Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

[billymills]

I hate to be the guy defending Biden. I had him as last place in my choices for the nomination. But there are bigger things at stake here, and an accountable Biden beats out anything the republicans have to offer.

Democrats eat their own. Even when they're in power. Biden will be on thin ice.

You don't get to pick the issues the candidates have. You get to pick between them.

 

[lilyhollow]

so like, if biden were literally a mass murderer, you'd still vote for either biden or trump? because you 'have to' choose between those two options?

 

[billymills]

so like, if biden were literally a mass murderer, you'd still vote for either biden or trump? because you 'have to' choose between those two options?

You don't have to do anything.

You take the options as presented to do you, and try to figure out what would result in the better outcome over the next 4 years.

I'm not going to argue your image of Biden vs. your image of Trump.

All I'm saying is what the candidates are going to do over the next 12 months should be more important than what they have done in the last 20 years.

 

[lilyhollow]

right, and what i'm saying is, let's say, for argument's sake, that biden murdered hundreds of people over the last 20 years. would you still be committed to this 'take the options as presented to you' strategy? or would you look for an 'option C' of some kind?

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

right, and what i'm saying is, let's say, for argument's sake, that biden murdered hundreds of people over the last 20 years. would you still be committed to this 'take the options as presented to you' strategy? or would you look for an 'option C' of some kind?

I picked Option C once. This was in the 2016 election, where I voted for Gary Johnson.

It's good to constantly talk about wanting more options, but the issue is that the way our electoral system is set up means that third party candidates are doomed from the start. Anybody who isn't in either first place or second place gets derided as a potential spoiler candidate (or as just an outright spoiler when things like the 2000 election happen with Bush winning Florida by 537 votes). Until our election system changes to one less vulnerable to the spoiler effect, the potential of third party candidates to spoil an election for a candidate is going to remain an obstacle in the way of widespread third party support.

Also, I think now would be a good time to point out that you're strawmanning this whole thing. If we had evidence Joe Biden was a serial killer, I highly doubt he would be the presumptive nominee at this point.

 

[billymills]

right, and what i'm saying is, let's say, for argument's sake, that biden murdered hundreds of people over the last 20 years. would you still be committed to this 'take the options as presented to you' strategy? or would you look for an 'option C' of some kind?

I mean

I voted green last federal election. And voted third party the one before that, and the one before that.

But that's because candidates from all sides were not fighting against the very concept of democracy.

I'm pretty damn dedicated to changing the electoral system, but not in the way Trump wants. Which is the question up for debate this election.

 

[billymills]

Also, I think now would be a good time to point out that you're strawmanning this whole thing. If we had evidence Joe Biden was a serial killer, I highly doubt he would be the presumptive nominee at this point.

idk man the zodiak killer got pretty close in 2016

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

idk man the zodiak killer got pretty close in 2016

okay I walked right into this one

 

[lilyhollow]

Also, I think now would be a good time to point out that you're strawmanning this whole thing. If we had evidence Joe Biden was a serial killer, I highly doubt he would be the presumptive nominee at this point

it is not a strawman though. what i'm asking is if there's some limit to how awful two candidates can be before it becomes clear that participating in the system at all is a farce that accomplishes nothing.

But that's because candidates from all sides were not fighting against the very concept of democracy.

doesn't the fact that we're even having this discussion kind of say a lot about the state of US 'democracy'? like i get that trump is supposed to be this unprecedented threat to our 'democracy,' but what is it that got us here in the first place? trump is not some aberration. we are consistently having elections where the main two options are "guy who wants to bomb the shit out of other countries and fuck over poor people" and "guy who wants to do all of that but is sneakier when lying about it." i think it's been that exact situation like, literally every time for the entirety of my lifetime. i'm not getting how we're supposed to be voting our way out of this.

 

[Myzozoa]

I picked Option C once. This was in the 2016 election, where I voted for Gary Johnson.

or maybe option c is organizing a leftist/lgbtq gun club or a mutual aid network in your neighborhood related to coronavirus or rent strike and not voting for "where is aleppo" guy

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

or maybe option c is organizing a leftist/lgbtq gun club or a mutual aid network in your neighborhood related to coronavirus or rent strike and not voting for "where is aleppo" guy

At the time, I preferred "where is aleppo" guy over Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. If you're gonna keep targeting me with shit like this then I'm just gonna hit the "ignore" button and be done with your shit

 

[billymills]

Myzo brings up a good point.
If your fighting the system consists of voting off brand every 4 years, you're not really trying.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Myzo brings up a good point.
If your fighting the system consists of voting off brand every 4 years, you're not really trying.

"Every four years?" 2016 was literally the first presidential election I was eligible to vote in. I was 17 years old in 2012.

 

[billymills]

"Every four years?" 2016 was literally the first presidential election I was eligible to vote in. I was 17 years old in 2012.

what have you done since the election?

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

what have you done since the election?

Since then, I've stopped voting for third party candidates because I acknowledge that they have no serious shot of winning and only take votes away from major party candidates who can actually accomplish some level of meaningful change

 

[billymills]

Since then, I've stopped voting for third party candidates because I acknowledge that they have no serious shot of winning and only take votes away from major party candidates who can actually accomplish some level of meaningful change

I hope you realise that's just thinking about doing anything

 

[MikeDawg]

so like, if biden were literally a mass murderer, you'd still vote for either biden or trump? because you 'have to' choose between those two options?

If Biden were a mass murderer, he wouldn't be the nominee.

 

[orch]

If Biden were a mass murderer, he wouldn't be the nominee.

Biden was the vice president of the administration that killed approximately 2,500 Americans and 2,500 Iraqi and Afghans. Biden had the Commander in the Chief's direct attention and could have prevented these lost lives.

 

[Finchinator]

Biden was the vice president of the administration that killed approximately 2,500 Americans and 2,500 Iraqi and Afghans. Biden had the Commander in the Chief's direct attention and could have prevented these lost lives.

I never ever post in these threads, but likening Joe Biden, who has plenty of valid flaws as a candidate to use against him, to a mass murderer is the most ridiculous stretch of an argument.

Trump is ruining the country on a day-to-day basis and instead of unifying against this, we are playing directly into his hands by making these sort of outlandish claims.

 

[orch]

Finchinator
How is it a stretch? Obama was the head of the military that killed about 5,000 people. Biden was the second in that system.

Am I wrong about the structure of military and who have the power to direct it? Please clarify why it's a stretch.

In my opinion, being a mass murderer is not a disqualification for someone to become a president as shown by the history. What was the point of your blind partisan politics?

 

[politics understander]

I never ever post in these threads, but likening Joe Biden, who has plenty of valid flaws as a candidate to use against him, to a mass murderer is the most ridiculous stretch of an argument.

Trump is ruining the country on a day-to-day basis and instead of unifying against this, we are playing directly into his hands by making these sort of outlandish claims.

You're so afraid of trump you miss the forest for the trees. Trump has not started any wars in his term. Biden and Obama have. This is the only point being made and literally no one in america is sitting on the fence between trump and biden so stop worrying so much that you might lose voters to him.

At this point all discourse on here is just an academic challenge to see if liberals are capable of feeling even a hint of sadness when they hear the words "biden's actions have killed tens of thousands of civilians" which is provable in a single google search. But judging by the explosive reaction your first instinct was to be defensive instead.

 

[UncleSam]

I'll bite on this.

I never believed Tara Reade. It smelled like BS from the beginning. If Obama's suit color was worthy of scandal, surely a rape allegation against his VP would come forward. But you know.. timing is everything ;)

Not gonna lie, these sound like exactly the kinda of things Republicans said about Blasey-Ford after she accused Kavanaugh.

‘Surely this would’ve come up earlier, convenient timing’, ‘lack of detail, smells like BS’, etc.

Personally I think one should be consistent between the two cases. Either rape allegations made by credible women willing to stand before a camera and accuse their attacker are or are not subject to standard due process when it comes to politics. The two cases are very similar in that both happened a long time ago and any hope of substantive proof that might be brought forth to substantiate the accusation In a court of law has long since passed. Instead both parties seem to believe the people on their side should be given due process as if it were a criminal court of law and the other side should be condemned and thrown in prison on the spot.

 

[Finchinator]

You're so afraid of trump you miss the forest for the trees. Trump has not started any wars in his term. Biden and Obama have. This is the only point being made and literally no one in america is sitting on the fence between trump and biden so stop worrying so much that you might lose voters to him.

At this point all discourse on here is just an academic challenge to see if liberals are capable of feeling even a hint of sadness when they hear the words "biden's actions have killed tens of thousands of civilians" which is provable in a single google search. But judging by the explosive reaction your first instinct was to be defensive instead.

I'm not exactly a liberal and I'm hardly a democrat at this point honestly, but the fact that you blindly assume that off of a brief post and then proceed to make a sweeping claim honestly outlines a lot of what turns me off about these type of threads and why I seldom contribute to them despite contributing to virtually every other part of Smogon.

I refuse to get caught up in any debate or respond to posts laced in ad hominem, which this will undoubtedly devolve into if I respond beyond this, so I will simply state this: in my eyes, Trump is an evil that this country needs to vote out of office for a whole plethora of reasons, including the preservation of some of our most fundamental rights. Biden is a far cry from an ideal candidate, but he will not endanger the parts of America we know and love (if they are even still present by the end of 2020). I know of plenty of allegations directed towards Biden, some of which hold a lot of validity, but he is not a mass murderer and he is a saint when compared to the alternative.

 

[orch]

Why the denial? It's routine and customary for Americans to elect mass murderers.

 

[lilyhollow]

he will not endanger the parts of America we know and love

I'm blanking on what these are even supposed to be. In general it is very rare that I see anyone point to anything specifically good about Biden. Just 'he is way better than Trump, trust me.'