A Forgotten Threat - Ho-oh Discussion

Jibaku

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Copied over from Project Ubers.



.............................................

HO-OH




In the spirit of the somewhat-newly released Soul Silver and Heart Gold, I'd like to open up a discussion on Ho-oh.

So, Ho-oh has been a largely forgotten Uber in DPPt, and I seek to boost his usage up a bit after discovering how deadly he really is (+ Brave Bird). But before we start, what usually comes into mind when I say "Ho-oh"?

1) Stealth Rock gimps it!
2) What a gimmick...
3) Who uses Ho-oh?
4) Cool Pokemon, but I don't see much use for it unfortunately

So yeah, stop bashing it and actually look into its positive points, which are astoundingly numerous.

Let's start off with its base stats, which are 106 HP / 130 Atk / 90 Def / 110 SAtk / 154 SDef / 90 Spd. Like the other two Pokemon that share the same set of numbers, Lugia and Mewtwo, Ho-oh appreciates this distribution, giving it impressive firepower as well as excellent special bulk. Most people forget about Ho-oh's special defense and get shocked when Ho-oh can take a +2 Dark Pulse from Darkrai and live with >50%, OHKOing it in return. Ho-oh eats Palkia's Scarf Spacial Rends for around 36%, making it a fine counter in the sun as long as Stealth Rock is off the field (which I will cover later), and laughs at Mewtwo's Ice Beams. People often forget how much of a threat this thing is, and sometimes even with rocks on the field, one Roost is all it takes for it to completely kill the opponent.


Ho-oh on the defensive

Ho-oh may not have the best typing in the game, but it is quite unique. Now, before the thought of Stealth Rock comes into mind, let's see what it is weak and resistant to

Resist: 4x Bug, 4x Grass, 2x Fighting, 2x Steel, 2x Fire
Weak: 4x Rock, 2x Water, 2x Electric
Immune: Ground

Now, when we have sunlight out (though, won't be on forever probably due to Kyogre's presence), the Water weakness is eliminated, while Thunder's accuracy is reduced to 50% which sort of eliminates the Electric weakness. That leaves us with Rock to worry about. Isn't that great?

Now let's see what we can use the typing for. With a quad resistance to bug, resistance to Fighting, neutrality to the most dangerous attacking types in Ubers, Ghost, Dragon, and Ice, Ho-oh can be used as a go-to Pokemon to defeat Deoxys-A leads should your lead be at a disadvantageous match up (like Groudon, who could be Grass Knotted). Sure, it'll put up a Stealth Rock and then send out a Pokemon that will scare Ho-oh away, but at least you've gotten rid of the lead, no? Deoxys-A leads can be extremely threatening as they can deal massive damage as well as stop Forretress from spinning by using Fire Punch. Furthermore, they can control the pace of the match by luring out Scarfers and then sending in Wobbuffet to kill it. Using Ho-oh can help break free of that control they try to put on you.

Ho-oh's resistance to Fighting also allows it to stop Mixed Dialga as long as the sunlight is out. While there is no guarantee that the sun will be out, you can make a few predictions and bring the weather in, then bring Ho-oh before it starts causing too much damage. Ho-oh can also stop Mixed Rayquazas that do not carry Outrage (though many do - at least that leaves them open for revenge killing), as it takes about 60% from Life Orb Draco Meteor and can easily Roost off the damage. Finally, as long as Mewtwo doesn't carry Thunder or if it's sunny, Ho-oh can stop it quite handily.

These amazing defensive traits has Ho-oh fit very, very well on stall teams. Ho-oh appreciates the Wish and Rapid Spin support from Blissey and Forretress, respectively, as well as the sunlight support from Groudon. In turn, Ho-oh covers up major commonly seen stall breaking threats such as Darkrai and Mewtwo. Ho-oh also provides the team with some firepower, which we will be discussing next...

Ho-oh on the offensive

Perhaps I should've discussed this first, but Ho-oh's Special Defense is too massive to ignore...

First things first. Ho-oh has a maximum of 394 Attack. That's pretty deadly. Combined with STABed Sacred Fire (probably the best attack in the game, though sadly only learned by him and Smeargle), and Earthquake, plus Life Orb to boost its power, almost nothing in the game could take its assaults lightly. However, even that has changed.

Ho-oh received a new attack in HGSS - Brave Bird. It is a fairly significant addition to its rather pathetic physical movepool, and will be pretty much a staple. The recoil is bad, yes, but the sheer power is much more than enough to compensate for it. It is so strong that with a Life orb boost, it OHKOes no HP/ no Defense Kyogre after Stealth Rock damage. Kyogre has always been Ho-oh's archnemesis in the past, and now it fears to swap in due to that. It can also 3HKO Giratina (beware of how you manage this one, though), and OHKO Lati@s and deal a massive amount to Giratina-O. Furthermore, in the rain, Brave Bird is Ho-oh's only method of really hurting Mewtwo and Darkrai

THE SET

Ho-oh @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Substitute / Earthquake / Whirlwind
- Roost / Recover

The EVs here generate 409 HP / 394 Attack / 224 Speed. This gives Ho-oh maximum amount of power, while maintaining a good amount of HP for overall bulk, 101+ HP Subs, and enough Speed to outrun max Speed TTar (and in the same vein, most defensive Kyogres, Groudons, Bulk Up/support Dialga, Giratina, etc). For those of you that are Life Orb freaks, this minimizes the LO damage too.​

Whirlwind might be an odd thing to use, but with some entry hazards Ho-oh can beat one of its nemesis, Giratina, quite easily. You should use it with Leftovers​

To demonstrate the strength of Ho-oh, here are some calculations (all with Life Orb)​

SACRED FIRE

Max Atk Adamant Ho-oh in sunlight vs 252 HP / no Def Mew under Reflect:
394 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 177 - 208 (43.81% - 51.49%)​

Vs. Max/Max Impish Groudon
394 Atk vs 416 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 198 - 234 (49.01% - 57.92%)​

Vs. Standard Latias
394 Atk vs 216 Def & 329 HP (100 Base Power): 191 - 225 (58.05% - 68.39%)​

Vs. Giratina-O
394 Atk vs 236 Def & 462 HP (100 Base Power): 174 - 206 (37.66% - 44.59%)​

Vs. 0/0 Garchomp
394 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (100 Base Power): 182 - 215 (50.98% - 60.22%)​

Vs. Physically Defensive Mewtwo
394 Atk vs 272 Def & 416 HP (100 Base Power): 301 - 355 (72.36% - 85.34%)​

Vs. 0/0 Hasty Palkia (30 Def IV for legality) (lol)
394 Atk vs 211 Def & 321 HP (100 Base Power): 97 - 114 (30.22% - 35.51%)
Not bad for being quad resisted.​

Vs. 0/0 Dialga
394 Atk vs 276 Def & 341 HP (100 Base Power): 297 - 351 (87.10% - 102.93%)​

Vs. 252/0 Dialga
394 Atk vs 276 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 297 - 351 (73.51% - 86.88%)​

Vs. standard Calm Wobb
394 Atk vs 215 Def & 528 HP (100 Base Power): 382 - 450 (72.35% - 85.23%)​

BRAVE BIRD

Vs. 4/0 Kyogre (Scarf/Specs)
394 Atk vs 216 Def & 342 HP (120 Base Power): 306 - 360 (89.47% - 105.26%)​

Vs. 252/0 Kyogre (Lead/SubCM)
394 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 306 - 360 (75.74% - 89.11%)​

Vs. Standard Bulky Kyogre
394 Atk vs 276 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 238 - 282 (58.91% - 69.80%)​

Vs. 4/0 Timid Palkia
394 Atk vs 236 Def & 322 HP (120 Base Power): 280 - 331 (86.96% - 102.80%)​

Vs. 0/0 Hasty Palkia (30 Def IV)
394 Atk vs 211 Def & 321 HP (120 Base Power): 313 - 370 (97.51% - 115.26%)​

Vs. 0/0 Garchomp
394 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (120 Base Power): 292 - 345 (81.79% - 96.64%)​

Vs. Physically Defensive Mewtwo
394 Atk vs 272 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 244 - 288 (58.65% - 69.23%)​

Vs. Standard Latias
394 Atk vs 216 Def & 329 HP (120 Base Power): 306 - 360 (93.01% - 109.42%)​

Vs. 0/0 Rayquaza
394 Atk vs 216 Def & 351 HP (120 Base Power): 306 - 360 (87.18% - 102.56%)​

Vs. 248/248 Impish Giratina
394 Atk vs 371 Def & 503 HP (120 Base Power): 178 - 211 (35.39% - 41.95%)
(You need to roll 190 damage three times, at minimum, to 3HKO)​




and so on....



<Ho-oh's partners and dealing with Stealth Rock comes later>

Notable Partners:
(Listing them for now)

- Groudon
<sunlight, SR set up, rock resist, electric resist>

- Forretress
<spinner, sets up more entry hazards>

- Deoxys-S
<Taunt to prevent SR from getting on the field, sets up rocks/spikes on its own>

- Blissey
<Wish support, helps against Kyogre to an extent>

- Jirachi
<Wish support, U-turn, Rock resistance I guess>

- Wobbuffet (obviously!)
<duh>

- Palkia/Latias
<Takes Water Spouts>

[STUFF FROM FIREBURN]
Dialga

Dialga and Ho-oh cover each other's weaknesses pefectly, and Dialga is one of the better Giratina counters as well as being able to serve as a makeshift check to Kyogre with Thunder. Dialga is also an excellent stall-breaker, which can help Ho-oh sweep these kinds of teams. A Specs lead can also stop opposing Dialga, Forry, and Groudon from getting up SR, while Ho-oh can stop Deoxys-A leads that may try to Superpower Dialga. (Dialga can also set up SR itself.)

Kyogre?

?

Kyogre may actually seem like a bad teammate for Ho-oh, because the rain accentuates Ho-oh's Water and Electric weaknesses and weakens its Fire STAB. And in these ways it can be, but Bulky RestTalk CM Kyogre can actually sweep quite easily with Ho-oh around. Its main counters include enemy Kyogre, Lati@s, and Palkia, and thanks to Brave Bird, Ho-oh can easily annihilate them, leaving Kyogre free to decimate teams. Bulky RestTalk CM Kyogre in return provides a status absorber (Ho-oh hates status) as well as a Water resist and a counter to the most common users of Rock-type moves in Ubers, that being Tyranitar, Garchomp, and Groudon.

Garchomp

Ho-oh helps weaken stuff like Groudon and Bulky Kyogres so Garchomp can sweep much more easily. Garchomp also provides resistances to Rock and Electric as well as using a combination of Haban Berry and Swords Dance to help lure in and kill things like Palkia and Lati@s, helping Ho-oh sweep. Ho-oh also helps deal with most Steel-types that can stop Garchomp.

Mewtwo and Darkrai

They don't really help Ho-oh aside from countering Giratina, which is quite useful in itself, but Ho-oh helps them out by luring in and mauling Kyogre, Scarf Palkia, and Scarf Dialga, which can let them destroy teams. Ho-oh also annhilates pretty much every Steel-type that can plague them.

[STUFF FROM THEORYMON]
- Mew
(Taunter, sets up Rocks)

-Starmie
(More offensive rapid spinner)

Dealing with SR (if Rapid Spin doesn't suffice):

- Payback Forretress
You can try catching a Giratina-O on the switch via Payback. Giratina-A will annoy you, though, so use the time to set up more entry hazards.

- Wish support
Allows Ho-oh to swap in with current health should SR be on the field.

- Pursuit / Ticklefett
Stuff like Tyranitar can get rid of Giratina-O easily by Pursuiting it to death. Wobbuffet can also Tickle Giratina, then send in Scizor or TTar to Pursuit it.
After that, find an opening to Rapid Spin

- <probably some statistics here>

Other sets

<Scarf, CB, probably some weird subroostphazing set, etc>

Conclusion:
Now that you've read all of this, why don't you try it out yourself? I guarantee you that Ho-oh is an excellent Pokemon - I have gotten two alts with it to the top 5, and Ho-oh is a helpful member there. But enough. Let us discuss Ho-oh's future trends, your experience with it, and more.

 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
I've found that the best way to use Ho-Oh is with a band. I used it for a while, and it ohkos pretty much any switchin faster than it and 2hkos pretty much any switchin slower than it with a Brave Bird or Sacred Fire, except Dialga. I had great success with it but, because I didn't carry a spinner, it could only come in and do its things once. But sometimes even that was enough.
 
Ho-oh is a large threat in Ubers,
and it deserves more usages,
the only major problem it has is without Rapid Spin support,
or a Wish-passer,
it can go down to 50% from one switch into stealth rock,
which really mess's it up.

Other then that one weakness, which in general is all people think about the they hear "Ho-oh", he is one great pokemon, this Warstory is a percect example, http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62214
I have made several Ho-oh based teams, and their were all very successful.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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One thing that definitely needs more testing but I see viability in it: Tailwind. It's awesome to use when you expect random switch-ins and you have big and bad Brave Bird to fuck around with things despite if Rain came up. I'm using Sacred Fire | Brave Bird | Roost | Tailwind @ Sharp Beak due to the lack of Spinners, but hey I got it to work a couple times at least!
 
I'll agree with the effectiveness of Ho-Oh. While its been a while since I played Ubers, I used a Specially defensive Ho-oh with Light Screen. It worked fantastically, as 106 / 154 defenses are insanely difficult to get around - even Kyogre found it difficult to deal with thanks to residual damage from Toxic and Stealth Rock.

I've been wanting to use Ho-oh ever since I learned of its acquisition of Brave Bird. Not only does it KO the likes of Kyogre and Latias, but the likes of Palkia (who takes Sacred Fire well with its 4x resist, especially in Rain) is OHKOd 79.49% of the time with Stealth Rock, provided that Ho-oh is Adamant and carries a LO.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Copy/Pasting from Project Ubers Group, hope Jibbles thinks its ok. ^_^

Couple of other teammates that haven't been mentioned. A few of these are more about what Ho-oh can help sweep rather than what aids Ho-oh in sweeping.

Dialga

Dialga and Ho-oh cover each other's weaknesses pefectly, and Dialga is one of the better Giratina counters as well as being able to serve as a makeshift check to Kyogre with Thunder. Dialga is also an excellent stall-breaker, which can help Ho-oh sweep these kinds of teams. A Specs lead can also stop opposing Dialga, Forry, and Groudon from getting up SR, while Ho-oh can stop Deoxys-A leads that may try to Superpower Dialga. (Dialga can also set up SR itself.)

Kyogre?

?

Kyogre may actually seem like a bad teammate for Ho-oh, because the rain accentuates Ho-oh's Water and Electric weaknesses and weakens its Fire STAB. And in these ways it can be, but Bulky RestTalk CM Kyogre can actually sweep quite easily with Ho-oh around. Its main counters include enemy Kyogre, Lati@s, and Palkia, and thanks to Brave Bird, Ho-oh can easily annihilate them, leaving Kyogre free to decimate teams. Bulky RestTalk CM Kyogre in return provides a status absorber (Ho-oh hates status) as well as a Water resist and a counter to the most common users of Rock-type moves in Ubers, that being Tyranitar, Garchomp, and Groudon.

Garchomp

Ho-oh helps weaken stuff like Groudon and Bulky Kyogres so Garchomp can sweep much more easily. Garchomp also provides resistances to Rock and Electric as well as using a combination of Haban Berry and Swords Dance to help lure in and kill things like Palkia and Lati@s, helping Ho-oh sweep. Ho-oh also helps deal with most Steel-types that can stop Garchomp.

Mewtwo and Darkrai

They don't really help Ho-oh aside from countering Giratina, which is quite useful in itself, but Ho-oh helps them out by luring in and mauling Kyogre, Scarf Palkia, and Scarf Dialga, which can let them destroy teams. Ho-oh also annhilates pretty much every Steel-type that can plague them.
 
I'd like to add Rayquaza to Ho-oh's list of teammates, because he can dish out massive damage, so Ho-oh can finish them off. The SD set can demolish Scarf Palkia and Kyogre, while weakening Giratina, which in itself is valuable. Ho-oh can switch in and take weak ice beams from Lugia, one of Ray's best counters thanks to 154 base SpD. Although this pair suffers from Groudon, as neither likes support Groudon's moveset, expect for earthquake.
 
Also C&P from the discussion thread.

An offensive Life Orb Ho-oh really has the potential to mess up a standard stall team. I was taking my favorite Classical Stall team for a whirl today and came up against an offensive Drought Team with Groudon, Ho-oh, and Starmie, and my Giratina (normal form) was 3HKOed by Brave Bird, which eliminated the possibility of Rest/Sleep Talk stalling. My Groudon was useless without Stone Edge or Toxic (and even then the Ho-oh had Substitute), and the only way I managed to beat the Ho-oh was weakening it, forcing it out with a revenge killer, and beating it on its switch-in to Blissey, and I had to lose Giratina to do so. Once the phoenix gets in, there are very few safe switch-ins.

Ho-oh is probably best on stall or balanced teams as a countermeasure against defensive or offensive teams, depending on the set and given Rapid Spin support. A scarf Ho-oh can be a crucial second line of defence against teams that mass Calm Mind users with its access to Punishment, and it can easily revenge kill Darkrai if necessary. Many players on IRC suggested that I use Garchomp, and I considered it, but I kept Ho-oh for a couple reasons: it stops rival stall teams from coming in with Forry and doing crap that would be inimical to me, since Sacred Fire will fry the bagworm to a crisp. It threatens the enemy's mixed attackers with a Burn status, which lets Blissey proceed to completely wall them. And as was said, it is an excellent switch-in to lead Deoxys-A if my lead is Groudon or Forry.

Ho-oh is a risky Pokemon to employ. But the risk can definitely pay off, since it has the potential to do more than many of the Pokemon who would be filling its role.
 

locopoke

Banned deucer.
(if this wasnt clear enough this is in response to tripe) honestly having 2 sr weak (with one of them being VERY sr weak) pokemon support eachother is risky. once your opponent catches on they can predict one of your switches and if sr has been up then you're fucked, especially with both of them carrying LO and being rather slow.

ho-oh has no counters since nothing can switch into its attacks, it can only be revenged. jirachi actually pairs up pretty well w/ it on paper. it can switch into the occasional stone edge and outrages from band/scarf chomp and it helps ho-oh stay alive by providing wish support.

quagsire pairs well with ho-oh in terms of typing and quagsire is very useful in ubers but you guys probably don't wanna use him so w/e, but he does an amazing job of helping w/ kyogre, encoring giratina at the right moment, etc.
 
(if this wasnt clear enough this is in response to tripe) honestly having 2 sr weak (with one of them being VERY sr weak) pokemon support eachother is risky. once your opponent catches on they can predict one of your switches and if sr has been up then you're fucked, especially with both of them carrying LO and being rather slow.
Loco's right, expect that I'd value the ability to take out Kyogre and Palkia so heavily on a Ho-oh based team that much, that the sr weakness isn't so significant. Rayquaza dies too quickly even without stealth rocks imo.
 
The title of this thread is very, very appropriate. Many people have not battled against or used Ho-oh enough to understand just how dangerous it is. Sacred Fire/Earthquake/Brave Bird is only resisted by Aerodactyl, Lunatone, and Solrock (correct me if I'm wrong), which means that it has flawless coverage in Ubers (not to mention that no Uber resists Flying! EDIT: except Dialga of course, thanks IcyMan28 for pointing that out). Add to that titanic SpDef and solid Def, plus the 47.5% chance of a burn from Sacred Fire, along with 130 base Atk, and you have yourself one AMAZING Pokémon. The only things preventing Ho-oh from being in the top 10 (at least) of usage are (1) 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and (2) Rain being the dominant weather of the tier. Therefore, Forretress and Groudon are pretty much necessities on a team with Ho-oh, which means that if you see a Ho-oh on your opponent's team, you know 2 of his other Pokémon as well. Of course, the level of support required to make Ho-oh shine is certainly worth it IMO, seeing as it can 2HKO virtually everything while being devilishly difficult to take down itself.

One other thing I'd like to mention is this: why not use Recover over Roost? As I understand it, the advantage of using Roost over Recover on Lugia is to remove its weakness to Thunders, Ice Beams, and Stone Edges being fired off by slower Pokémon. Since Ho-oh isn't weak to Ice, that just leaves Thunder and Stone Edge. Of the commonly used Pokémon in Ubers that the standard 224 Spe Ho-oh is faster than, only Support Dialga and maybe some versions of Kyogre are going to have Thunder, while Tyranitar and sometimes Support Groudon carry Stone Edge. Against Dialga and Tyranitar, you might as well just attack with Earthquake; against Groudon, you're still going to have a Rock weakness if you Roost when it Stone Edges (plus you might get hit by an Earthquake), so that really only leaves Kyogre, which will be using Surf anyway. Therefore, I believe Recover is the superior move. I'd like to see what you guys think about this.
 
The title of this thread is very, very appropriate. Many people have not battled against or used Ho-oh enough to understand just how dangerous it is. Sacred Fire/Earthquake/Brave Bird is only resisted by Aerodactyl, Lunatone, and Solrock (correct me if I'm wrong), which means that it has flawless coverage in Ubers (not to mention that no Uber resists Flying!). Add to that titanic SpDef and solid Def, plus the 47.5% chance of a burn from Sacred Fire, along with 130 base Atk, and you have yourself one AMAZING Pokémon. The only things preventing Ho-oh from being in the top 10 (at least) of usage are (1) 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and (2) Rain being the dominant weather of the tier. Therefore, Forretress and Groudon are pretty much necessities on a team with Ho-oh, which means that if you see a Ho-oh on your opponent's team, you know 2 of his other Pokémon as well. Of course, the level of support required to make Ho-oh shine is certainly worth it IMO, seeing as it can 2HKO virtually everything while being devilishly difficult to take down itself.

Agreed. Although Dialga does resist flying, it is crippled Sacred Fire if physical, and destroyed by Earthquake otherwise. Rain being the dominant weather really isn't an issue for Ho-oh anymore. While it seems blasphemous to pass up that delicious STAB Sacred Fire, it could run BB + EQ and cover pretty much everything, other than the odd Skarmory. It really is a great pokemon.

One other thing I'd like to mention is this: why not use Recover over Roost? As I understand it, the advantage of using Roost over Recover on Lugia is to remove its weakness to Thunders, Ice Beams, and Stone Edges being fired off by slower Pokémon. Since Ho-oh isn't weak to Ice, that just leaves Thunder and Stone Edge. Of the commonly used Pokémon in Ubers that the standard 224 Spe Ho-oh is faster than, only Support Dialga and maybe some versions of Kyogre are going to have Thunder, while Tyranitar and sometimes Support Groudon carry Stone Edge. Against Dialga and Tyranitar, you might as well just attack with Earthquake; against Groudon, you're still going to have a Rock weakness if you Roost when it Stone Edges (plus you might get hit by an Earthquake), so that really only leaves Kyogre, which will be using Surf anyway. Therefore, I believe Recover is the superior move. I'd like to see what you guys think about this.
I too, believe Recover is the superior option. Both Tyranitar and Groudon will be wary of switching into the deadly Sacred Fire (especially the latter). Kyogre is KOd by Brave Bird anyway.
 
I hate battling Ho-oh. It is a bitch for special attacking teams to take down cause of the sun weakening fire moves and making thunder practically useless, and thanks in no small part to its colossal special defense. Brave Bird also means that Kyogre can no longer counter it. Anyway I'll stop talking it up now cause I don't want everyone to start using it
 
Ho-oh is annoying. 50% chance of burning keeps things like Lucario and Tyranitar away. SubRecover works well if you've killed Kyogre. You can also use Dual Screens. Very versitile and an underrated threat.
 
After reading this thread, I've realized that I've been using Ho-oh so incorrectly this whole time... I didn't even know Brave Bird OHKOs Kyogre.
 

Jibaku

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OKay after experimenting a bit I would like to propose a new EV spread for offensive Leftovers Ho-oh.

Ho-oh @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 192 HP / 216 Atk / 24 Spd / 76 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Recover / Roost

With this spread, Ho-oh survives a +4 Life Orb Dark Pulse from Darkrai guaranteed. I'm posting this here due to how easy it is for Darkrai to get to +4 and some people might find their Ho-ohs dying to Dark Pulse after that much boost.

Statwise, this gives Ho-oh: 401 HP, 385 Attack, 222 Speed, 363 Special Defense. The speed is there to outrun most slow base 90s such as bulky Kyogre, but you can remove it if you don't need it, or you can sacrifice a little amount of bulk as long as you keep Ho-oh bulky enough to survive Dark Pulse a huge majority of the time, and add more speed. 385 is a skip number from 383.

If you plan to use Substitute, you still need 405 HP though.
 

Fireburn

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Not bad, although you might want 4 more Evs in Speed, just to always outrun standard Bulky Kyogre.

Also, how much does Dark Pulse actually do to that set?
 

Jibaku

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Also, how much does Dark Pulse actually do to that set?

+2 (not Life Orbed) Dark Pulse:

738 Atk vs 363 Def & 401 HP (80 Base Power): 175 - 207 (43.64% - 51.62%)

So you won't get 2HKOed even through max damage on both rounds, just in case one flinches...

+6 (not Life Orbed) Dark Pulse:
1476 Atk vs 363 Def & 401 HP (80 Base Power): 349 - 412 (87.03% - 102.74%)

You have a good chance of surviving a full powered Dark Pulse lol

+4 Life Orb Dark Pulse

1107 Atk vs 363 Def & 401 HP (80 Base Power): 339 - 400 (84.54% - 99.75%)
Obviously...
 
Ho-oh has been insane for me. I've been using a stall-ish team (Forry, Giratina-O, Kyogre, Ho-oh, Latias, Groudon) and it rapes everything. Stall can't do much to it, as Sacred Fire and Brave Bird takes everything out. Notably, Sacred Fire 2HKO's Groudon assuming Sun, while Brave Bird 2HKO's (at worst) Kyogre with an OHKO against offensive versions. Even Giratina-A fails to wall it as Brave Bird is a 3HKO and Ho-oh can Roost off damage from its attacks. Meanwhile, Giratina can't Rest + Sleep Talk before being KOed and it can't burn Ho-oh. Offensive teams stand a better chance against Ho-oh, as they are more capable of dealing with it through revenge killing. Substitute helps here, as it allows Ho-oh to beat faster pokemon that switch in.

I just theorymon'd a more offensive team (Lead Groudon, Taunt CM Mewtwo, Forry, Ho-oh, RestTalk CM Kyogre, Bulk Up Dialga) and I'm interested to see how Ho-oh will perform there.

So far, ho-oh has been almost kyogre like for me, an uber among ubers

edit: also want to point out that i don't have much experience in ubers but i've still been successful with ho-oh
 
Ho-oh is annoying. 50% chance of burning keeps things like Lucario and Tyranitar away. SubRecover works well if you've killed Kyogre. You can also use Dual Screens. Very versitile and an underrated threat.
Who on earth would switch Lucario into Ho-oh directly?

Jibaku, your Ho-oh set looks excellent, looking forward to testing that!

Nice thread!
 
This might be an incentive to use Stealth Rock on my special Hyper Offense team... I was 4-0d by groudon lead + ho-oh. It is so specially bulky that everything had a hard time killing it! I guess having rocks wouldn't have mattered much though because he switched out Groudon for it on the first turn...
 
Wow, what an eye opener! I always loved Ho-Oh just for the design, but I had heard it was a pathetic Uber, next to Manaphy-bad. I guess Brave Bird changed the flaming rainbow turkey quite a bit. Can't wait to see Ho-Oh usage rise!
 

shrang

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I have been using a Groudon and Baton Pass Mew in tandem with Ho-Oh, and Ho-Oh has got to be one of the best Baton Pass receivers ever. After +2 Spe and +2 Atk (Which is actually not that difficult to pass on because people think they can send in Lugia to WW me away instead to get Taunted), Ho-Oh will outspeed and OHKO so many things it is not funny. With 136 Speed EV's, it will outspeed Choice Scarf Garchomp thinking that they can revenge kill me, and anything faster won't.
 

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