Serious American Politics

His control is weak. Trump endorsed republicans got annihilated
idk how you can reach that conclusion even with Murdoch turned, he has an entire ecosystem of media outside of Fox to pick up the slack. Donald Trump is going to be the Republican nominee in 2024 and will incite his followers to violence again when he loses, because the Republican Party is nothing more than a personality cult dedicated to overthrowing the Constitution.

Even if they lose for another 4 years, they won't change. They'll simply wait until they are back in a position to coup the government, because that's always how authoritarians work.
 
idk how you can reach that conclusion even with Murdoch turned, he has an entire ecosystem of media outside of Fox to pick up the slack. Donald Trump is going to be the Republican nominee in 2024 and will incite his followers to violence again when he loses, because the Republican Party is nothing more than a personality cult dedicated to overthrowing the Constitution.

Even if they lose for another 4 years, they won't change. They'll simply wait until they are back in a position to coup the government, because that's always how authoritarians work.
The conclusion is from the election itself. People are starting to see their errors.

do the craziest of the crazys still exist? Yes, of course. But their numbers shrink by the day
 
The conclusion is from the election itself. People are starting to see their errors.

do the craziest of the crazys still exist? Yes, of course. But their numbers shrink by the day
This is like the epitome of wishful thinking, bordering on delusion. Some of the more "traditional" conservatives who fell in line behind Trump despite not liking his demeanor are now moving over to a slightly more well-spoken (as high of a bar as that is) fascist in DeSantes. If you think for even a moment that Trump won't smear the absolute shit out of DeSantes when it comes time for the primaries, and if you think for a moment that Trump doesn't still have legions of followers who will take those smears and run all over town with them, then I really don't know what to tell you.

This split cannot possibly make the Republican party stronger. Their game plan was never to rely on electoralism; only liberals are that delusional. Their game plan was always to overthrow democracy through extra-electoral means. Ours shouldn't rely on electoralism either (this isn't to say that voting is bad or any of that shit, but we need to start forming working class solidarity via strengthening unions, and forming community aid groups, and we need to do it yesterday).
 
This is like the epitome of wishful thinking, bordering on delusion. Some of the more "traditional" conservatives who fell in line behind Trump despite not liking his demeanor are now moving over to a slightly more well-spoken (as high of a bar as that is) fascist in DeSantes. If you think for even a moment that Trump won't smear the absolute shit out of DeSantes when it comes time for the primaries, and if you think for a moment that Trump doesn't still have legions of followers who will take those smears and run all over town with them, then I really don't know what to tell you.

This split cannot possibly make the Republican party stronger. Their game plan was never to rely on electoralism; only liberals are that delusional. Their game plan was always to overthrow democracy through extra-electoral means. Ours shouldn't rely on electoralism either (this isn't to say that voting is bad or any of that shit, but we need to start forming working class solidarity via strengthening unions, and forming community aid groups, and we need to do it yesterday).
I think part of where this thinking comes from is the historical norms of American politics. Parties are expected to ditch losing candidates, with the only example against that being Grover Cleveland. The Republicans won't replicate Cleveland though, they'll seek to attain power through gerrymandering, partisan jurisprudence, and violence. The US hasn't had a cult of personality that is directly hostile to constitutional democracy, so rather than comparing Trump to other presidents, he should be compared to other dictators and their supporters. Mussolini, Peron, and even Stalin would all be better comparisons.
 
If you think for even a moment that Trump won't smear the absolute shit out of DeSantes when it comes time for the primaries, and if you think for a moment that Trump doesn't still have legions of followers who will take those smears and run all over town with them, then I really don't know what to tell you.
Of course he will. What I'm saying is that it won't be relevant numerically.

Desantis is a ridiculously strong candidate (in terms of chance of winning presidency) and Democrats are going to need someone very strong if we plan on winning 2024
 
Here's how it works.

Trump will clap DeSantis's cheeks in the primaries. Trumper has a ~90% approval rating among Republicans. Trump has a low approval rating for democrats and independents. Luckily their opinion is meaningless in primaries.

Desantis would be a good match for Biden and a real threat in 2024. He's less of a red flag for independents yet still has similar policies to Trump. Unfortunately for DeSantis, Trump clapped his cheeks and thus he won't run.

Biden will crush Trump because independents won't vote for Trump. Who gives a fuck who Republicans vote for when 30% of the country is on the fence, and that fence is far from Trump.

Republicans are fucked and the 2022 election red trickle is just the start of their party destroying itself. It would take a moderate to win, but until Trump dies or public opinion shifts drastically the Republicans are unlikely to find a moderate who can push through Trump. I unironically love Trump now, he's the Democrat's biggest ally.

Oh and public opinion WILL shift. Boomers are dying and millennial + gen Z are finally starting to vote. Oh boy gen z is so left leaning that they make millennials look like boomers. And the Zs are hitting 18, millions more every year. And voting gets these kids so fucking hard. They're going to flip the Republican party on its ass so much that 10 years from now you might see a Republican running on a platform of higher minimum wage or free college or something, because the party is dead if they don't. Maybe we'll see a hilarious future where Elon Musk runs as a Republican on a platform of supporting green energy, public transportation, and space travel running against AOC or someone running on Bernie's platform. Can't wait to see Republicans try to explain why electric cars are actually good.

Tldr in the short term Trump will fuck the Republicans, in the longer term gen Z is going to fuck them even harder. Am I drunk off Thanksgiving beer? Hell yeah brother. But I'm also drunk on progress. Drunk on freedom. Definitely drunk on Natty Daddys.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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Chou Toshio

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Here's how it works.

Trump will clap DeSantis's cheeks in the primaries. Trumper has a ~90% approval rating among Republicans. Trump has a low approval rating for democrats and independents. Luckily their opinion is meaningless in primaries.

Desantis would be a good match for Biden and a real threat in 2024. He's less of a red flag for independents yet still has similar policies to Trump. Unfortunately for DeSantis, Trump clapped his cheeks and thus he won't run.

Biden will crush Trump because independents won't vote for Trump. Who gives a fuck who Republicans vote for when 30% of the country is on the fence, and that fence is far from Trump.

Republicans are fucked and the 2022 election red trickle is just the start of their party destroying itself. It would take a moderate to win, but until Trump dies or public opinion shifts drastically the Republicans are unlikely to find a moderate who can push through Trump. I unironically love Trump now, he's the Democrat's biggest ally.

Oh and public opinion WILL shift. Boomers are dying and millennial + gen Z are finally starting to vote. Oh boy gen z is so left leaning that they make millennials look like Republicans. And the Zs are hitting 18, millions more every year. And voting gets these kids so fucking hard. They're going to flip the Republican party on its ass so much that 10 years from now you might see a Republican running on a platform of higher minimum wage or free college or something, because the party is dead if they don't. Maybe we'll see a hilarious future where Elon Musk runs as a Republican on a platform of supporting green energy, public transportation, and space travel running against AOC or someone running on Bernie's platform. Can't wait to see Republicans try to explain why electric cars are actually good.

Tldr in the short term Trump will fuck the Republicans, in the longer term gen Z is going to fuck them even harder. Am I drunk off Thanksgiving beer? Hell yeah brother. But I'm also drunk on progress.

Happy Thanksgiving!
The most optimistic and funny side of the probable spectrum. Mostly agree— and happy thanksgiving! Eat some Turkey for me my countrymen (ovens do not exist in Tokyo lols).

Please preserve the nation so my kids can some day go and substantiate their understanding of turkeys as more than a hypothetical bigger chicken.
 
Let's go Trump 2024!!!

I think we all knew Trump was going to run again. I believe a ticket of Trump+DeSantis would be the ultimate one two punch to knock Biden into the retirement home where he belongs. Biden is literally the weakest president we have had in decades if not centuries and he is a national embarrassment. We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats that America is facing like the border crisis, crime, Opoid epidemic, China, brainwashing of the youth and potential global war.
 

Chou Toshio

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Let's go Trump 2024!!!

I think we all knew Trump was going to run again. I believe a ticket of Trump+DeSantis would be the ultimate one two punch to knock Biden into the retirement home where he belongs. Biden is literally the weakest president we have had in decades if not centuries and he is a national embarrassment. We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats that America is facing like the border crisis, crime, Opoid epidemic, China, brainwashing of the youth and potential global war.
Who are you voting for in the 2024 Republican primary?

Assume Desantis also runs, and runs against Trump. Also assume no one else in there because quite frankly none of the rest of the "field" matters.
 
Let's go Trump 2024!!!

I think we all knew Trump was going to run again. I believe a ticket of Trump+DeSantis would be the ultimate one two punch to knock Biden into the retirement home where he belongs. Biden is literally the weakest president we have had in decades if not centuries and he is a national embarrassment. We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats that America is facing like the border crisis, crime, Opoid epidemic, China, brainwashing of the youth and potential global war.
Saying Biden is a "national embarrassment" and wanting Donald Trump back is like pointing and laughing at everyone around you for not shitting their pants at the same time you did. As someone who lives outside the US and as someone who got a bit a travel in during the Trump years, allow me to assure you that Republicans turned the United States into a laughingstock whose foreign policy could be altered with a measly two-billion-dollar bribe to the Trump family. It's also fucking absurd to say " We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats" when he already had four years that saw Trump either ignore said crises or actively make them worse, ESPECIALLY just before leaving office. You can lie to yourself, but don't expect anything other than being laughed at when you lie to us.


Your takes in the Russia thread suddenly make a lot more sense.
Ukrainians after the United States announces DeTrumpification and proscribes the Republican Party:

 
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I wonder if Bernie is going to try it a third (second ?????????) time. Something something third times the charm I guess. It's a bit unfortunate how anything that's not a right wing gets immediately destroyed by both parties, even if I find a lot of Bernie centrism extremely annoying (unga bunga israel supporter moment)
 
Who are you voting for in the 2024 Republican primary?

Assume Desantis also runs, and runs against Trump. Also assume no one else in there because quite frankly none of the rest of the "field" matters.
Trump all the way! I like how Trump isn't a career politician and doesn't hold back his opinions. Trump did amazing job in the first 4 years and will do even better in the next 4 years. He was instrumental in turning over Roe vs Wade among a lot of other things.
 
Trump all the way! I like how Trump isn't a career politician and doesn't hold back his opinions. Trump did amazing job in the first 4 years and will do even better in the next 4 years. He was instrumental in turning over Roe vs Wade among a lot of other things.
For the sake of this not becoming a far left circle jerk, and assuming you aren't trolling, what specifically did Trump do that you like?
 

Adeleine

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don't think we must go out of our way to foster and encourage the "balance" of support for a far-right minority-hating, democracy-weakening, environment-trashing, mind-numbingly corrupt manchild

"internet discourse" has poisoned the idea of "circle jerks" and """far-leftism""" but, like, consensus that we don't hate minorities (and several other reasons to dislike trump) is a good thing i think and not actually far leftism
 
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don't think we must go out of our way foster and encourage the "balance" of support for a far-right minority-hating, democracy-weakening, environment-trashing, mind-numbingly corrupt manchild

"internet discourse" has poisoned the idea of "circle jerks" and """far-leftism""" but, like, consensus that we don't hate minorities (and several other reasons to dislike trump) is a good thing i think and not actually far leftism
Smogon is a Pokémon forum with a majority userbase of 15-25 year olds. It absolutely does not represent US politics as a whole and like most other internet communities has a political demographic that lines up with millennials / gen Z (specifically the left leaning ones who play video games and post on Reddit, not the guy from your high school who has a truck for a Facebook profile picture and thinks liberalism is a disease). Actual US political demographics is closer to 50/50 with the independents leaning slightly left. If you don't encourage the opposition to post in these bubbles then you end up with this thread, which is mostly just a bunch of Pokémon players agreeing as how Trump / Republicans are bad, yet no one is actually having serious discussion about WHY people would want to vote for a right leaning candidate. Obviously not every Trump voter is a racist uneducated hillbilly and if you never even try to talk with the other side then you will remain ignorant of what they vote for, then you can't pick candidates who meet closer in the middle who will actually win an election.

For example many right leaning voters oppose a 15 an hour federal minimum wage. It's easy to say they hate poor people and shut them off when they try to talk. And yes, many have the stupid generic Boomer responses "Mcdonalds isn't supposed to be a career, higher min wage = inflation" etc. But if you actually talk to a conservative who is politically invested they might be more likely to just say they think minimum wage should be controlled by the states, as a livable wage in Los Angeles is different to Fort Wayne Indiana. People living in these areas wouldn't see quality of life increase with a higher minimum wage, they would see most small business destroyed, an increase in unemployment, and an increase in rent. Even if a person disagrees with that and thinks min wage would help rural areas it's important to actually talk with these people and address their concerns. Yeah a minimum wage increase will help far more people than it will hurt, but it WILL hurt some people and many people will vote against you if their fears aren't being addressed. Republican voters have actually voted in favor of minimum wage increases at the state and local level multiple times so the answer isn't as simple as them hating the poors.

I disagree with pretty much everything Republicans say but they still have opinions and the ability to vote, and if a person isn't willing to talk with them then they aren't helping anyone. Yeah you probably won't change the views of a super right-leaning red hat wearing Trump flag flying truck nuts guy but the majority of people aren't so far invested in their party that they couldn't have their opinion swayed. It's especially important to talk with the opposition on public forums where for every one person you reply to a hundred others will read your comment, and many of these people are politically centrists or otherwise "don't involve themselves" with politics. For these passive readers your comments could help sway them to see how unreasonable the other side is or how rational your ideas are. It's important to let people see both sides and decide for themselves. Just saying mean things about the other side isn't going to convince anyone in the same way that a Republican calling the lefts "Libtards" isn't going to make you sympathetic to them. We have to actually engage.

tl;dr online political discussion probably won't change the opinion of the person you're talking with but it will definitely help onlookers realize who the crazy one is which is probably the most important thing we can do in an era of political bubbles.
 
Yeah, no, how about instead we bypass the Republican voters, unionize the shit out of every sector we can, and force things like a 15 dollar minimum wage (or higher; 15 dollars is not livable in every part of the country) through with general strikes? Unionization is the engine to social change, not electoralism; both the working class and the bourgeoisie have known this for like 150 years now. There's a reason why companies fear unions the way they do, and why they will go to the enormous lengths and expenses that they do to union bust (including historically machine-gunning down striking workers and calling in militias to force workers to work at gunpoint like something straight out of Maoist China). You can thank unions for the fact that child labor isn't really a thing anymore, the fact that we actually have (some) safety standards for workers, and the fact that we have a minimum wage at all, even if it hasn't kept up with inflation for ~60 years.

Vote, sure, try to reach Republican voters and make them see sense, sure, but those should secondary goals next to unionization, and if I'm going to be 100% honest, moving a hardline MAGA-type over to a slightly less awful position of "hey, maybe every job should pay you enough to be able to live" is only a small improvement in the big picture as far as I'm concerned. We've got a lot more problems to tackle than just that. Our energy is better spent elsewhere in my opinion. When the quality of life for the majority of lower and lower-middle class Republicans improves drastically, while the quality of life of middle and upper-middle class Republicans doesn't deteriorate, they will begin to move over.
 
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Crunchman

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Smogon is a Pokémon forum with a majority userbase of 15-25 year olds. It absolutely does not represent US politics as a whole and like most other internet communities has a political demographic that lines up with millennials / gen Z (specifically the left leaning ones who play video games and post on Reddit, not the guy from your high school who has a truck for a Facebook profile picture and thinks liberalism is a disease). Actual US political demographics is closer to 50/50 with the independents leaning slightly left. If you don't encourage the opposition to post in these bubbles then you end up with this thread, which is mostly just a bunch of Pokémon players agreeing as how Trump / Republicans are bad, yet no one is actually having serious discussion about WHY people would want to vote for a right leaning candidate. Obviously not every Trump voter is a racist uneducated hillbilly and if you never even try to talk with the other side then you will remain ignorant of what they vote for, then you can't pick candidates who meet closer in the middle who will actually win an election.

For example many right leaning voters oppose a 15 an hour federal minimum wage. It's easy to say they hate poor people and shut them off when they try to talk. And yes, many have the stupid generic Boomer responses "Mcdonalds isn't supposed to be a career, higher min wage = inflation" etc. But if you actually talk to a conservative who is politically invested they might be more likely to just say they think minimum wage should be controlled by the states, as a livable wage in Los Angeles is different to Fort Wayne Indiana. People living in these areas wouldn't see quality of life increase with a higher minimum wage, they would see most small business destroyed, an increase in unemployment, and an increase in rent. Even if a person disagrees with that and thinks min wage would help rural areas it's important to actually talk with these people and address their concerns. Yeah a minimum wage increase will help far more people than it will hurt, but it WILL hurt some people and many people will vote against you if their fears aren't being addressed. Republican voters have actually voted in favor of minimum wage increases at the state and local level multiple times so the answer isn't as simple as them hating the poors.

I disagree with pretty much everything Republicans say but they still have opinions and the ability to vote, and if a person isn't willing to talk with them then they aren't helping anyone. Yeah you probably won't change the views of a super right-leaning red hat wearing Trump flag flying truck nuts guy but the majority of people aren't so far invested in their party that they couldn't have their opinion swayed. It's especially important to talk with the opposition on public forums where for every one person you reply to a hundred others will read your comment, and many of these people are politically centrists or otherwise "don't involve themselves" with politics. For these passive readers your comments could help sway them to see how unreasonable the other side is or how rational your ideas are. It's important to let people see both sides and decide for themselves. Just saying mean things about the other side isn't going to convince anyone in the same way that a Republican calling the lefts "Libtards" isn't going to make you sympathetic to them. We have to actually engage.

tl;dr online political discussion probably won't change the opinion of the person you're talking with but it will definitely help onlookers realize who the crazy one is which is probably the most important thing we can do in an era of political bubbles.
This is tuff because what you’ve mentioned as examples of reasonableness are economic issues and most objections to right-wing politics have to do with the social issues, tbh. Only time economic issues come into play are when they have big social ramifications (think cutting Medicare) but really that’s still just a social issue operating under the guise of economics. Everyone wants to see the common man prosper (or at least claims to, that’s how you get votes). Left and right economic policy aren’t super different, there’s big business backing and influencing both sides of the aisle. For most people I would say that party preference is more tied to the social issues than to the economic issues and a lot of economic stances serve as guises to execute social agendas. Do people vote Republican for reasons without hateful undertones? Yeah sure maybe, but a large majority of policy and support for the party focus on contentious issues that sacrifice freedoms and quality of life for minorities of people in return for the affirmation of certain belief systems (most commonly some interpretations of Christianity, but everyone’s reasons are different; it should also go without saying that not all Christians vote republican. Kind of an apples are fruits but not all fruits are apples type of deal).

Adeleine’s point is pretty salient simply because there’s no reason to amplify an argument you’re not subscribed to. (Also, she obviously disagrees with the original post’s view, but she’s not saying that the post itself shouldn’t be made. Just that it shouldn’t be encouraged to expand for the sake of “preventing it from being a far left circle jerk”)

Just because everyone happens to think one way doesn’t mean that the other way needs to be pushed more just for the sake of it. It’s not like the other side hasn’t been considered, it has and it’s been thoughtfully rejected. My parents (since for most of the past few elections and all of the presidential ones I have been a minor) have always voted democrat except in 2016 when we voted for trump. In 2020 we switched back to Biden. When I first voted last election (not house/senate but state and county elections) I knew I subscribed to most left wing ideals (not all) and that greatly informed my decision making. This is all to say that while similar viewpoints may be tossed out, viewpoints are being made based on careful thought and aren’t predetermined. If they are naturally similar then that is okay, if they are naturally different that is also okay.
 
Biden is a disaster from a foreign pol perspective. Imagine being so bad you'll end up pushing most of Europe into the hands of Russia and China.

I hope Trump, Biden and all the other dinosaurs in the house and senate get annihilated in whatever elections they end up in, it's a joke that American politics is filled with geriatrics, most of whom have been in power for 30+ years and almost everything has gotten worse.
 

Chou Toshio

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Biden is a disaster from a foreign pol perspective. Imagine being so bad you'll end up pushing most of Europe into the hands of Russia and China.

I hope Trump, Biden and all the other dinosaurs in the house and senate get annihilated in whatever elections they end up in, it's a joke that American politics is filled with geriatrics, most of whom have been in power for 30+ years and almost everything has gotten worse.
“Buck Stops with Me.” Takes responsibility to pull out of Afghanistan— based

Give Ukraine weapons to defend themselves from fascist invasion but ignores hawk voices from both parties demanding troups/air cover in Ukraine— based

Supports Lula’s democratic victory and sends personal security consultation— based
(I mean you got a US President enabling democratic election of a Latin American leftist > fascist dictator instead of the usual couping the leftist to install the dictator)

Says we’ll defend Taiwan from China— as an Asian American living in Japan you don’t even need to ask how I feel about that one.

Single-handedly ends the Drone War— baaaaaasseed~~~

Overall there’s room for complaints (in anything) but foreign policy is an area where I support Biden the most.

There were even times in this Presidency when I agreed more with Biden than some shit parts of the left were saying.
 
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