Gen 3 ADV Ubers Viability Ranking Thread, Take 3

Aberforth

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Salamence isn't great due to the physical special split meaning its strongest stab attack is Base 70 power hidden power flying, whereas shedinja counters kyogre, boltbeam latis, boltbeam rachi, and a plethora of other mons, and hazard control is far easier in ADV than it is in gen 4 and onwards since stealth rock and giratina O were introduced in generation 4.
 
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drop lugiass

The short of it is his typing sucks and it makes his sets crappy.

For the long bit, I'm going to cover three main sets starting with the worst. Reflect, CM, CB

Reflect Lugiass walls a shit ton of things and it also gives you stronger switching options and advantages. The good ends there. The biggest problem with the set is just how completely support reliant it is. It's a mon that just sits there and won't die (well except to Thunders...) but is completely reliant on teammates to actually kill things. It's also massive setup bait for Forretress, as well as Skarm if you don't have Ice Beam. Sets without Toxic are massive bait for Kyogre and Latis. Drop Whirlwind and setup sweepers can eventually break Lugiass by just boosting past it or employing Substitutes in addtion to the likes CurseLax, CmRest Kyogre, etc. getting easy setups. Steel-types become even harder and more reliant on Spikes to break, as well.

All the support required to cover these issues eats up slots. Lugiass itself add more weaknesses through its typing such as CB Shadow Balls, Thunders, and Ice Beams. In fact, the only resists it actually makes use of are EQ dodging and shrugging off Focus Punches. Compensating for these things through your teammates makes builds utilizing this set extremely limited and the Pokemon very far from splashable. You also fear Toxic and other status like the plague since its a super easy way to bypass Lugiass' walling abilities.

CM Lugiass encounters similar problems but at least it isn't reliant on Toxic and Spikes to kill things. Ice Beam may not hit very hard but Lugiass can get the boosts pretty easily and it snowballs with how hard it is to kill. Toxic, and Twave to an extent, still fucks the set over but at least you can ease up on the team support to just covering its status issues and shit typing. The saddest part about this set, though, is that without Reflect Lugiass is much more exploitable and doesn't wall nearly as much. Coverage moves like Rock Slide and Shadow Ball can break the bird, especially when SD/CB is involved. In fact, SD Slide GDon can tank two Ice Beams while Lugiass will not get a chance to fire off a third before dropping. Factor in prior damage and/or status and that EQ immunity + physical bulk starts to look like much less valuable than you'd at first assume.


Lastly, we have CB Lugiass. Imo, this is it's best set as its the least support reliant giving it a much stronger semblance of splashability. (although not really) Sadly, the fact it uses physical moves means that it becomes a weaker check to the one thing Lugiass is supposed to be switching into, Groudon. The weakness to the most common moves in the metagame still hurts it and lacking the raw power/resists to really count as a check to other mons makes it difficult to justify. The set mostly functions by abusing the fact nothing actually OHKOs the bird to threaten trades that it edges out the win in a majority of the time, thanks to that nice 110 speed stat. Still, Mewtwo and Deoxys-A give it competition for the role of "I can break things better than most but give you no extra switching flexibility n_n".


It's just really hard to justify Lugiass even if it isn't strictly speaking a bad pokemon. It's mostly outclassed by a combination of Skarm, Lati@s, and Mewtwo. The few teams where it does shine doesn't really justify having Lugiass sit in A rank.
 

Minority

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I'm probably not the best person to post right now because I'm also not really a fan of Lugia in ADV Ubers, but maybe this will motivate someone who likes Lugia in ADV Ubers to present a counter argument.

I have 19 ADV Ubers teams, 5 of which you could categorize as stall, and not one of those 19 teams has a Lugia on it. At some point, a few of those builds did have a Lugia but it was replaced for a Pokemon that offered more utility, defensive support, offensive presence, or whatever the reason was. I recently tried to make a stall team that integrated Lugia well, but it ended up going in a different direction and Lugia was dropped.

While I think personal anecdotes and usage are poor arguments for viability, I just have a hard time seeing the appeal of Lugia which is apparent from how many teams I have with it.
 
I'm going to back the claims of the 2 users above me; I have about 3 good Lugia teams, all of which employ CB Lugia. Every stall build I have prefers something else to it as it's just so passive and actually isn't a great counter to much except Ray. CB Lugia is still really fucking strong tho, especially coupled with Mag support, so it should only drop to B+ imo.

I'd also like Metagross to drop down as well. Its Explosion obviously hits like a truck and Pursuit is nice utility for trapping Deo-A but its slow and lacks the bulk to come in on many threats. Thunder Lati 2HKO it (Timid Latios Thunderbolt has a pretty good chance to 2HKO too) and the same goes for Mewtwo. Metagross is also hazard bait for Forre and Skarm, both of which are seeing increased usage atm. However, that's not to say it's a bad mon. Steel typing is still very nice for checking mono-Lati and it's a great mon with which to punish the omnipresent Snorlax and Blissey. Fast CB will almost always net 1 kill with its speed, coverage, and power. Fast 4 Atks has a strong boom and hp [fire] so it's not hazard bait like CB. Agility is still a nice lure for Groudon w/ boom and a decent cleaner. Defensive mixed has the always sexy Pursuit for Deo-A and some firepower to back it up. Because Metagross has a relevant niche and hits hard despite its defensive shortcomings, it shouldn't drop too much. B+ seems good for it.

I'm also gonna push for Blissey to A+. It's the best check to all special attackers in this meta and is the only viable cleric. The CM set is a really nice countermeasure against any specially based offense and provides a nice wincon and status sponge for bulky balance. Blissey 6-0s quite a few teams by it's lonesome once physical attackers are gone, which isn't that hard of a task to accomplish w/ stall and the hazard based balances that Blissey tends to reside on. That being said, it kills momentum and punished by Snorlax very easily, who is among the best and common mons in the meta imo, so I could see it staying in A.

Also, Celebi and Dugtrio really need to be ranked somewhere. We have absolute trashmons like Lanturn and Slaking ranked and both Dug and Bi are better than them imo.
 

Fireburn

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I moved Blissey to A+, it's definitely one of the best Pokemon in this metagame.

I also dropped Metagross to B+, mostly for not being that reliable of a Lati check for being a Steel as Thunder usually 2HKOes it easily.

I can't help but wonder if you guys are being a bit harsh on Lugia. You guys make a huge deal about covering its type weaknesses, but I must point out that Latis share most of these weaknesses as well, save for the obvious Electric one but your team should be able to handle CB SBalls and BoltBeam anyway, that's standard to cover when teambuilding. I don't really see how it has issues fitting on stall or balance when its the best answer to Groudon and Rayquaza available, you'll have to elaborate a bit more on that. I guess you can argue it lets things Spike but I don't think that's as much of a problem in ADV Ubers where there are fewer viable Spikers and its much easier to spin. And I don't feel like you can say its outclassed by Skarmory when Lugia has Recover, 110 Speed, and much higher bulk overall.

I'd like to see how well it does overall in Minority's ADV tour before making a decision as Lugia has seen a fair bit of usage there.
 
You guys make a huge deal about covering its type weaknesses, but I must point out that Latis share most of these weaknesses as well, save for the obvious Electric one but your team should be able to handle CB SBalls and BoltBeam anyway, that's standard to cover when teambuilding.
That's the point, you are already going to have a Lati on your team giving you those same weaknesses. Putting Lugiass on it as well is just stacking problems with specific typings and you get jack shit in exchange besides a ground immunity you can't really use that well.

I don't really see how it has issues fitting on stall or balance when its the best answer to Groudon and Rayquaza available, you'll have to elaborate a bit more on that.
lol, I already covered this in my first post. Lugiass is actually far from the best Groudon check, it outright loses if he runs SD with Rock Slide/Twave and Lugiass isn't the Reflect variant. (which is definitely his worst set) I don't see why you think it handles Ray better than Steel-types/Groudon besides, once again, the shitty Reflect set.


Keep in mind, B(+) isn't a rank for bad mons. I don't see how seeing success in the adv tour would bar it from dropping to there. (without large logical leaps of course)
 
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Fireburn

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Been thinking about bringing Deoxys-A back up to A+. I think it got too much hate when we initially did tiering but it really is one of the best mons in the metagame. It's defensive utility is limited (though it can revenge kill Lati/Mewtwo which is certainly very useful) but it's one of the best Pokemon in the metagame at providing immediate offensive pressure and it has virtually no safe walls due to its immense coverage and power. Non choiced sets are also underrated imo, Spell Tag gives Shadow Ball enough power to OHKO Latis and do ~80 to Mewtwo which gives you more room to run coverage moves and slam things that try to check you, and SubPetaya can make a scary cleaner lategame. Pursuit trapping a non-choiced Deo-A is also not as easy as you might think:

0 SpA Metagross Pursuit vs. 0/0 Deoxys-A: 192-226 (70.9 - 83.8%)
0 SpA Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0/0 Deoxys-A: 178-210 (73.8 - 87.1%)

Neither of these OHKO after 1 Spike which is really sad lol, so if it wants to Deo-A can stay in and muscle past them. Tyranitar is the only Pursuiter with enough SpA to OHKO Deoxys-A, and that gets OHKOed by Superpower...

I get that other things can provide large offensive pressure, but Deo-A is hard to compare to in terms of instant offense, and it's probably the best late-game cleaner in the tier. I think A+ fits it better than A personally.
 

Inspirited

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Definitely bring Deoxys-A back to A+. Let's face it, this thing still owns.

I would like to nominate Aerodactyl for B rank because of its Speed mainly. It is a potent revenge killer that can spam Rock Head Double Edge with little to no drawbacks on Mag Band offense. I must emphasize though, the only reason to use this is for Speed and to soft check flyers a bit better than CB Lugia, otherwise Lugia is the better option.
 

Minority

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Moving Deoxys-A up to A+ sounds good. It functions somewhat similar to Mewtwo, trading ability to switch in (Mewtwo doesn't really switch into much already) for a bit more Speed and power. It's certainly a step above Rayquaza and Lugia despite having pretty much no defensive synergy whatsoever. With that said, it's not on the level that the current S Rank mons are, and forces a team to provide defensive switch-ins with 5 slots to work with instead of 6 (not a big deal in ADV but still a setback in building).

Aerodactyl should be ranked and B is a good place to start. The Speed tier is great and the typing sets it apart from Mewtwo and Deoxys-A.
 
Lol, aero isn't that good. It's pretty outlcassed by the other rock sweepers. It's an alright mon in its own right but tricky to justify when you have options like Kabutops available. The typing is also kinda so-so, you can only really consider him a CB Lugiass check and absolutely last resort Gdon answer, neither are in high demand. Pursuit trapping Shedinja has honestly been the most common reason I've found him to fit on my teams. I'd stick it in B-

Deoxys-A is overrated as fuck. The Pursuit calcs are cute until you realize that those are for Deo-A staying in and that should be a non-issue if you aren't retarded and doing things like bringing Umbreon in on Superpower or thinking a Pursuit Metagross cuts it for your Deo-A check. (which seems to sadly be the case as there have been a fair number of teams that forgo having a ghost resist but somehow justify Metagross...)

Also, you are being extremely hyperbolic with your description of his offensive pressure. It's actually kinda funny how the only calcs demonstrating its power include the words "~80 to Mewtwo"... For those of you missing the humor, Deoxys-A doesn't OHKO anything that isn't weak to one of his attacks. Oh, plus a Choice Band and not *too* much defensive investment, please. Saying there aren't any safe switch-ins is pretty laughable. CB Deo-A has nothing to 2HKO phys def Kyogre (well, without resorting to Thunder!) and that's literally just an otherwise physically squishy mon that maxed out defensive investment cause it can.

idk about you but having a Pokemon that switches into jackshit and can only force switches on severely weakened Pokemon or those weak to a very specific set of coverage moves that also has to now predict what move it should click to actually do damage cause fuck there might be a Groudon or actual resists on the other guy's team oh and please for the love of god don't have a guy like Umbreon or Tyranitar cause I'll be really pissed if I try to kill this Latias here and your Shedinja answer sends me home with.....

but hey! Deoxys-A can run other sets that aren't CB! Very true. There are other physical sets but without CB they are just going to be benchwarmers hoping you setup cleaning conditions that a SubSalac Gdon would have swept with about 10 turns ago. The only redeeming set and the only reason I'd probably legit consider Deo-A beyond the novelty of actually using Deo-A is the special petaya set. However, that set is once again mildly crippled by benchwarmer status and is kinda hoping that the opposing team doesn't know how to deal with BoltBeam abusing coming from anything that isn't a Lati twin. Sure, there's team support but with a Pokemon that gives none it's pretty easy to see that there's only going to be a handful of teams (if that much) that can properly utilize the subpetaya set.

Folks really dig their sweepers and wallbreakers....
 
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Minority

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Guess I'm just biased because one of my favorite teams utilizes Sub Petaya Deoxys-A. Still a better mon than Lugia or Rayquaza imo.
 
Yeah but Lugiass should be dropping as well. I'd be on board with having Ray knocked down a few pegs, too.
 

Inspirited

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Yeah but Lugiass should be dropping as well. I'd be on board with having Ray knocked down a few pegs, too.
I disagree heavily since you would be dropping two of the best mons at spreading strong neutral coverage damage in the game and both have a chance to sweep with Lugia's high Speed with insane bulk and Rayquaza's strong Extreme Speed. Sometimes you don't even need to click Earthquake to bring down a Steel-type with these two because they are that good at doing damage.

RE Lugia: On your type weakness stacking argument, I must emphasize that Lugia does not care about Shadow Ball. No Shadow Ball OHKOes it and it can either KO the user easy with Aeroblast, or outspeed and 2HKO users like Ho-Oh and Snorlax while easily tanking the Shadow Ball. The only one that comes close to KOing Lugia is CB Deo-A and that caps out at 90%. On a similar note, no Thunder will ever OHKO it without a critical hit and, once again, Lugia eviscerates the attacker more often than not. Despite the bolt beam they carry, Lugia is a pain for Latios and Latias because they will be forced to eat an Aeroblast or Shadow Ball and are forced to give up a momentum shift or sac themselves when they KO Lugia next turn and give you a free switch. If they switch out of Lugia, that is more damage on the opponent's Steel- / Rock-type for a partner that aims to sweep with strong moves with good neutral coverage. I want it on my team because it can spread damage and it actually has coverage to hit steels and rocks (Aeroblast switch-ins) whereas Latios and Latias are hard walled against most Blissey variants. It tanks any hit in the game and can KO / outspeed 2HKO almost anything that can 2HKO it without Explosion or Self-Destruct. It is the the epitome of being able to spread damage and tank with a Choice Band thanks to Aeroblast's spamability. Its immunity to Ground-type attacks is just icing on its already very layered cake imo. Lugia is a really good mon, don't drop it.

RE Rayquaza: This trades some bulk and Speed for an absolute monster of a Double-Edge, Earthquake, and Extreme Speed that can also provide defensive utility. Air Lock makes Exeggutor and other weather sweepers cry which is something very nice for offensive teams since they outspeed your team otherwise. Sweeping with Extreme Speed is always a possible win condition should you choose what mons surround Rayquaza correctly and its Earthquake actually murders most Steel- and Rock-types whereas Lugia can only damage them. It has a bunch more trouble sweeping due to its trading of speed and bulk, but its defensive utility is unique enough to find its way onto my teams and with its Extreme Speed and Double-Edge being as useful as they are, I am always impressed with what it does.

I am only addressing CB variants here because those are the variants I am most familiar with and DD Rayquaza is rather underwhelming. Defenive Lugia is something I have yet to try, but I have ideas of how to make it work; I will get back to you guys on that. CB variants are staples on CB offense teams and although they probably don't do nearly as well on balance and are extremely out of place on stall, the fact that they are staples in any very good variant of teams that have a variety ways of being built should keep them in the A rank whether it be A- or A imo.
 
On Lugiass - You've not actually contradicted anything I've said beyond the conclusion.
The set mostly functions by abusing the fact nothing actually OHKOs the bird to threaten trades that it edges out the win in a majority of the time, thanks to that nice 110 speed stat.
Is straight up your comments on the subject in two lines.

That you responded in that manner leads to believe that what you are overlooking is that mons doesn't occur in a vacuum. It's easy to construct isolated scenarios because the variables are limited and there's clear cut conclusions but *a lot* goes on in real games. Lugiass may be able to force those trades but it still struggles to find those switches where it doesn't sacrifice the precious bulk it needs to threaten those trades. This trade centric concept also hurts it once it actually gets into play. You are going to be heavily inclined to click Aeroblast in most cases to KO the shitter sitting in front of you because going for the EQ read on their Steel-type risks them actually accepting the trade and you lose a shit ton of HP for little pay out. Hell, you may even find yourself in a situation where you'll have to scrape your Lugiass in the following turn or pull it out of the should be favorable situation you had managed to manoeuvre it into. (btw, you don't have coverage to hit Skarmory) Pressuring Steel-types is certainly not unique to CB Lugiass so using that as your sole justification is either strained or a response to a specific teambuild's needs.

Also, not really important in regards to Lugiass but DD / mono Lati@s can actually bypass Blissey so it is misleading to claim she hardwalls them.

On Rayquaza - Just as a heads up, I consider this mon in higher regard than Lugiass. My gripes with it pretty much revolve around how it can be difficult to justify over just running another Lati twin. Obviously, it has the physical spectrum perks as well as Air Lock and the handful of clutch uses for Espeed. However, those are all pretty team specific details as *generally* your own weather setter, various resists, and multitude of bulky pokemon greatly reduces the specific need for the last two advantages Ray offers that I mentioned while having a special oriented team always remains an open option because you've very likely already have one Lati twin and using two is tried and true.

One advantage you didn't mention, btw, is the fact that Ray isn't weak to Ghost. This is helps a fair deal in making sure subsalac gdon doesn't get an easy clean so I consider it a decent boon, personally.



Last note to keep in mind. Although I'm highlighting the flaws in these Pokemon, I by no means consider them bad. I just think they are quite limited and shouldn't be considered first choice options. (well, actually, I'm alright with Ray staying in A-)
 
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Fireburn

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I'd like to propose that the following Pokemon are removed from the rankings: Salamence, Claydol, and Slaking.

Salamence is a worse Rayquaza in all respects save Intimidate, which doesn't help much against common stall mons such as TWave/Roar Groudon and Lugia. The main reason to use it would be in a Rayquaza + Salamence offensive core, but this doesn't work too well in practice due to the massive Ice weakness + they both struggle to kill Lugia even with their combined efforts who is a very common sight on most stall teams. MixRay + Lati and/or double Lati produce equal or better results in most cases if you want to go the double Dragon strategy, and as a standalone Pokemon Salamence is just not worth using over Rayquaza.

Claydol checks virtually nothing and loses to all the Spikers one-on-one which makes it a poor choice of Spinner. It can't even check Jirachi reliably like other Ground-types since its weak to Shadow Ball as well as Ice Punch and its Earthquake is too weak to KO Jirachi even with significant investment in Attack. It's only selling point is Explosion, but that alone doesn't justify a teamslot for Claydol imo. I've tried to make this mon work but there really isn't any kind of team it fits on well, it just doesn't bring enough to the table and its weaknesses are many.

Slaking is, in my opinion, an inferior Snorlax. Snorlax is a similarly threatening wallbreaker with solid coverage/power and access to Curse and Selfdestruct, while also bringing much more defensive utility to a team with its very high special bulk and useful defensive abilities in Immunity and Thick Fat. This makes it much easier to fit onto a team without the main baggage that prohibits Slaking from seeing too much usage (Truant). I have seen a few builds with Slaking, but I'm not convinced it isn't just a 100% worse Snorlax, and if it is then I don't see a reason why it should be ranked.
 
Fireburn I'm not sure we should remove Salamence just yet. Some sort of defensive WishMence (Toxic / Roar / Wish / Flamethrower|Protect perhaps?) may have some merit, although I'm not sure how much, if at all. It switches into Lax, Ho-Oh, non-Rock Slide Groudon, CB Deo-A, DD/CB Ray, and some lower tier stuff, phazes, spread status, passes Wishes, and isn't hazard bait thanks to strong fire coverage. I can't say if this set has any merit but it definitely seems more useful than Slaking or Claydol imo.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 76-90 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 55-66 (13.9 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Deoxys-A Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 102-121 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Groudon Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 52-62 (13.1 - 15.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

-1 252+ Atk Groudon Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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I mean C rank is kinda for those ultra borederline shitters that are cute to think about but you wouldn't actually run outside troll teams. It's why there's no point in subdivisions. That's how I saw it at least. All of the remarks regarding the mons are valid so if said descriptions don't qualify for C rank then that's all there really is to say.

oO
 

Fireburn

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I removed Claydol since most people seem to agree that it's bad.

I'll leave Salamence and Slaking for further discussion.
 
Regirock can prob go to C or B- rank, it is a cool Pokemon on Sun teams and the band set is one of the most reliable Ho-Oh switchins in Ubers. THrow around HP Rocks early game, has a powerful Explosion that can really help midgame if you want to take out your opponents Groudon. It also has superhuman physical bulk so its pretty hard to take out.

Also Shiftry for B, CB Shadow Balls are very strong, Explosion is nice too :) good weather sweeper on par with eggy imo
 

Minority

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Regirock is a cool way to deviate from standard sun stall and I agree it should be ranked.

Shiftry is in a bit of a worse situation. I don't think it's quite on par with Eggy because it either has to resort to a Choice Band or SD in order to dish out worthwhile damage. The CB set is easily locked into Shadow Ball, Brick Break, or Solarbeam and because teams almost always have Lati + normals it becomes guesswork to try and break anything down. This means that usually the only time Shiftry is going to put in work is to clean at the end of a match. It's usually a bit harder for a team to switch into Eggy under sun because of the combination of a non-locked very strong Solarbeam + Sleep + boom. Aside from Steels which can be roasted with HP Fire, most of the things that can take Solarbeam cannot take boom. SD Shiftry struggles to setup due to its frailty and fails to check Groudon, which is one of the best qualities of Eggy. I think the best place for Shiftry is on a sun offense with Magneton, but even then it's in competition with CB Deo-A as a physical cleaner.
 

shrang

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Yeah, Shiftry just lacks the initial power to be threatening, and has nothing to help it set up. Being faster than Eggy does help, but ehhh.
 

shrang

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K Sweep said it's OK if I necro this

Rayquaza A -> B+/B
ADV Rayquaza is a piece of shit. Without LO and physical Dragon STAB in this game, it can't deal damage whatsoever. This thing is hard pressed to KO pretty much any of the big threats and finds itself being OHKOed or T-Waved in return, which means it's kind of like Palkia in ORAS. To put it into perspective, I had an Adamant Ray (admittedly without CB) fail to OHKO a goddamn Kabutops with EQ and got OHKOed in return with Rock Slide in one game. Defensively it's not so good either. Main redeeming factor is that it gets ExtremeSpeed, but the only things you can revenge with that are 1) Deo-A and 2) SubSalac mons.

Basically, ADV Ray is a weak piece of shit that loses to more things than it beats and therefore is not worth your while.

Gengar B+ -> A-/A
Pretty much the only good spinblocker in the tier (I guess Dusclops isn't bad but eh), it can be hard to switch into if you haven't got a Ho-oh since nothing likes WoW. Thunder does quite strong in rain, and you can always blow up on something if you need to. I kind of feel it's better than something like Umbreon that's in its own tier, and it's definitely as good if not better than Magneton overall.

TTar B -> C+/C
Seriously what does thing even do? Apart from Sandstorm, it doesn't check anything of importance (apart from probably Ho-oh and CB Lugia, which still needs to look out for EQ). Rock Slide is weak as balls.

Tauros unranked -> B/B+
Tauros is actually a beast. Double Edge is probably the strongest attack of most Pokemon in this game, and Tauros has STAB on it, not to mention that really hot speed stat that lets it tie with Latis. It 2HKOs a lot of things while actually outspeeding them. Double Edge OHKOs Latios from 100% most of the time, which is really nice. You're walled by Steels I guess, but that's what Magneton is for.

Slaking C -> B+
This thing is really underappreciated. Losing a turn is not THAT big a deal in ADV since most setup sweepers can't that much until you've got a weakened team already, and Slaking excels more in the early game, especially in lead. Against the top leads, Slaking wins against most of them. Vs the common leads:
- Lati@s: Survive any attack and OHKO with Double Edge/Shadow Ball - at worst you trade a Slaking for Lati@s which is a pretty good trade
- Kyogre: Outspeed and OHKO with Double Edge
- Groudon: Lose to this but you can Hyper Beam it for >85% which means you'd be in a pretty damn good position if you're team is there to take advantage of a very weakened Groudon. (Or you can just Double Edge it for 70% and come back again, although a 30% Groudon is a lot easier to salvage than a 15% one)
- Mewtwo: Survive any attack apart from Boom and OHKO with Double Edge/Shadow Ball. Even if it blows up they haven't gained any advantage.
- Deo-A: Lose but it's a shit lead anyways
- Snorlax: OHKO with Double Edge
- CB Lugia: Deal >85% with Double Edge or OHKO with Hyper Beam while living Aeroblast
- What else is there?

Regirock unranked -> C/B-
Not spectacular, but a pretty good physical tank and can hit pretty hard

Aerodactyl unranked -> B
Kind of like Tauros tbh but doesn't have as strong a STAB move and is faster. This thing can clean pretty well late game with CB. Apart from Groudon, there isn't that much thing can't hurt.

DOWN WITH RAY!
 
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Minority

Numquam Vincar
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: A -> A-
This Pokemon doesn't easily fit on teams, but it deserves more credit than shrang gives it. Rayquaza's defensive niches are related to being anti-Salac Don, anti-Swift Swim, and anti-Deo-A. Mixed set is probably the best, but shrang is right in that the damage output isn't what newer gen Ubers players might expect from something with 150 / 150 offenses. If played correctly you can usually pseudo trade with something, which is a potential boon for offensive teams. CB set isn't too bad either, and those DEs actually lay a ton of damage to defensive Kyogre and Groudon. Putting this down in B is way too harsh, as is the comparison to ORAS Palkia, but it certainly doesn't belong in A rank with the likes of Ho-Oh.

: B+
I disagree with this Pokemon moving up. Spin blockers aren't even necessary for Deo-S / Deo-D teams, let alone your common defensive squad. Almost all spinners are Forry, which you can keep in line by just running Fire coverage in the appropriate places. Usually the only other spinner you'll see is Kabu, which Gengar doesn't want to switch into under rain. Main reasons you use this is for the Normal and Ground immunities, but the combination of status, Explosion, and special attacks is also decently effective at stallbreaking in Ubers. You can adapt its moveset to nail all the threats your team wants gone, but like mixed Rayquaza it lacks immediate power and can feel awkward with its moveset.

: B -> B-
Fits on next to no teams and is more of a nuisance than an actual defensive threat. It's outclassed as a Swift Swimmer so you end up running a defensive set with Rain Dish that can't do anything if it gets badly poisoned. Might fall victim to never being developed well rather than having innate flaws, but until then it should probably be ranked lower.

: B -> A-
Ranked far too low for a Steel-type of it's effectiveness. The Ground typing is a huge draw and allows it to fit very well on offensive rain teams. It's also a solid check to a few CB Pokemon like Snorlax and Lugia, and a secondary or tertiary Lati check. Several common CB mon checks (think Rock- and Steel-types) are scared of EQ while you can potentially trade via boom against defensive Kyogre or Groudon, two Pokemon most rain offenses want gone. It's simply better than the Steel-types in B+.

: B
Like mixed Rayquaza and Gengar it's not immediately obvious what the offensive and defensive draws are. The set I like the most is mixed, which allows you to bait out and punish a variety of threats since ttar's offensive stats aren't bad and it has an expansive movepool. Sets like T Wave + Rock Slide can also be annoying so long as you have the necessary support. It's defensive traits aren't extensive, but it is sort of a Rayquaza, Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Lati check, while sand neutralizes Leftovers, Thunder, and weather sweepers.

: B- -> B
This should probably be ranked in the same class as Deo-D. You're a bit worse at tanking stuff when it comes to laying Spikes, but the Speed and increased power can be annoying to opposing teams since you can run things like Knock Off, Ice Beam, and Fire Punch. Also can work as an emergency Salac Don check.

: B- -> C
Never seen this Pokemon do anything worthwhile or justify its spot on a team. Any non-gimmick set it has is largely outclassed by Mewtwo. Again it might be due to a lack of being developed, but until then it should be dropped.

: C -> B
Actually a legit Pokemon. It Wish passes effectively, especially to Steel-types, and switches into most CB Pokemon well thanks to Intimidate. Toxic + Fire Blast allows you to lay damage against most of the Pokemon you want to check and the additional Ground immunity can also be handy. A good support Pokemon for certain defensive teams.

: C -> B
Also sort of legit. Best set is max Speed with Double-Edge. Being faster than 252 Lati and everything below for a CB user of this power is very appealing, and unlike Deo-A it can actually take a hit and offers some superficial defensive synergy via a Ghost immunity. Shrang is right in that the forced switch turn isn't a huge problem as a single turn isn't as deadly when compared to newer gens, but it is something that builds still need to account for. Works fine in a lead position, but keeping it hidden can also be an advantage.

: Unranked -> C
Virtually always inferior to Snorlax or Slaking. I don't get how you justify this Pokemon when its only advantages over its competitors are 10 more base Speed (which doesn't really help since you still don't beat max Lati) and Intimidate (which doesn't help since you are fragile and don't want to switch into CB mons).

: Unranked -> B
Faster than Lati CB user, sort of a Ho-Oh check, and emergency check to Salac Don. Works best as a cleaner on a Spikes offense, although its use makes it harder to fit a Steel-type. Seems on par with the Deo Spikers, ttar, and Eggy.

: Unranked -> B-
Gives a way to slightly deviate from a standard sun stall or balance arrangement. Unfortunately it's worse off against Groudon and defensive Kyogre than several other CB users and still doesn't really want to switch into Ho-Oh.

: Unranked -> C
An interesting defensive cleric since it frees up Blissey. I've seen other people use different sets as well. Not convinced it's worthwhile to use, but putting it in C rank will let people know it's around.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Quick thoughts:

Rayquaza is A- minimum. Mixed set is good, poses a solid threat to most things and fills unique defensive niches. CB has fairly meaty Double-Edges and ESpeed utility. DD is less good since it needs some stuff gone (Groudon, fat Kyogre, Lugia) but can sweep pretty easily if those things are dead.

Gengar is fine where it is. Spinblocking is nice but not absolutely vital to success and most stall teams can work without a Ghost. Offensively it's a worse Mewtwo outside of its immunities and Wisp access. Also super fragile and can't really come in on things other than Normals/weak defensive Steels.

I don't care much for Ludicolo since Kyogre is more likely to run CM + Thunder, so I'm fine if it's bumped down.

I don't think Steelix is substantially better than Metagross or Registeel, but I could see putting it with them in B+. Thunder immunity is very nice but Steelix does have overall low Special Defense (not a good mono Lati check and no Ice resist bites) and is pretty much forced to run Choice Band to pose any sort of threat.

Tyranitar has Pursuit utility for Gar/CB Deo and soft checks birds + Latis. It poses a decent threat with Choice Band and can make use of SpAtks, Roar, and TWave.

Deo-S to B is fine. It's seen some use in UPL whereas I haven't seen any Deo-D iirc.

Mew should drop, it sucks and is usually not worth using over Mewtwo ever.

FatMence is actually pretty good in Ubers so B Salamence is fine.

Slaking to B is also fine, it's better than I gave it credit for originally.

Tauros is a crappy middle ground between Slaking and Snorlax. Low bulk even with Intimidate and the +10 Speed isn't hugely relevant. I don't support ranking it.

B Aero and B- Regirock are fine.

Not sold on Celebi. Doesn't seem to wall anything well other than Groudon w/o HP Ghost, doesn't do enough damage to stop Kyogre, easily defeated by strong SpAtkers with Ice Beam (most of them), Steels Spike freely on it...just feels like a waste of a teamslot. Blissey just finds more chances to use it since it actually walls a fair bit of stuff.
 

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