This sounds like Slowbro is the main issue here, if U-turn is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY
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Resource Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (NU Edition)
- Thread starter Kiyo
- Start date
Slowbro is not the issue. U-turn is just that good of a move. A good Scarfer always needs some way to gain momentum for its team like Rotom with Volt Switch or Braviary and Passimian with U-turn.
It's pretty simple imo. Sawk is way more prediction reliant because it does not have to bank on fallback U-turn and it also is less naturally bulky. The difference in base speed is only 5 points and Passimian can just U-turn whenever it is in doubt, so it is much better. Passimian is pretty much all of the good things from Primeape and Sawk combined with a trade-off of some speed for some additional bulk. U-turn and momentum is so vital in any bulky-offense/balance match-up, which is most of the metagame, so it should not be too surprising.
Yoshi
IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Generally Smogon's philosophy is usually to ban the problematic Pokemon rather than the ability. The thing with Sand Stream is, it is only broken on one Pokemon. While Hippopotas is obviously not viable, Sand Stream isn't broken on it, and it is open for anyone to use if they so choose to do so. Now you might ask then, why not ban Gigalith in combination with Sand Stream? Well, Smogon also doesn't like to use "complex bans", which is a fancy way of saying combination bans. We've only done a couple of these across all tiers, and we've regret doing most of them afterwards, so it is definitely something we try to avoid. Overall though, we could not suspect Sand Stream due to Smogon's tiering philosophy.
You're partially right. The reason Gigalith was banned over sand stream is that hippopotas was actually legal in the tier for a long time, but sand still wasn't broken. In fact, it was extremely rarely used. When gigalith dropped, sand became extremely good because gigalith is a very reliable setter. It doesn't need eviolite, is extremely bulky and still strong enough to form a threat in and of itself. While I do agree that it seems inconsistent, and I even agree with you that they shouldn't have gone this route, the reasoning is legit. TLDR; Sand wasn't broken before gigalith dropped down.
The main reason is that Sun and Rain are more broken than Sand because of their ability to boost the attacks of Fire and Water moves respectively. For Sand you need a Pokémon with Sand Force. There are also more Pokémon with Chlorophyll and Swift Swim than Pokémon with Sand Rush as well
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Sand was broken during the time gigalith was allowed - broken and spammed everywhere. Besides, sand boosts rock type's spedef, which still helped out gigalith a lot. But the reason sand didnt get banned was because sand wasn't the problem, it was gigalith with sand stream.
Stats are coming out soon-ish, but just wanted to ask what are the thoughts on unbanning certain NUBL mons, with the mon in mind being Cofagrigus.
I'm just one dude on council, but personally I would not touch Cofagrigus anytime in the near future. It was very broken back when it was in the tier and with Psychics running the tier more than ever, mainly with regards to Slowbro and Xatu, I cannot imagine it being too different now. Things like Mega Audino and Type Null are hard checks for sure, but also do not see much usage at all and are very awkward to integrate to standard structures. This means that you pretty much need Incineroar on every "standard" (aka balance/bulky-offensive) team. This is honestly already almost the case, but having a single Pokemon define this characteristic of the team seems like quite an unwelcome change to the structure to me. Even that may not be enough if it's not the pivot variant given that it is sometimes needed for other things and it is Stealth Rock weak. All things considered, Cofagrigus would not get my support to drop down anytime soon. As for the other things, I also do not see a ton of appeal, but I may see a bit more in a couple of those specifically if talked into it then I would Cofagrigus at any point in the near future.
Why has Rhydon risen and Palossand dropped in the latest VR Update? I still consider them both A-, although usage stats could change my mind
I really don't get rhydon's rise
Yes, it checks Incineroar, too bad 90% of teams run both a grass and a water type since the water tank trio is really good and there are like 7 great choices for a grass type so it can't do much besides set rocks and force an incineroar to switch out into a Water or grass type. Am i wrong? Also it has no ability
I really like palossand because due to all the fightings running around i believe every team needs a ghost type, so if i'm running Heliolisk and Whimsicott that rocker WILL be palossand
It is also the mon which fears Passimian the least, with colbur
With colbur it can hold it's own against incineroar passably
Sorry if the question isn't short
TL;DR Why is Rhydon A?
I really don't get rhydon's rise
Yes, it checks Incineroar, too bad 90% of teams run both a grass and a water type since the water tank trio is really good and there are like 7 great choices for a grass type so it can't do much besides set rocks and force an incineroar to switch out into a Water or grass type. Am i wrong? Also it has no ability
I really like palossand because due to all the fightings running around i believe every team needs a ghost type, so if i'm running Heliolisk and Whimsicott that rocker WILL be palossand
It is also the mon which fears Passimian the least, with colbur
With colbur it can hold it's own against incineroar passably
Sorry if the question isn't short
TL;DR Why is Rhydon A?
By your logic, we also shouldn’t use Passimian because Slowbro is super common. The fact of the matter is that just because something hard stops you, doesn’t mean it lacks viability. The presence of grass and grass and water types happens to be annoying for opposing Rhydon, for sure, but they do not hurt it’s viability much seeing as Rhydon is used to set up SR, which it does as reliably as anything, and check things like Incineroar, as you mention. Palossand fulfills a different niche for a Stealth Rock setter, which involves checking Fighting types like Passimian, Medicham, and Hariyama while also reliably setting up Stealth Rock. Given this and the pokemon’s other individual specific traits, the VR Council determines that Rhydon has more viability than Palossand and I really do not think that’s too unfair given the prominence of some things Rhydon excels against.
Yes but my main problem with rhydon is it gets completely countered by like 7 B+ -> S mons while Palossand's only complete counters are Sneasel, Vanilluxe and Braviary
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Yoshi
IT'S FINK DUMBASS
The problem with Silvally-Steel is the excessive amount of discussion on the viability rankings. It was voted on 5 different slates, and every time it was brought it up it was the same conversation going in cycles. It's not that Silvally-Steel is bad at all, it's just a way of the VR council saying "Hey, don't talk about this mon anymore, we know it's decent but we don't think it should rise and we've made that clear a bunch of times."
In short, it's just to promote better discussion
You mean the Blacklisted list? I'm not part of the council, but my guess is probably not. Yoshizilla explained this so much better than I ever could. I'd just be repeating him at this point.
Are there any plans in the future of suspecting either Incineroar or Slowbro?
Yoshi
IT'S FINK DUMBASS
As far as the council is concerned, definitely not. Eternally has already come out and said that they have no intentions of testing Incineroar, and I'd imagine he'd say the same for Slowbro as well.
The main reason for this is that neither of these Pokemon are actually broken. In fact, there aren't actually any broken Pokemon right now (except Vanilluxe but that's a different conversation). A lot of people have been calling for these suspect tests because the tier isn't very diverse right now. If there is any diversity, it's all slow and bulky Pokemon which aren't necessarily fun. Passimian, Incineroar, and Slowbro are on every other team, and it can just be annoying sometimes. However, this does not equate to any of them being broken. Therefore, they're not being tested in the near future.
Alright fair. What's the thing about Vanilluxe?
Yoshi
IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Well not everyone shares the same opinion as me I suppose, but I think there's actually no drawback in banning Vanilluxe (or rather the tier only gets healthier if we do). First and foremost, the thing has no counter. The ones that do exist get worn down super easily, like Incineroar by Stealth Rock + Hail, Silvally-Steel by Hail and Blizzard Damage, and Hariyama, which doesn't even run Assault Vest (or Thick Fat in some cases), gets eaten alive by Blizzard. In terms of arguments for keeping it, there really isn't one, as Vanilluxe offers no defensive utility. But idk what plans the council has for that, so we'll see in the future (a couple of other people like Lax share this with me as well).
edit: 666 messages, this is clearly a message from God to ban Vanilluxe. Also 200th message in this thread :thinking:
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Minior really struggles to do its thing in NU. We can't unrank it cause it's NU by usage so that's why it's D. Omastar is a far better Shell Smasher with a better typing, ability and can afford a Z-move. Absol, albeit frail and a tad slow, can really dismantle balance and offensive teams due to its absurdly strong Sucker Punch and coverage moves to hit stuff like Steelix and Rhydon.
