 356-420 (133.3 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 164-194 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 566-668 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( if Blissey chooses to soft boiled off the damage then yeah it'll ohko after that)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 328-388 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 374-442 (103.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 576-680 (142.5 - 168.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 274-324 (109.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 284-336 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (this isn't really impressive but here we are.)
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now from the looks of these calcs, Banded probably isn't nearly as impressive as specs or max spa LO but this has probably has THE MOST suprise factor out of any Gengar set. Imagine being low on hp but fast enough(after a couple of dragon dances or agility or scarf) to ohko gengar and then it just sucker punches you. Imagine Switching out into Blissey but then you see that "Gengar is focusing" thing and then Ur Blissey is just low on hp or even ohkoed. Imagine switching Scizor in and it just fire punches you. Now there is a lot of physically defensive Pokémon/Life orb attacks I didn't give calcs for because they were significantly less impressive, But you understand why.
And now for the sets:
Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb / Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Sucker Punch
- Focus Punch / Explosion / Drain Punch / Brick Break
Now replacing Sludge Bomb means you won't have any way to hit fairies, You could use thunder punch to hit waters, actually jk no you can't because they mostly all 3hko. You don't need much investment in attack to ohko or 2hko Gengar's checks actually!
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 364-432 (90 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 12+ Def Scizor: 182-218 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( all though Blissey can soft boil, It'll have to spam soft boil and have it run out of pp since focus punch has more(or use shadow ball lmao) OR switch out.)
Gengar with sucker punch allows it to maybe pick stuff off of mons who are low on hp, if Alakazam is on low hp and the opponent knows Ur life orb, they won't be expecting a sucker punch. Ice punch can be an alternative to hit dragons but without investment it won't do much and LO + Rough skin is quite a lot of chip on Gengar.
Other options for this set would be replacing focus punch with explosion, this allows Gengar to hit waters more harder and give momentum to your team and just do general mid damage to Pokémon that don't resist explosion. You could use Drain punch to recover off LO chip/ regain hp for longevity or Brick break to break through screens offense easier but I don't recommend it.
Now this set is the more niche set, But it ACTUALLY hit's things this time. Stab Cb Shadow claw is very good spammable damage, banded sucker punch to actually pick off mons better, Focus punch and explosion are way stronger, Thunder punch now has the required power it needs to do something against waters(that aren't washtom).
Other options to this set are run specs or lo or nplot or subsludge or something and all special attacks and max 252 spa.
Could you make physical gengar work? I don't really know what would go with any of these sets so I would like ideas.
I just want to quickly post some mons that can fight back against Gengar for offensive teams.
Honchkrow: with Priority Sucker Punch and STAB, this thing can cleanly defeat all variants of Gengar except the bulky sets, which even then have to run Will o Wisp to avoid getting knocked down by Night Slashes as it tries to set up a substitute. Even burned, it will be cleanly 2HKOed and sometimes OHKOed after Stealth Rock. While mostly used on offensive teams, it is an option and will scare away Gengar most of the time.
Drapion: Scarf sets can surprise non scarf variants of Gengar and kill with STAB Knock Off. Has enough bulk to warrant investment and it is skilled enough to consider trying from time to time. While niche, it is powerful and has good match ups against a surprising number of opponents.
Absol: Like Honchkrow, except also able to add a Focus Sash set with sucker punch and swords dance. Pretty self-explanatory.
Weavile: Is naturally faster than Gengar and can take it down with Throat Chop and the scariest set is probably choice band variants which have the power to support the team fighting Gengar. That said, this is also capable of being a scarf user that can outrun Scarf Gengar and is worth considering for offensive teams.
Tyranitar: Arguably the bulkiest dark type for OU that can give consistent results against Gengar, even without Pursuit, as it threatens to wear down Gengar's teammates as it is forced to retreat lest it get Earthquaked or Crunched to death. Can also set up Dragon Dance and adds sandstorm. A solid answer to Gengar. Only fears burns, which it could remove with Lum Berry, and being tricked which while annoying is manageable. Focus Blast if it hits is a major problem but the move is unreliable and can be mitigated with a berry to reduce damage, with Sandstorm adding another boost to it's special defense.
Crawdaunt: Knock Off will always kill in the event it can survive a hit, but beyond that is Aqua Jet which with adaptability is a powerful asset. Pretty reliable but very afraid of thunderbolts.
Gengar being suspect tested isn't unreasonable and it is certainly a powerful mon but there do exist viable dark types to fight it. These are some mons to consider as dark types are the best bet to fighting ghost.
Honchkrow, Drapion and Absol aren't that viable in OU, while Weavile surely can rkill Gengar only Tyranitar can switch in a Shadow Ball outta the last three, since the other two can't eat two Specs Shadow Balls (the most used set right now), and Tyranitar dies to Focus Blast anyway... if anything this shows how counterplay is limited to two Pokémon, one of which is niche, while the others can rkill at best
A lot of discussion about Specs Gengar not having many switch-ins made me think about possible unexplored tanks. I know Hippo can tank a couple ShadowBalls, so I thought maybe Chomp can too.
I think this set is fun, especially with rough-skin which is underrated chip against annoying U-turn spam and can sometimes made the difference in close matchups. Additionally, Chomp is a solid rocker and even with a -SpAttack nature FireBlast is a solid 2hit KO on SpDef Scizor.
The set:
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Fire Blast
Some Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 157-186 (37.3 - 44.2%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 177-208 (42.1 - 49.5%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 118-139 (28 - 33%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 343-406 (81.6 - 96.6%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 316-372 (75.2 - 88.5%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 158-188 (37.6 - 44.7%)
0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 164-196 (39 - 46.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 352-416 (83.8 - 99%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 342-404 (81.4 - 96.1%)
Thoughts:
SpDef Chomp is kinda surprisingly resilient, and can serve as a surprise tank in situations. I think the biggest flaw is it's inability to really do anything serious back to threats, although EQ can chunk quite heavily. I think a set like this would pair well with wish support from something like Jirachi or Clef. I also think you 100% need a Latios answer if this is running on your team.
Kind of a meme, but some memes have great potential.
A lot of discussion about Specs Gengar not having many switch-ins made me think about possible unexplored tanks. I know Hippo can tank a couple ShadowBalls, so I thought maybe Chomp can too.
I think this set is fun, especially with rough-skin which is underrated chip against annoying U-turn spam and can sometimes made the difference in close matchups. Additionally, Chomp is a solid rocker and even with a -SpAttack nature FireBlast is a solid 2hit KO on SpDef Scizor.
The set:
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Fire Blast
Some Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 157-186 (37.3 - 44.2%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 177-208 (42.1 - 49.5%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 118-139 (28 - 33%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 343-406 (81.6 - 96.6%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 316-372 (75.2 - 88.5%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 158-188 (37.6 - 44.7%)
0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 164-196 (39 - 46.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 352-416 (83.8 - 99%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 342-404 (81.4 - 96.1%)
Thoughts:
SpDef Chomp is kinda surprisingly resilient, and can serve as a surprise tank in situations. I think the biggest flaw is it's inability to really do anything serious back to threats, although EQ can chunk quite heavily. I think a set like this would pair well with wish support from something like Jirachi or Clef. I also think you 100% need a Latios answer if this is running on your team.
Kind of a meme, but some memes have great potential.
I absolutely love this, its just that my problem with this is that stuff like wisptom/mamoswine/dragonite/gliscor, ect become mons that give even more trouble to garchomp that garchomp usually can brute force through/overpower through (idk if garchomp brute forced through gliscor anyways but i think u understand) This set, like my physicalgar set also seems gimmicky but I see potential in this, as in a way to suprise the opponent and im thinking about using this with my physicalgar set or maybe try to make it work with stall....
I see lots of people calling Drapion unviable, but Sdef one with Restalk, Knock Off and Acupressure is a legit win condition in some teams. I used one in several teams, including during the Manaphy suspect and despite grounds existing, the most common one is Gliscor, who not always has SD. One defense Boost is enough to defeat SD less Gliscors and Drapion has enough bulk and chances to randomly throw Acupressures across the match. It's legit enough to be brought in a Gengar ( and Alakazam) meta and isnt very hard to fit into teams, since Umbreon, Tyranitar and Spiritomb are only competition as bulky Dark, none of which can resist Ghost without being weak to Fight at the same time.
Drapion being viable counterplay is not enough though. I won't be doing this suspect, but would vote Ban to Gengar if I did.
Well, to preface this: welcome to our newest official OU members™, and (the former by usage, the latter by quickban; ironically both have 35%ish usage in UU, rip); not sure why Donphan managed to stay in OU with such a large margin (8.92962%, more than double the required %) since the DON doesn't really offer anything special and you should usually use Gliscor unless you have such a dragon weakness you need that shard for some unholy reason, while Mence is still gonna play second banana behind Tios, Chomp and DNite in all their purposes, so nothing new on this front. Well then, let's address the huge metal-plated elephant in the room.
Thank you for leaving Latios unbanned, by the way; while arguably Scizor being that present in this meta is not just only Latios' fault (more on that real soon), it's still one of the big reasons it's here to carry this whole metagame on its shoulders (worth of note SDef Scizor has double the usage of EVERY other set), and its getting heavy for him to do it. Like I said, Latios is just one of the bigger problems of the picture, but things like Gengar and Alakazam don't do it any favours, and like I said in a earlier post and multiple times in either chat or cord with a lot of people that can testify, we KNEW this would get to problematic levels real soon, since the tier is very ill-equipped to deal with all these specially busted threats at once. Right now the metagame is overrelying on Scizor to help check them all, and the sheer amount of usage the metal bug is receiving won't get down any time soon until *some* threat is addressed; feel free to choose which one, although the usage stats speak from themselves.
Also I wanna note how its either first or second in EVERY Pokémon out of the top 10 (down until Magnezone, actually, and for obvious reasons) in the list of their most used teammates.
Latios fell a bit from last month, although to be extremely fair those usage stats also had the short but intense tenure of Latios having to deal with Blaziken and its very solid mainstay in rain teams, sooooo... Other than that, nothing new here; Gliscor is a very solid glue to most teams and its ability to be extremely flexible in their job speaks from itself; best Defogger in the tier, very solid pivot, has a very wide array of support options and the Speed to use them all, plus SD sets to be able to get fitted in more offensive teams; nothing to say, from stall to offense having a ground immunity of Gliscor's caliber is nothing short of vital; the other two are the usual slew of Broken Ass Dragons, with Latios carpet bombing an enemy team when their Steel resist is weakened, and Garchomp taking no survivors since nothing tanks every set it can have, and its a perfectly competent Rocker too (noting how Fire Blast has 28% usage on its movepool OVERALL is a great statement on how we're really in desperate need of Scizor-killing tools, although it's also arguably more useful to getting away from Skarmory); really, we talked about Latios enough to know where it should be in this meta, and nothing will change that.
Something tells me we have problems to solve in this mess of a offensive tier we're in... eh, must have been the wind. Jokes aside, remember how I talked about the Four Big Ones, ravagers of the meta? (Latios, Manaphy, Gengar and Alakazam); while Latios is up there, and the other two are... surprisingly a bit far ahead, Gengar landed FIFTH. This is truly a testament on how the metagame is struggling to find a ghost resist decent enough to handle a offensive behemoth like this spooky ghost, arguably also thanks to its newfound access to Nasty Plot in its already extensive array of tricks in his bag; stallbreaker, revengekiller, cleaner; you name it, Gengar can do it, and only a very few Pokèmon can stop it. We're such in deep trouble against special breakers that Blissey has to be ran CALM to actually being able to live enough to represent a threat to them, and the playerbase chose Gengar to showcase it. With good reasons, I might add.
Now, aside from pointing out how Heatran resurfaced (finally), even in a meta full of Gliscors, the rest of the top15 ain't exactly special (although we can easily make an argument on the slow decline of Clefable because it can't quite deal with all the threats the meta is facing right know, especially with limited recovery making it sacrifice two slots for it, restricting a lot its already barren set variety, so...); let's talk about something VERY discussed until recently, then:
You might wonder why it's this down, and honestly there's just a simple reason; you don't actually need to run it to threaten the whole existence of an archetype, and the meta (also thanks to Latios' missed departure) adapted to it, and so it became clear how this happy bundle of blue joy isn't infesting everything and everyone with its light. But the point I wanna make is another: We know the playerbase in general was pretty vocal in banning Manaphy, yet... they're not even using it. Unfiltered usages rank Manaphy two spots lower, at 9%, while rising through the ladder you actually have MORE Manaphys showing up (up to 12%), meaning we're still seeing it, but not much on the low ladder. It's weird how this is basically contradictory, but also a interesting trend to note; regardless, we can argue that Manaphy is still winning a lot of games up there, and it's still a very threatening presence to face, especially on Screens HO, very famously used to farm said ladder, although Kickoff tour for now didn't offer THAT many Manaphy games either, so I still find the opinions to be rather mixed on this. I guess we'll see on our first official circuit tour?
Last Pokémon I wanna point out:
- I find it a bit weird in how Alakazam is still this """"low"""" (well, by comparison), but to be fair the playerbase didn't quite catch up on it straight away, although, like Gengar, we're finally seeing how this beast is performing on the metagame thanks to access to Nasty Plot. But of course, unlike Gengar this brainac actually has more issues in the forms of priority, and being almost entirely itemlocked on either Sash (the usual one) or Orb (for stallbreaking purposes, and worthy of note they almost have similar usage, with Sash having 56% against Orb's 40%) makes it more predictable, and slightly harder to fit on a team than its spooky counterpart. But make no mistake, like Gengar this Pokémon is straight up a menace and it doesn't matter if you know its set when you can get smacked by a late Zam sweep, and it's another reason on why we still need a lot of Scarfers, Weaviles and priorities in the tier.
- Also happy in seeing Tyranitar rise again to decent competitive levels, thanks to the current meta trend we're facing; our not so friendly kaiju is one of the best Rockers you can have in the tier out of its sheer capacity of beating every single other hazard remover at full, and running Resist berries makes it even better doubling as a lure for a lot of Pokémon that would otherwise cook it, like Crunching a Gengar to death after eating a good old Chople Berry, or just settling on the usual Band to demolish every check in its way. Nothing new, you all know what Tyranitar does (= everything), I'm just happy to see it again, and it's certainly quite welcome in a tier filled to the brim with threats like Latios, Gengar and Alakazam.
- Last but definitely not least, it took only two week of intensive usage to get to see Feraligatr at its peak, in a tier where it can reign almost supreme after a DD, with nothing eating two of its hits, and having the Speed to not even needing to DD sometimes. Paired with its actually decent bulk, this Pokèmon both packs enough of a punch to just being able to 2HKO the Unaware fatties, but also a good boosting move and Speed to end the life of a lot of current offense teams, especially under Screens or just dealing with the opponent's scarfer of choice, since it will take way more than a priority to beat the crocodile down. I swear, this Pokémon is a threat and you should always be prepared to face it, because I honestly think it's the most consistent Water-type to get easy kills, and it would be even higher if it didn't have good competition in the likes of Azumarill and Starmie (ofc, both for different secondary purposes); I'm totally expecting to see all three gain spots in the next month, if the meta stays like this.
Overall you might already know what my opinion on the meta is currently, and I'm honestly just expecting our first Circuit tournament to see if I'm right, but the metagame, while fun to play and fairly offense paced with also a good presence of stall, it's still a complete mess, and just that Scizor up there is a huge red (hah) flag, not to mention how most non-stall games always end in trading blows until the Steel die, or trading pieces and winning a sack war over a good turn (if anyone says "but this is how you play offense" I'll turn off their computer remotely bc this isnt the point im trying to make) and we have to do something to ease the pressure off it, be banning Latios (which is still my favourite option) or Gengar (and subsequently Manaphy, since right now the only thing holding Manaphy down from its true potential is the presence of bigger fish to fry). Still very disappointed in the suspect results, although the tier still feels fun to play for me since i'm a HO addict, but still we can't keep this up forever trying to scrape around with lure sets and using subpar sets to have a chance into using anything that isn't a hyper offense (I hope not, at least)
btw its midnight and I would study the moveset data and the overall usages more but you have to just see for yourselves
January stats are upon us, and with that a new post by yours truly
First off, rip , god bless your soul in UU; probably what happened is that people realized such a volatile Steel-type like Empoleon is hard to justify without any recovery and with Heatran covering the role of a rocker better, while its Defog services aren't required in a tier with Scizor, Gliscor, Starmie and the like; that, and his niche in covering Manaphy wasn't that valuable led inevitably to its demise really wish you had Roost now, please HOME make at least this happen
That being said, we can see how the top 2 is basically unchanged, although worthy of note that Gliscor lost a good 4% in usage, but what's surprising is after that (December top10 in spoilers):
Rotom-Wash unarguably won third place just by virtue of being the best pivot in the game, barring Scizor, and by being the best offensive one at that: keeping Trick made it invaluable in keeping its Scarf sets the strongest they ever been, especially in a metagame as offensive as this, and gaining Nasty Plot only made it better by giving birth of one of the strongest sets that can deal with stall almost standalone; of course, Rotom-W has also considerable set variance, being able to use Will-O-Wisp and/or Thunder Wave to support the team, and Leftovers are still welcome for it, especially on bulkier sets; although even there, some Scarf Rotom-W can also go with bulkier spreads with enough speed to cover Weavile, if needed. Blessed typing, good set variance, and one of the few to have kept Trick in its moveslot made Rotom-W truly a force to be reckoned with.
Gengar, unsurprisingly, gained a place and 4%, and for good reasons, so honestly just read the posts before this or go in the suspect thread to read those, we already talked so much about this Pokèmon and I'm not surprised at all by this. Though I must say, im surprised for...
Garchomp didn't lose anything here, a place below but with 2% more in usage, and it's easy to see why; strong offensive presence, a lot of set variance, ranging from LO SD 3 atks, to rocks (even Meteor mixed rocks! it has 5% usage), to Scarf, to Yache, and we can go on and on, but we all know what Garchomp does and why its so good; while it can't do everything at once and it doesn't have the perfect Speed tier, it's good enough and it's such a powerful presence in the tier you'd honestly lie to yourself not naming him the strongest Ground-type in the tier, something that you *need* on a team (be Chomp itself, Gliscor, Donphan or another), period. Meanwhile, Latios lost three whole places and a whopping 4% in usage these days, but analyzing high ladder usages tells us that it's more of the high ladder trend of playing Stall, since in 1760 usages there are 4/6 of a stallbuild in top10, and you can use Starmie and Skarmory to round it up; still, Latios here lost some places, and to be fair I can see why, since a lot of HO builds (especially things like Webs or Screens) don't really care about using Latios, Scizor being invaluable in most builds, and stall is a complete shutdown to it, but even with all this Latios is still crazy good on offense matchups, and being one of the few Pokémon reliably being able to stop Rotom-W from doing anything but pivoting around, united with his amazing offensive qualities, makes it still very, very scary to find yourself against it. Shame though, current trends are more for wallbreaker these days.
Only gained a place, but the usage is grossly the same, so I don't have a lot to say on this; arguably thanks to Manaphy's departure more set variance opened for it, and the need of a double recovery lessened a bit, while high ladder usages puts this Pokèmon in third place, showcasing Stall's ease of use and being a win-grabber these days. I'm all for the resurrection of offensive MGuard LO sets, though (yes, it gained usage)
Azumarill made it in! Heatran is steadily rising again! And Breloom lost three places and 3%! Well, waterspam being one of the cruxes of standard HO is nothing new, and Azumarill being able to fit in those teams and in standard offense to check dragons and pummel the oppo with strong Banded attacks, while making them secondguess if you will drum or not, is what makes it viable, and so dangerous; nothing much to say here, the meta is favoring it a lot, as well as Heatran for being one of the strongest Rockers in the tier while keeping the likes of Scizor and Weavile at bay, which are only getting increasingly stronger. Lastly, F for Breloom, not fast enough to be useful except for priority purposes, while finding OTHER priorities that kills it, and Scarfloom basically died when Manaphy did, while Orb sets while strong are also less long lasting, and Sash don't quite break Scizor or Gliscor; also quite limited by Gengar, Latios/Latias, and the good bunch of sleep absorbers we have, so... (not to mention PHeal sets that just don't quite work, although I'll predict a bit of a surge of them from now on, especially if Gengar gets banned, since SubToxic sets are crazy good against BO/balance cores)
The top10 covered, here's what I also find interesting:
If you were asking what the dog doin, the answer is that it gained EIGHT places and an astounding 6% in usage! It has basically 0 set variance, but Lucario has all it needs to shred holes in most teams, since while he's quite easily stopped by the likes of Gliscor and can't quite deal with stall alone, it can easily finish it off, as well as deal with most current offense teams. Shame it gives Gengar a free switchin after a kill, but its qualities in HO are so strong you can't basically trade it off with anyone else, except maybe offensive LO Scizor and SD Infernape. Truly a beast in what it does.
Almost in top15, unsurprising in how this Pokèmon is the strongest stallbreaker in the entire game, and with the amount of good pivots we have it's also fairly easy chomping one or two kills with this like nothing. Really, when it enters the field all you can do is picking the sack, there's genuinely nothing else behind it. Glad its speed is trash and has almost no stats outside that giant ass Attack, because otherwise this thing would get in like quintuple Ubers if its other stats were actually good, especially Speed. Gained six places in the last month, and I only suspect this trend will keep up.
A bit disappointed by these three... Weavile and Gator lost 1%, while Alakazam only lost places; still, while Weavile, no matter the set, can get easily rkilled or even tanked by higher usage mons (even mixdef Scizor, which is a set gaining usage), and Heatran being one of his biggest defensive threats, the sheer amount of pressure that forces on the likes of Latios, Gengar and Alakazam, while still being a threat to a lot of other Pokémon in the meta makes me wonder why it lost places. It's still a force to be reckoned with, but needing the good old Choice Band to reach appropriate power levels since losing its strongest STABs, and SD sets being quite lacking right now makes you see why it's just shy of the top20, arguably for good reasons. Alakazam needs to be higher though, right now being one of the most discussed presences and what the players dubbed "the big four", alongside Latios, Gengar and Manaphy; it certainly lacks the destructive power of the former two since almost always being relegated to Sash for offense matchups, but Plot and the INSANE amount of support moves it has other than the usual 3 atks sets makes it very threatening as soon as you see it on Team Preview. Arguably easier for stall to manage, it can make or break most offense matchups, even finding itself slotted in Screens or Webs to be a safety net; While big, the only thing that Alakazam lacks is consistency, since it can't do everything at once, its firepower is lacking and also relies into hitting Focus Blasts to get kills, and its staying power is even less impressive, as soon as you break its Sash. What I can't actually comprehend is how Feraligatr actually *lost* usage here. I get that Crawdaunt and Azumarill are more consistent in their job, and Starmie and Rotom-W are also good Water-types, but I still think DD Feraligatr is the scariest statupper in the tier. Sure, its base Speed is a bit lacking, especially since it needs Adamant/Naughty, but holy shit it wrecks teams and you basically need a scarfer + a priority to deal with it, if played correctly, every time. I get that it's something a lot of Pokèmon can do, but Feraligatr is genuinely terrifying to face, so what gives? Well, the meta learned to deal with it passively, since fast scarfers and priorities are as usual, almost needed, while stall also learned a pair of tricks, since something like TWave Clef, Skarmory, Slowbro and Tangrowth can eventually dwindle it. Still, I 100% think this is still an underdog and its one of the strongest statuppers we have in the tier, showed in how Waterspam HOs usually use it alongside Azumarill, so I hope we'll see Feraligatr climbing a bit more, especially with Manaphy out.
Last thoughts to conclude this post: I like how the Manaphy ban freed a bit of a chokehold on the builder, so people started experimenting more with things like Slowbro stall, MGuard Clef or some scarfers that didnt got much of a chance to be used until now, like Scarf Mamoswine, and I expect that Gengar going out will relax some builds even more, and while Stall doesn't really care about either two it will conserve the huge advantage it has over other builds for a good while. Still, even with that in mind, the variance in the meta is steadily growing, and I'm glad to see shifts are actually happening by themselves. I definitely wanna see what this meta is going to be post Gengar (hoping it gets banned, but it will probably be), and I'm glad almost everything is starting to be playable. Cheers
Is it just me or Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier right now. Gengar is still manageable because you can potentially live a hit and revenge kill it. There are some solid checks to Gengar like Blissey, Spdef Tran, Spdef Scizor. However Defensive Togekiss has no good checks in the Tier right now, Heatran's are not running Taunt. Spamming Thunder Wave across the whole tier. Air Slash is the most spammable move with very few checks. There is no Koko or Zapdos in the Tier. Just blindly click Twave, nasty Plot up and Win the game. Question of revenge killing doesn't come as you are gonna get para flinched to death. I have seen Blissey's get flinched down.
Defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier rn. Almost every Team has one.
Though I started the trend and initially spread the plague, but when something is broken, appropriate action needs to be taken.
Togekiss lives every hit, even eats a banded Icicle Crash from Weavile and destroys it. Twave, nasty Plot sets are extremely dangerous. The worst part is, getting a Nasty Plot up is way too easy which you can't do easily using other mons.
Fell free to share opinion regarding Togekiss.
Is it just me or Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier right now. Gengar is still manageable because you can potentially live a hit and revenge kill it. There are some solid checks to Gengar like Blissey, Spdef Tran, Spdef Scizor. However Defensive Togekiss has no good checks in the Tier right now, Heatran's are not running Taunt. Spamming Thunder Wave across the whole tier. Air Slash is the most spammable move with very few checks. There is no Koko or Zapdos in the Tier. Just blindly click Twave, nasty Plot up and Win the game. Question of revenge killing doesn't come as you are gonna get para flinched to death. I have seen Blissey's get flinched down.
Defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier rn. Almost every Team has one.
Though I started the trend and initially spread the plague, but when something is broken, appropriate action needs to be taken.
Togekiss lives every hit, even eats a banded Icicle Crash from Weavile and destroys it. Twave, nasty Plot sets are extremely dangerous. The worst part is, getting a Nasty Plot up is way too easy which you can't do easily using other mons.
Fell free to share opinion regarding Togekiss.
Personally don't think togekiss is definable as "broken" in comparison to gengar. You can live a hit and potentially revenge kill it, but the checks that you mentioned aside from blissey can easily be worn down by just spamming shadow ball and hazards in the field. Let alone a spdef scizor, it cannot even reliably switch into a shadow ball as it is guaranteed a 2hko with rocks in the field. As for togekiss, scarf rotom wash and magnezone are omnipresent in the meta. Sure you can click nasty plot and potentially late game sweep when all of its Threats have been eliminated. Gengar is still far more problematic than togekiss in the metagame.
Is it just me or Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier right now. Gengar is still manageable because you can potentially live a hit and revenge kill it. There are some solid checks to Gengar like Blissey, Spdef Tran, Spdef Scizor. However Defensive Togekiss has no good checks in the Tier right now, Heatran's are not running Taunt. Spamming Thunder Wave across the whole tier. Air Slash is the most spammable move with very few checks. There is no Koko or Zapdos in the Tier. Just blindly click Twave, nasty Plot up and Win the game. Question of revenge killing doesn't come as you are gonna get para flinched to death. I have seen Blissey's get flinched down.
Defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier rn. Almost every Team has one.
Though I started the trend and initially spread the plague, but when something is broken, appropriate action needs to be taken.
Togekiss lives every hit, even eats a banded Icicle Crash from Weavile and destroys it. Twave, nasty Plot sets are extremely dangerous. The worst part is, getting a Nasty Plot up is way too easy which you can't do easily using other mons.
Fell free to share opinion regarding Togekiss.
They dont seem comparable, as they work in very different ways, but yeah Togekiss doesnt have many checks, cm blissey, rotom-w, taunt heatran, and some other stuff like Tyranitar that dies to some coverage moves, i dont think is broken as of right now, is kind of slow for the offensive meta we have and vs some teams it doesnt have that many chances to set up.
Also SpDef Scizor doesnt check Gengar, it lose to both specs and wisp sets, and tran gets destroyed by fblast and can just get 2hko by shadow ball after some cheap and thats very bad for something with no recovery.
Is it just me or Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier right now. Gengar is still manageable because you can potentially live a hit and revenge kill it. There are some solid checks to Gengar like Blissey, Spdef Tran, Spdef Scizor. However Defensive Togekiss has no good checks in the Tier right now, Heatran's are not running Taunt. Spamming Thunder Wave across the whole tier. Air Slash is the most spammable move with very few checks. There is no Koko or Zapdos in the Tier. Just blindly click Twave, nasty Plot up and Win the game. Question of revenge killing doesn't come as you are gonna get para flinched to death. I have seen Blissey's get flinched down.
Defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier rn. Almost every Team has one.
Though I started the trend and initially spread the plague, but when something is broken, appropriate action needs to be taken.
Togekiss lives every hit, even eats a banded Icicle Crash from Weavile and destroys it. Twave, nasty Plot sets are extremely dangerous. The worst part is, getting a Nasty Plot up is way too easy which you can't do easily using other mons.
Fell free to share opinion regarding Togekiss.
ngl while I think Togekiss is definitely a good Pokémon, I think it's because people aren't preparing for it at all in the builder, since as for now it's still something "new" and most builds right now are too focused on other threats (again, thanks for the building chokehold that bigger threats force on us)
moreover, with rocks up it's also not that difficult to pressure a Togekiss, and... I don't get what set are you touting for, exactly
Thunder Wave Nasty Plot means you ditch Flamethrower, so a Scizor on the field (not the most complicated Pokémon to scare away, but still the #1 usage) means you can't enter without losing the 1v1, for instance; Thunder Wave Flamethrower doesn't really break much by itself but it's still annoying, sure; Scarf is genuinely trash considering the other sets Togekiss can run, and other coverage moves imo aren't that justifiable as for now
also, Stall eats Togekiss up regardless, anyway (unless you plotflinch a Blissey to death, but if it's CM you just lose and if it's not you get TWaved too and the stall user can just go to the unaware mon to heal Blissey)
It's definitely a good Pokémon, I'm not denying that at all, but imo it's far easier to stop than a lot of current threats as for now, as long as you remember Togekiss' existence to begin with?
(also how is that comparable to Gengar?)
I wanna share something I have been experienting with and its the amazing Torment Heatran a set that used to be more common in gen 4.
I have been having tons of suc6 with it and even if the set where to become more widespread tran has too many different sets it the torment set would be the last set the opponent guesses. Also with Specs Gar tearing up the tier, if tran manages to get a sub before hand he can force out choiced gar with torment or stall out its Focus misses with subs and protects. Not to mention many mons only carry 1 coverage move for tran except for mons. Also with due to how common scizor is, Flame body tran has risen up as a responds to it, meaning the torment set doesn't get walled by the funnily rarely seen Flash Fire Heatran. This allows tran to chip damage and burns all over the place as well as stall out moves from mons like rotom wash (and if choiced it struggle) as well as scout out the opponent with protect and substitute.
TLDR; Spread burns, hard to break through for as many mons carry 1 coverage most of the time and spread chip damage like crazy as well as good defensive utility in burns as well as walling stuff with torment sub.
Some mons that don't mind the torment spreading too much
- Breloom commonly carries 2 stabs in mach + force palm/punch (but tran can be eved too outspeed and take a hit from unboosted mach punch), CB adamant mach doesn't kill tran from full
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 308-366 (79.7 - 94.8%)
- Azumaril: Belly drum set doesn't mind the torment too much although fears of getting burned by plume and flame body
- Mons that don't need coverage to break: Ttar, infernape to name 2 mons that like to get in on tran, but 1 doesnt like burns and the other doesn't like the earthpower if sets not revealed and if taking too much chip damage.
Is it just me or Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier right now. Gengar is still manageable because you can potentially live a hit and revenge kill it. There are some solid checks to Gengar like Blissey, Spdef Tran, Spdef Scizor. However Defensive Togekiss has no good checks in the Tier right now, Heatran's are not running Taunt. Spamming Thunder Wave across the whole tier. Air Slash is the most spammable move with very few checks. There is no Koko or Zapdos in the Tier. Just blindly click Twave, nasty Plot up and Win the game. Question of revenge killing doesn't come as you are gonna get para flinched to death. I have seen Blissey's get flinched down.
Defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss is way to broken in the Tier rn. Almost every Team has one.
Though I started the trend and initially spread the plague, but when something is broken, appropriate action needs to be taken.
Togekiss lives every hit, even eats a banded Icicle Crash from Weavile and destroys it. Twave, nasty Plot sets are extremely dangerous. The worst part is, getting a Nasty Plot up is way too easy which you can't do easily using other mons.
Fell free to share opinion regarding Togekiss.
I like to run a more SpDef invested Rotom-W for ease of switching into Starmie and it can sit on Togekiss (except your solar beam set) and not fear T wave.
Something else I have been exploring is Choice scarf moldbreaker Rampardos.
Rampardos @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Crunch Levitate pokemon in the meta: Scarf Rampardos hits 354 speed allowing it to outspeed key base 110 speed mons such as the twins
&
who are mostly unscarfed,
and unscarfed
which are all very strong in the current meta. Mold breaker allows you to hit EQs on the potentially very annoying rotom-wash which can wall lots of teams due to its bulk and versatility in its scarf or leftover sets.252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 248-292 (81.5 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Given that Rotom-wash tends to be commonly used as a pivot and get chipped in the process. OHKO it can be very handy. Often paired with Heatran
, it allows you to click EQ without much care in the world.
Rampardos is also a good revenge killer vs the lati twins as they usually lack a scarf and get 2HKO by EQ and can easily be revenged with a crunch 252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 157-185 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 252-298 (83.7 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%)
Also EQ oneshots gengar but no one knew that ofc
Stone Edge over Head Smash
As you run it with Choice Scarf, the primary focuses of my test was as a revenge killer and not a wall breaker. You do lose out on rampardos's strong stab Headsmash, but rampardos remains a very fragile mon with a very weak defensive typing especially with recoil damage. For example in a pinch Rampardos can take an unboosted/univested BP from Scizor
and hit it hard with STAB Stone Edge. but STAB stone edge coming off a 165 atk of a mon with 354 respectable speed is no joke and has almost no switch-ins aside from ground types such a Gliscor
(needs to roost or risk crit), Donphan
(lack recovery,breaks sturdy for team) and Garchomp
(lack recovery). Possibly the best in the current meta is skarmory
who at full physical investment and hp only takes about 35%, which is mostly seen on stall. But once Skarm is gone stall has to respect the 165 Atk once more.
So far I think Rampardos has what it takes to have place in the current OU meta TLDR; reaches above 110 speed tier with scarf and with moldbreaker eq + STAB stone edge hits the whole meta making it a good revenge killer in offensive while also retaining offensive pressure who's hard to switchin to.
PS. also havent tried it but head smash still remains viable if u want more fire power which makes both gliscor and skarmory sweat. These 2 mons are the only one i can come up with to run swap out Stone MISS Edge for Head Smash 252 Atk Rampardos Head Smash vs. 244 HP / 252 Def Gliscor: 198-234 (56.2 - 66.4%)
252 Atk Rampardos Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 252 Def Gliscor: 133-157 (37.7 - 44.6%)
252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%)
252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 111-132 (33.2 - 39.5%)
The ban was definitely a triumph and a big step in the right direction for metagame balance. However, I hope Alakazam in the forefront and Latios are looked at in the near future (tired of running Scizor on every team only to lose to Zone).
Winners:
Breloom
This mon was already crazy and Gengar was one of the biggest boons to it. I have a feeling it's gonna get even better in the future if Zam and Latios get banned. Technician is still the way to go with this mon, Poison Heal is bad and I doubt anyone can convince me otherwise unless they win a tour with it. Pro tip: try Fist Plate on SD Loom. Does this:
+2 252+ Atk Fist Plate Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
Means you can beat Tang 1v1 after a SD unless they get lucky with a Sludge Bomb poison or a crit. You need spikes to do it which aren't the easiest thing to fit on a team but if you can do that Fist Plate is definitely worth it since it can keep Loom alive. I don't think the power drop of Life Orb is too costly since Fist Plate boosts Mach Punch and Bullet Seed hits like a truck anyway.
Mismagius
90% sure this mon is good now. No other ghost types competing with this, plus it's actually got the tools to be a good ghost type. Great movepool, good stats, decent ability. Can probably run a wide range of sets like SubNP, WispHex and even Perish Trap. Definitely gonna give this one a try.
Literally Any Mon
Losers:
I mean.. spdef cm bliss aka the fake Gengar counter I guess?
SIKE nothing unironically benefited from Gengar's presence in the tier.
PS. If Zam gets banned do I have to change my avatar?
Lucario's best offensive check is now gone. Mismagius is the only relevant resistance/immunity to Extreme Speed that outspeeds Lucario and there's one less reason for Lucario to spam Close Combat. However, Slowbro may rise in Gengar's absence.
One less fighting immunity is always welcome. Close Combat and Mach Punch are now much more spammable.
Losers:
Alakazam's viability is only slightly altered. It now has less competition as a fast special attacker but one of Alakazam's selling points was reliably revenge killing Gengar. I consider this a very small net negative but Alakazam is still busted. Easily one of the best mons in the tier.
Same comments as Alakazam, except spinning is more free now and Starmie isn't busted.
Another prominent revenge killer loses prey. Weavile is still excellent.
Blissey didn't reliably beat Gengar but it was still a good check, so Blissey has one less niche than before.
Lucario's best offensive check is now gone. Mismagius is the only relevant resistance/immunity to Extreme Speed that outspeeds Lucario and there's one less reason for Lucario to spam Close Combat. However, Slowbro may rise in Gengar's absence.
One less fighting immunity is always welcome. Close Combat and Mach Punch are now much more spammable.
Losers:
Alakazam's viability is only slightly altered. It now has less competition as a fast special attacker but one of Alakazam's selling points was reliably revenge killing Gengar. I consider this a very small net negative but Alakazam is still busted. Easily one of the best mons in the tier.
Same comments as Alakazam, except spinning is more free now and Starmie isn't busted.
Another prominent revenge killer loses prey. Weavile is still excellent.
Blissey didn't reliably beat Gengar but it was still a good check, so Blissey has one less niche than before.
On the flip side, blissey now has one less overwhelming special attacker to worry about, which lets it deal with everything else it needs to check much better
On the flip side, blissey now has one less overwhelming special attacker to worry about, which lets it deal with everything else it needs to check much better
Also, Blissey is no longer forced into running Shadow Ball. This means it can actually run the moves it wants to and actually makes it more effective against a wider variety of threats.
and 
(the former by usage, the latter by quickban; ironically both have 35%ish usage in UU, rip); not sure why Donphan managed to stay in OU with such a large margin (
| 49.08008% | 655147 | 36.201% | 546117 | 37.593% |
| 35.23684% | 580831 | 32.095% | 478187 | 32.917% |
| 28.63006% | 423971 | 23.427% | 325993 | 22.440% |
| 25.22618% | 413048 | 22.824% | 312975 | 21.544% |
| 23.66833% | 360789 | 19.936% | 269309 | 18.538% |
| 11.98946% | 165605 | 9.151% | 133788 | 9.210% |
| 10.56485% | 182222 | 10.069% | 130949 | 9.014% |
| 7.51876% | 155187 | 8.575% | 122933 | 8.462% |
| 7.28140% | 140640 | 7.771% | 109206 | 7.517% |
, god bless your soul in UU; probably what happened is that people realized such a volatile Steel-type like Empoleon is hard to justify without any recovery and with Heatran covering the role of a rocker better, while its Defog services aren't required in a tier with Scizor, Gliscor, Starmie and the like; that, and his niche in covering Manaphy wasn't that valuable led inevitably to its demise 
| 28.62144% | 265588 | 22.221% | 240998 | 24.992% |
| 22.86127% | 199659 | 16.705% | 157272 | 16.309% |
| 22.05257% | 200325 | 16.760% | 168069 | 17.429% | 
| 20.44703% | 235079 | 19.668% | 187624 | 19.457% |
| 16.29492% | 150320 | 12.577% | 121398 | 12.589% |
| 14.07596% | 129732 | 10.854% | 96239 | 9.980% | 
| 13.14105% | 121223 | 10.142% | 96507 | 10.008% | 
| 11.18990% | 156551 | 13.098% | 118061 | 12.243% | 
