With Necrozma-DM being the tier's premier Stealth Rock setter, Primal Groudon has the opportunity to increasingly tap into its offensive niches. Mixed sets in particular have proven to be lethal wallbreakers, packing Eruption on top of EdgeQuake coverage and filler moves such as Hidden Power Ice and Rest. Perhaps the most dangerous out of these is the Swords Dance set, easily overwhelming traditional Primal Groudon counterplay in Arceus-Ground, Zygarde-C, Giratina, and Arceus-Water. With these sets popping up more often lately due to their wallbreaking prowess and clutch defensive niches, it is time to brainstorm answers.
[Submission phase ends Saturday 11th of July 3 PM GMT]
Untransformed, Zygarde can easily swallow a +2 Precipice Blades and Glare PDon, allowing it to outrun it with the added bonus of Hazing its boosts before it can PBlades again (PBlades + Eruption isnt an OHKO). It can then proceed to Rest or chip PDon directly with TArrows, which also cuts into Eruption’s power quite substantially. At worst, Groudon must trade with Zygarde-C, and at best, Zygarde can sick around a bit longer.
Y'know, Primal Groudon there is sporting some nice Fire/Groudon/Rock coverage. You know what resists Fire and Ground while not necessarily being weak to Rock? Mega Rayquaza. You know what can OHKO uninvested Primal Groudon without using a coverage move or much of any investment at all? Life Orb Mega Rayquaza.
Thanks to its Flying/Dragon typing comboed with an excellent ability in Delta Stream and an only slightly less effective pre-mega ability in Air Lock, Rayquaza can switch into Primal Groudon with ease. It's immune to Precipice Blades, often avoids the 2HKO from Eruption if Stealth Rock isn't up, and, thanks to Delta Stream, requires Stealth Rock to be up to be 2HKOed by +0 Stone Edge.
Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. Rayquaza-Mega: 0 -- possibly the worst move ever
Mega Rayquaza's mere presence deters Primal Groudon from using Precipice Blades for fear of giving Rayquaza a free switch-in.
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 166-196 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock or Life Orb Recoil
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Air Lock Rayquaza in Harsh Sunshine: 182-214 (51.8 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rayquaza can switch into Eruption even though it might not like it.
4 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 121-143 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Despite being a Flying-type, Delta Stream prevents Primal Groudon from bypassing it with Stone Edge.
However, +2 Stone Edge will KO after Stealth Rock on the switch thanks to Life Orb recoil caused by the turn Rayquaza mega-evolved, and base Rayquaza will be dispatched by +0 after Stealth Rock thanks to lacking Delta Stream. This is the only way Primal Groudon can possibly defeat Rayquaza, for once Rayquaza is in:
32 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 341-402 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With a mere 32 SpA investment and a Life Orb, one can consistently depend on Mega Rayquaza to swiftly remove Mixed Primal Groudon from the game, regardless of whether or not Stealth Rock is on the field.
Once Mega Rayquaza is in, Primal Groudon has exactly two choices:
Get forced out in an extremely punishable switch by the Pokemon infamous for being difficult to switch into.
Let's review how difficult this is to switch into:
32 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 317-374 (80.6 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
224+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 409-484 (104 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
224+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 411-484 (104.5 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensively-oriented Yveltal sets aren't going to like switching or dealing with Draco Meteor any day of the week, and Rayquaza will still 2HKO.
224+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 627-738 (192.3 - 226.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sure, it can switch into actual Draco Meteors, adding mind games, but it has to deal with Rayquaza's V-Create mindgame in return. Also, Dragon Ascent is a 2HKO.
224+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 156-185 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
224+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-* (when were flying resists viable?): 226-266 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
224+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 322-380 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
32 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 144-170 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You can essentially kiss your Necrozma-DM goodbye.
Switching into an attack breaks Shadow Shield. Lunala is fucked after that.
Don't even ask about Zygarde.
Also note that Rayquaza outspeeds everything on this list barring Zacian-C.
Also forgot to mention that Mega Rayquaza provides utility thanks to access to Extreme Speed.
Arceus-Ground is a check to Primal Groudon. Arceus can OHKO with Groundium Z with no boosts. To be able to set up with SD, you need to first turn EQ lowering the damage output of Eruption. Then SD and kill with EQ next turn.
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 410-486 (120.2 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 228-270 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (29 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground in Harsh Sunshine: 69-82 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO (P-Don at 20% health)
4 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 186-219 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
Marshadow is a check to Primal Groudon. I always thought that Sash Marsh was the better set, being able to check set-up sweepers and being immune to Extreme Speed, the top priority option in AG. In this case, Marshadow comes in to steal Groudon’s boosts and 2HKO at +2 while it hangs on to its Sash. Alternatively, a Choice Band or Adamant + Life Orb can be run to OHKO Groudon at +2. Note that Groudon wins if it opts not to boost, but that can be dealt with Arceuses. Definitely a more anti-meta pick as it requires rocks off the field and Groudon can predict switches and choose to boost, but it still works well nonetheless.
+2 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon: 237-280 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon: 159-187 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon: 159-187 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
adamant life orb:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon: 339-399 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Arceus-Dragon is something I considered bringing to seasonal finals (fair warning: it's bad) as a solid counter to mixed Groudon that can still accomplish some of the things a standard Refresh Arceus can. Like Arceus-Water, it resists Eruption and isn't weak to Ground/Rock coverage, but it doesn't have to sacrifice a moveslot for an attack like Earth Power to be able to deal out decent damage to Groudon since Dragon-typed Judgment is neutral vs it. The speed investment allows Arceus to outspeed Groudon, the special defense allows it to take two 150 BP Water Spouts from modest Scarf Kyogre, while the rest is dumped into defense to allow it to tank +2 Precipice Blades and physical attacks in general more easily. An optional choice is to re-allocate 36 EVs from defense into special attack to ensure the 2HKO on Groudon from full.
attacks vs Arceus
+2 4 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Arceus-Dragon: 307-363 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Arceus-Dragon: 154-183 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Arceus-Dragon in Harsh Sunshine: 171-202 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
attacks vs Groudon
0 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Ekiller can't switch into Mixed Pdon because of Eruption / SD, but if it gets a free switch into Pdon, it can SD, survive Eruption, and kill Pdon with +2 Breakneck Blitz. This weird EV spread and nature allows it to outspeed the Pdon set and survive a sun-boosted Eruption.
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 192 HP / 0+ SpD Arceus in Harsh Sunshine: 318-375 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 186-219 (43.3 - 51%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While zacian can't switch in to a sun boosted eruption or +2 precipice blades you just need to get in via a free switch or after a teammate dies. No swords dance buffs are needed tbh +1 252 Atk Zacian Tectonic Rage (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 384-454 (112.6 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Giratina is a very good pdon check, giratina resist eruption and can survive a +2 pblade for pdon. Pdon without rest is easily crippled with toxic and will lose a lot of power off of eruption after dealing with giratina.
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 166-196 (33 - 38.9%) -- 8.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 144-169 (28.6 - 33.5%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 285-336 (56.6 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 4 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 426-502 (84.6 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyogre @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Flying
Although it is not as common as Yveltal, Kyogre is undoubtedly close to as dangerous as a Dynamax abuser. Its wallbreaking prowess is nigh unmatched in the tier. After a Calm Mind and under Dynamax, it is easily capable of waltzing over generally solid answers to Kyogre, 2HKO'ing the likes of Ferrothorn, Primal Groudon, and even Chansey. Recently, it has become particularly popular and effective, holding among the highest winrates in AGPL, so it is high time to come up with counterplay.
[Submission phase ends Saturday 18th July 3 PM GMT]
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
- Seismic Toss
Submitting as a counter. Worst case scenario, the Kyogre CMs on the switch and goes for Max Geyser, which does a lot of damage:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Max Geyser vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 347-409 (54 - 63.7%)
If you think that the Kyogre will CM instead of Dynamaxing, Confide. Otherwise, you spam Soft-Boiled until Dynamax is over. Then just spam Confide, unless you are low on health, in which case you Soft-Boiled, unless you predict the Kyogre to go for CM. If you do predict the Kyogre to CM, Confide. You will eventually get the chance to finally Toxic the Kyogre and then just spam Soft-Boiled (or Confide if you predict a CM). R.I.P.
. The fact that Chansey has to win a very lethal mindgame in order to beat this Kyogre set should speak to its effectiveness as a wallbreaker.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 273-321 (42.5 - 50%)
252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 183-216 (28.5 - 33.6%)
-1 252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 122-146 (19 - 22.7%)
Groudon @ Red Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Overheat / Rest
While not as common due to defensive Dusk Mane taking the role of a defensive Rocker, this can notably manage Kyogre thanks to Desolate Land, being neutral to coverage, and being able to hit back. Kyogre can only win if it Dynamaxes, and even then, Groudon can simply switch out (or be a chad and Rest with Bell support). Precipice Blades hits for 40 minimum if Dynamaxed and weaken Kyogre enough to be revenge killed by the next mon coming in. All in all, a shaky check, but Kyogre is very difficult to play vs, and this can aid in that.
Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 132 SpD / 124 Spe
- Calm Mind
The goal of this set is pretty simple; switch in to a calm mind, calm mind up, and easily win the 1v1 given the speed creep, regardless of kyogre dynamaxing. The only real risk is that they may be scarf thunder, but it's not likely to get hit by one.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Max Geyser vs. +1 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arceus-Water in Rain: 173-204 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Max Airstream vs. +1 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arceus-Water: 121-143 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Simple enough, you always win barring a crit, even with rocks up