Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

[RaikouLover]

I can see you obviously cherry-picked, I specifically said it was the lesser of two evils argument meaning while Biden may be better he he is almost less preferable because of another reason you obviously didn't read. Many people don't want to see our party becoming a Bill Clinton Party all over again. I could state that in different terms of course if you didn't understand the first time. Despite what you think hardcore Bernie supporters actually aren't trump supporters they're just too "Extreme to be called democrats" which is nonsense. Want a higher minimum wage like every other country in the world, too bad we say, just continue to get profited off of your boss at McDonald's. The Main Reason why Biden is less preferable is simply so our party doesn't become more moderate in a time where tougher measures need to be taken. Like the guy that I quoted was saying it is better to wait to make a final last push against big things like climate change and racism instead of making a flimsy push that will be replaced with a Republican when we most need a reliable Democrat.

I understand the argument- Biden is better than Trump, My couch would even be a better president than Trump. But voting Biden could do considerable damage to our party which most people just look straight over. And considering his horrible voting numbers on this page most people don't have any enthusiasm for him whatsoever(No one that would be good for president just gets lower than Tulsi Gabbard(I can say however that Pete Buttigeg probably would've been 100x worse ))

No, those were your exact words - "Trump is almost preferable to Biden." There is no spin out of that. The direction of the United States on November 4, 2020 is more important than the progressive street cred of the Democratic Party.

Exactly, his whole platform is I can beat Trump, once he does that he might have plans for climate change and other problems, but those plans probably aren't going to do shit. He clearly doesn't have a plan for anything else, as he still hasn't stated what he is going to do about such major problems. He just says that he has the plans. Following a recent thing I talked about is if he picks a young progressive to be his VP that person could be like the actual brain of the presidency and Joe Biden is still the face of it, which is still bad but progressive things could actually get done. As I said, in the Dick Cheney-George W Bush presidency, George W Bush was like Biden, not in touch with the world, and Dick Cheney was like the hidden brain of the presidency doing many horrible things that are all attributed to George W Bush. If we could form a progressive form of this it would still satisfy the Biden supporters while all the progressive things that needed to get done are still done. The downside of this is all the good things get attributed to Biden further increasing the moderate voter-base which would suck quite a lot. What do you guys think?

Dude the President isn't as influential in policy-making as you're suggest. The difference between a "moderate" Democrat and a "progressive" Democrat in actual governing has little to do with ideology and more to do with how good of a deal maker that particular person is. Nancy Pelosi and whomever the Senate Majority Leader is run the ship legislatively; the President is just an advocate.

As for not getting anything done - there are over 400 bills sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk. They'll continue to collect dust as long as he is Senate Majority Leader. We can do the rhetorical circle jerk all day long but it won't change that reality. Elections have consequences.

Biden's victory in the primaries is just a demonstration that you could literally make zero concessions to progressives despite a huge grassroots excited progressive energy and big support among democrats for progressive policies. You could literally say "fuck you" to what is not only popular but drastically necessary (M4A, fixing climate problems, etc).

What makes "progressives" entitled to big support for "progressive policies" when they couldn't even get 40% of the primary vote? All that energy sure as hell didn't translate into votes. Just to put that in perspective, if it were the Senate "progressives" wouldn't even be able to filibuster.

 

[termi]

No, those were your exact words - "Trump is almost preferable to Biden." There is no spin out of that. The direction of the United States on November 4, 2020 is more important than the progressive street cred of the Democratic Party.

do u know what the word "almost" means?

Dude the President isn't as influential in policy-making as you're suggest. The difference between a "moderate" Democrat and a "progressive" Democrat in actual governing has little to do with ideology and more to do with how good of a deal maker that particular person is. Nancy Pelosi and whomever the Senate Majority Leader is run the ship legislatively; the President is just an advocate.

if the president is "just an advocate" then why should people consider trump to be some kind of imminent and unique threat to america? :^)

 

[Myzozoa]

This may be true, but neolibs are not the only democrats. I am assuming (and I may be wrong) that progressive democrats have a far greater chance of working with the Biden administration to get concessions on issues like Climate Change and Medicare for All than with the Trump administration.
The movement does not live or die with the presidency and the fact that Bernie endorsed Biden seemed to signal that to me. Remember that we elected many young and progressive Democrats to the House of Representatives in 2018 midterm elections.

I don't see why the neolibs who influenced the Democratic party to prop up Clinton and Biden will try to change tactics and go for a non-establishment candidate next time if they lose. It didnt happen in 2016, and it probably won't happen this time.

idgi the establishment aren't gonna change their tune if they lose another election, but they also have the potential to be pressured on climate change and m4a by progressives if they win? idk man seems like theres something that doesnt add up within these claims.

it's amazing, to me, that after clinton -> bush jr and 8 years of neoliberalism followed by the impolite trump version of neoliberalism (we could also throw in labour 74'->thatcher if you want to think about this in other countries) people still think the hollowing out of the left in order to maintain the status quo isn't gonna lead people to turn to far-right politics for the promise of change. Based on recent political events, it will be trans ppl, poor ppl, and latinos and people outside of the US who have to pay the pound of flesh when the masses in America turn to an authoritarian who promises to upheave the status quo. voters tried to play off each other by picking someone safe, but it can only turn out as a disaster: for all trumps bluster and denigration of marginalized groups on twitter, hate crimes are down against anyone who isnt trans and/or latino. The fact that people are still willing to oppose trump in public shows that paramilitary groups aren't about to round up political opponents, and he's deported less ppl than Obama did mainly due to his own incompetence (the irony is that if he were just more civil ala a corporate democrat, the judiciary would be happy to go along w his deportation agenda).

anyway, I will probably be voting for Biden just for supreme court nomination, but even saying that is dishonest and ignores the longterm consequences of the hollowing out of the left, which is why in the meantime I plan on being extremely honest about the realities of the choice we've been given and how terrible Biden in fact is. It is tempting to think that just the fact of a democrat in the presidency means the left achieves some type of discoursive hegemony advantage in local and institutional politics, but this is not my experience working for local institutional changes during the Obama administration, instead it'll be the same sort of battle against variations of the neoliberals, who will in fact continue to enjoy the hegemony of neoliberalism in local discourses.

tl-dr the choice between biden and trump is more depressing than it is exciting.

 

[TexanSansei]

No, those were your exact words - "Trump is almost preferable to Biden." There is no spin out of that. The direction of the United States on November 4, 2020 is more important than the progressive street cred of the Democratic Party.



Dude the President isn't as influential in policy-making as you're suggest. The difference between a "moderate" Democrat and a "progressive" Democrat in actual governing has little to do with ideology and more to do with how good of a deal maker that particular person is. Nancy Pelosi and whomever the Senate Majority Leader is run the ship legislatively; the President is just an advocate.

As for not getting anything done - there are over 400 bills sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk. They'll continue to collect dust as long as he is Senate Majority Leader. We can do the rhetorical circle jerk all day long but it won't change that reality. Elections have consequences.



What makes "progressives" entitled to big support for "progressive policies" when they couldn't even get 40% of the primary vote? All that energy sure as hell didn't translate into votes. Just to put that in perspective, if it were the Senate "progressives" wouldn't even be able to filibuster.

I'm getting quite tired of your digitally yelling at people who want change as opposed to people that at least can polite-fully disagree. Your "street-cred" that your talking about is pretty important for the nation's future. The president most always reflects the people's beliefs. If we push for a democratic party that is always just barely better than the republican party right now, we will be more likely to get that again later on.

As for the "progressive policies" you mentioned, let's go a bit off subject, why wouldn't those policies deserve big support. Care to elaborate on how you would like the minimum wage to be paycheck to paycheck? What's that "What makes "progressives" entitled to big support for "progressive policies" when they couldn't even get 40% of the primary vote? All that energy sure as hell didn't translate into votes." I see that you don't believe that we should make our nation better solely based on the fact that not many people voted for it. Your sure as hell arguing for Biden even though he has 7.7 vote percentage on this forum as opposed to you know, a guy who has "progressive policies" and a 62.2 percentage vote. All your energy sure as hell didn't translate to votes here bub. Care to say why that is? Also bring up why we shouldn't fight for a better America even if the better side is on the lower end of the 40% vote you mentioned. I could also do this all day, but with one clear difference, Your the only one digitally yelling at us progressives, anyone that agrees with you is polite-fully disagreeing at least, while I have seen people arguing by my side or at least on the side of my points.

I really would like to thank termi for recently questioning your points and Machoke for also bringing up points I didn't mention.

Edit:Myzozoa you bring up a great point about the hollowing out of the left. I think that is a valid concern that we should all continue looking at.

 

[RaikouLover]

do u know what the word "almost" means?

Yes.

if the president is "just an advocate" then why should people consider trump to be some kind of imminent and unique threat to america? :^)

Read with precision. Legislatively, the President is merely an advocate. His affect on the United States is mostly cultural and foreign policy, of which Trump is a complete disaster.

I'm getting quite tired of your digitally yelling at people who want change as opposed to people that at least can polite-fully disagree. Your "street-cred" that your talking about is pretty important for the nation's future. The president most always reflects the people's beliefs. If we push for a democratic party that is always just barely better than the republican party right now, we will be more likely to get that again later on.

This point doesn't make sense; everyone voting against Trump in November wants change.

As for the "progressive policies" you mentioned, let's go a bit off subject, why wouldn't those policies deserve big support. Care to elaborate on how you would like the minimum wage to be paycheck to paycheck? What's that "What makes "progressives" entitled to big support for "progressive policies" when they couldn't even get 40% of the primary vote? All that energy sure as hell didn't translate into votes." I see that you don't believe that we should make our nation better solely based on the fact that not many people voted for it. Your sure as hell arguing for Biden even though he has 7.7 vote percentage on this forum as opposed to you know, a guy who has "progressive policies" and a 62.2 percentage vote. All your energy sure as hell didn't translate to votes here bub. Care to say why that is? Also bring up why we shouldn't fight for a better America even if the better side is on the lower end of the 40% vote you mentioned. I could also do this all day, but with one clear difference, Your the only one digitally yelling at us progressives, anyone that agrees with you is polite-fully disagreeing at least, while I have seen people arguing by my side or at least on the side of my points.

"Progressives" and "progressive policies" are in quotes for a reason. There is a false dichotomy among the "progressive left" that everyone who doesn't agree with Bernie Sanders on 100% of issues is not "progressive." If you look through the primary data, most Democrats (over 50% in all polls) agreed with every single one of Bernie Sanders' policy positions, yet he still didn't earn anywhere near the vote share. I actually supported Warren before she dropped but will happily cast my primary vote for Biden assuming my state even still has a primary. But this "only Bernie is a progressive" argument has always been bullshit and at this point it is tiresome.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

This point doesn't make sense; everyone voting against Trump in November wants change.

"nothing will fundamentally change" ~ joe biden, june 2019

please don't try and pretend that biden is the harbinger of some great political upheaval - by his own admission, he is not. the democratic party at present is a mess.

 

[Sam]

you can repeat that line all you want but it does not mean what you think it means

 

[BP]

you can repeat that line all you want but it does not mean what you think it means

Enlighten me

 

[Machoke]

What makes "progressives" entitled to big support for "progressive policies" when they couldn't even get 40% of the primary vote? All that energy sure as hell didn't translate into votes. Just to put that in perspective, if it were the Senate "progressives" wouldn't even be able to filibuster.

Literally I don't care if 1% of the party supports single payer healthcare for all or if 99% supports it. It's still very long overdue while people are dying cuz they dont have healthcare or cant afford it or both. But yeah keep pwning the bernie broz by putting the words progressive policies in quotes! hell yeah screw all those people who want poor people and the uninsured to be able to have single payer healthcare for all in the middle of a pandemic!

 

[Dece1t]

Literally I don't care if 1% of the party supports single payer healthcare for all or if 99% supports it. It's still very long overdue while people are dying cuz they dont have healthcare or cant afford it or both. But yeah keep pwning the bernie broz by putting the words progressive policies in quotes! hell yeah screw all those people who want poor people and the uninsured to be able to have single payer healthcare for all in the middle of a pandemic!

Have you heard of Charity care? Just saying.

 

[billymills]

you can repeat that line all you want but it does not mean what you think it means

You can spin it all you want but Joe Biden saying "Nothing will fundamentally change" is a blunder no matter how you look at it.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Can someone enlighten me on how this doesn't mean what I think it means (i.e he's explicitly promising not to tax the wealthiest noticably more and not to make any significant changes to how US now functions, and he's promising "not to let them down" lmao)

 

[atomicllamas]

Can someone enlighten me on how this doesn't mean what I think it means (i.e he's explicitly promising not to tax the wealthiest noticably more and not to make any significant changes to how US now functions, and he's promising "not to let them down" lmao)

He’s saying that the wealthy are going to pay more taxes but that “nothing will fundamentally change” with their standard of living. That’s why he mentions too large of wealth inequality will lead to societal instability.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...olitics/2019/12/5/20995225/joe-biden-tax-plan

Obviously his plans don’t go as far as Warren/Sanders but his plan increases taxes on the wealthy and corporations to higher levels than 2016, which is a step in the right direction.

Biden was no where near my first choice but, I think Sam’s point is taking a quote that’s saying “your taxes are going to increase but you’re rich so you won’t feel it” as “nothing at all in society will be different if I’m president” and constantly parroting that is misleading if not straight up deceitful. There are enough genuine criticisms of Biden that you don’t need to be making shit up.

 

[RaikouLover]

"nothing will fundamentally change" ~ joe biden, june 2019

please don't try and pretend that biden is the harbinger of some great political upheaval - by his own admission, he is not. the democratic party at present is a mess.

Change in this context means back to respecting science, democratic institutions, and the office of the Presidency. Also known as responsible governance. It doesn't mean political revolution.

EDIT: Post above me addressed this perfectly.

Literally I don't care if 1% of the party supports single payer healthcare for all or if 99% supports it. It's still very long overdue while people are dying cuz they dont have healthcare or cant afford it or both. But yeah keep pwning the bernie broz by putting the words progressive policies in quotes! hell yeah screw all those people who want poor people and the uninsured to be able to have single payer healthcare for all in the middle of a pandemic!

This is a strawman argument. As I said right in the post you quoted, the majority of Democrats including those who voted for Biden support "progressive policies" such as single payer health care!

 

[TexanSansei]

Yes.



Read with precision. Legislatively, the President is merely an advocate. His affect on the United States is mostly cultural and foreign policy, of which Trump is a complete disaster.



This point doesn't make sense; everyone voting against Trump in November wants change.



"Progressives" and "progressive policies" are in quotes for a reason. There is a false dichotomy among the "progressive left" that everyone who doesn't agree with Bernie Sanders on 100% of issues is not "progressive." If you look through the primary data, most Democrats (over 50% in all polls) agreed with every single one of Bernie Sanders' policy positions, yet he still didn't earn anywhere near the vote share. I actually supported Warren before she dropped but will happily cast my primary vote for Biden assuming my state even still has a primary. But this "only Bernie is a progressive" argument has always been bullshit and at this point it is tiresome.

What Change do you want? Climate change, Income Change, anything at all will either be a slowed or a nonexistent attempt by Biden
What your not getting is that Warren and Bernie did actually have different propositions and so would you rather have a better progressive or a worse progressive.

you can repeat that line all you want but it does not mean what you think it means

Tell us what will change then, he is right in saying that nothing will fundamentally change because that is the truth. As I said to the other guy, any changes that Biden may make will be slowed in some areas like Climate Change, and nonexistent in areas like higher wages.

Have you heard of Charity care? Just saying.

You think Charity Care can support I don't know 22 Million Unemployed Americans. That's a lot of people and it wouldn't do justice to just be like well some might get Charity Care but the others are still probably fine.

You can spin it all you want but Joe Biden saying "Nothing will fundamentally change" is a blunder no matter how you look at it.

You being the third person to push this message recently I ask you to provide proof on what will change in what areas. If you need proof saying that nothing will change then just ask, and I will provide proof.

He’s saying that the wealthy are going to pay more taxes but that “nothing will fundamentally change” with their standard of living. That’s why he mentions too large of wealth inequality will lead to societal instability.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...olitics/2019/12/5/20995225/joe-biden-tax-plan

Obviously his plans don’t go as far as Warren/Sanders but his plan increases taxes on the wealthy and corporations to higher levels than 2016, which is a step in the right direction.

Biden was no where near my first choice but, I think Sam’s point is taking a quote that’s saying “your taxes are going to increase but you’re rich so you won’t feel it” as “nothing at all in society will be different if I’m president” and constantly parroting that is misleading if not straight up deceitful. There are enough genuine criticisms of Biden that you don’t need to be making shit up.

People are saying nothing will be different for a multitude of reasons explain this. Biden finally being honest about his health care plan: “We’ll make sure it’s not quality, we’ll make sure it’s only affordable.”

Change in this context means back to respecting science, democratic institutions, and the office of the Presidency. Also known as responsible governance. It doesn't mean political revolution.

EDIT: Post above me addressed this perfectly.



This is a strawman argument. As I said right in the post you quoted, the majority of Democrats including those who voted for Biden support "progressive policies" such as single payer health care!

No where in your "Change in this context means back to respecting science, democratic institutions, and the office of the Presidency. Also known as responsible governance. It doesn't mean political revolution." do I see anything that would relate to raising minimum wage. The vaguest thing it has to with science is, I don't know, raising the minimum wage would obviously raise the economy. But apparently Joe Biden doesn't want that.

Edit: Apparently because you find reason with the post above yours also feel free to explain this quote
Biden finally being honest about his health care plan: “We’ll make sure it’s not quality, we’ll make sure it’s only affordable.”
Most people don't think change will come not just for one reason, that would be idiotic, most people think change won't come because a multitude of reasons in different areas such as healthcare, taxing which the guy above you pointed out correctly, Race, Immigration, Foreign Policy, Criminal Justice and Drugs, LGBTQ+, Economy, Climate Change, Education, and Labor and trade. People are worried that he will stick with old and possibly unjust rules instead of fixing those rules.

How I feel after I criticize like every post on this page.

 

[atomicllamas]

What Change do you want? Climate change, Income Change, anything at all will either be a slowed or a nonexistent attempt by Biden
What your not getting is that Warren and Bernie did actually have different propositions and so would you rather have a better progressive or a worse progressive.


Tell us what will change then, he is right in saying that nothing will fundamentally change because that is the truth. As I said to the other guy, any changes that Biden may make will be slowed in some areas like Climate Change, and nonexistent in areas like higher wages.



You think Charity Care can support I don't know 22 Million Unemployed Americans. That's a lot of people and it wouldn't do justice to just be like well some might get Charity Care but the others are still probably fine.



You being the third person to push this message recently I ask you to provide proof on what will change in what areas. If you need proof saying that nothing will change then just ask, and I will provide proof.


People are saying nothing will be different for a multitude of reasons explain this. Biden finally being honest about his health care plan: “We’ll make sure it’s not quality, we’ll make sure it’s only affordable.”


No where in your "Change in this context means back to respecting science, democratic institutions, and the office of the Presidency. Also known as responsible governance. It doesn't mean political revolution." do I see anything that would relate to raising minimum wage. The vaguest thing it has to with science is, I don't know, raising the minimum wage would obviously raise the economy. But apparently Joe Biden doesn't want that.

Alright, I suggest you actually look at Joe Biden’s platform because he is running on a platform that includes a $15 minimum wage, 2 years free college, and increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy. He also has policy plans to increase healthcare coverage and address climate change. I don’t think the environmental, healthcare, or tax plans go far enough, but all are to the left of 2016. I’m not convinced Joe Biden is going to be the most effective at getting these passed, but if even 1 does, I don’t see how we aren’t way better off with that 1 thing + Supreme Court justices and other judges that aren’t part of the federalist society cult. Very few people on this forum are going to argue Joe Biden was the best choice given the demographics of this forum vs the average Joe voter. But repeating an out of context quote that doesn’t actually mean what you’re saying isn’t valid criticism (neither is arguing he doesn’t think raising the minimum wage is a good thing when a $15 minimum wage is literally in his platform btw). That’s why I responded to the post, there are plenty of valid criticisms of Biden’s policies, but some of the posters in this thread need to get a fucking grip, if you think Biden and Trump are running on the same platform (or even similar platforms) you are uninformed.

 

[UncleSam]

Biden is only going to be president for four years, and he is just going to try to emulate Obama as much as he can. I don’t really see the harm in voting for him from any perspective other than those who support Republican policies obviously. He’s not going to ‘do damage to the Democratic party’ by winning a presidential election as a Democrat lol

 

[billymills]

You being the third person to push this message recently I ask you to provide proof on what will change in what areas. If you need proof saying that nothing will change then just ask, and I will provide proof.

You have no idea what I was saying do you.

 

[TexanSansei]

You have no idea what I was saying do you.

Oh geez I assumed a lot of stuff so I took a look at the post again. Sorry for my mishap

Biden is only going to be president for four years, and he is just going to try to emulate Obama as much as he can. I don’t really see the harm in voting for him from any perspective other than those who support Republican policies obviously. He’s not going to ‘do damage to the Democratic party’ by winning a presidential election as a Democrat lol

I just meant with all his blunders and moderate stuff and all that that he might set a bad example for future candidates, of course no one would probably see him as the role model for president but it's still a valid concern.

Alright, I suggest you actually look at Joe Biden’s platform because he is running on a platform that includes a $15 minimum wage, 2 years free college, and increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy. He also has policy plans to increase healthcare coverage and address climate change. I don’t think the environmental, healthcare, or tax plans go far enough, but all are to the left of 2016. I’m not convinced Joe Biden is going to be the most effective at getting these passed, but if even 1 does, I don’t see how we aren’t way better off with that 1 thing + Supreme Court justices and other judges that aren’t part of the federalist society cult. Very few people on this forum are going to argue Joe Biden was the best choice given the demographics of this forum vs the average Joe voter. But repeating an out of context quote that doesn’t actually mean what you’re saying isn’t valid criticism (neither is arguing he doesn’t think raising the minimum wage is a good thing when a $15 minimum wage is literally in his platform btw). That’s why I responded to the post, there are plenty of valid criticisms of Biden’s policies, but some of the posters in this thread need to get a fucking grip, if you think Biden and Trump are running on the same platform (or even similar platforms) you are uninformed.

Yes I understand your point, I just guess I'm getting too caught up in how he'l look as a role model for future candidates if he doesn't do enough good stuff and that we'l get some shitty democrat after him.

Right so I think I'm coming off as a bit too aggressive and got ahead of myself a bit too much causing mistakes while I was reading some posts. Ex- billymills post. Ima take a three day break and do some Overwatch and stuff to clear my head so I can get a fresher take on this forum. I do not regret some posts I made but I certainly think I was being a bit too excessive on replying to like every post.
(Don't bully the other progressives while I'm gone cause that's just mean) :/

 

[ManOfMany]

I have yet to see a convincing argument that not voting for Biden will spur the party in a more progressive direction. What I envision is that moderate Democrats will simply say "he lost but still did better than Bernie" and continue to go for the ideology in which they are more inclined. If we want to convince people democratic socialist policies are beneficial it will have to be continuing the grassroots movement where we de-stigmatize the idea of wealth distribution. This movement doesn't live or die with voting for the President.

Look, I don't like Biden. I recognize that he would likely be an establishment President like the line of Presidents before him in many ways (deportations, drone strikes, soft on big corporations, etc). But on the biggest issues, it is clear to me he is decidedly better than Trump.

I believe environmental destruction is the single most important issue because it is an existential crisis. This includes not only warming temperatures and the coastal flooding associated with it, but dealing with the collapse of species, serious air and water pollution issues (being able to pressure major polluters like China and India), overpopulation, degradation of land through unsustainable agriculture and overfishing. This should be your primary concern as well.

Biden, to his credit does have a serious plan on his platform to address climate change. He appears to be serious about transforming our fossil fuel dependence into renewable energy. With the support of a Democratic Congress, they might be able to pass important environmental protection legislation and roll back on Trump's weakening of the EPA. I think sustainability concerns cannot be fully addressed without going full Green New Deal, but we cannot afford another 4 years of waiting and hoping next time we will get a Bernie. We are on a timer here.

I could vote for the Green Party out of principle, and I still might. If they get enough votes they might be able to pressure to adopt more environmental policies to their platform. But I don't really believe they will have any sway on Trump if he wins, and perhaps it would be more wise on voting Biden and then pressuring local Congress

 

[Chou Toshio]

 

[MikeDawg]

Now that Bernie is a certified closet-Republican, who will his fans turn to next? Is that one dude still running against Pelosi?

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

i missed u mikedawg

 

[Myzozoa]

deep sigh

I have yet to see a convincing argument that not voting for Biden will spur the party in a more progressive direction. What I envision is that moderate Democrats will simply say "he lost but still did better than Bernie" and continue to go for the ideology in which they are more inclined. If we want to convince people democratic socialist policies are beneficial it will have to be continuing the grassroots movement where we de-stigmatize the idea of wealth distribution. This movement doesn't live or die with voting for the President.

Look, I don't like Biden. I recognize that he would likely be an establishment President like the line of Presidents before him in many ways (deportations, drone strikes, soft on big corporations, etc). But on the biggest issues, it is clear to me he is decidedly better than Trump.

I believe environmental destruction is the single most important issue because it is an existential crisis. This includes not only warming temperatures and the coastal flooding associated with it, but dealing with the collapse of species, serious air and water pollution issues (being able to pressure major polluters like China and India), overpopulation, degradation of land through unsustainable agriculture and overfishing. This should be your primary concern as well.

Biden, to his credit does have a serious plan on his platform to address climate change. He appears to be serious about transforming our fossil fuel dependence into renewable energy. With the support of a Democratic Congress, they might be able to pass important environmental protection legislation and roll back on Trump's weakening of the EPA. I think sustainability concerns cannot be fully addressed without going full Green New Deal, but we cannot afford another 4 years of waiting and hoping next time we will get a Bernie. We are on a timer here.

I could vote for the Green Party out of principle, and I still might. If they get enough votes they might be able to pressure to adopt more environmental policies to their platform. But I don't really believe they will have any sway on Trump if he wins, and perhaps it would be more wise on voting Biden and then pressuring local Congress

So uh how is biden going to save the environment when the U.S military is the largest consumer of oil in the world and he has no demilitarizing foreign policy ideas, much like the rest of america, including most ppl posting in support of Biden itt. Since he also has no economic ideas, the US / its corporations will continue to finance chinese and indian pollution, wtf do you think pays for their factories. christ. There is a legitimate case to be made that Biden will do nothing for the environment but push rural americans to the right and lulling liberals to sleep for another 8 years as happened under obama, they'll get to think theyre doing their best while the world burns I suppose. Would it not be better to have 4 more years of trump so that libs can stay angry instead of openly wondering if drones will reduce the militaries dependance on oil or w.e mindnumbing shit Biden has in store for us?

The progressive movement will die back when biden becomes president just like it does every 4 years during the electoral cycle and ppl return to placing their hopes in institutional legislative agendas rather than acknowledging the possibility that theyre being misled by the people financed by the very corporations that profit from the polluting.

Alright, I suggest you actually look at Joe Biden’s platform because he is running on a platform that includes a $15 minimum wage, 2 years free college, and increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy. He also has policy plans to increase healthcare coverage and address climate change. I don’t think the environmental, healthcare, or tax plans go far enough, but all are to the left of 2016. I’m not convinced Joe Biden is going to be the most effective at getting these passed, but if even 1 does, I don’t see how we aren’t way better off with that 1 thing + Supreme Court justices and other judges that aren’t part of the federalist society cult. Very few people on this forum are going to argue Joe Biden was the best choice given the demographics of this forum vs the average Joe voter. But repeating an out of context quote that doesn’t actually mean what you’re saying isn’t valid criticism (neither is arguing he doesn’t think raising the minimum wage is a good thing when a $15 minimum wage is literally in his platform btw). That’s why I responded to the post, there are plenty of valid criticisms of Biden’s policies, but some of the posters in this thread need to get a fucking grip, if you think Biden and Trump are running on the same platform (or even similar platforms) you are uninformed.

It's easy to make big election promises, but 4-8 years down the road if you get Bush Jr 2.0 because nothing has changed for poor ppl then the climate will be that much more perilous and we'll all have lost that much time. Partisanship ensures that ppl will sanctify their leaders, or at least see them optimistically rather than as the doomed neoliberal mirror images they are. It is possibly better to avoid having moderate leftwing ppl deactivate by keeping them in crisis w trump. I have now read the full biden climate policy platform, it is incredibly vague and will directly precipitate a moment in which the seemingly lofty ideas of it will be translated into w.e implementation american corporations prefer with more regard paid to the 'economics' of climate change policy than any substance, and we will all be condemned to die from starvation as life on earth collapses starting with the ocean and immediately subsequently our food system will collapse. Talking about achieving goals by 2050 is deeply unscientific, we might as well just admit we've given up or started drinking the koolaid because by 2050 the oceans pH will have sunk by another ~.16 down to 7.9 and ecosystems will be spending ~1/2 of the year in death spirals The biden platform does not even mention ocean acidification because to do so would be to give a lie to all the projections he promises. Whether he knows it or not, his plan is to let the common folk burn, he is clearly aware that political instability caused by climate change will usher in a new wave of corporate rule and that he doesn't need to worry about any consequences of this because he will not be alive to live through them.

https://academic.oup.com/icesjms/article/68/6/1019/713847

Look I get the impetus to place hope in electoral politics, but it just isn't there this time, the optimism is completely misguided. Biden is deeply untrustworthy and unreliable, call me a closet republican if you want, but lets be real, it's Biden that is looking more and more like a republican each passing moment. We will, apparently, fully realize the extent of this only after 4 years when the republicans adopt his real platform (i.e the one he reveals after elected and it turns out he was just lying to win an election) as theirs. It's the same trick the two party system has been doing for the last 20 years to hoodwink the masses. Fact is leftists and probably a pile of women aren't going to support Biden and you'll call them trumpists instead of addressing their concerns. After Biden loses you'll wonder why the left and women didn't support him.

 

[MikeDawg]

After Biden loses you'll wonder why the left and women didn't support him.

That would be strange, considering Biden handily won female voters in the primary, as he did with nearly every demographic over the age of 29.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/03/17/biden-has-women-to-thank-for-his-primary-victories/

As for "the left", the vast majority will vote Biden. The ones who won't generally aren't reliable voters in the first place, so they're voluntarily expendable. Trying to court their votes would lose him many others. (see: Bernie's failure to expand his base or generate turnout in the primary)