Gen 3 Baton Pass Suspect Finale?

[Mushi Musha]

Hey everyone! I've been laddering a lot recently, at the time I'm writing this article, two of my accounts are standing at 3rd and 4th on ADV OU ladder respectively. After playing a lot after the new BP Chains rules, I still believe that Mr. Mime BP Chains are still a problem.

(For the ones that does not want to read the whole article, I recommend to read Conclusion that summaries the whole thing)

Introduction
For more than 10 years, the ADV community has been asking questions about the bans of strategies considered unhealthy, such as Trap Pass, Sand Veil teams or BP Chains. Today, almost 20 years after the third generation games were released, we are on the verge of having a completely healthy metagame. All that's left to ban, in my opinion, is the combination of Soundproof and Baton Pass on the same Pokémon.

What are Baton Pass Chains in 2022?
In 2022, after many new rules, Baton Pass Chains consist of boosting his stats, often with Ninjask, then blocking Roar by Baton Passing to Mr. Mime through his Soundproof ability, Mr. Mime can win turns with Hypnosis, Taunt and Encore, then BP on a sweeper like Marowak or Hariyama which set-up, then sweep. On top of all that, the BP Chains currently add Sand Attack to the recipe for the opponent to potentially miss. In short, the strategy is not based on good plays and good trades but relly almost entirely on luck and match-up fish. This is why I and many other players find this strategy unhealthy.

Replay examples of me playing vs myself to try to show what's a game against a BP Chain, by using multiple teams and different ways of playing:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1536579743-suxo1lne67snebwk90kzezppfq00gdspw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1536581886-aqzyrskcfp5k9aekhie0td6wml6kypfpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1536584499-si8rfzw3xq3dg8cd5c8733ni48u64s4pw (YoloSkarm)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1536585825-srlvvpn5dv6r302z8e1tn58p4gyw6zypw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1536587375-5t592ff11kuhsjcj3kjtzkb8wyzbjwkpw

Issues
1- Discourage New Players
2- Attract Troll Players
3- Non-Fun and Unfair Strategy

1- Discourage New Players
Many players wanting to start in ADV OU start on the ladder. At low level, a lot of people get beaten by the BP Chains, because they don't know how to counter them. It gives a very bad impression of the metagame for new players. Some will get discouraged and simply forget the idea of playing ADV while others will start playing this strategy themselves. This is bad news especially for a metagame that is starting to get older. Welcoming new players seems important to me so that ADV continues to have interest for the years to come.


2- Attract Troll Players

As these techniques of BP Chains are allowed, the ADV OU ladder attracts players who only want to Troll, which is extremely annoying for anyone who will face them. It's extremely annoying for high ladder players to lose to a low level lucky player who brings a technique that relies as much on luck as it does for new players who don't know how to counter this strategy.

3- Unfun and Uncompetitive Strategy
Outside the ladder, so in tournaments, the BP Chains remain functional and can cheese competitive matches. On the other hand, at high level, almost nobody uses these BP Chains. If they are not used, it is not because the strategy is bad, but because it is considered non-fun and uncompetitive because it is mainly based on luck. All this means that players will modify their team depending on whether they play on the ladder or in a tournament. For example, some players will play Rock Slide on Hariyama in their team, but when they ladder with it, they will use Whirlwind instead to try and counter the Mr. Mime BP Chains. In short, this technique isn't fun and every serious player hate to see this strategy.

So what is the solution?
I'm one of those who think Ninjask has the potential to go healthy as a revenge killer who could follow up with a Speed Pass (which wouldn't start a chain). Mr. Mime might even become a niche unphazeable Calm Minder (not being able to Baton Pass). To do this, it would be necessary to complex-ban Soundproof + Baton Pass on the same Pokémon while keeping the other current rules. This way, it would the end for Mr. Mime Baton Pass Chains without negatively affecting the meta.

Summary and Conclusion

In short, we face several problems on the ladder and count on the good faith of the players not to use this uncompetitive technique in tournaments. Banning Baton Pass and Soundproof on the same Pokemon would make the metagame healthier, without negatively affecting the meta.

Thank you all for reading!

Mushi

 

[Shamankingaursu]

Banning Baton Pass+Sound Proof seems logical to me. The issue is we don't want immoveable chains. I run into this a few times myself on the ladder (Don't get any replays sadly), it is not something that was very fun to deal with. It is pretty hard to stop that first pass (the protect into the baton pass to Mr.Mine) what is more frustrating on those teams though is Sand Attack into those combos. Because they can just sand attack when they finally pass out of Mr.Mine. Of course, that part is only useful because they can get baton pass recipients easier. So overall I think this is a fair pitch no mons have to get banned and baton pass can still be used in healthy and fun ways while removing unfun ways it can be used.

 

[Jimothy Cool]

I hate to admit it but I was testing BP myself. I kept losing to the 1 dude spamming it and wanted to see if it was just Cheese or if it was actually still strong

https://pokepast.es/035cdd510622ad5d

here's what I was using. The plan is just to get 2 Speed boosts and pass to either Mime or Hypno, Try to get a Sub up and a screen if necessary, deny Roar and get a Belly Drummer in with a free turn to sweep

A lead that can break a Ninjask sub and also threaten Mr Mime / Hypno destroys it, but you pretty much have to guess what set Mime has in that situation. He could easily have Hypnosis which you would just lose to if it doesn't miss.

It's an annoying strategy to play against cause of all the guesswork and even if you make good plays there's a solid chance you get cheesed by Sand attack or Twave and Sub spam anyway.

This strategy is a really toxic form of Matchup fishing and when I was using this it felt like I was playing a Single player game, not interacting with my opponent much at all just trying to find a path to get a Belly Drum off.

I'm down with the proposed Soundproof + BP ban but I'd also say that nothing of value would be lost if we just banned Mime altogether, I mean he only exists to enable Gimmicky stuff. I'd also say there's no good reason not to ban Sand Attack.

Here are some replays, and sorry if I queued against you and cheesed your points away lol. Me and a friend were using this account earlier in the month testing the team. I had to stop after the guilt kicked in

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1522404787-ih3e599g6fkbp7a2hmtfsgr2y9uq3rzpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1522513023-u3js0fe428559wou8ebru2phl8jptgppw

 

[Zacpz]

I am against the idea of a "final" baton pass suspect, only because I think we always need to leave the door open to suspect testing in order to allow for adjusting the tier as the need arises...

That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with the points mushi makes (bet you never thought you'd hear me say that mush).

Mr Mime in its current guise is frustrating, discourages people to play the tier, and forces a specific move onto the majority of teams to combat it.

I've long made the point that the health of the tier is more than just the health of the tour meta. The majority of the player base are ladderers, and play casually the majority of the time. Bans in ADV are almost exclusively reactive, only happening after unhealthy strats make it into high level tour play (a genuine thanks to hclat for the first mime ban). This is not good for the general engagement and happiness of the playerbase, without which ADV wouldn't be as great as it is.

I will admit that I was unhappy with the last proactive ban (trap pass) but my frustrations were derived more from the sample size of the survey (26 iirc), and the fact that perception was that it was not the unhealthiest presence in the tier.

I encourage the Council to read the room and act actively on the case mushi detailed above. Although the solution is clearly BP and soundproof rather than just Mr Mime, I feel that having to run static on electrode is a small price to pay for the general health of the meta.

For what is worth, although speed pass is a part of the problem, there are fun, healthy teams which can function with it (shout out to vapicuno). Soundproof BP strats are much smaller collateral for the health of the tier.

TLDR: Ban Mime

 

[RoiDadadou]

Yo F Mushi.

 

[Smurf.]

Its an absolute indictment on the council that BP is still an issue - just ban more than one baton pass user per team (to preserve single boost passing / dry passing. like how hard can it be really?

Alternatively, just complex ban ninjask + mr mime / hypno (to preserve celebi + zapper bp teams)

 

[Mushi Musha]

Its an absolute indictment on the council that BP is still an issue - just ban more than one baton pass user per team (to preserve single boost passing / dry passing. like how hard can it be really?

Alternatively, just complex ban ninjask + mr mime / hypno (to preserve celebi + zapper bp teams)

Even without Ninjask, Mr. Mime would remain a problem just by the fact he can block phazing Then, pass stats boost. Just banning Soundproof + Baton Pass would also solve the issue while also preserving regular BP Pass Teams nor anything else in the metagame. Honestly, I think we are all agreeing that we want Mr. Mime to stop his annoying chains so hopefully something will happen!

 

[Hipmonlee]

I kinda feel like I am wading into things I have no business wading into here, but I also kinda feel like there is a lot that this topic is completely overlooking...

Basically, it seems to me that the issue with these teams seems to be that they rely entirely on skarm to deal with +2/+2 marowak, and skarm is mag-able (or sometimes they just let it get slept, which seems like a bit of a blunder, given youve already seen jask).

Wouldnt each of these teams struggle just as badly when dealing with an Agility Roar Zapdos passing to Marowak? (Which also saves a whole extra pokemon). Even if it results in some 50/50 calls, that is just the problem right? People fishing for coin tosses?

It seems to me like there is no way to reasonably expect that a team can unconditionally prevent +2 speed being passed to a Marowak with a free turn, unless you ban speed pass outright. The only alternative is for people to just build teams that dont lose on the spot to a +2 Marowak with a free turn.

Banning Mr. Mime is simply not going to cut it.

 

[cherryb0ng]

I feel like the discussion could go more in depth about how each BP is/is not detrimental to the metagame and not just think about complex bans as this would simply lead to more ban discussions in the future. See this thread to get an idea.

 

[Mushi Musha]

I kinda feel like I am wading into things I have no business wading into here, but I also kinda feel like there is a lot that this topic is completely overlooking...

Basically, it seems to me that the issue with these teams seems to be that they rely entirely on skarm to deal with +2/+2 marowak, and skarm is mag-able (or sometimes they just let it get slept, which seems like a bit of a blunder, given youve already seen jask).

Wouldnt each of these teams struggle just as badly when dealing with an Agility Roar Zapdos passing to Marowak? (Which also saves a whole extra pokemon). Even if it results in some 50/50 calls, that is just the problem right? People fishing for coin tosses?

It seems to me like there is no way to reasonably expect that a team can unconditionally prevent +2 speed being passed to a Marowak with a free turn, unless you ban speed pass outright. The only alternative is for people to just build teams that dont lose on the spot to a +2 Marowak with a free turn.

Banning Mr. Mime is simply not going to cut it.

Agility Zapdos needs at least one turn of set up which means an opponent can lay a big hit + theres the mind game betsween the phazer and the roar zap unlike ninjask that subs prot and can go mr mime no matter what. Again, the Ninjask player aint doint a trade to set up but just playing his own game while the opponent just wait its over.

 

[Mushi Musha]

I feel like the discussion could go more in depth about how each BP is/is not detrimental to the metagame and not just think about complex bans as this would simply lead to more ban discussions in the future. See this thread to get an idea.

Baton Pass is fundamental, without BP Mr. Mime, there is no problem with it at all, it can pass speed or dry pass to scout a bit like U-Turn in later gens. Unlike Mean Look / Spider Web + BP in gen 2 like you talk about in your post, we cannot just ban BP because on any teams other than Mr. Mime BP Chains, it is not unhealthy, and again, even if it is a complex ban, it would be the best thing to do for the metagame to make it healthy once and for all.

 

[LBN]

I'm just saying this as someone less invested but how many bloody complex bans do we have to make to just ban the move entirely, i dont care if its the only pivot move this move been getting discusse like every 6 months. If you have to take a look at something complexly more than like 3 times it shows the move itself is the problem

 

[Mushi Musha]

I'm just saying this as someone less invested but how many bloody complex bans do we have to make to just ban the move entirely, i dont care if its the only pivot move this move been getting discusse like every 6 months. If you have to take a look at something complexly more than like 3 times it shows the move itself is the problem

I can understand that for someone that isnt that involved, you can think Baton Pass is an issue, however, the only issue right now is annoying unphazable Mr. Mime Chains. By banning Soundproof + Baton Pass, we slove this issue completly without affecting the meta. Banning Baton Pass would drasticly change the metagame forever and we just can't do that. It's been more than a decade that it is used in healthy ways and we can't afford to remove it. It's like if you banned U-Turn in later gens. So, in summary, if we ban Soundproof + BP, we will probabably never ever face any problem about Baton Pass.

 

[Astamatitos]

I've been using this for a while and I thought i'd share since this thread is receiving attention.
https://pokepast.es/20009c327faa8ed8

Current ideas on using bp:

So modern bp following the restrictions is all about using the most explosive one-turn setup sweepers in the game as you don't have the luxury of taking hits with vaporeon's defense boosts anymore. At most, you have a one turn window which you'll have acquired by positional maneuvering.

Who are the main guys for this?

The Speed booster:
Ninjask: +3 speed passing is the new +2. Maro likes to be ada for that pert ohko after all. Yama likes to have bulk to setup on bliss and the likes. I like having one of my sweepers at +2 sweeping speed for more flexibility so for that matter i keep poliwrath as 200 speed. Wrath is more of a mon you send out of desperation if things arent going according to plan in order to land a hypnosis.

I opt for near max atk and silverpowder as dissuading cele from seeding and ttar from dding or subbing is big. Not necessary to make this spdef anymore to tank pert as you no are no longer SD passing.

Sidenote: Silverpowder has 10% odds of bypassing the current galaxy brain ruleset which is also cool.

Sweepers:

The Maro
1) Marowak: As always the trusted companion to bp teams. I prefer adamant maro for its ability to ohko defensive pert and imprish flygon at +2, keep in mind that needs a +3 speed pass for it to outspeed everything.

Can do focus punch over dedge for that ohko on skarm at +2 if you want to forego magneton.

The Drummers

2) Poliwrath: The biggest issue bp teams face in conventional offense slugfests is the presence of multiple exploders, whether thats metagross, snorlax, regirock and the camel even. Poliwrath is more or less necessary if consistent results are needed since damp and hypnosis allows you to setup on gross and belly drum away. It lacks the punch that yama and maro have (skarm and pert both tank your hits) making it more of an enabler poke for the other guys. You can do max atk and submission to ohko them on a roll but that just is counter productive and you'd most likely rather rely on hypnosis for that instead.
3) Hariyama: has enough atk to ohko skarm and pert with its stab move and has thick fat to give it a niche in setting up on certain mons. It also has enough hp to tank two stosses after leftovers and still get its drum off. More or less a staple. I prefer giving it 159 speed and going for a +3 speed pass so that i have the more bulk.

Notable mention:
4) Snorlax: Surprisingly gets to 159 speed with a neutral nature allowing you to go for a +3 sweep. Its a drummer that can tank special hits so it has a good niche. I'd always ev it to tank a pert eq after drum as far as phys defenses go. Drum +3 atks or drum chestorest can both work, though lack of lefties on the latter hurts.

Support Cast:
Mr. Mime: Pretty much the glue of this whole thing. Prevents roars from completely shutting this down, max spdef makes it so you can switch to zap's tbolts, encore +hypnosis allows you to mitigate any phaser that stays in and roar spams away. In general hypnosis is the best mime can do in the modern restriction era as it buys you that one-turn window we've talked about.

Magneton: Needed to allow Maro to have a smoother sweep by eliminating skarm. Hp Ice is a personal preference as it allows it to dissuade mence leads which you dont have a good switch for.

What about the zapper?

Zapdos: The zapper instead of jask makes mag less of a necessity and therefore allows for another sweeper or cbgross to enter the fray. You will need to adjust your sweepers to outspeed everything at +2 instead of +3 sacrificing some bulk. FP on maro will be needed for skarm ohkoing if mag is not used

Husk's spread adviced (252 hp/100 def/156+ spdef) so that you can tank aero and pass away if needed.

Final thoughts

Is modern bp broken? For me personally not really. Its a bit stronger now than it was when the 3-bp + mime ban rules were in place. It is a strategy that has a lot of flaws and needs considerable things to go your way. It will still throttle offensive teams that rely mostly on setups. I'd say its slightly favored vs conventional big5+1 teams as maro's ability to outright KO Pert makes it hard to maneuver around.

So has the community achieved what it was striving to do pre-SPL? I don't think so. My personal preferences aside, I think it only makes sense to reinstate the ban on mr. mime before beginning to examine a next course of action.

Guide Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1541617200-em5acrhtvxrdnfguggrgq4j0a7qxjf7pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1540050582-vx2nqa3f0cvrzpvnnmt43tpqqkjirvkpw
Silver boost outright winning

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1541610342-8167d6v997yjreb7tgwd1713j7lnz2ipw

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

So with Soundproof as a whole getting banned, is there a possibility of the Passer minimum going up in the future? I think 1/2 the team(3) might be a bit much out of safety but a 1/3rd(2) possibility could be more tame, especially with the 3 biggest offenders(passive trapping, speed boosting and phaze negation) out of the picture now.

Also as an aside I'm glad a solution has been reached, because maybe it's my old casual brain talking but I'd prefer avoiding a future when BP becomes the next OHKO/Evasion/Moody Clause.

 

[Mushi Musha]

I've been using this for a while and I thought i'd share since this thread is receiving attention.
https://pokepast.es/20009c327faa8ed8

Current ideas on using bp:

So modern bp following the restrictions is all about using the most explosive one-turn setup sweepers in the game as you don't have the luxury of taking hits with vaporeon's defense boosts anymore. At most, you have a one turn window which you'll have acquired by positional maneuvering.

Who are the main guys for this?

The Speed booster:
Ninjask: +3 speed passing is the new +2. Maro likes to be ada for that pert ohko after all. Yama likes to have bulk to setup on bliss and the likes. I like having one of my sweepers at +2 sweeping speed for more flexibility so for that matter i keep poliwrath as 200 speed. Wrath is more of a mon you send out of desperation if things arent going according to plan in order to land a hypnosis.

I opt for near max atk and silverpowder as dissuading cele from seeding and ttar from dding or subbing is big. Not necessary to make this spdef anymore to tank pert as you no are no longer SD passing.

Sidenote: Silverpowder has 10% odds of bypassing the current galaxy brain ruleset which is also cool.

Sweepers:

The Maro
1) Marowak: As always the trusted companion to bp teams. I prefer adamant maro for its ability to ohko defensive pert and imprish flygon at +2, keep in mind that needs a +3 speed pass for it to outspeed everything.

Can do focus punch over dedge for that ohko on skarm at +2 if you want to forego magneton.

The Drummers

2) Poliwrath: The biggest issue bp teams face in conventional offense slugfests is the presence of multiple exploders, whether thats metagross, snorlax, regirock and the camel even. Poliwrath is more or less necessary if consistent results are needed since damp and hypnosis allows you to setup on gross and belly drum away. It lacks the punch that yama and maro have (skarm and pert both tank your hits) making it more of an enabler poke for the other guys. You can do max atk and submission to ohko them on a roll but that just is counter productive and you'd most likely rather rely on hypnosis for that instead.
3) Hariyama: has enough atk to ohko skarm and pert with its stab move and has thick fat to give it a niche in setting up on certain mons. It also has enough hp to tank two stosses after leftovers and still get its drum off. More or less a staple. I prefer giving it 159 speed and going for a +3 speed pass so that i have the more bulk.

Notable mention:
4) Snorlax: Surprisingly gets to 159 speed with a neutral nature allowing you to go for a +3 sweep. Its a drummer that can tank special hits so it has a good niche. I'd always ev it to tank a pert eq after drum as far as phys defenses go. Drum +3 atks or drum chestorest can both work, though lack of lefties on the latter hurts.

Support Cast:
Mr. Mime: Pretty much the glue of this whole thing. Prevents roars from completely shutting this down, max spdef makes it so you can switch to zap's tbolts, encore +hypnosis allows you to mitigate any phaser that stays in and roar spams away. In general hypnosis is the best mime can do in the modern restriction era as it buys you that one-turn window we've talked about.

Magneton: Needed to allow Maro to have a smoother sweep by eliminating skarm. Hp Ice is a personal preference as it allows it to dissuade mence leads which you dont have a good switch for.

What about the zapper?

Zapdos: The zapper instead of jask makes mag less of a necessity and therefore allows for another sweeper or cbgross to enter the fray. You will need to adjust your sweepers to outspeed everything at +2 instead of +3 sacrificing some bulk. FP on maro will be needed for skarm ohkoing if mag is not used

Husk's spread adviced (252 hp/100 def/156+ spdef) so that you can tank aero and pass away if needed.

Final thoughts

Is modern bp broken? For me personally not really. Its a bit stronger now than it was when the 3-bp + mime ban rules were in place. It is a strategy that has a lot of flaws and needs considerable things to go your way. It will still throttle offensive teams that rely mostly on setups. I'd say its slightly favored vs conventional big5+1 teams as maro's ability to outright KO Pert makes it hard to maneuver around.

So has the community achieved what it was striving to do pre-SPL? I don't think so. My personal preferences aside, I think it only makes sense to reinstate the ban on mr. mime before beginning to examine a next course of action.

Guide Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1541617200-em5acrhtvxrdnfguggrgq4j0a7qxjf7pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1540050582-vx2nqa3f0cvrzpvnnmt43tpqqkjirvkpw
Silver boost outright winning

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1541610342-8167d6v997yjreb7tgwd1713j7lnz2ipw

Really good and interesting post
It really shows what Mr.Mime chains looks like right now, the only issue is that if we ban Mr. Mime in OU, would he be Ubers or even AG? Cuz Mr. Mime is probably not less Broken in lower tiers. Well, we are all agreeing that Mr. Mime should get removed / nerfed from OU.

 

[Mushi Musha]

So with Soundproof as a whole getting banned, is there a possibility of the Passer minimum going up in the future? I think 1/2 the team(3) might be a bit much out of safety but a 1/3rd(2) possibility could be more tame, especially with the 3 biggest offenders(passive trapping, speed boosting and phaze negation) out of the picture now.

Also as an aside I'm glad a solution has been reached, because maybe it's my old casual brain talking but I'd prefer avoiding a future when BP becomes the next OHKO/Evasion/Moody Clause.

In fact, removing Soundproof would deal with our current problems, however, it just completly ban Electrode and Exploud that didn't ask anything.
I think a Soundproof + Baton Pass or a Mr. Mime ban would be better

 

[Soiramio3000]

astamatitos,could you please speak with normal english?when you chop too many words and put them in the same sentence it becomes hard to read.

 

[Zacpz]

In fact, removing Soundproof would deal with our current problems, however, it just completly ban Electrode and Exploud that didn't ask anything.
I think a Soundproof + Baton Pass or a Mr. Mime ban would be better

Electrode still has static, all is not lost young man :)

 

[Astamatitos]

astamatitos,could you please speak with normal english?when you chop too many words and put them in the same sentence it becomes hard to read.

Lurk more then.

 

[Ajjc]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but why not just ban Ninjask (or speed boost which obviously is basically the same thing)? What viability/niche does it have other than starting these BP chains?

If speed boost is gone then really 99% of the cheese/troll factor is eliminated, no? With speed boost any lead ninjask can pretty much automatically get +2 speed passed with no counterplay, which is what really turns the rest of the game into a series of 50/50s.

And again, it's not like Ninjask does anything remotely viable outside of starting the chain. Is this not a pretty similar situation to Cacturne/sand veil, where an otherwise unviable mon is only used as part of a cheese strategy? And shoot if we're talking complex bans anyway, just ban speed boost + baton pass instead. If you aren't passively getting speed boosts, it means that in order to successfully use a BP chain you have to actually make plays to put yourself in that position.

Right now as it stands, if you lead Ninjask you can click substitute and then protect, and you are virtually guaranteed to have +2 speed ready to be passed with zero interaction from your opponent. When running a BP chain strategy, you *always*get to start with an advantage due to the speed boost mechanics, and the whole free +2 speed is what allows the strategy to have such annoying consistency. If you have to manually set up agility with Zapdos or something, that allows for the opponent to interfere with the strat before it can really get going.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but why not just ban Ninjask (or speed boost which obviously is basically the same thing)? What viability/niche does it have other than starting these BP chains?

I understand where you are coming from but there are other ways to baton pass speed like with zapdos and jolteon.banning shedinja completely(or at least banning it from running baton pass) just would eliminate one of the many ways to baton pass speed.

I wouldn't be surprised if people kept compaining about mr.mime on EVERY type of baton pass(swords dance,calm mind,etc).

 

[Ajjc]

I understand where you are coming from but there are other ways to baton pass speed like with zapdos and jolteon.

The difference is that you need to actually use a speed boosting move in order to be in that position. If you click EQ against a Jolteon when it goes for agility, the agility is a moot point because that Jolteon is dead. Ninjask, conversely, can click sub or protect on your rock slide *while* getting a +1 in speed. Ninjask is unique because it allows you to both freely scout for counterplay while also passively getting the boosts that are absolutely essential for the cheese to work. Also, anything else needs to dedicate a move slot to the speed boosting move AND make the right call on when exactly to click it. That additional complexity would pretty much make full-BP teams completely unviable and I think solve just about every issue that everyone seems to have with BP in its current state

 

[Soiramio3000]

The difference is that

Okay,you make a point,but if the other other speed passers are that bad then by banning sheninja the entire archetype of the speed passers would be barely functional.

A baton pass team with shedinja can still function without mr.mime just not as well.