Lower Tiers ADV NU Metagame Discussion.

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ADV NU Metagame Discussion

Yo, so I realized a lot of other tiers had general metagame discussions but not ADV Nu. Recently me and some other Adv players have been getting into Nu and I thought it would be nice if we had a place for everyone to post findings and just a general place of discussion for viable pokes, how to use them, etc. ADV NU is a tier with many strategies such as spikes offense, rain and sun teams, and even stall teams. Spikes play a huge part in this metagame due to there being a lack of spinners bar Hitmonchan (and wartortle but we don't talk about it). This tier also has many resources which are good places to start which are as follows.

Resources:
Nu Old Gen Hub-Nu Old Gens Hub
ADV NU Viability Rankings-ADV NU Viability Rankings
 
Aight to get some discussion started let's talk about BP! I had a few chats with various people a couple years back when I was spamming bp in some adv nu tour, the consensus on the archetype was fairly divided with a lot of decent arguments on either side of it being broken cheese or matchup fish cheese, I'm personally of the opinion that it is overall very solid and has a strong ability to outplay it's common counters. However I no longer feel that it is as absurd and banworthy as I did those couple years ago. I lost a majority of my teams when I recently moved house so I can't quite provide an exact copy of the sort of team I was playing but it looked something like this:
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???
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Ariados functioning as a trap passer was something I was experimenting with at the time but it felt fairly weak and I'm sure theres a better mon for the role. Clampearl feels very powerful as a receiver but there are various others that work equally as well.

Any thoughts on the archetype ADV familia?
 
So baton pass is definitely a source of controversy in the tier in the past. It is also worth noting Octillery as a reciever and Ledian as a screen setter/agility passer for baton pass teams. I think baton pass teams are quite good in the metagame due to their ability to deal with some of their counters and good matchups vs bulkier teams. However they also seem to have trouble setting up vs more offensive teams, due to these kinds of teams often having lead Glalie with taunt, and exploders in Wailord/Haunter/Metang. Same with more weather centric teams. Full baton pass is a very interesting part of the tier and I think is way less troublesome then its counterpart in the Overused tier.
 
:rs/Venomoth: :rs/Delcatty: :rs/mawile: :rs/Ledian: :rs/Plusle: :rs/Octillery:

This is the Baton Pass team that’s being used that I’ve seen used in a few games recently. Venomoth to Sleep early game and pass Sub, Delcatty to pass Calm Mind and spread para with Thunder Wave, Mawile to pass Iron Defense and Intimidate Pokemon, Ledian to setup screens and pass Agility, and finally Octillery as the BP recipient which works due to Suction Cups blocking Roar. Plusle is there as a second CM pass recipient I’m pretty sure.
 
happy to see the discussion thread up, on the topic of "underrated mons"

Wanted to talk about "the bug" in NU, I think Shedinja has some good properties like hardsitting on offensive threats like Metang and Huntail, to some extent defensive pokemon like Wailord as well. main niche comes from wonder guard allowing it to do this job, also has some good properties like being a bp pivot and spreading statuses with toxic.

this mon can be pretty difficult to build around due to how prediction heavy it is (which totally isn't a bad thing imo but too heavy), but stray hidden powers, status and the presence of spikes is a problem. 1/1 HP and having to deal with listed problems is very annoying. What you wall is pretty limited to some extent too, set scouting and constant spike removal (bulky rapid spin chan), is impactful on how you play in the long run.

it's hard to rely on this as your only way to hard wall specific mons when you have multiple other options with more dominant mons as counterplay to them, it has only a couple positive traits compared to the more dominant ghosts like Haunter and Sableye. I certainly think this is an interesting mon though, but its flaws are too much to handle personally.

Edited for clarification
 

Bughouse

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I believe Shedinja is 100% unviable as spikes are far easier to set than remove. Hitmonchan has no reliable way to spin on Sableye short of like... Bulk Up EQ? And that doesn't even really work since Sableye's SToss 3HKOs Chan without a ton of HP investment (given that you're switching it into Spikes?)

I've played this tier off and on for years and have never seen one used viably.

I also think Baton Pass is unhealthy in that it does come close to autowinning against some builds, but all in all I've never minded it much. It is also itself close to an auto loss in some other matchups and it's not too hard to slap one of those mons onto any team you're making to ensure you're protected.
 
Seconding bughouse here, I tried quite hard to make shed work in the past because it's a really interesting mon but it is just garbage. Every team can very reliably spike as well as the everpresent status in the tier due to the lack of other chip. It's a cool mon really but just not worth playing due to every common build negating it so simply.
 
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While I do think shed is pretty trash I do actually want to use this as an opportunity to talk about another shit mon that should always be used with shed.

Wartortle @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Rest
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight

Wartortle is currently unranked and considered unviable in the metagame but I think it has a niche on shedinja stall due to its access to foresight rapid spin. This allows it to spin vs sableye which hitmonchan never can. Besides this however, Wartortle is an inferior water in almost every way when compared to Wailord, Kingler, Pelliper, Huntail, etc. Its speed tier is also worth noting as it is somewhat fast for a defensive pokemon. Ev wise, 76 sp def evs allows it to survive hp electric from wailord while 96 does the same from huntail. The rest of its evs should go in defense and always max hp. While wartortle is far from the best water type in Nu, I do believe it has a niche in the tier especially when partnered with shedinja.
 
:rs/Venomoth: :rs/Delcatty: :rs/mawile: :rs/Ledian: :rs/Plusle: :rs/Octillery:

This is the Baton Pass team that’s being used that I’ve seen used in a few games recently. Venomoth to Sleep early game and pass Sub, Delcatty to pass Calm Mind and spread para with Thunder Wave, Mawile to pass Iron Defense and Intimidate Pokemon, Ledian to setup screens and pass Agility, and finally Octillery as the BP recipient which works due to Suction Cups blocking Roar. Plusle is there as a second CM pass recipient I’m pretty sure.
One thing is for certain, Octillery is the best recipient of boosts in the tier. Having a pokemon that's immune to phasing moves is too good to pass up.
 
By the way, I've noticed that sub seed is really potent in this tier along with toxic. Nothing can take both leech and toxic besides Rosella, Swalot, and NFE's like Ivysaur, Gloom, and Tentacool. Inviting in Roselia is pretty bad though, but one sub seeder does threaten Roselia. Tropius. I played against someone using sub seed Tropius on ladder, and it totally ravaged my team. I understand that guts mons like Raticate and Machoke actually appreciate getting hit with toxic, but they don't appreciate leech seed. Leech seed makes pivoting around these threats easier. An issue with Tropius though is that so many mons threaten it with common moves, it is hard to pick and choose when to sub. What are your thoughts? Maybe sub seed Grovyle for extra speed? I'm relatively new to the tier, but I'm enjoying it quite a lot.
 

Oglemi

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By the way, I've noticed that sub seed is really potent in this tier along with toxic. Nothing can take both leech and toxic besides Rosella, Swalot, and NFE's like Ivysaur, Gloom, and Tentacool. Inviting in Roselia is pretty bad though, but one sub seeder does threaten Roselia. Tropius. I played against someone using sub seed Tropius on ladder, and it totally ravaged my team. I understand that guts mons like Raticate and Machoke actually appreciate getting hit with toxic, but they don't appreciate leech seed. Leech seed makes pivoting around these threats easier. An issue with Tropius though is that so many mons threaten it with common moves, it is hard to pick and choose when to sub. What are your thoughts? Maybe sub seed Grovyle for extra speed? I'm relatively new to the tier, but I'm enjoying it quite a lot.
SubSeed was always one of those things that I had considered using as a wincon in some way, but I could never justify it because like you said, Roselia is near omnipresent, and if they aren't using Rose they're likely using sun Bell which can at worst just trade with the SubSeeder. However, I do think it has merit on Tropius and as a 4th move on Grovyle since its main set is Sub + 3 attacks anyway and you could catch people off guard.

Tropius is overall an odd case in this tier. Theorymonning dictates that it should be bad, but stat-wise and in-game it's actually always performed well. I think it's just very slightly too matchup and prediction-reliant to see normal usage. Always was something I wanted to explore more in tournament play and stuff, hopefully we see more of it in upcoming NUPLs, etc.
 
Speaking of baton pass, it has now been fully banned as of AdvPl, what are your opinions on this? I believe dry pass should still be allowed in the tier because completely banning of baton pass ruins legitamate pokemon in the tier such as Flareon, Mawile, and the rarer bp Plusle. The upcoming AdvPL will be an exciting phase for the metagame as it has been untouched for a while now. Excited to see what comes next for this tier!
 

Bughouse

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dry pass or even more basic pass strats from Mawile passing a sub or SD or whatever are totally fine.
There is some concern about something like Flareon passing to a Diglett as an opponent's Flareon comes in to eat the Fire move, but that's an issue of Diglett, not an issue of Baton Pass.
 
Completely banning baton pass is a mistake. Using baton pass on flareon to trap other flareon is just smart play. Same with using baton pass with something like venomoth as a metang or flareon comes in. Trapping is fine in OU. Zapdos baits in celebi turn 1, you baton pass to dug. I don't understand how that dynamic is a bad thing. Just means you have to play smarter.
 
A good handful of mons in the tier have access to haze. Haunter (who always has 2 free moveslots), Murkow, Seviper, Octillery, Golbat, Arbok, Masquerain, Kingler, Seaking, and Wartortle. This isn't ADV OU where the only good haze users are Vaporeon and Weezing, this tier has much better tools to counter BP chains. With proper prediction, roar mons can stop the chain too (unless they go hard into Octillery). At the very least, that cuts the boost chain where it stands. The only baton pass users with taunt are Aipom and Mawile. I hardly ever see Aipom because of its frailty. Mawile is too slow to get off a taunt on every haze user I mentioned above besides uninvested Octillery. We need to let the team style stand, and adapt.
 
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While I do think shed is pretty trash I do actually want to use this as an opportunity to talk about another shit mon that should always be used with shed.

Wartortle @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Rest
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight

Wartortle is currently unranked and considered unviable in the metagame but I think it has a niche on shedinja stall due to its access to foresight rapid spin. This allows it to spin vs sableye which hitmonchan never can. Besides this however, Wartortle is an inferior water in almost every way when compared to Wailord, Kingler, Pelliper, Huntail, etc. Its speed tier is also worth noting as it is somewhat fast for a defensive pokemon. Ev wise, 76 sp def evs allows it to survive hp electric from wailord while 96 does the same from huntail. The rest of its evs should go in defense and always max hp. While wartortle is far from the best water type in Nu, I do believe it has a niche in the tier especially when partnered with shedinja.
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I do think Wartortle has a place on stall as an incredibly reliable Metang check. On non-stall, he tends to be too passive, and gets outclassed by other waters (as you said). I think that your move set is perfect for accomplishing what Wartortle wants to, I use the same set (though I have been running max defense bold). Rest is great with Aromatherapy support, which is essential to fit on stall. I've never built a stall team using Shedinja, but I'm sure his anti-rain properties make him usable with support. Most rain sweepers (and water types in general) run water STAB, Ice Beam, HP Electric or Grass, and Rain Dance or some other filler. Shedinja entirely walls those moves. But, a stall team can also run more reliable rain checks like a fat SpDef Lickitung, Roselia, Bellossom, or their own SpDef water type.

I'd like to talk about Shedinja some more. Going off of his ability to wall offensive variants of every water type Pokemon in the tier, maybe he can be an effective hit-and-run pokemon. Practically every other Wailord check is a bulky grass or water that attacks from the special side. Physical offense teams don't have a fun time switching into Wailord. Maybe Shedinja can provide valuable defensive utility while still hitting like a truck.
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Shedinja @ Choice Band
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Silver Wind
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Baton Pass

Baton Pass is nice paired with Diglett in particular because Shedinja draws in fire and rock types. Physical offense teams don't give Roselia or Cacturne much room to breathe, and they can slot Hitmonchan fairly easily, so I do not think spikes inhibit Shedinja much here. Toxic variants of water types would give the set trouble, so Shedinja shouldn't be the team's only water check.

What are your thoughts?
 
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View attachment 352123
I do think Wartortle has a place on stall as an incredibly reliable Metang check. On non-stall, he tends to be too passive, and gets outclassed by other waters (as you said). I think that your move set is perfect for accomplishing what Wartortle wants to, I use the same set (though I have been running max defense bold). Rest is great with Aromatherapy support, which is essential to fit on stall. I've never built a stall team using Shedinja, but I'm sure his anti-rain properties make him usable with support. Most rain sweepers (and water types in general) run water STAB, Ice Beam, HP Electric or Grass, and Rain Dance or some other filler. Shedinja entirely walls those moves. But, a stall team can also run more reliable rain checks like a fat SpDef Lickitung, Roselia, Bellossom, or their own SpDef water type.

I'd like to talk about Shedinja some more. Going off of his ability to wall offensive variants of every water type Pokemon in the tier, maybe he can be an effective hit-and-run pokemon. Practically every other Wailord check is a bulky grass or water that attacks from the special side. Physical offense teams don't have a fun time switching into Wailord. Maybe Shedinja can provide valuable defensive utility while still hitting like a truck.
View attachment 352122
Shedinja @ Choice Band
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Silver Wind
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Baton Pass

Baton Pass is nice paired with Diglett in particular because Shedinja draws in fire and rock types. Physical offense teams don't give Roselia or Cacturne much room to breathe, and they can slot Hitmonchan fairly easily, so I do not think spikes inhibit Shedinja much here. Toxic variants of water types would give the set trouble, so Shedinja shouldn't be the team's only water check.

What are your thoughts?
Isn't baton pass banned?
 
Hello!
Not sure if this is the right place for this kind of a post but I while trying to complete my dream of having all Emerald native Pokemon shiny,flawless (via the wonders of RNG manip of course) and with competitive sets I step upon Luvdisc and realised that in the DPP metagame it had a set consisting of Toxic/Sweet Kiss/Attract and Protect that wasn't mentioned in the ADV section. Is there any reason for this? I mean Luvdisc sucks anyway so having a gimmicky set like this one and maybe, just maybe try HAX your opponent might sound good. Is there something in ADV environment that holds this set back and makes it somewhat viable in DPP?

Thank you!
 
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Oglemi

Borf
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Hello!
Not sure if this is the right place for this kind of a post but I while trying to complete my dream of having all Emerald native Pokemon shiny,flawless (via the wonders of RNG manip of course) and with competitive sets I step upon Luvdisc and realised that in the DPP metagame it had a set consisting of Toxic/Sweet Kiss/Attract and Protect that wasn't mentioned in the ADV section. Is there any reason for this? I mean Luvdisc sucks anyway so having a gimmicky set like this one and maybe, just maybe try HAX your opponent might sound good. Is there something in ADV environment that holds this set back and makes it somewhat viable in DPP?

Thank you!
Luvdisc is a joke pokemon so the analyses just consist of whatever the author felt like including at the time
 
Hello!
Not sure if this is the right place for this kind of a post but I while trying to complete my dream of having all Emerald native Pokemon shiny,flawless (via the wonders of RNG manip of course) and with competitive sets I step upon Luvdisc and realised that in the DPP metagame it had a set consisting of Toxic/Sweet Kiss/Attract and Protect that wasn't mentioned in the ADV section. Is there any reason for this? I mean Luvdisc sucks anyway so having a gimmicky set like this one and maybe, just maybe try HAX your opponent might sound good. Is there something in ADV environment that holds this set back and makes it somewhat viable in DPP?

Thank you!
Nothing in particular makes the set worse in ADV than in DPP. If you really want to take advantage of hax in the ADV NU environment you're better off using something like Serene Grace Dunsparce or Togetic. Paralysis in general is easy to spread and fun to abuse. Going back to Luvdisc, Sweet Kiss isn't even the best confusion move available with its 75% accuracy. Far better mons like Golbat and Haunter have access to the 100% accurate Confuse Ray (though they generally slot more useful moves). For Luvdisc in general, their base 97 speed tier is excellent. They would be a decent rain lead if their move pool wasn't so incredibly shallow. I've looked into Luvdisc and found it can't do much besides set rain and support its teammates with Safeguard or Mud Sport. As a rain lead, Haunter and Voltorb are preferable because they can keep up offensive tempo with Explosion. Still a fun joke mon to mess around with.
 
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Nothing in particular makes the set worse in ADV than in DPP. If you really want to take advantage of hax in the ADV NU environment you're better off using something like Serene Grace Dunsparce or Togetic. Paralysis in general is easy to spread and fun to abuse. Going back to Luvdisc, Sweet Kiss isn't even the best confusion move available with its 75% accuracy. Far better mons like Golbat and Haunter have access to the 100% accurate Confuse Ray (though they generally slot more useful moves). For Luvdisc in general, their base 97 speed tier is excellent. They would be a decent rain lead if their move pool wasn't so incredibly shallow. I've looked into Luvdisc and found it can't do much besides set rain and support its teammates with Safeguard or Mud Sport. As a rain lead, Haunter and Voltorb are preferable because they can keep up offensive tempo with Explosion. Still a fun joke mon to mess around with.
Yeah I totally understand that there are better mons for the job. What I am trying to figure out is whether the set can be a viable option if someone wants to go this way and use Luvdisc nevertheless. As far as I am concerned it can work in the ADV NU metagame even though it is inferior to the Rain Dance set and still outclassed by the likes of Golbat etc as an annoyer.
 
Yeah I totally understand that there are better mons for the job. What I am trying to figure out is whether the set can be a viable option if someone wants to go this way and use Luvdisc nevertheless. As far as I am concerned it can work in the ADV NU metagame even though it is inferior to the Rain Dance set and still outclassed by the likes of Golbat etc as an annoyer.
I think building around annoyer Luvdisc would be difficult. Try it, maybe they're usable. Needs spikes support to enhance its annoyance, spread chip when the opponent runs away from confusion or pivots into a steel or poison to eat Toxic. I'd consider running one attacking move just so you can finish off an opponent at low health. Surf is probably the most clear option. Surf, Toxic, Protect, Sweet Kiss/ Attract.
Luvdisc doesn't have too many points of entry. Really just Ice Beam or Surf from defensive wailord, Meteor Mash from Metang. You should probably invest generously in Luvdisc's defenses for this set. I gave them just enough special attack to 3 hit KO lefties Haunter with Surf (24 EV's). Also gave them just enough to outrun Plusle/ Haunter (240+ EV's). Rest can go into defenses.
If you'd rather give Luvdisc a lot of special attack investment, I think they should run Swagger over Sweet Kiss. After their initial entry, they wouldn't be able to handle another unboosted hit. The +2 attack would just serve to hurt the opponent more if they happen to hit themself in confusion.
 
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DnB

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Yeah I totally understand that there are better mons for the job. What I am trying to figure out is whether the set can be a viable option if someone wants to go this way and use Luvdisc nevertheless. As far as I am concerned it can work in the ADV NU metagame even though it is inferior to the Rain Dance set and still outclassed by the likes of Golbat etc as an annoyer.
if u want to use luvdisc in adv, you should try ADV ZU :)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zu-old-gens-hub.3646944/post-8034682

luvdisc isnt great there either, but it has some niches, f.e. stalling out swift swim users and in general just being annoying with sub + protect + toxic, thanks to its great speed tier, but sadly, if it comes to any higher tiers, there is simply no niche for luvdisc, so i think adv zu is the closest you will get
 

Gangsta Spongebob

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if u want to use luvdisc in adv, you should try ADV ZU :)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zu-old-gens-hub.3646944/post-8034682

luvdisc isnt great there either, but it has some niches, f.e. stalling out swift swim users and in general just being annoying with sub + protect + toxic, thanks to its great speed tier, but sadly, if it comes to any higher tiers, there is simply no niche for luvdisc, so i think adv zu is the closest you will get
Bless you for mentioning the epicest tier in all of Pokemon.

Additionally, apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this, but what is everyone's thoughts on Trapping with Diglett? I recall seeing more than a few on Ladder when ADV NU was on the ROA spotlight, and it was interesting playing with a mechanic banned in more modern tiers.

Is it at all considered broken? From my experience I'd say a hard no, but due to my general inexperience I'd like to hear about what everyone thinks about it and whats the best way to prepare for it on the Builder.
 

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