This is the companion thread to the ADV Baton Pass suspect test in Policy Review. You can use this thread for discussion if you don't have PR access. Identification for ladder qualifiers can also be posted here.
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Gen 3 ADV Baton Pass Suspect (again)
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I'll have even more things to say later I'm sure, but I wanted to put this extensive and thorough statement out.
I felt the need first to draw some attention to the first match posted in the policy review thread and make some comments upon the points it flags:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-577063
At this point we all know how Meadpass works, and it seems to be the primary culprit for this suspect test, so we'll attend to that. But this replay is from August 21st, and it's clear from the plays that EeveetoTheN00b knew neither what he was dealing with nor for that matter how to handle it. And yet while he made several mistakes in hindsight, he actually possessed the mons and tools necessary to disrupt the chain. Had he been more familiar with the team, and made one or two small but om-meta changes to his team, a win was entirely within the realm of possibility.
One of the complaints about Meadpass is the difficulty in recognizing it as such before it is too late. Yet here, it was probable at Turn 3, and more or less unmistakeable by Turn 4, at which point Eeveeto had already set himself up nicely for handling it.
His switch to Claydol following Zapdos' entrance put him in one of the best possible positions against it considering his team, assuming it has the standard Psychic, EQ, Explosion set. With the right call, he could have taken out one of the mons with an Explosion, and made the chain more manageable if not destroy it completely. But instead of continuously applying pressure to Zapdos with Psychic, he Rapid Spins on Turn 6 and gave the momentum back to ABR. The removal of Spikes was either negligible or entirely irrelevant in terms of helping against this team, so Rapid Spin there was essentially a wasted turn.
Nevertheless, none of the three passers have an attack, so the subsequent pass to Vaporeon was not a game-ender for Eeveeto. I won't follow the line of what-ifs had he kept Claydol in, but his switch to Magneton put him back on solid footing. But he made his second biggest mistake at Turn 9 in using Hidden Power rather than Thunderbolt, which would have broken the Substitute at least; the only way to excuse it would be if it was a predicted pass to a Marowak, using HP Grass. Nevertheless, the failure to break Sub there once again put him on the backfoot.
Yet it so happens that not only did he have a Gyarados, but he switches to it immediately after this. As we and ABR knew, Gyarados has access to both Taunt and Roar, the former of which is not at all a novelty or niche choice, and has plenty of utility against teams of all sort not merely limited to Baton Pass. As soon as ABR sees it, he Taunts it, halting Eeveeto's Dragon Dance; satisfied that Taunt was not a factor, he then passes back to Vaporeon. It was at this point that Eeveeto, had he had Taunt, could have Taunted the Vaporeon and momentarily disrupted the chain, giving him a window of opportunity to break it.
From there, the match could have gone any number of ways, with several paths for an Eeveeto victory, but regardless at Turn 14, we would have had a helpless Vaporeon with 2x speed, 2x defense, and a CM boost on it---a bad predicament still, but not impossible to win from. I won't enumerate all the ways, but I will say that they are all connected by, again, Eeveeto making the correct calls at the correct times.
Meadpass is beaten primarily by applying brute force pressure until the user is forced to pass prematurely, or otherwise presents an opening on one of the passers. Eeveeto seems to have had at least two Explosion users, as well as perhaps a Twave user in Magneton, which is enough to cripple or destroy the chain. And there is nothing special about Eeveeto's team; it's not tailormade to beat Baton Pass, it is a regular team which just so happens to be capable of doing so.
Another complaint with Meadpass and Baton Pass teams in general is the heavy need for prediction---that playing against it is a "guessing game" where you win or lose on the right or wrong calls of what the foe will do. If I am accurately presenting this complaint, then I fail to see how BP is fundementally different as a strategy in this game of Pokemon from any other. The entire game is founded upon predicting what your opponent will do, and there is almost nothing about Baton Pass or Meadpass that circumvents this nature of the game. It, just like any other strategy, will crumble if you have the right tools and use them at the right time---and you will probably lose if you don't.
The difference with Meadpass of course (and what it shares with Mr. Mime and Ingrain strats) is the resistance to phazing, the simplest and most reliable and widespread way in general to break BP chains. This forces most opponents into a brute force approach where they must hope to apply the correct powerful moves to take out at least one of the passers before the boosts become insurmountable; but an additional noteworthy feature is its ability to prevent opponents from setting up to match the user's boosts, by either Taunting or phazing itself. That resistance to phazing and set-up however comes at the cost of having no offensive presence whatsoever while the chain is in progress, as well as no recovery, so a prematurely disrupted/broken chain could cost the whole match, with limited means to reset it.
The strategy revolves around preventing potential phazing and setup attempts, outrunning offensive threats by switching between the dedicated physical and special walls, and boosting to negate their presence. You beat Meadpass by preventing any or many boosts from occuring, primarily through relentless offensive pressure; crippling the passers with sleep or paralysis when the opportunity presents itself, and taking advantage of that; or taking out at least one of the three during a match, because they each serve a distinct role that cannot be replaced once fainted, and without which severely increases the team's vulnerability.
This is not the tall order that the decriers of BP in the community seem to have made it out to be. Virtually any random OU-worthy team is capable of defeating meadpass, no Roar, Taunt, Haze, or own BP required. I have done it (even against Mead himself iirc, on ladder) and seen it done many times without a hint of miraculousness. It only requires you to have a brain at teambuilder and during the match. It is daunting surely, a very good strategy that is not easy to beat, but not at all undefeatable nor banworthy.
Another complaint I see bandied about rather commonly is that playing BP is too easy, too flowchart---that it allows the user to win too effortlessly. While the combination of Agility plus Substitute definitely puts the Meadpass user in the driver's seat of the match, there are many instances where they too will need to make tough calls, just like their opponent, that could cost them their chain if incorrect: a common scenario, where their Substitute is being continuously broken, but they could risk boosting in the open to prevent that from happening further, yet doing so leaves them at risk of getting statused or exploded on or counter-boosted or many other possible responses to this opportunity. Without a means of recovery, and the limited amount of Substitutes that can be put up, there's a large enough margin of error in employing the strategy for it to not be foolproof. Yet even in the hands of an intelligent, competent, experienced player, there is no way to immunize oneself against all dangers, and they will more than a few times be forced to engage in a battle of wits and chicken, at the mercy not of RNG, but of their own competence against their opponent's. In short, the strategy is really not much less skill-based than any other, which puts it less in the camp of say a Sand Veil team than say a standard TSS.
And on that note, another complaint is that Meadpass / Baton Pass under the current rules has limited to no counterplay on a standard team. I have already explained how that is inaccurate or untrue, and will not repeat myself, but it is worth mentioning it to dissuade from comparisons to Sand Veil or even Mr. Mime BP. With Sand Veil, you were at the mercy of RNG, whether or not you made the right or wrong calls---with Meadpass however, provided again you have mons on your team capable of doing so (which most besides perhaps Stall do), you can beat it entirely with your own skill. There is nothing about its functioning that relies upon any element out of your hands other than damage rolls over a knife's edge, i.e. just barely breaking a sub or not.
In short, the counterplay is good play, and pretty much any old team with decent offensive presence will do. Once you see any of the at this point unmistakeable calling cards of Meadpass, it's up to you then to do what you need to do to demolish it---and if you fail to respond appropriately, in the sense of making a serious blunder or lapse in judgement, that's on you---yet if you made the wrong call after cognizantly weighing your options, then you know what? That's a legitimate loss.
The very sad thing I seem to see in this community is that many now want Baton Pass as a strategy at the very least nerfed so hard into the ground that any team which relies upon it will be rendered unviable and incapable of winning---that in lieu of a total ban, no other "solution" shall suffice than for it to be made toothless. Baton Pass, so far from being considered as a legitimate and interesting strategy, is treated as a threat to the metagame itself, to be chained or exorcised.
The discovery of Mr. Mime in BP and of Meadpass (and I shall also mention for the sake of some small completeness, Assist Smeargle) represent legitimate advancements / innovations in the metagame in spite of the increasing number of artificial restrictions placed upon the strategy. Now a while after the banning of Mr. Mime, people are still decrying Baton Pass and still demanding that something "be done" about "the problem". They are saying more or less the exact same things now about Meadpass they said about it back then, and so what does that then tell us about their mindset here? That as long as Baton Pass is difficult for them to beat with their already-established meta teams, that they will never be satisfied. They denounce its "uncompetitiveness" whilst repeatedly and extensively showing themselves to be disinterested in competing against it.
While I am wary of approaching this issue from the line of "It's a part of the game" due to widespread, common and established (legitimate) opposition to other "parts of the game" like OHKO moves and Evasion, I will nevertheless make the argument that Baton Pass as a strategy, mechanic, and move is not only interesting and worthwhile and even so far as enriching, but furthermore should be unassailable and its preservation unquestionable for true fans of the game. What other games in Pokemon's genre allow stat boosts and other special conditions to be shared retroactively with inactive party members? In ADV, it is the only form of pivoting available. And furthermore, it enables many mons which otherwise might never see competitive usage, such as of course but by no means limited to Marowak, to overcome their particular defects and become viable. Baton Pass is a part of this game we love that opens up so many more ways to play it, without which we lose more than we gain.
Calls for bans or severe limitations of Baton Pass are tantamount to calls for the game's deenrichment, for it to become more of a shell of itself and less of a full and featured game. If you support further restrictions upon Baton Pass in ADV than the many and varied already in place, what really are you advocating for? What are you aspiring to have accomplished? What is the very least outcome you would be satisfied with? At what point will these returns to the drawing board permanently cease and the "issue" be settled for good? Because clearly, it only takes one guy being sharp enough to discern an "exploit" that of course was neglected to notice/predict in the rules haphazardly composed, for there to be once again a storm of salt brewed that tosses yet another aspect of the strategy upon the chopping block. At what point will it be okay to say "Enough is enough, quit whining, git gud"? Because from the looks of things now, too many of you will never be satisfied until it's gone completely, claiming there is no redeeming value or merit to it whatsoever---hyperbolic positions that smack less of an erudite foresight into the future and nature of the game than, again, merely sheer frustration.
It's almost a little ridiculous even at this point to talk about "compromise" when, again, so much has already been done about Baton Pass in gen3ou, and we are really only gathered here again to argue it further because someone devised a new core---and rather than celebrate that innovation, this suspect test and the chatter around it is aimed at punishing it. The dominant sentiment I am sensing is not that there *may* be something concerning here, but there *is* something concerning here, and that something shouldn't *maybe* be done about it, but *should* be done about it. This all seems, from the conversations I've been observing and participating in, less like an investigation and more like qualifiers for voting for one's predetermined preferred flavor of restrictions.
Let's take the mildest possible course of action that could follow this for an example: a ban on Baton Pass + Taunt. Would that not be a baldfaced, blatant assault against Meadpass in particular? Would it not be a confirmation of what I am insinuating is more or less merely reactive salt in the face of savvier strategizing? It would seem to be an illegitimate weaponization of the rules of the game in fact less concerned with notions of balance and fairness or even variety (in the sense of, not having everyone in the meta just run a meadpass or anti-meadpass team to the exclusion of everything else now somehow rendered unviable), than with neutralizing a pesky opposing threat one does not wish to handle (and inevitably someone uses the word "fun" when the argument arises, as if something being "unfun" to play against serves as a valid reason to remove it from the game---where would stall teams be in that case?).
Yet if we consider more severe options like banning speedpassing, any statpassing, limiting the users down to 1 or 2 per team, or banning it altogether, still, what is the benefit of this? Who does it serve and upon what grounds is it justified? These restrictions in place and being discussed were not a factor five years ago, so why now? And after this suspect test concludes, for how long and under what circumstances will that state of affairs last?
For an established and impactful mechanic like Baton Pass, the questions being asked shouldn't be "Why should it stay?", but "Why should it go?" "Uncompetitive", "unhealthy", "unfun", and other such virtually hollow buzzwords shouldn't cut it. Cut dry, the "issue" here is that the strategy wins a lot, "too much" and "too well", many feel. This suspect test therefore, considered as a trial in its sentencing phase, to state the obvious but slightly shameful, is to find ways for it to perform worse and win less. So again, what amount of nerfs will be enough?
And who all has the "right" or authority to determine that---the current majority, either of the whole playerbase or the segment of top players? The playerbase of years ago passed down to us a meta where baton pass is still legal, a meta more than a few of us currently enjoy. And what shall we leave for new players who will come in after this, who may not get the chance to review and revise these present decisions at large? There is no sanctity here about Baton Pass that has been placed beyond reach of policy and reproach, nothing concurred resoundingly to be preserved. Who can look at the tone and points of the present discourse taken as a whole and, comparing it with that of the not-too-distant past, not suspect the current revulsion toward Baton Pass to be little more than an unfortunate fad amongst a newer crop of players that may pass with the next? Baton Pass functions now the same as it had 18 years ago--what has changed is people finding new ways of using it (and at this point, even in spite of all the limitations that have been introduced, we can believe that there is more still to discover that will further shake up the meta). And what the current playerbase appears to find a nuisance may have struck the playerbase of a decade ago or from now as nifty. Where does commonsense dedication to the game step in to curtail attempts to appease demands of the present? When are we allowed to call out and into question the supposed overlap between what is actually "good for the game" and what would merely make some number of players happier?
While a ban on Baton Pass is more or less established in the metas from Gen4 onward, Gen2 and Gen3 remain the only ones largely unaffected by this unfortunate trend. I've heard all sorts of justifications for it in later gens, but the fact remains that it is legal here and the sky hasn't fallen. This is no 20XX where the only viable teams are Baton Pass or designed to counter them. There was no critical need to have this. What this suspect test amounts to is politicized complaining apparently emboldened by a tide of sentiment sweeping in from other gens in the face of a particularly well-thought out strategy / team comp that proves no cakewalk to beat. But "difficult" and "impossible" are being conflated; and frankly, if you are finding yourself consistently incapable of beating meadpass or baton pass in general, then you should be reevaluating your teambuilding or play rather than drafting the newest Baton Pass rulings. It is, again, a strategy not fundamentally unlike any other---it is not undefeatable (nor even requires the grace of RNJesus to do so), nor is it a "matchup fish" that "autowins" in a way distinct to say a TSS "autowins" against teams ill- or un-equipped to handle that (by lacking spinners, trappers, clerics, etc.). It is meta, and at a certain point, you just have to adapt. But all I've been hearing is unwillingness to do so.
You might imagine from this long defense of Baton Pass that I am a diehard user of it and see this as a threat to the only way I can play the game, but that is not true. I do enjoy utilizing BP in all the tiers I can, sometimes fullpass sometimes not, but it isn't my only or even main playstyle. I will be less affected by further restrictions than maybe other players might. Nevertheless, this all concerns an option I currently have available to me that will be impoverished should further action be taken. I see neither the move nor the strategy as overcentralizing nor overpowered, neither when I am using it nor when I am playing against it. I personally find stall more irritating to face and difficult to overcome than BP, and I do enjoy how the strategy allows me to end games quicker than otherwise if I build the right team and make the right plays. It gives me the freedom to play unconventionally, which is something I've always personally found important.
I feel like the current rulings are more or less fair and a good compromise between those who like using it and those who find it difficult to manage. None of the proposed adjustments as far as gen3ou is concerned seem to me at all reasonable, and I could say the same for the ongoing debate in gen3ubers considering it has (excuse and correct me if I'm wrong here) currently no BP restrictions in place whatsoever, yet they are laser-focused on making the same leaps there as is in question now for OU.
Gen3 is my favorite gen, and I would be remiss if on the one hand, any more ways to play it were taken away, and on the other, if this particular way that has so much to offer was to be randomly removed on account of what I feel to be salty chittering. At this point the slippery slope seems to be real here, and that further concessions against BP in this climate will march it towards its neutering, who can say when if ever will be reversed and to what extent. The decisions reached this year may stand for years to come, and that is what we will be forced to play for all that time.
I don't mean for my post here to be an attack upon anyone's credibility, but at the same time, the arguments in favor of further restrictions or bans that I have encountered have not done much to assure me that we're even on the same page of Baton Pass being a valuable part of the game, which to me should be uncontroversial. If you've convinced yourself that Baton Pass was a mistake and should be wiped from existence or nerfed into oblivion, I have no way to take that seriously. Yet even comparatively milder positions like limit to two users seem excessive at this point considering 1) The numerous and extensive rules already in place, and 2) The currently meta teams that are still relatively fringe and undominant.
Assuming still that this is largely about Meadpass, Meadpass is Meadpass and the core will not and almost certainly can never change while still being itself, efficacy and all. The strategy is still relatively new, but not at all arcane and only slightly still obscure. Rather than initiating this suspect test any time soon, more time should have been given for the playerbase to catch-up and adapt. Once you know what to expect, you can handle it in an ensuing game of skill. There are very few surprises in store.
As for Baton Pass as a whole and in general, remind me where in the rules it says that certain teamstyles must be made easier to beat than others, or that you must have perfect and complete knowledge of what you're dealing with when going into a match against them. Baton Pass should be allowed to be strong and hard to beat, because, again, there's ultimately nothing really about it that makes it a special case apart from any other team style.
I felt the need first to draw some attention to the first match posted in the policy review thread and make some comments upon the points it flags:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-577063
At this point we all know how Meadpass works, and it seems to be the primary culprit for this suspect test, so we'll attend to that. But this replay is from August 21st, and it's clear from the plays that EeveetoTheN00b knew neither what he was dealing with nor for that matter how to handle it. And yet while he made several mistakes in hindsight, he actually possessed the mons and tools necessary to disrupt the chain. Had he been more familiar with the team, and made one or two small but om-meta changes to his team, a win was entirely within the realm of possibility.
One of the complaints about Meadpass is the difficulty in recognizing it as such before it is too late. Yet here, it was probable at Turn 3, and more or less unmistakeable by Turn 4, at which point Eeveeto had already set himself up nicely for handling it.
His switch to Claydol following Zapdos' entrance put him in one of the best possible positions against it considering his team, assuming it has the standard Psychic, EQ, Explosion set. With the right call, he could have taken out one of the mons with an Explosion, and made the chain more manageable if not destroy it completely. But instead of continuously applying pressure to Zapdos with Psychic, he Rapid Spins on Turn 6 and gave the momentum back to ABR. The removal of Spikes was either negligible or entirely irrelevant in terms of helping against this team, so Rapid Spin there was essentially a wasted turn.
Nevertheless, none of the three passers have an attack, so the subsequent pass to Vaporeon was not a game-ender for Eeveeto. I won't follow the line of what-ifs had he kept Claydol in, but his switch to Magneton put him back on solid footing. But he made his second biggest mistake at Turn 9 in using Hidden Power rather than Thunderbolt, which would have broken the Substitute at least; the only way to excuse it would be if it was a predicted pass to a Marowak, using HP Grass. Nevertheless, the failure to break Sub there once again put him on the backfoot.
Yet it so happens that not only did he have a Gyarados, but he switches to it immediately after this. As we and ABR knew, Gyarados has access to both Taunt and Roar, the former of which is not at all a novelty or niche choice, and has plenty of utility against teams of all sort not merely limited to Baton Pass. As soon as ABR sees it, he Taunts it, halting Eeveeto's Dragon Dance; satisfied that Taunt was not a factor, he then passes back to Vaporeon. It was at this point that Eeveeto, had he had Taunt, could have Taunted the Vaporeon and momentarily disrupted the chain, giving him a window of opportunity to break it.
From there, the match could have gone any number of ways, with several paths for an Eeveeto victory, but regardless at Turn 14, we would have had a helpless Vaporeon with 2x speed, 2x defense, and a CM boost on it---a bad predicament still, but not impossible to win from. I won't enumerate all the ways, but I will say that they are all connected by, again, Eeveeto making the correct calls at the correct times.
Meadpass is beaten primarily by applying brute force pressure until the user is forced to pass prematurely, or otherwise presents an opening on one of the passers. Eeveeto seems to have had at least two Explosion users, as well as perhaps a Twave user in Magneton, which is enough to cripple or destroy the chain. And there is nothing special about Eeveeto's team; it's not tailormade to beat Baton Pass, it is a regular team which just so happens to be capable of doing so.
Another complaint with Meadpass and Baton Pass teams in general is the heavy need for prediction---that playing against it is a "guessing game" where you win or lose on the right or wrong calls of what the foe will do. If I am accurately presenting this complaint, then I fail to see how BP is fundementally different as a strategy in this game of Pokemon from any other. The entire game is founded upon predicting what your opponent will do, and there is almost nothing about Baton Pass or Meadpass that circumvents this nature of the game. It, just like any other strategy, will crumble if you have the right tools and use them at the right time---and you will probably lose if you don't.
The difference with Meadpass of course (and what it shares with Mr. Mime and Ingrain strats) is the resistance to phazing, the simplest and most reliable and widespread way in general to break BP chains. This forces most opponents into a brute force approach where they must hope to apply the correct powerful moves to take out at least one of the passers before the boosts become insurmountable; but an additional noteworthy feature is its ability to prevent opponents from setting up to match the user's boosts, by either Taunting or phazing itself. That resistance to phazing and set-up however comes at the cost of having no offensive presence whatsoever while the chain is in progress, as well as no recovery, so a prematurely disrupted/broken chain could cost the whole match, with limited means to reset it.
The strategy revolves around preventing potential phazing and setup attempts, outrunning offensive threats by switching between the dedicated physical and special walls, and boosting to negate their presence. You beat Meadpass by preventing any or many boosts from occuring, primarily through relentless offensive pressure; crippling the passers with sleep or paralysis when the opportunity presents itself, and taking advantage of that; or taking out at least one of the three during a match, because they each serve a distinct role that cannot be replaced once fainted, and without which severely increases the team's vulnerability.
This is not the tall order that the decriers of BP in the community seem to have made it out to be. Virtually any random OU-worthy team is capable of defeating meadpass, no Roar, Taunt, Haze, or own BP required. I have done it (even against Mead himself iirc, on ladder) and seen it done many times without a hint of miraculousness. It only requires you to have a brain at teambuilder and during the match. It is daunting surely, a very good strategy that is not easy to beat, but not at all undefeatable nor banworthy.
Another complaint I see bandied about rather commonly is that playing BP is too easy, too flowchart---that it allows the user to win too effortlessly. While the combination of Agility plus Substitute definitely puts the Meadpass user in the driver's seat of the match, there are many instances where they too will need to make tough calls, just like their opponent, that could cost them their chain if incorrect: a common scenario, where their Substitute is being continuously broken, but they could risk boosting in the open to prevent that from happening further, yet doing so leaves them at risk of getting statused or exploded on or counter-boosted or many other possible responses to this opportunity. Without a means of recovery, and the limited amount of Substitutes that can be put up, there's a large enough margin of error in employing the strategy for it to not be foolproof. Yet even in the hands of an intelligent, competent, experienced player, there is no way to immunize oneself against all dangers, and they will more than a few times be forced to engage in a battle of wits and chicken, at the mercy not of RNG, but of their own competence against their opponent's. In short, the strategy is really not much less skill-based than any other, which puts it less in the camp of say a Sand Veil team than say a standard TSS.
And on that note, another complaint is that Meadpass / Baton Pass under the current rules has limited to no counterplay on a standard team. I have already explained how that is inaccurate or untrue, and will not repeat myself, but it is worth mentioning it to dissuade from comparisons to Sand Veil or even Mr. Mime BP. With Sand Veil, you were at the mercy of RNG, whether or not you made the right or wrong calls---with Meadpass however, provided again you have mons on your team capable of doing so (which most besides perhaps Stall do), you can beat it entirely with your own skill. There is nothing about its functioning that relies upon any element out of your hands other than damage rolls over a knife's edge, i.e. just barely breaking a sub or not.
In short, the counterplay is good play, and pretty much any old team with decent offensive presence will do. Once you see any of the at this point unmistakeable calling cards of Meadpass, it's up to you then to do what you need to do to demolish it---and if you fail to respond appropriately, in the sense of making a serious blunder or lapse in judgement, that's on you---yet if you made the wrong call after cognizantly weighing your options, then you know what? That's a legitimate loss.
The very sad thing I seem to see in this community is that many now want Baton Pass as a strategy at the very least nerfed so hard into the ground that any team which relies upon it will be rendered unviable and incapable of winning---that in lieu of a total ban, no other "solution" shall suffice than for it to be made toothless. Baton Pass, so far from being considered as a legitimate and interesting strategy, is treated as a threat to the metagame itself, to be chained or exorcised.
The discovery of Mr. Mime in BP and of Meadpass (and I shall also mention for the sake of some small completeness, Assist Smeargle) represent legitimate advancements / innovations in the metagame in spite of the increasing number of artificial restrictions placed upon the strategy. Now a while after the banning of Mr. Mime, people are still decrying Baton Pass and still demanding that something "be done" about "the problem". They are saying more or less the exact same things now about Meadpass they said about it back then, and so what does that then tell us about their mindset here? That as long as Baton Pass is difficult for them to beat with their already-established meta teams, that they will never be satisfied. They denounce its "uncompetitiveness" whilst repeatedly and extensively showing themselves to be disinterested in competing against it.
While I am wary of approaching this issue from the line of "It's a part of the game" due to widespread, common and established (legitimate) opposition to other "parts of the game" like OHKO moves and Evasion, I will nevertheless make the argument that Baton Pass as a strategy, mechanic, and move is not only interesting and worthwhile and even so far as enriching, but furthermore should be unassailable and its preservation unquestionable for true fans of the game. What other games in Pokemon's genre allow stat boosts and other special conditions to be shared retroactively with inactive party members? In ADV, it is the only form of pivoting available. And furthermore, it enables many mons which otherwise might never see competitive usage, such as of course but by no means limited to Marowak, to overcome their particular defects and become viable. Baton Pass is a part of this game we love that opens up so many more ways to play it, without which we lose more than we gain.
Calls for bans or severe limitations of Baton Pass are tantamount to calls for the game's deenrichment, for it to become more of a shell of itself and less of a full and featured game. If you support further restrictions upon Baton Pass in ADV than the many and varied already in place, what really are you advocating for? What are you aspiring to have accomplished? What is the very least outcome you would be satisfied with? At what point will these returns to the drawing board permanently cease and the "issue" be settled for good? Because clearly, it only takes one guy being sharp enough to discern an "exploit" that of course was neglected to notice/predict in the rules haphazardly composed, for there to be once again a storm of salt brewed that tosses yet another aspect of the strategy upon the chopping block. At what point will it be okay to say "Enough is enough, quit whining, git gud"? Because from the looks of things now, too many of you will never be satisfied until it's gone completely, claiming there is no redeeming value or merit to it whatsoever---hyperbolic positions that smack less of an erudite foresight into the future and nature of the game than, again, merely sheer frustration.
It's almost a little ridiculous even at this point to talk about "compromise" when, again, so much has already been done about Baton Pass in gen3ou, and we are really only gathered here again to argue it further because someone devised a new core---and rather than celebrate that innovation, this suspect test and the chatter around it is aimed at punishing it. The dominant sentiment I am sensing is not that there *may* be something concerning here, but there *is* something concerning here, and that something shouldn't *maybe* be done about it, but *should* be done about it. This all seems, from the conversations I've been observing and participating in, less like an investigation and more like qualifiers for voting for one's predetermined preferred flavor of restrictions.
Let's take the mildest possible course of action that could follow this for an example: a ban on Baton Pass + Taunt. Would that not be a baldfaced, blatant assault against Meadpass in particular? Would it not be a confirmation of what I am insinuating is more or less merely reactive salt in the face of savvier strategizing? It would seem to be an illegitimate weaponization of the rules of the game in fact less concerned with notions of balance and fairness or even variety (in the sense of, not having everyone in the meta just run a meadpass or anti-meadpass team to the exclusion of everything else now somehow rendered unviable), than with neutralizing a pesky opposing threat one does not wish to handle (and inevitably someone uses the word "fun" when the argument arises, as if something being "unfun" to play against serves as a valid reason to remove it from the game---where would stall teams be in that case?).
Yet if we consider more severe options like banning speedpassing, any statpassing, limiting the users down to 1 or 2 per team, or banning it altogether, still, what is the benefit of this? Who does it serve and upon what grounds is it justified? These restrictions in place and being discussed were not a factor five years ago, so why now? And after this suspect test concludes, for how long and under what circumstances will that state of affairs last?
For an established and impactful mechanic like Baton Pass, the questions being asked shouldn't be "Why should it stay?", but "Why should it go?" "Uncompetitive", "unhealthy", "unfun", and other such virtually hollow buzzwords shouldn't cut it. Cut dry, the "issue" here is that the strategy wins a lot, "too much" and "too well", many feel. This suspect test therefore, considered as a trial in its sentencing phase, to state the obvious but slightly shameful, is to find ways for it to perform worse and win less. So again, what amount of nerfs will be enough?
And who all has the "right" or authority to determine that---the current majority, either of the whole playerbase or the segment of top players? The playerbase of years ago passed down to us a meta where baton pass is still legal, a meta more than a few of us currently enjoy. And what shall we leave for new players who will come in after this, who may not get the chance to review and revise these present decisions at large? There is no sanctity here about Baton Pass that has been placed beyond reach of policy and reproach, nothing concurred resoundingly to be preserved. Who can look at the tone and points of the present discourse taken as a whole and, comparing it with that of the not-too-distant past, not suspect the current revulsion toward Baton Pass to be little more than an unfortunate fad amongst a newer crop of players that may pass with the next? Baton Pass functions now the same as it had 18 years ago--what has changed is people finding new ways of using it (and at this point, even in spite of all the limitations that have been introduced, we can believe that there is more still to discover that will further shake up the meta). And what the current playerbase appears to find a nuisance may have struck the playerbase of a decade ago or from now as nifty. Where does commonsense dedication to the game step in to curtail attempts to appease demands of the present? When are we allowed to call out and into question the supposed overlap between what is actually "good for the game" and what would merely make some number of players happier?
While a ban on Baton Pass is more or less established in the metas from Gen4 onward, Gen2 and Gen3 remain the only ones largely unaffected by this unfortunate trend. I've heard all sorts of justifications for it in later gens, but the fact remains that it is legal here and the sky hasn't fallen. This is no 20XX where the only viable teams are Baton Pass or designed to counter them. There was no critical need to have this. What this suspect test amounts to is politicized complaining apparently emboldened by a tide of sentiment sweeping in from other gens in the face of a particularly well-thought out strategy / team comp that proves no cakewalk to beat. But "difficult" and "impossible" are being conflated; and frankly, if you are finding yourself consistently incapable of beating meadpass or baton pass in general, then you should be reevaluating your teambuilding or play rather than drafting the newest Baton Pass rulings. It is, again, a strategy not fundamentally unlike any other---it is not undefeatable (nor even requires the grace of RNJesus to do so), nor is it a "matchup fish" that "autowins" in a way distinct to say a TSS "autowins" against teams ill- or un-equipped to handle that (by lacking spinners, trappers, clerics, etc.). It is meta, and at a certain point, you just have to adapt. But all I've been hearing is unwillingness to do so.
You might imagine from this long defense of Baton Pass that I am a diehard user of it and see this as a threat to the only way I can play the game, but that is not true. I do enjoy utilizing BP in all the tiers I can, sometimes fullpass sometimes not, but it isn't my only or even main playstyle. I will be less affected by further restrictions than maybe other players might. Nevertheless, this all concerns an option I currently have available to me that will be impoverished should further action be taken. I see neither the move nor the strategy as overcentralizing nor overpowered, neither when I am using it nor when I am playing against it. I personally find stall more irritating to face and difficult to overcome than BP, and I do enjoy how the strategy allows me to end games quicker than otherwise if I build the right team and make the right plays. It gives me the freedom to play unconventionally, which is something I've always personally found important.
I feel like the current rulings are more or less fair and a good compromise between those who like using it and those who find it difficult to manage. None of the proposed adjustments as far as gen3ou is concerned seem to me at all reasonable, and I could say the same for the ongoing debate in gen3ubers considering it has (excuse and correct me if I'm wrong here) currently no BP restrictions in place whatsoever, yet they are laser-focused on making the same leaps there as is in question now for OU.
Gen3 is my favorite gen, and I would be remiss if on the one hand, any more ways to play it were taken away, and on the other, if this particular way that has so much to offer was to be randomly removed on account of what I feel to be salty chittering. At this point the slippery slope seems to be real here, and that further concessions against BP in this climate will march it towards its neutering, who can say when if ever will be reversed and to what extent. The decisions reached this year may stand for years to come, and that is what we will be forced to play for all that time.
I don't mean for my post here to be an attack upon anyone's credibility, but at the same time, the arguments in favor of further restrictions or bans that I have encountered have not done much to assure me that we're even on the same page of Baton Pass being a valuable part of the game, which to me should be uncontroversial. If you've convinced yourself that Baton Pass was a mistake and should be wiped from existence or nerfed into oblivion, I have no way to take that seriously. Yet even comparatively milder positions like limit to two users seem excessive at this point considering 1) The numerous and extensive rules already in place, and 2) The currently meta teams that are still relatively fringe and undominant.
Assuming still that this is largely about Meadpass, Meadpass is Meadpass and the core will not and almost certainly can never change while still being itself, efficacy and all. The strategy is still relatively new, but not at all arcane and only slightly still obscure. Rather than initiating this suspect test any time soon, more time should have been given for the playerbase to catch-up and adapt. Once you know what to expect, you can handle it in an ensuing game of skill. There are very few surprises in store.
As for Baton Pass as a whole and in general, remind me where in the rules it says that certain teamstyles must be made easier to beat than others, or that you must have perfect and complete knowledge of what you're dealing with when going into a match against them. Baton Pass should be allowed to be strong and hard to beat, because, again, there's ultimately nothing really about it that makes it a special case apart from any other team style.
feels like you spent more time writing this post than playing the game…Claydol psychic doesn’t break zapdos sub. The above replay is over/flowcharted on turn 3 when metagross clicks mash. Lead smeargle+zapdos can absolutely be a real team. Meadpass can (usually does) have leads other than smeargle.
I didn’t read the rest tbh…post Elo ban BP thanks
I didn’t read the rest tbh…post Elo ban BP thanks
RealJester
RoAPL Champion
So I'm not going to claim to be at the level of the tournie players on main thread (1402 rn) but I have beat a few #1s on ladder (once with a marowak, no BP) and several 1500+ players at this point. I only make teams with at least one UU or UUBL - experimenting is what gives gen 3 longevity and fun to me. With said teams, I struggle more against a 1200 rating BP team than against a 1400+ team. I am convinced this is because there is little to no prediction involved in simply clicking a stat boost then using BP vs. actually using an attacking move. I have never seen a team capable of consistently countering BP teams and still being viable against the main meta. I've also only ever faced 2 players 1400+ where BP was their core tactic. It's not a stable strat but rather one that only compromises another team's ability to counter main meta. Also...
ABR himself thinks BP should be nerfed, despite wins with a BP team. See main thread.
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Man's done a dissertation on baton pass
Not a serious ADV player but I lurk here and occasionally have a battle or two on the ladder. Would an in-battle BP chain clause be possible? i.e, you cannot use Baton Pass with a Pokemon that came into the field through Baton Pass. The analogue would be Sleep clause - both arbitrarily limit the use of a move depending on what happened in the previous turns.
This'd preserve legitimate strategies like Ninjask/Agilipass to Marowak, avoid collateral bans, simplify the ruleset (just one BP-related clause) and actually tackle what's problematic - BP chains.
This'd preserve legitimate strategies like Ninjask/Agilipass to Marowak, avoid collateral bans, simplify the ruleset (just one BP-related clause) and actually tackle what's problematic - BP chains.
RealJester
RoAPL Champion
Ideally, we want to prevent collateral with regards to momentum-based offenses (namely ZapBi and VapZap). These styles get heavily neutered if you can't maintain momentum with multiple drypasses, and instead have to resort to prediction. This solution would be better if it was tied to the intrinsic source of the issue, which isn't BP chains, but statpass chains. That being said, a 2-BP limit is being entertained, and was even implemented as a rule in CI5.
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RealJester
RoAPL Champion
This is probably overly complicated and hurts salac Vap.
non-trolling post alertI’d post in the other thread but I don’t have enough brownie points. IDK the consensus on this rn but it should be pretty obvious.
Option 3 (Ban Taunt plus Baton Pass) is the best choice
It has effectively no collateral.
Its intended hit is taunt+bp hypno. In addition it will hit:
- Taunt+bp umbreon (extremely fringe set used for meanlook pass.) It’s seen 1 use from the past 2 SPLs and CIs iirc; I prefer it banned anyway. It’s uncompetitive in all the same ways as fullpass.
- Taunt+bp mawile. Mawile is only usable as a physAtk/physdef-focused replacement for hypno. I am the only person who has used it in a serious game AFAIK (as a workaround for the CI5 bp limitation). This is a successful hit from this ban.
- Taunt+bp absol is not used. If it was, it would likely be as a hypno replacement. This hit is either successful or non-consequential.
- Dodrio is not used, (let alone with taunt+bp). This hit is non-consequential.
The change will work.
Full baton pass teams won't be remotely oppressive with taunt+batonpass banned. Because:
- No Mon can pass spdef (without a berry) and block phasing with roar/whirlwind. “jusT sPaM strOnG mOveS” clowns will actually be right.
- Roar+bp can still block phazing. However, one can play against roar+bp in a lot more ways than taunt+bp. I shouldnt need to explain this L2P.
Option 1 is dumb Post Elo l2p etc.
Option 2 is a pretty hefty nerf; however it’s still a lighter nerf than option 3. (See meadpass delta variant)
Option 3 goated
Option 4 is probably a sufficient nerf. There may be room to pass spdef/def to a speed booster (taunt ddmons?). However it has significant collateral (Vappy zappy sciz etc)
Option 5 fixes the bp issue but has huge impact on metagame. @ people pretending they have OCD over rulesets, stop it.
-All this said, my biggest concern with option 3 is mons blocking phazing with sleep moves. I don’t think lunatone meadpass works (I’ve tried), but if mead does reach 1800elo again post-ban, I’m guessing that’ll be how.
Edit: assist smeargle should be included in the no bp smeargle clause; literally just an oversight by the council. Shouldn’t be part of this discussion.
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As you can guess by my alt name, I will not vote in favor to add another clause to nerf Baton Pass in ADV OU. Please read up to the end (there is still a TLDR at the end though).
Fullpass is a play style like another in the tier that, in the first look, seems broken and complicated to deal with. However, there are plenty tools at our disposition that we can use in order to be prepared to face and to beat fullpass teams. Fullpass teams using lead Zapdos, Vaporeon and Hypno have several weaknesses like, among others, choice banded leads, Taunt + Roar/Whirlwind, Taunt + Dragon Danse, Perish Song, Haze…
The solution might be to rethink our way to build teams in order to consider this threat. We can compare it to Spikes for example. Spikes is a very unique move that is very strong in ADV OU that could be considered broken if nothing existed to counter it. The solution to this threat can be to run a spinner or Magneton to trap and knock out most common spikers namely Skarmory and Forretress. The same way, we can adapt and include pokemons that counter fullpass playstyle in our teams.
OK I was actually trolling. Fullpass is too strong and it’s often too late when you realise you are facing it. Here are my thoughts about the ban propositions:
1. Keep baton pass as it is: ADV OU has a well balanced metagame and this kind of team does not really fit in it. It is not that easy to play this kind of team but I feel like without error you are almost guaranteed to win while the same does not apply in reverse. Of course we can use more Taunt, Perish Song, Haze pokemons but if it ends up limiting the number of viable teams there is an issue. This without talking about the fact that there is not fun playing against it.
Conclusion: not a satisfactory solution, number 5 in my list.
2. Limit to 2 Baton Pass users on a team: This solution would reduce significantly the threat of Baton Pass teams and assist teams as well. Hclat showed that it was still possible to build a successful Baton Pass team with only two users but I feel that this kind of teams are a way less problematic and easier to counter (still I haven’t faced it a lot). To be noted that the goal is not make Baton Pass teams absolutely unviable but rather to nerf them. The downside is that other types of team are affected as already mentioned by others e.g. Zapdos + Vaporeon + Celebi teams and being able to play less kinds of team is never good.
Conclusion: solution that should be able to solve the issue, has a downside by limiting the possibilities in the builder, number 3 in my list.
3. Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Taunt: Effective solution for current version of fullpass that rely on Hypno with Taunt. Also effective for Hclat version that rely on Mawile with Taunt. However, the combination Baton Pass + Taunt is not mandatory for a fullpass team to work. ABR gave an example with their assist team recently created.
Conclusion: not effective enough ? number 2 in my list.
4. Ban combination of Baton Pass + speed boost: Main reason fullpass teams work is because they can phase/Taunt faster than the opponent. This solution seems to be able to stop totally this kind of teams. The downside is that other types of team are affected.
Conclusion: Really effective, I feel that less teams can be affected by it compared to solution 2, number 1 on my list.
5. Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Any Stat Boosts (Dry pass only): same as above but even more effective and causes even more limitations in the builder.
Conclusion: number 4 in my list.
TLDR: Ban combination of Baton Pass + speed boost might be the most satisfactory by its effectiveness to limit Baton Pass teams and by not affecting to much other types of team.
Also, combination of several solutions might be necessary.
Unban Mime pls
How about hypnosis hypno, sand attack, or even T wave? Agility zap -> vap w/ roar or metagross with explosion are both pretty broken imo.
I’d post in the other thread but I don’t have enough brownie points. IDK the consensus on this rn but it should be pretty obvious.
Option 3 (Ban Taunt plus Baton Pass) is the best choice
It has effectively no collateral.
Its intended hit is taunt+bp hypno. In addition it will hit:
- Taunt+bp umbreon (extremely fringe set used for meanlook pass.) It’s seen 1 use from the past 2 SPLs and CIs iirc; I prefer it banned anyway. It’s uncompetitive in all the same ways as fullpass.
- Taunt+bp mawile. Mawile is only usable as a physAtk/physdef-focused replacement for hypno. I am the only person who has used it in a serious game AFAIK (as a workaround for the CI5 bp limitation). This is a successful hit from this ban.
- Taunt+bp absol is not used. If it was, it would likely be as a hypno replacement. This hit is either successful or non-consequential.
- Dodrio is not used, (let alone with taunt+bp). This hit is non-consequential.
The change will work.
Full baton pass teams won't be remotely oppressive with taunt+batonpass banned. Because:
Re counterarguments:
- No Mon can pass spdef (without a berry) and block phasing with roar/whirlwind. “jusT sPaM strOnG mOveS” clowns will actually be right.
- Roar+bp can still block phazing. However, one can play against roar+bp in a lot more ways than taunt+bp. I shouldnt need to explain this L2P.
Option 1 is dumb Post Elo l2p etc.
Option 2 is a pretty hefty nerf; however it’s still a lighter nerf than option 3. (See meadpass delta variant)
Option 3 goated
Option 4 is probably a sufficient nerf. There may be room to pass spdef/def to a speed booster (taunt ddmons?). However it has significant collateral (Vappy zappy sciz etc)
Option 5 fixes the bp issue but has huge impact on metagame. @ people pretending they have OCD over rulesets, stop it.
-All this said, my biggest concern with option 3 is mons blocking phazing with sleep moves. I don’t think lunatone meadpass works (I’ve tried), but if mead does reach 1800elo again post-ban, I’m guessing that’ll be how.
Edit: assist smeargle should be included in the no bp smeargle clause; literally just an oversight by the council. Shouldn’t be part of this discussion.
I get the point of people citing tournie matches here, but ladder should be considered equally as that's what 99% of players play and I believe how players qualify for tournies here? In any case, ABR who is a tournie player doesn't even always use taunt in the replays on the main thread
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Since I saw a mention of Dodrio in this thread...
Wanted to share a quick story. Since I don't think BP should be banned or nerfed any more than it has...as a long time player of the tier. We should just learn to deal with things.
So anyway...if BP is not nerfed this will be a bit more relevant. Here goes...
Before even the 3-Baton Pass limit for my purposes, I was looking to actually use Dodrio as a tool AGAINST BP --something to really screw with it that was not Phazing-based. With Dodrio, I realized the niche of utilizing Agility + Taunt as a workaround to stopping full BP if the BP user were not astute enough to have Taunt or Taunt back (against Umbreon/Vaporeon or when Mime (now Hypno) gets in, assuming some form of speed boost was gained at the start of the opponent's BP chain), and with two attacks as filler. So it is just a supporting piece of a basic or more balanced team. Because yeah...Taunt from the Agility'd up Dodrio will work through the Sub that Ninjask or Zapdos or Vaporeon passes or tries to pass.
Having a UU/BL mon to experiment with in OU is fun! It still counters partial BP and Celebi pretty well, I find , in the current metagame, and it held its own against Snorlax and Tyranitar to chip them, lol, since it had HP Fighting. Admittedly it is probably better to just do CB with Dodrio and for it to actually use Baton Pass itself on the CB Set, but I did not want to make a Magneton team...derp. It has the best Drill Peck going for it, so that is very good. :/ (Drill) Pecking shit is great. Also, EARLY BIRD is not entirely useless! See: Breloom - Zero-turn sleep anyone? I think it's happened. :)
Wanted to share a quick story. Since I don't think BP should be banned or nerfed any more than it has...as a long time player of the tier. We should just learn to deal with things.
So anyway...if BP is not nerfed this will be a bit more relevant. Here goes...
Before even the 3-Baton Pass limit for my purposes, I was looking to actually use Dodrio as a tool AGAINST BP --something to really screw with it that was not Phazing-based. With Dodrio, I realized the niche of utilizing Agility + Taunt as a workaround to stopping full BP if the BP user were not astute enough to have Taunt or Taunt back (against Umbreon/Vaporeon or when Mime (now Hypno) gets in, assuming some form of speed boost was gained at the start of the opponent's BP chain), and with two attacks as filler. So it is just a supporting piece of a basic or more balanced team. Because yeah...Taunt from the Agility'd up Dodrio will work through the Sub that Ninjask or Zapdos or Vaporeon passes or tries to pass.
Having a UU/BL mon to experiment with in OU is fun! It still counters partial BP and Celebi pretty well, I find , in the current metagame, and it held its own against Snorlax and Tyranitar to chip them, lol, since it had HP Fighting. Admittedly it is probably better to just do CB with Dodrio and for it to actually use Baton Pass itself on the CB Set, but I did not want to make a Magneton team...derp. It has the best Drill Peck going for it, so that is very good. :/ (Drill) Pecking shit is great. Also, EARLY BIRD is not entirely useless! See: Breloom - Zero-turn sleep anyone? I think it's happened. :)
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BP would still be useful but would require a similar level of prediction to any other tactic. Pretty sure there would be no way to pass all of def, spdef, and speed. If these 2 rules were in place, I think 2 direct counters (roar, haze, or taunt) would be sufficient to counter BP while still having a decent chance against the very popular teams based off ttar and suicune.
EDIT: the new option, "Limit to 1 form of stat-boosting alongside Baton Pass across the whole team" sounds good too. Again very effective possibilities to BP, but still counterable with 2 direct counters.
I'd say "Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Speed Boosts" would be good but it doesn't stop defensive bp teams. Sand attack or hypnosis with bp is really uncompetitive to play against but would only continue to work if this was the nerf chosen. The one BP player I've seen above 1500 rating used vap and hypno
Plz see my post below. I think there needs to be a new option
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Confirming As advbp2-nut-swinging.
Deleted User 108547
Banned deucer.
NEW BEST OPTION:
No speed pass. No taunt. Ban assist. Up to 6 BP users. The end.
The reason BP can be uncounterable or overly compromising to counter is speed and priority (Taunt).
You didn't read their mind in one move or you missed? GG.
We can't simply have no speed pass, because of taunt. We can't simply have no taunt with BP, because of speed boosted roar.
I've been testing ninjask into other things and it's pretty ridiculous the ways you can win with just ninjask as your BP. Ninjask -> marowak, metagross, magneton, suicune, celebi, scizor, hypno... it goes on and on. Vapicuno even once topped the ladder with just ninjask for stat boosted BP
I have a replay where the player Mead (1521) destroys me and I realized it's because his hypno knew taunt. Highest BP player I've personally played.
Yes, hypno can use hypnosis but that's manageable since it can miss, your mon could wake up and roar, etc. Yes, vaporeon or umb could use sand attack - again, they will get roared out if you have good prediction and aren't totally unlucky.
Mean look might (probably) still prove a problem, but there will be a new review of that anyways as stated in the main thread.
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This would potentially allow more bp options, but they're all counterable without serious compromise. Hope we give this one some thought.
No speed pass. No taunt. Ban assist. Up to 6 BP users. The end.
The reason BP can be uncounterable or overly compromising to counter is speed and priority (Taunt).
You didn't read their mind in one move or you missed? GG.
We can't simply have no speed pass, because of taunt. We can't simply have no taunt with BP, because of speed boosted roar.
I've been testing ninjask into other things and it's pretty ridiculous the ways you can win with just ninjask as your BP. Ninjask -> marowak, metagross, magneton, suicune, celebi, scizor, hypno... it goes on and on. Vapicuno even once topped the ladder with just ninjask for stat boosted BP
I have a replay where the player Mead (1521) destroys me and I realized it's because his hypno knew taunt. Highest BP player I've personally played.
Yes, hypno can use hypnosis but that's manageable since it can miss, your mon could wake up and roar, etc. Yes, vaporeon or umb could use sand attack - again, they will get roared out if you have good prediction and aren't totally unlucky.
Mean look might (probably) still prove a problem, but there will be a new review of that anyways as stated in the main thread.
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This would potentially allow more bp options, but they're all counterable without serious compromise. Hope we give this one some thought.
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Hey everyone, as a very active member of the ADV community i want to post my thoughts on BP and on what i think is the best solution to the problem.
I will be looking at each ban option separetely and arguing the pros and cons of each:
1 Keep Baton Pass as is (Limited to 3 users on a team)
AKA not adressing the problem.
This option imo is for 3 categories of people:
-Boomers who haven't played much in the last year and haven't quite uderstood the brokenness of Mead Pass.
-People who are extremely new to ADV and haven't quite figured out what's broken and what isn't.
-People who are unsatisfied whit the other options and would rather do nothing than pick an option that they don't like(i don't quite get this position personally cause i think the other 4 option pretty much cover the entire spectrum of different approaches to the ban)
TLDR: I think this option is bad cause we need to address the problem.
2 Limit to 2 Baton Pass users on a team and Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Taunt
AKA trying to contain the problem.
People that are in favor of this option want incremental bans that don't really impact the tier too much and want to tackle the problem bit by bit by weakening the power of bp teams overtime. I think this process is quite flawed and here's my reasoning: the previous bp bans have already had a big impact on the tier and by keep adding on "minor" bans we reach a point where all the "minor" bans put together have a bigger impact than 1 "big" ban. For example these people want to preserve Salac pass Vaporeon or Speed pass Scizor or Agility Bp Zapdos+Marowak, but they didn't care for banning Mr.Mime or nuking a lot of Smeargle sets or wanting to eliminate the few uses of Hypno, Mawile, and nuking entirely Mean Look pass Umbreon(which is far from broken). So at the end of the day it comes down to preference for these people, they like certain mons more than others so they are fine nuking the ones they don't like as long as they get to keep their favourite toys to play with. Also to note that this option doesn't completely get rid of the problem of Mead Pass.
TLDR: Imo this option is inconclusive and might create more damage in the long term than the other options.
3 Limit to 1 form of stat-boosting alongside Baton Pass across the whole team
AKA addressing the consequence of the problem.
I think this ABR ban is quite smart and is the 2nd best option in my opinion but personally i don't like it as much as option 4 cause it doesn't address the problem directly(speed pass) but addresses the consequences of the problem(long chains with multiple boosts). This in practice eliminates BP chains just as well as option 4 and has similar collateral but is slightly more complex to understand in the builder and feels more "artificial".
TLDR: Good ban but i prefer option 4.
4 Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Speed Boosts
AKA addressing the source of the problem.
Imo this is the best option because it addresses the source of the problem which is speedpass. Without speedpass nothing that involves BP is remotely broken, because is the ability to outspeed everything is what makes BP teams "uninteractive" and so difficult to deal with unless your team has specific measures that are targeted to break the chain. Without speedpass BP team are very vulnerable to fast revenge killers like Zapdos, Aero, Starmie or setup sweepers like DD Tar and DD Mence. Without speedpass we can unban Mr.Mime, free Bp on Smeargle, unlimit BP to 6 members on a team, and basically instead of having 4 different bans for 1 problem just having 1 ban that directly addresses the problem. The speedpass ban has some collateral, mainly Salac Pass Vaporeon, Speedpass Scizor and Agility BP Zap. I don't think these collateral are a big deal:
- first Salac Vaporeon can be used in the lead slot even with Leftovers, it has still a favourable matchup against lead Ttar, Meta and Mence, but loses the "favourable" matchup against Zapdos, although i think this is true only for low ladder farming because good Zapdos players when they see a lead Vaporeon they click HP Grass turn 1 and Tbolt turn 2 or if they are spdef Zap they can simply Tbolt Turn 1 and Vaporeon will be left just out of Salac range. Overall i think the collateral on Vaporeon is very minor and not a big deal.
- second Speedpass Scizor is cool and not broken so it's unfortunate that it gets nerfed a bit here, but let's remind ourselves that Scizor can run many other sets like double dance sets or endure Salac Reversal sets, so even by eliminating the Speedpassing Scizor sets there is still left plenty to mess around with the steel bug.
- Lastly Agility BP Zapdos gets nuked with this ban which i think overall is a good thing, i always found Zap+Wak to be cheesy and same thing for Zap+belly drummers like Hariyama, Poliwrath & Co. Let's remind ourselves that Agility Zapdos without BP is still legal and a very good Pokemon, you can run Agility+3atks with Drill peck as a great sweeper especially terryfing vs Aero/Celebi teams.
And lastly i want to say that i personally would like to see how good a fullpass team can be without speed pass, maybe it's gonna be good enough to get to 1400 or even 1500 on ladder and i kinda look forward to beating it in an interactive way(with explosions and fast revenge killers insted of trying to get the Roar/Taunt turns right and hoping for the best) .
TLDR: This is my favourite solution because it adresses directly the problem, has very few collaterals and it is also the most straightforward and simple to understand for new people getting into ADV.
5 Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Any Stat Boosts (Drypass only)
AKA overreacting to the problem.
This option is clearly an overreaction cause CM pass, SD pass or Acid armor pass without Speedpass are far from broken. I think this option is mainly for newer gen players that have PTSD and just want to nuke BP from existence.
TLDR: in an ADV context this ban doesn't make any sense.
Thanks for reading it all if you did, i hope my english wasn't too bad
I will be looking at each ban option separetely and arguing the pros and cons of each:
1 Keep Baton Pass as is (Limited to 3 users on a team)
AKA not adressing the problem.
This option imo is for 3 categories of people:
-Boomers who haven't played much in the last year and haven't quite uderstood the brokenness of Mead Pass.
-People who are extremely new to ADV and haven't quite figured out what's broken and what isn't.
-People who are unsatisfied whit the other options and would rather do nothing than pick an option that they don't like(i don't quite get this position personally cause i think the other 4 option pretty much cover the entire spectrum of different approaches to the ban)
TLDR: I think this option is bad cause we need to address the problem.
2 Limit to 2 Baton Pass users on a team and Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Taunt
AKA trying to contain the problem.
People that are in favor of this option want incremental bans that don't really impact the tier too much and want to tackle the problem bit by bit by weakening the power of bp teams overtime. I think this process is quite flawed and here's my reasoning: the previous bp bans have already had a big impact on the tier and by keep adding on "minor" bans we reach a point where all the "minor" bans put together have a bigger impact than 1 "big" ban. For example these people want to preserve Salac pass Vaporeon or Speed pass Scizor or Agility Bp Zapdos+Marowak, but they didn't care for banning Mr.Mime or nuking a lot of Smeargle sets or wanting to eliminate the few uses of Hypno, Mawile, and nuking entirely Mean Look pass Umbreon(which is far from broken). So at the end of the day it comes down to preference for these people, they like certain mons more than others so they are fine nuking the ones they don't like as long as they get to keep their favourite toys to play with. Also to note that this option doesn't completely get rid of the problem of Mead Pass.
TLDR: Imo this option is inconclusive and might create more damage in the long term than the other options.
3 Limit to 1 form of stat-boosting alongside Baton Pass across the whole team
AKA addressing the consequence of the problem.
I think this ABR ban is quite smart and is the 2nd best option in my opinion but personally i don't like it as much as option 4 cause it doesn't address the problem directly(speed pass) but addresses the consequences of the problem(long chains with multiple boosts). This in practice eliminates BP chains just as well as option 4 and has similar collateral but is slightly more complex to understand in the builder and feels more "artificial".
TLDR: Good ban but i prefer option 4.
4 Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Speed Boosts
AKA addressing the source of the problem.
Imo this is the best option because it addresses the source of the problem which is speedpass. Without speedpass nothing that involves BP is remotely broken, because is the ability to outspeed everything is what makes BP teams "uninteractive" and so difficult to deal with unless your team has specific measures that are targeted to break the chain. Without speedpass BP team are very vulnerable to fast revenge killers like Zapdos, Aero, Starmie or setup sweepers like DD Tar and DD Mence. Without speedpass we can unban Mr.Mime, free Bp on Smeargle, unlimit BP to 6 members on a team, and basically instead of having 4 different bans for 1 problem just having 1 ban that directly addresses the problem. The speedpass ban has some collateral, mainly Salac Pass Vaporeon, Speedpass Scizor and Agility BP Zap. I don't think these collateral are a big deal:
- first Salac Vaporeon can be used in the lead slot even with Leftovers, it has still a favourable matchup against lead Ttar, Meta and Mence, but loses the "favourable" matchup against Zapdos, although i think this is true only for low ladder farming because good Zapdos players when they see a lead Vaporeon they click HP Grass turn 1 and Tbolt turn 2 or if they are spdef Zap they can simply Tbolt Turn 1 and Vaporeon will be left just out of Salac range. Overall i think the collateral on Vaporeon is very minor and not a big deal.
- second Speedpass Scizor is cool and not broken so it's unfortunate that it gets nerfed a bit here, but let's remind ourselves that Scizor can run many other sets like double dance sets or endure Salac Reversal sets, so even by eliminating the Speedpassing Scizor sets there is still left plenty to mess around with the steel bug.
- Lastly Agility BP Zapdos gets nuked with this ban which i think overall is a good thing, i always found Zap+Wak to be cheesy and same thing for Zap+belly drummers like Hariyama, Poliwrath & Co. Let's remind ourselves that Agility Zapdos without BP is still legal and a very good Pokemon, you can run Agility+3atks with Drill peck as a great sweeper especially terryfing vs Aero/Celebi teams.
And lastly i want to say that i personally would like to see how good a fullpass team can be without speed pass, maybe it's gonna be good enough to get to 1400 or even 1500 on ladder and i kinda look forward to beating it in an interactive way(with explosions and fast revenge killers insted of trying to get the Roar/Taunt turns right and hoping for the best) .
TLDR: This is my favourite solution because it adresses directly the problem, has very few collaterals and it is also the most straightforward and simple to understand for new people getting into ADV.
5 Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Any Stat Boosts (Drypass only)
AKA overreacting to the problem.
This option is clearly an overreaction cause CM pass, SD pass or Acid armor pass without Speedpass are far from broken. I think this option is mainly for newer gen players that have PTSD and just want to nuke BP from existence.
TLDR: in an ADV context this ban doesn't make any sense.
Thanks for reading it all if you did, i hope my english wasn't too bad
- Status