Yeah, when I used Pangoro in XY, I'd always do so with max defensive investment. It was pretty okay, actually, and after Pangoro got access to Knock Off and Drain Punch, it had a LOT more utility, as well as that uninvested 124 Atk stat. The main difference that makes Persian WAY better at its job in my opinion, is that it gets to choose what hits to take because of the big speed stat. Pangoro does distinguish itself for being a slow Parting Shot user(much like slow U-Turns) with Mold Breaker and access to healing(Drain Punch) and priority(Bullet Punch).
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Pokémon Alola Persian
- Thread starter Valiant Scizor
- Start date
- Status
Here's a set which I came up with, a fast switch-forcing pivot:
Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Charm
- Confide / Foul Play
- Parting Shot
Charm nukes Attack by -2, a real neutering of physical attackers slower than you. On a physical attacker this will either lead to a switch, or an SD, and if you follow up with Parting Shot then either way there's something left with -1 Atk and SpAtk. If they don't switch, then that's -3 Atk, a monumental debuff by any count. Confide drops Special Attack by -1 which although isn't quite as good, as special attackers often only have CM to boost, this'll achieves similar results as with Charm - leaving opponents with -2 if they don't switch, or leaving they do switch the switch-in with -1/-1. Taunt is used for annoyance, and a fast Foul Play can be used to OHKO some slow boosted attackers.
I feel ordinarily none of this would be worth talking about, but given Persian's pretty great speed tier short of Scarfers it outspeeds a whole bunch of mons (particularly Fairy checks not named Koko), and Charm means it can thoroughly check DDers as if they try to set in your face you can reduce their attack faster than they can boost it. This means it shouldn't really take hits, making it's thin bulk not so bad (although it's reasonable on the physical side, with Fur Coat).
Z-Parting Shot full heals whatever you bring in next. While not so great as something like Healing Wish as it doesn't cure status, it is pretty significant and not something to be ignored (in fact, I was originally thinking of this set in anticipation of a Lele ban when trying to think of what else could handle stall, and then thinking well Stallbreaker Heatran always got worn down to easily - and thinking a Z-Parting Shot might be the answer to get him ship shape). Leftovers is another option to gradually heal you, but that Z-Parting Shot is pretty awesome. Another option I thought about was Chesto-Resto in the place of Taunt, but as you don't really want to take hits it's not very intuitive.
I feel this set would be a good advantage to a crap load of teams, with it's ability to force switches it seems like a huge momentum grabber which has use pretty much everywhere you can put it. As a calc I though was somewhat illustrative, in terms of a very hard physical hit, there's this:
-2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 87-103 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Given that you should only expect this momentum grab 2-3 times in a match (IMO), I think that's perfectly good on the physical side. People should try it out, I know I will be.
Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt / Foul Play
- Charm
- Confide / Foul Play
- Parting Shot
Charm nukes Attack by -2, a real neutering of physical attackers slower than you. On a physical attacker this will either lead to a switch, or an SD, and if you follow up with Parting Shot then either way there's something left with -1 Atk and SpAtk. If they don't switch, then that's -3 Atk, a monumental debuff by any count. Confide drops Special Attack by -1 which although isn't quite as good, as special attackers often only have CM to boost, this'll achieves similar results as with Charm - leaving opponents with -2 if they don't switch, or leaving they do switch the switch-in with -1/-1. Taunt is used for annoyance, and a fast Foul Play can be used to OHKO some slow boosted attackers.
I feel ordinarily none of this would be worth talking about, but given Persian's pretty great speed tier short of Scarfers it outspeeds a whole bunch of mons (particularly Fairy checks not named Koko), and Charm means it can thoroughly check DDers as if they try to set in your face you can reduce their attack faster than they can boost it. This means it shouldn't really take hits, making it's thin bulk not so bad (although it's reasonable on the physical side, with Fur Coat).
Z-Parting Shot full heals whatever you bring in next. While not so great as something like Healing Wish as it doesn't cure status, it is pretty significant and not something to be ignored (in fact, I was originally thinking of this set in anticipation of a Lele ban when trying to think of what else could handle stall, and then thinking well Stallbreaker Heatran always got worn down to easily - and thinking a Z-Parting Shot might be the answer to get him ship shape). Leftovers is another option to gradually heal you, but that Z-Parting Shot is pretty awesome. Another option I thought about was Chesto-Resto in the place of Taunt, but as you don't really want to take hits it's not very intuitive.
I feel this set would be a good advantage to a crap load of teams, with it's ability to force switches it seems like a huge momentum grabber which has use pretty much everywhere you can put it. As a calc I though was somewhat illustrative, in terms of a very hard physical hit, there's this:
-2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 87-103 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Given that you should only expect this momentum grab 2-3 times in a match (IMO), I think that's perfectly good on the physical side. People should try it out, I know I will be.
Two things wrong with this set.
First: using Charm is counterproductive to Foul Play; second, Confide is useless. Use Snarl, it does damage as well as doing exactly the same thing Confide does (with a plus of not being blocked by Taunt).
If you really want to use such set, i wouls use this set instead:
Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / Taunt
- Charm
- Snarl
- Parting Shot
Toxic cripples many things without being counterproductive with Charm, and Snarl does damage and drops the target SpA 100% of the time, much better than Confide.
First: using Charm is counterproductive to Foul Play; second, Confide is useless. Use Snarl, it does damage as well as doing exactly the same thing Confide does (with a plus of not being blocked by Taunt).
If you really want to use such set, i wouls use this set instead:
Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / Taunt
- Charm
- Snarl
- Parting Shot
Toxic cripples many things without being counterproductive with Charm, and Snarl does damage and drops the target SpA 100% of the time, much better than Confide.
Foul Play isn't necessarily counter productive if they've already setup, if something is +2 and you outspeed then Foul Play can OHKO whereas Charm to get them back to 0 boost may still mean they can OHKO you depending on the mon. Foul Play was also a secondary slash in both instances, implying secondary to the main set - in which case I think it's a perfectly fine secondary option. You're never going to be as good at countering Special Attackers, which is why it's suggested with the Confide and Taunt options.
Snarl is a reasonable suggestion, though it's 95% accuracy is a major drawback. I think the Taunt argument is redundant, yes there are faster Taunters than Persian but it's realistically just not going to happen - particularly as most of the new common Taunters are Tapus and you need a separate measure for Koko who outspeeds. I think the real question is if you want to risk misses when the main things that'll switch-in to take hits are Dark resists anyway, in which case I do think Confide is the better option (plus Sub CM sets aren't checked by something that just drops SpAtk by 1). I would go for Confide given the reproducibility and Persian's pitiful Special Attack in combo with Snarl's low BP (not far from a STAB Tackle) - rather than risk the 1 in 20 chance it craps out on you (which with my luck, happens remarkably a lot).
Toxic is fine, but you're never going to be stalling anything out, so as an option it needs a lot of support from the team who can take advantage of (and at that point you wonder why they wouldn't just be running Toxic themselves rather than rely on another mon). Taunt is an option it can use stand-alone, and so I think it would always be the primary rather than secondary option.
Overall I think my original set is better for the reasons stated, and I don't think it's good form to repost a set more or less as your own while making superficial changes. If you were radically changing the set then fine, but it seems to me like you're making a few touches while trying to claim some credit for it - when you could have just suggested changes to the existing set.
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Oddly enough, I started doing some calcs last night that might be of interest for this debate?/discussion.
tldr; Charm+Foul Play/Parting Shot against +2 Kartana means Persian is now half health while Kartana is still (somewhat) alive. Going straight for Foul Play forces it out or clean KO's. Even at +1 A-Persian is more likely to KO than it is.
Just about everyone will be expecting Parting Shot, so Toxic could definitely cripple most incoming tanks (i.e. Not Toxapex). Snarl does get around taunt if you really want to run Charm, and you might be able to bluff some gimmicky Technician set? Probably not. It would break sashes/Sturdy though.
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 190-224 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 159-187 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 376-444 (112.9 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 315-372 (121.6 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 282-334 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 237-279 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
*Forgot to factor in Life Orb, in which case +1 Sacred Sword can ohko barring a some sort of 200/200 set. Unboosted is still a 2hko
0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 159-187 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 376-444 (112.9 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 315-372 (121.6 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 282-334 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 237-279 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
*Forgot to factor in Life Orb, in which case +1 Sacred Sword can ohko barring a some sort of 200/200 set. Unboosted is still a 2hko
tldr; Charm+Foul Play/Parting Shot against +2 Kartana means Persian is now half health while Kartana is still (somewhat) alive. Going straight for Foul Play forces it out or clean KO's. Even at +1 A-Persian is more likely to KO than it is.
Just about everyone will be expecting Parting Shot, so Toxic could definitely cripple most incoming tanks (i.e. Not Toxapex). Snarl does get around taunt if you really want to run Charm, and you might be able to bluff some gimmicky Technician set? Probably not. It would break sashes/Sturdy though.
If i were to to drastically change the set, then Persian would do something completely different other than support pivoting. That's the purpose of the set, isn't it? i'm suggesting changes to the set to get the most out of it. If you don't agree with said changes, that's fine, it's a suggestion anyway.
But i'm trying to claim credit? What?
Lastly, the bolded parts are really contraditory, don't you think?
Let's discuss some options:
Toxic is not for stalling with Persian; it gives you a chance to cripple something, which is always good. Toxic is more and more common for a reason; it's always good to have.
You're right about Foul Play, it's the main form of damage A-Persian can have when using it to counter something like said Kartana or many slower mons that can set up. The situation i was referring to is when you Charm something on the switch in, but only has Foul Play as a attack (and you need to attack), which IS counterproductive, but will not happen at most occasions.
Confide vs Snarl: Confide has perfect accuracy, Snarl has 95% (which is a lot). Snarl pitiful damage isn't the focus; it's exactly the chip damage it does that can also turn a match on your favor, just like missing with Snarl could... but Persian is already pretty frail on the special side so it won't be as gamebreaking IMO. If you really want the SpA drop without any chances of missing you can use Confide, no problem. I personally just don't see why would i, and that's only my opinion.
Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play / Taunt
- Charm
- Snarl / Confide / Toxic / Foul Play
- Parting Shot
-Parting Shot is a must.
-Taunt and Toxic shuts down many mons relying on recovery, and ones trying to set up against you. Toxic cripples many things and is always useful, especially when you can soften blows with Parting Shot.
-Taunt and Foul Play can be used as well, with Taunt stopping any form of set up and Foul Play dealing damage.
-Snarl or Confide are up to preference.
Many support options, all valid.
If you have both Charm and Snarl/Confide on a Persian set, as well as Parting Shot, I think you're trying to achieve too much while in reality not actually achieving anything.
Foul Play, Taunt and Parting Shot should be on every set and then you pick the status move of choice in the final slot. Which I think should be Toxic in most cases.
Foul Play, Taunt and Parting Shot should be on every set and then you pick the status move of choice in the final slot. Which I think should be Toxic in most cases.
I think just looking at Kartana is a bit of tunnel vision tbh, you only want to try and tackle things you can manage. It is also why Foul Play is suggested as an extra option.
I was talking about posting another importable, it seems unnecessary and rather unlike you're trying to produce a dialogue about the set which suggesting changes would be doing. Especially the way you say, "Two things wrong this set," as if it's fact not opinion - and then going on to post the importable, it can certainly be interpreted as you repurposing the set and claiming it should be the definitive version.
The support options as you've represented them in this last post however, seem solid. It seems more or less the best version of the set.
How so? You've just posted an empty opinion based on conjecture without anything to clarify it. Your post was in no way constructive.
It's just commonsense. I've actually used A-Persian and it's a supportive pivot that switches into things and then supports the team by completely healing your switch-in while also stopping a threat from sweeping by weakening its stats. It can also revenge kill by picking off weakened threats with Foul Play, and shut down a wall with Taunt and Toxic. It can also break sashes with Fake Out if you go down that route.
But what is the point in Persian switching into something and then spamming Charm and Confide? It's not tanky enough to survive more than a couple of neutral hits. Your opponent can just switch in something else and you've just lost any advantage you've gained. You can't deal any major damage. You can't stall out something because you have no recovery move. You're not running Toxic either.
A-Persian really should be used to regain momentum by using Z-Parting Shot to heal a key teammate while also weakening a threat in the same process. It doesn't have any business sticking around in battle too long. It takes cheap shots and gets the hell out of there with its high speed.
I see literally zero purpose of sending in a Persian to spam Confide with no way of dealing damage or recovering its lost health. You may survive a turn or two, but any opponent with a brain will realise that you're going to Z-Parting Shot into something after the first Confide/Charm, predict your switch in and switch into something that can beat it and won't care too much about taking a parting shot. I'd rather just Toxic something and then use the Parting Shot because at least you've accomplished something in the long run. Yes Charm is a good move because it will force a switch and then you can Parting Shot what they switch in. But that's just Charm. If your moveset comprises entirely of Confide, Charm, Taunt and Parting Shot you are REALLY limiting your options and you won't have a way of dealing damage when you need to. Pick either Charm or Snarl, invest EV's accordingly and stick with it, and don't try and run both. Persian can't do everything. You will find yourself having to deal with switch ins that don't care about you lowering their stats/can't have their stats lowered and it's nice to be able to have another option like Foul Play or Toxic at your disposal.
I feel like I'm just rambling now. Go use Confide Persian, I don't care.
Well I'm so glad I had to prompt you to actually do a decent post summarising your feelings, rather than that glib pointless thing you initially posted which lacked any kind of rational opinion. I really don't get why you and a lot of people on here don't just post what you think initially rather than just saying, "This is crap," and then waiting for the other person to ask them for more detail. It's wastes everyone's damn time as it doesn't add anything to the conversation, and beyond that I think it's highly rude and annoying.
I never suggested Charm or Confide and manual switch, as you seem to be saying as that's the only way you lose momentum, as that's brain dead stupid when you have a fast Parting Shot. Either you fundamentally don't understand switching mechanics (you're saying you can just switch in after Parting Shot in the same turn) or you didn't grasp what I was suggesting with the set. Sure some things don't care for a -1/-1, but that is why you pack some stallbreakers: SubCoil Zygarde, Stallbreaker Heatran, Taunt Mega-Gyarados, etc. Later in the match, Z-Parting Shot can full heal these once more, and give stall a fresh headache.
Or, if you're facing off against balance/BO/HO, somethings there will care about a -1/-1, and then you can you can bring in a potent sweeper: an SD Kartana against a physical mon without coverage, Zard-X, etc. You get a free boost as they switch out.
Both of these scenarios give you momentum that the opponent can't do anything about, and with Charm at the very least you're going to be forcing more switches than the regular set Persian set.
For the record, I also never said I'll definitely run both Confide and Charm, it was a suggestion. I'll certainly try both, but quite possibly Snarl works better over Confide, or Foul Play is better than Confide - I think it really depends on what exactly you want the set to be doing. I'll test it after Christmas when I have the time - on a team with both stall-breakers and regular strong setup mons who can take advantage of momentum either way. Who knew that you can actually have a whole extra team of pokemon to make up for the deficiencies that one pokemon has in it's role and typing?
Okay, so this is impossible. Their switch happens before your Parting Shot or Z-Parting Shot, giving you the switch advantage and the momentum. So debuff move, they switch and you Parting Shot, you should have some setup sweepers that can't take advantage of what has just happened and anti-stallmons too to face the mons that don't care about the a -1/-1 debuff. Either way, you gained the momentum.
I never suggested Charm or Confide and manual switch, as you seem to be saying as that's the only way you lose momentum, as that's brain dead stupid when you have a fast Parting Shot. Either you fundamentally don't understand switching mechanics (you're saying you can just switch in after Parting Shot in the same turn) or you didn't grasp what I was suggesting with the set. Sure some things don't care for a -1/-1, but that is why you pack some stallbreakers: SubCoil Zygarde, Stallbreaker Heatran, Taunt Mega-Gyarados, etc. Later in the match, Z-Parting Shot can full heal these once more, and give stall a fresh headache.
Or, if you're facing off against balance/BO/HO, somethings there will care about a -1/-1, and then you can you can bring in a potent sweeper: an SD Kartana against a physical mon without coverage, Zard-X, etc. You get a free boost as they switch out.
Both of these scenarios give you momentum that the opponent can't do anything about, and with Charm at the very least you're going to be forcing more switches than the regular set Persian set.
I always think the assumption that people make that a set suggested is acting in a perfect bubble is weird, there's a whole other team of support that you can switch in to deal with a mon that doesn't "care about you lowering their stats". You keep saying that Taunt and Toxic are so helpful against stall, but really Persian is never going to be handling stall by itself (you don't have any recovery with Darkinium-Z and can't do much of anything against Natural Cure Seismic Toss Chansey, Skarmory, Toxapex or Mega Sableye) so you're always going to be relying on other team mates to do that for you... just like my set would be.
For the record, I also never said I'll definitely run both Confide and Charm, it was a suggestion. I'll certainly try both, but quite possibly Snarl works better over Confide, or Foul Play is better than Confide - I think it really depends on what exactly you want the set to be doing. I'll test it after Christmas when I have the time - on a team with both stall-breakers and regular strong setup mons who can take advantage of momentum either way. Who knew that you can actually have a whole extra team of pokemon to make up for the deficiencies that one pokemon has in it's role and typing?
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To be honest I just don't usually have the time to post long explanations. Usually I'm posting things on a lunch break or something. It's not deliberate rudeness
I've been having tremendous success with this set myself
Persian-Alola (F) @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 228 HP / 28 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Foul Play
- Taunt
- Fake Out
A very good anti anything set. Fake out as a great annouance, Sash breaker, and all around stall. Taunt to stop set uppers. Foul play to hit some pokemon very hard. Parting shot for pretty much all the reasons stated in this threa. This cat is quite annoying and great
Persian-Alola (F) @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 228 HP / 28 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Foul Play
- Taunt
- Fake Out
A very good anti anything set. Fake out as a great annouance, Sash breaker, and all around stall. Taunt to stop set uppers. Foul play to hit some pokemon very hard. Parting shot for pretty much all the reasons stated in this threa. This cat is quite annoying and great
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