OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[vapicuno]

The ADV moderation team has decided to split the previous metagame discussion thread up into this thread and a creative sets/cores/concepts thread, which is more for exploratory ideas (of course, if you want to discuss thelinearcurve's teams, feel free to continue doing so in that thread). Basically, it's the same as before, except we now have a separate place for goofy/novel/exploratory stuff.

This is a place to discuss thoughts on a wide range of things ADV OU, from teambuilding to metagame trends to personal thoughts on the metagame's health, strengths & weaknesses, etc. Where discussions start to dominate and overshadow others in this thread (such as tiering changes), moderators may request the discussion to be held in a separate thread, but till then, anything relevant is fair game.

Note: No one-liners. Don't post basic questions that can be easily answered with minimal effort or ones that may belong in the Q&A thread. Don't post RMTs soliciting help - only share teams with the goal of making a contribution to discussion and metagame development.

Some prompts to get you started:

• What do you find strong in the current metagame?
• Any unique trends you've noticed?
• What are some nice anti-meta Pokemon right now?
• Do you enjoy the current metagame, and do you think it's in a good/balanced place? Why or why not?

Note that in anticipation of any discussion on Sleep in ADV OU, we request that such discussion take place in a separate thread.

 

[Ajjc]

Hi Vapicuno, do you think I got lucky on this victory? I thought I played it pretty well considering my team was 100% built by me and also I have no idea what I'm doing

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1203443833

 

[vapicuno]

No, I think you played well. I probably should have CM'd up to +6 instead of +5 given that I had enough turns for that. Even given that I got to +5, on T17 I probably should have Hydro'd there but I was trying to gain an advantage from scouting for status.

 

[SEA]

Hey y'all, with my elimination from CI play-ins, it's finally time for me to take a break from ADV for a little while. I want to share my teams with the community, maybe spark some ideas or something for some other people.

Team Dump Here

Do note, not all of these are 100% serious, complete, or viable. But, anything in there I figured was worth posting in some capacity.

Thanks to everybody who helped me with prep during my short tenure in CI and all of the other tours I've participated in, I cannot express my appreciation enough for y'all. You know who you are. Looking forward to watching the rest of the tour

 

[ed06288]

I still think Mew can be unbanned.

 

[Fakes]

me2

 

[ed06288]

Mew would probablize utilize Tbolt/Beam/Calm Mind/Softboiled. I imagine it to be on a power level similar to Jirachi and Celebi. It's access to every Tm/Hm is overrated because so many Tm's are irrelevant anyways.

 

[Melanie goes boating]

Ban t-wave tbh.

 

[asterat]

Not sure how broken Mew would be, a retest (or initial test? ) could be fun although I assume it would never happen, smogon tier leaders don't really take suggestions on this sort of stuff. I assume the best things Mew can do would be centered around explosion and will-o-wisp. Calm mind Mew just seems like a crappy Jirachi that is hit by sand and toxic. Something like stallbreaker Mew from more modern generations could be really strong, the bulk goes really far in ADV compared to something like BW. Mixed attacker with explosion could be pretty strong as well, probably brick break fire blast and something for waters. I don't think there's one set that would be particularly overpowered (maybe stallbreaker) but the wildcard aspect is really rough to handle. On the other hand ADV OU already has Gengar, Tyranitar, and Jirachi so it seems unpredictability doesn't necessarily equate to broken - I think a test could be really cool.

EDIT: does't get WoW in gen 3 im dumb. the strengths seem to be in strong CMer or explosion physical.

 

[Siglut]

rather than thinking of cm mew as a worse cm rachi, it's probably better to think of it as a better cm celebi, although just in terns if the max speed/max spatk sets it'd probably be better than both. The other cmers have to rely on shitty coverage moves and mew really doesn't.
+1 252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 358-422 (98.3 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Skarmory: 297-350 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Mew Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 331-390 (109.6 - 129.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Hidden Power Bug vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%)
+1 252 SpA Mew Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 260-306 (64.3 - 75.7%)
252+ SpA Tyranitar Crunch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 158-186 (46.3 - 54.5%)
252+ Atk Tyranitar Hidden Power Bug vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 173-204 (50.7 - 59.8%)
Also notable for a fast special attacker, this thing has access to boltbeam coverage, overheat, taunt, explosion, focus punch, and even hypnosis. This thing would be very likely to make cmspam absolutely overbearing.
Of course, it is disadvantaged vs other pixies because it doesn't have natural cure or a toxic and sand immunity, but it comes with the massive advantage of beating the pixie checks trying to switch in on it after a boost. And that's just as a cm sweeper, I have no doubt there is some other way to use mew that would be even crazier. If there's enough support for a test go ahead, but there really are more pressing things to do concerning the tier.

 

[ed06288]

The other cmers have to rely on shitty coverage moves and mew really doesn't.

That's not a bad way of looking at it, I hadn't thought of that. Although I feel like tyranitar and gengar also have great movepools.

 

[SEA]

+2 252 Atk Mew Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 338-398 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
can we not, please

 

[spookysocialist]

Mew is a spiker, a CBer, and offensive CMer, a stall breaker, a spinner, a swords dance sweeper, a status spreader, a sub puncher, a wall, a staller, and a million other things. And it is the best at half of those. It can have the perfect coverage to hit whatever 4 mons it's team hates the most. It sounds at the very least like it would be incredibly centralizing and unfun to play guessing games against.

 

[Deleted User 108547]

Mew is a spiker, a CBer, and offensive CMer, a stall breaker, a spinner, a swords dance sweeper, a status spreader, a sub puncher, a wall, a staller, and a million other things. And it is the best at half of those. It can have the perfect coverage to hit whatever 4 mons it's team hates the most. It sounds at the very least like it would be incredibly centralizing and unfun to play guessing games against.

Just to clarify. Mew doesn't have access to any sort of hazards or spin in Gen. 3 (no spikes nor rapid spin) although I'm agree in its insane movepool and variety.

On the other hand, I'd like to know who has brought up with this test scenario, Mew is a huge metagame shaker.

EDIT: Since I'm gonna take a long break from pokémon I'd like to share the only 3 decent teams I've created in ADV during last... 5 years maybe? I don't know but I'm an extremely lazy player who seldom create and plays with its own teams. Feel free to take, modify and change whatever you want.

Team #1

Team #2

Team #3

Team #4 [RS200 team]

 

[ed06288]

I would be flattered if a test un-ban was done because of my post, thanks for reading my posts. With all of the changes to baton pass and sand veil, I thought maybe a more liberal approach could be taken to the ban list. Of course, everyone has a different idea of what pokemon formats should look like and balancing things is difficult.

 

[Shamankingaursu]

I think Mew Would be a bit strong, stat wise is maybe not overwhelming but it has a really nice move pool and a ton of options. I think it be neat to see a toury with mew allowed just to get a feel how strong it was. but I do think it is a bit strong. I think it worth giving it a go though. You never know if you don't try it.

 

[eden]

i think i'd like to see mew too, it'd give bp teams a cool option to push games quicker(giving mixed offenses a mon to blow up skarm besides cb gross, that isn't particularly removable by dug's p great)

I also don't think it'd be as strong as stuff like cm jirachi due to not having a key toxic immunity

in the same vein latias would be mediocre too, there were a lot of proponents for freeing it but it seems to have been forgotten

 

[bdt2002]

Casual Past Gens OU player here. (Whenever I am on Showdown, at least.) I’ve been watching discussion on this metagame for a while now and believe it to be one of the more unique metagames out there: despite things like permanent Sand, Arena Trap Dugtrio, and Levitate Gengar coming into existence, the general consensus is that the meta is still balanced. Despite this, there seems to be some discussion on possibly unbanning Mew at the moment, and even though I’m far from a hardcore player, I’d like to give my input on why Mew should stay banned



Mew is an extremely versatile Psychic-Type with 100 in every base stat and Synchronize for its Ability. In a sense, Mew could fill up a slot on any type of team without breaking a sweat for these reasons. Need an extra Pokémon for your 3-piece Baton Pass core? Mew. Need a bulky set-up sweeper who can transfer status with its Ability to help balance out your overly defensive stall team? Mew. Need a source of speed control for your bulky offense builds? Mew. This little thing can do it all, and do it all well. 100 in a base stat was still considered excellent back in ADV, and it also allows Mew to join the extremely important 100 Speed tier.

The problem with Mew isn’t that it is inherently broken. After all, four moveslot syndrome absolutely murders this Pokémon. The problem is that in a defensively focused Singles format, Mew’s unrivaled versatility would prompt so many players to use it to plug up holes their teams previously had. This wouldn’t be a problem if each player knew what kind of team an opposing Mew player was running, because without Team Preview, it becomes a game of luck as to whether or not Mew has the correct set to beat you. Defenses of 100/100/100 make playing around an incorrect Mew set prediction tricky and allow the Mew player to capitalize on the opponent’s mistake that they had absolutely no way of guessing. SkarmBliss, meet Stallbreaker Mew. Hyper offense? Not a problem! Dug/Mag trap core? How does a nasty surprise of physical defense investment and HP Ground sound?

TLDR; keep Mew banned because you have no way to properly scout an opponent’s chosen Mew set in advance and can punish players for a wrong or unlucky guess with minimal effort. It’s almost TOO versatile, if you think about it.

I saw another post mention Latias, and if anyone wants my opinion on that or my personal most worrisome mon in the tier right now, please feel free to reach out! :)

 

[dk]

The problem with Mew isn’t that it is inherently broken. After all, four moveslot syndrome absolutely murders this Pokémon. The problem is that in a defensively focused Singles format, Mew’s unrivaled versatility would prompt so many players to use it to plug up holes their teams previously had.

this sounds like an argument for mew's unbanning if anything.

though, i'm not entirely sure how flexible mew would be as a superglue, at least defensively, given that it's a spikes vulnerable, not sand immune, pursuit-weak mono-psychic type (not the best mono typing defensively); more offensive structures would prefer pivots that don't dole out free turns by being forced to click recover, often as a consequence of spikes/sand beating them down (hence why milo is often relegated to slower styles with spinners). blissey gets away with it a lot because its so fat and can afford not clicking soft right after pivoting into a tbolt or whatever depending on the circumstances, but yeah.

from my perspective, banning/unbanning should solely concern the poke's impact on a tier's competitiveness. if it doesn't have any impact on how matchup-oriented a tier is or makes it less matchup based (think about what swampert does for the tier with its defensive utility and splashability), then it's a good part of it. if it makes teambuilding significantly harder because counterplay to it is so limited or shaky, it's a bad addition. within reason, obviously; i'm not a proponent of stripping everything down to the barest of bones and almost removing teambuilding as a component of the game.

versatility is certainly a common feature of really good mons but in the case of mew i'm not sure how much of a point it is towards it being uber. oras hoopa was absurd because misreading/misguessing the set could lead to you losing an entire mon as a result, but mew is probably too knecapped by its middling 100atk/100spatk to replicate the 'versatile breaker' issue. misreading mew being bp could be an issue, but we already have a number of offensively potent bpers (celebi being decently versatile, as it can run subpass, cm pass, or sd pass and they're all good and viable) so i'm inclined to armchair that mew being similar is whatever.

i'm not entirely sure how i feel about mew to be honest but i wanted to respond to some of those points.

edit: also ftr mew doesn't get wisp in adv so not sure what the stallbreaker set would run. taunt tox flame soft?

 

[eden]

I actually think mew and latias would be incredibly mediocre, what does mew bring to the table defensively? Offensively it's nothing special either, it doesn't have the typing that makes stuff like jira so much better

Latias is also incredibly overrated in theorymon, we have had adv ou plus latias tours before where it was very underwhelming, I definitely wouldn't mind this mon being allowed in some fun tours so we get a feel for how middling it is

I want to draw some other parallels to mons in ubers that would be pretty mediocre in ou, such
as dropping gsc ho-oh to ou, and ill bet there are many other similar mons that are not even considered to be dropped to ou due to tradition

Maybe mew and latias would be A- mons?

 

[bdt2002]

this sounds like an argument for mew's unbanning if anything.

though, i'm not entirely sure how flexible mew would be as a superglue, at least defensively, given that it's a spikes vulnerable, not sand immune, pursuit-weak mono-psychic type (not the best mono typing defensively); more offensive structures would prefer pivots that don't dole out free turns by being forced to click recover, often as a consequence of spikes/sand beating them down (hence why milo is often relegated to slower styles with spinners). blissey gets away with it a lot because its so fat and can afford not clicking soft right after pivoting into a tbolt or whatever depending on the circumstances, but yeah.

from my perspective, banning/unbanning should solely concern the poke's impact on a tier's competitiveness. if it doesn't have any impact on how matchup-oriented a tier is or makes it less matchup based (think about what swampert does for the tier with its defensive utility and splashability), then it's a good part of it. if it makes teambuilding significantly harder because counterplay to it is so limited or shaky, it's a bad addition. within reason, obviously; i'm not a proponent of stripping everything down to the barest of bones and almost removing teambuilding as a component of the game.

versatility is certainly a common feature of really good mons but in the case of mew i'm not sure how much of a point it is towards it being uber. oras hoopa was absurd because misreading/misguessing the set could lead to you losing an entire mon as a result, but mew is probably too knecapped by its middling 100atk/100spatk to replicate the 'versatile breaker' issue. misreading mew being bp could be an issue, but we already have a number of offensively potent bpers (celebi being decently versatile, as it can run subpass, cm pass, or sd pass and they're all good and viable) so i'm inclined to armchair that mew being similar is whatever.

i'm not entirely sure how i feel about mew to be honest but i wanted to respond to some of those points.

edit: also ftr mew doesn't get wisp in adv so not sure what the stallbreaker set would run. taunt tox flame soft?

These are all very valid points, but basically what I was trying to get at here was that Mew’s versatility is a good thing in theory. Personally, I’m all for seeing ADV OU have some changes, and Mew certainly isn’t as broken as some other Ubers. But if every battle in ADV OU becomes “guess the Mew set right or lose your Pokémon trying”, I feel like people who get those guesses wrong would have a much lower level of interest in the metagame in the long run.

But that’s the beauty of a suspect test. I’ve tossed in my two cents worth on Mew’s potential, but testing it could give a definitive answer on whether or not Mew’s mind games are healthy or unhealthy.

One last note on Stallbreaker Mew: this would have to be tested too, but 252 HP & 252+ Speed Mew with those four moves you mentioned could be a little tricky to play around...

 

[asterat]

Latias seems really strong on paper, potentially great on TSS as something fast, strong, recovery, roar, wish, etc. Destroyed by status though, so who knows? Latias honestly seems (in theory, at least to me) to be less strong than Mew, there isn't as much of a guessing game. If it wasn't broken in DPP, whose to say it's not reasonable in ADV? This is without specs, scarf, life orb, draco meteor, etc. CM seems like it would be very difficult to actually get to work, too vulnerable to status. It doesn't have the same bag of tricks something like Jirachi does in between 404 HP subs, wide movepool, sand immunity, and serene grace fishing. Maybe something like Recover/Roar/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt? Plenty of stuff in OU can handle that, although could be deadly with spikes down. It seems really hurt by the prevalence of sand, metagross, and toxic. Even getting burned from something like Moltres would force it to recover constantly.

 

[eden]

Yeah I agree man, mew and latias being timered really limits their presence in the meta, I think latias' best fit playstyle in dual trap is quite mediocre too, maybe disaster area was on to something?

There have been some really insightful posts on these mons in ou, I wanna see what you guys consider to be optimal structures for mew and latias?

 

[Shamankingaursu]

Mew Can't Baton Pass I believe, that not be an issue. That being said, Mew maybe with its versatility still may be a problem. 100 Stats are nothing to sneeze at. Sure, it not gonna hit as hard as some mons but the versality it provides could be tough. Hence, it be nice to see how it interacts with other mons. As for Latias. That one is I think a lot more plausible. It has a really strong move set, good traits for the meta (With Levitate). But crtically, it not as versatile as Mew. Mew can be a guessing game, but Latias would prob not as many sets. I image it have like Calm Mind, Offensive, Wish Support, and maybe a few other ideas. Dragon Claw, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Surf, Hp Grass. It would offensivly a really big threat I feel. Its speed tier would also be insane. Gengar would take a massive hit with thing around I feel like. Could act like a Bulker Starmie, that is not trapped by dug but cannot outspeed, Gengar or Starmie.

Also unlike Mew, Latias is unbanned in gen 4. Obviously Gen 4 power is a lot different and in that Tier, Latias is what? Top 3 best Pokémon? But it has scarf, specs, Draco meter to help it along. Of course it also does not have to deal with toxic spikes so it is a trade right? Mew is banned in gen 4 ou, so it kind of odd to say it becomes unbanned in gen 3 ou. Of course, Mew got a lot of nice tools in gen 4 so its different but same with Latias. Idk, I'm actually interested maybe more in a Latias Suspect test then a Mew Suspect Test. Cause I feel like Latias has a more definable strengths and weakness where a mew can be anything and that can be really tough to deal with. Latias is a lot easier to digest what it will and will not be.

That being said, Anything that benefits Baton Pass Chains should not be unbanned. Those teams are annoying enough. I don't think either help baton pass chains that much (Maybe as Receivers that could be brutal but neither has Baton Pass I think at least in this gen). Though that discussion for another day. I think both Pokémon def deserve a look into them and some testing. I think it would at the very least be a fun experiment. Right now though on the stance, Mew might be a bit much but Latias could fit but prob would be a top 3-5 pokemon in the tier.

 

[Colteor]

I really don't think Mew or Latias should be unbanned, although rather than theorymoning to tell you why I'd like to ask if someone would make a tournament with one of them unbanned, since if we unban both for the tour it doesn't give as clear an idea on if they're broken. I'd host the tour myself but I don't have a badge and want to play in said tour, so I couldn't make act calls.