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Other 1v1 Tournament Policy Discussion Thread
- Thread starter DEG
- Start date
Drop DPP, keep SM2 for WC.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...discussion-thread.3672609/page-5#post-9072313
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...discussion-thread.3672609/page-5#post-9072313
I am totally in favor of switching 1v1 World Cup and 1v1 Masters around. World Cup signups starting in almost 2 weeks feels WAY too soon given PL just ended 2 weeks ago and then the long absence of team tours until the next Premier League.
I think World Cup signups starting on July 4th would be a much appreciated decision!
I think World Cup signups starting on July 4th would be a much appreciated decision!
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keep same as pl
dpp is bad + it's gonna be completely obsolete when gen9 rolls around + mg was proven to be infinitely better than dpp in pl, i literally see no reason to try to put it back in
dpp is bad + it's gonna be completely obsolete when gen9 rolls around + mg was proven to be infinitely better than dpp in pl, i literally see no reason to try to put it back in
half the playerbase is on vacation mid july + it's like 3 weeks away changing i dont like the idea of changing the date out of the blue like this
How does this change from the last 2 years? I am fairly certain World Cup started in June and July the past 2 years. Surely this "out of the blue" change would not dramatically impact the amount or quality of players that signup.
SiceXV
Banned deucer.
the fact that SM2 in wcup is still an idea is comical when the playoff players in that tier were Xander, tol, NAR, and LBDC. SM2 literally only benefits Frita and West, but people don’t like dpp so I say just make it 2 MGs
I also don’t mind the change of pushing WCUP back a month as I don’t think people plan their lives around 1v1 wcup and wouldn’t even effect signups
I also don’t mind the change of pushing WCUP back a month as I don’t think people plan their lives around 1v1 wcup and wouldn’t even effect signups
Keep wc signups starting may 23rd, pushing it back is lame. As for slotting, looking at teams, dpp and sm2 slotting are horrendous for many teams ngl. I like sices idea of 2 mg tbf, it actually looks better than 2 sm or a dpp. Tho if we can’t do 2 mg, then I’d like to see dpp given one last shot, but people seem to already hate dpp still when I think it’s fine rn. So just do 2 mg fr
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I am also not convinced SM2 is the best slot to include for WC. In strong regions, such as Southern Europe, US West, or US South, sure, people can slot 2 people who are familiar with the tier. However, in many other regions, such as US Central, NEU, and Asia, finding a second player with knowledge of the tier is either difficult or impossible.
Team Pacific and India separated, Canada and Oceania separated, we don't know how they will be divided
If I forgot someone please call me silly and I will change it.
By contrast, I don't believe DPP has the same issues. It only requires having one player in the region, which most regions can deal with fine. India, US West, and to some extent Central, are the only teams that seem to struggle to find DPP players.
tldr: Powerful regions can fill SM2 well, but less powerful regions struggle. DPP does not have the same issue for most teams.
| Asia | Kentari (may not play, didn't for PL) |
| India | ToastedBunzzz frostyicelad (probably benched) Raj.Shoot |
| NEU | TSC (may not play) Melo (probably busy) Inkreativ (possibly busy) Arai |
| SEU | Lancer LBDC XSC STABLE Close gorilaa |
| USW | Boat Bandit |
| c?o | Landon (potentially) LRXC (busy) |
| USS | Edgar Squirtell (not sure) torterraxx pqs Tol |
| USE | Jamez Rumia |
| Canada | Potatochan (plays every tier) Freddy Kyogre (retired) |
| Oceania | Jabiru Bopher Chickenpie2 (unlikely) |
If I forgot someone please call me silly and I will change it.
By contrast, I don't believe DPP has the same issues. It only requires having one player in the region, which most regions can deal with fine. India, US West, and to some extent Central, are the only teams that seem to struggle to find DPP players.
| Asia | Euphonos (necromancy required) |
| India | Yash (rip) |
| NEU | Inkreativ / 187 Fan (both busy) neomon |
| SEU | PA ACII Close |
| USW | Gym socks! (hates the tier) Trashuny (hates the tier) |
| c?o | Urfgurgle Sanshokuinsumireko crucify / zio / LRXC (busy) |
| USS | Scholar |
| USE | Jamez |
| Canada | probably not alone, w/e |
| Oceania | Jabiru |
tldr: Powerful regions can fill SM2 well, but less powerful regions struggle. DPP does not have the same issue for most teams.
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mg over dpp, sm2 -> wildcard slot where a random tier is picked for each finals week/match in pools but is only known when round 1 is up. Some things it could be are: sm, ss, adv, real 1v1, 2v2 singles. This tour is for fun after all and every team has a player they can afford to put over here, even if they are one of the team's better players.
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Alright, I think its time to put this in the realm of discussion finally, because it seems we are all jumping and avoiding the obvious elephant in the room, which is the potential of ADV 1v1 being in this years edition of World Cup. On a real note, I get this is coming from me, LRXC, and its funny to dog on ADV because of the users its associated with, but please read on without cursorily jumping on the ADV hate train. When multiple users are suggesting 2 Multigen slots, out of a dislike for other options, or most of the options in general, I think its time to bring up the potential of ADV 1v1 taking over one of those slots, and take it seriously. I truly don't think DPP has a discussion here given last PL, and that its a choice between SM2, Multigen, and ADV
I understand that a lot of peoples perception of ADV is negative because of my obnoxiousness regarding the tier, and the fanbase for the tier that has mostly generated because of me. I understand the negative perception as well because of its absence from any team tours, and the fact that the tier is drastically different from the other 1v1 gens, with the pre physical special split, no access to resist berries, choice scarf, choice specs, and the smaller pool of Pokemon.
It strikes me as odd that we are dodging the fact that ADV 1v1 is a competitive tier now, has a player base now, and has quality resources now; I wouldn't have been able to say the same a year ago
I really think ADV 1v1 deserves a slot in World Cup, it deserves a chance. While we can argue about ideas like "unga bunga zapdos is broken, sceptile is too much" I feel like these ideas can't be fully fleshed out and tested out without the environment of a team tournament, because I don't neccesarily fully disagree with these claims. Every metagame had to start somewhere. And most often the people that spout these ideas are the ones who haven't played much ADV 1v1, yet continue to thrash it from the sidelines. And this isn't just for the quality of ADV 1v1, its also and 100% more importantly for the quality of 1v1 Tournaments. I believe Multigen being placed over DPP was a sign that we are moving towards what is the most enjoyable for the widest amount of people in the community, as opposed to following a perceived obligatory tradition, and I believe ADV 1v1 being in WC, for just this year, would also be a step in that direction.
On the note of "who the fuck plays ADV" or "who even plays ADV" here's a list I've compiled with regions. Let me emphasize I'm not claiming everyone on this list would be WOOOOOOO ADV, but still people capable of playing, and I truly think only 2 or so regions would suffer, which is a reality of slots like BW and SS3 anyway(as well as SM2 and DPP if they were chosen). And AGAIN, surely with some excitement if ADV gets into PL, with the incentive to win because its a team tournament, new faces will be up for the challenge in an arguably wide open tier, the addition of ADV in WC would directly increase the interest in the tier and the playerbase, I am confident in that.
Give ADV a chance
I understand that a lot of peoples perception of ADV is negative because of my obnoxiousness regarding the tier, and the fanbase for the tier that has mostly generated because of me. I understand the negative perception as well because of its absence from any team tours, and the fact that the tier is drastically different from the other 1v1 gens, with the pre physical special split, no access to resist berries, choice scarf, choice specs, and the smaller pool of Pokemon.
It strikes me as odd that we are dodging the fact that ADV 1v1 is a competitive tier now, has a player base now, and has quality resources now; I wouldn't have been able to say the same a year ago
I really think ADV 1v1 deserves a slot in World Cup, it deserves a chance. While we can argue about ideas like "unga bunga zapdos is broken, sceptile is too much" I feel like these ideas can't be fully fleshed out and tested out without the environment of a team tournament, because I don't neccesarily fully disagree with these claims. Every metagame had to start somewhere. And most often the people that spout these ideas are the ones who haven't played much ADV 1v1, yet continue to thrash it from the sidelines. And this isn't just for the quality of ADV 1v1, its also and 100% more importantly for the quality of 1v1 Tournaments. I believe Multigen being placed over DPP was a sign that we are moving towards what is the most enjoyable for the widest amount of people in the community, as opposed to following a perceived obligatory tradition, and I believe ADV 1v1 being in WC, for just this year, would also be a step in that direction.
On the note of "who the fuck plays ADV" or "who even plays ADV" here's a list I've compiled with regions. Let me emphasize I'm not claiming everyone on this list would be WOOOOOOO ADV, but still people capable of playing, and I truly think only 2 or so regions would suffer, which is a reality of slots like BW and SS3 anyway(as well as SM2 and DPP if they were chosen). And AGAIN, surely with some excitement if ADV gets into PL, with the incentive to win because its a team tournament, new faces will be up for the challenge in an arguably wide open tier, the addition of ADV in WC would directly increase the interest in the tier and the playerbase, I am confident in that.
- US South: pqs, crow crumbs, QT, OMNIWEEB, TDK,
- US Northeast: , murmdog, deddd, Fraun, Rojo
- South Europe: XSC, neomon, eu, SOULWIND,
- North Europe: D2W, Sificon, Holly, ALlCE,
- US Central: LRXC, urfgurgle, crucify, Hungryfoodies
- US West: Elo Bandit, Blanched, SMB, TJ, Boat, Gym Socks, bo_bobson27, Trashunny,
- Pacific: omi, doc, Euphonos, call me pk, adam,
Give ADV a chance
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Taking a fat shit on adv aside, do you see the mg playerbase advocate for their gen this hard? While I would never suggest this for PL, ADV hasnt had real team tour representation yet and I think now would be the best possible time in a not-so-serious tour like world cup to show off the work ppl have put into the tier.
Yeah its possibly going to be horrible but it will also let some newer players shine in a tier they know and I think it could surprise a lot of you. And my proposal for slotting is dropping SM2 and multigen for DPP/ADV. With gen 9 coming out soon theres realistically 0 chance we ever see these gens in a semi serious team tour again so why not free them for the last time?
Yeah its possibly going to be horrible but it will also let some newer players shine in a tier they know and I think it could surprise a lot of you. And my proposal for slotting is dropping SM2 and multigen for DPP/ADV. With gen 9 coming out soon theres realistically 0 chance we ever see these gens in a semi serious team tour again so why not free them for the last time?
i'm proposing this
ss1
ss2
ss3/multigen
sm
oras
bw
dpp
adv
This lu is the best alternative imo, gonna try and keep it kinda short so people actually read this.
we should have a poll on this but from the discussion i had in the 1v1 cord, everyone agrees that this would be good. As Bopher said, adv has a dedicated playerbase who genuinely enjoy the tier. Dpp is the same, even though it has a bit less of a playerbase, there are people who will play it/can be fed teams from every region. For sm2, the quality of games is weird when an actual sm2 level player is slotted there and slotting between sm1 vs sm2 has way more impact on how the tour goes than if it were just 1 slot. A lot of the sm pool is also unsure if they are going to sign up or not, or can play another tier I listed to a high level. Losing multigen, while a bit annoying for some people, will be beneficial overall, as due to the 'coinflip' nature of the tier, the good multigen players should enjoy playing a tier where they can get wins more consistently. Overall, I think this lineup is the best since it doesn't exclude any groups of players from having a fair go this wc.
ss1
ss2
ss3/multigen
sm
oras
bw
dpp
adv
This lu is the best alternative imo, gonna try and keep it kinda short so people actually read this.
we should have a poll on this but from the discussion i had in the 1v1 cord, everyone agrees that this would be good. As Bopher said, adv has a dedicated playerbase who genuinely enjoy the tier. Dpp is the same, even though it has a bit less of a playerbase, there are people who will play it/can be fed teams from every region. For sm2, the quality of games is weird when an actual sm2 level player is slotted there and slotting between sm1 vs sm2 has way more impact on how the tour goes than if it were just 1 slot. A lot of the sm pool is also unsure if they are going to sign up or not, or can play another tier I listed to a high level. Losing multigen, while a bit annoying for some people, will be beneficial overall, as due to the 'coinflip' nature of the tier, the good multigen players should enjoy playing a tier where they can get wins more consistently. Overall, I think this lineup is the best since it doesn't exclude any groups of players from having a fair go this wc.
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My own opinion and not 1v1TDs.
While I do not necessarily like or support the inclusion of ADV in team tournaments, I cannot gatekeep it so if it gets enough support I do not see a reason why it shouldn't be included in the conversation. Though, the only way I see myself agreeing on adding ADV is if DPP is also included so that would require the removal of SM2 and Multigen.
I see no reason to allow ADV in a tournament but gatekeep DPP as the playerbase is comparable, and the mechanics are technically the same (hax mechanics!! ik about the special/atk split thing). People that do not play ADV hate the tier, just like how people that don't play DPP hate the tier but their respective playerbase enjoy them. You also cannot gatekeep DPP cause the mechanics are bad but then allow ADV to be playable in WC.
I would also like to mention that we're discussing slots for this World Cup and we do not care about what happens in the future. Talks about DPP/ADV being obsolete come generation 9 is practically false as the expansion to 10 slots should never be ruled out, nor the discussion about the removal of MG/2 Slots for an old gen so it is technically feasible to still have DPP during gen 9 even if slots remain 8.
If you want my opinion, I believe MG/DPP or ADV/DPP should make the cut. I truly believe SM2 in World Cup is practically a farce after last World Cup. We had (no offense) Nar, Arai, Xander fill the that slot, and this WC seems more dire as previous faces such as Kentari, Landon, and even TSC might not play, first two didn't signup for PL, the latter said he doesn't know. One SM is easily fillable and should produce great battle and we avoid some joke matchups cause some teams really cannot fill 2 SMs.
Anyway, I'm also not sure about the ADV playerbase, most people that LRXC mentioned are either tour players that might/will not signup or people that would definitely rather play something else other than ADV specially if DPP is also in the pool. DPP and ADV have an overlapping playerbase to an extent which might be problematic. In many cases, LRXC is just overestimating the ADV pool. I would like an hypothetical pool IF both ADV and DPP make it in without counting players that will be surely put in other slots.
Realistically, we can also have SS4/MG and forget about SM2/DPP/ADV if people care.
Since there's a lot of different opinions, I think doing a vote similar to this should ensure that everyone gets a proper say.
Regarding timing, nothing has been said, so can I also please have a word on this. If there's no talks about it I'll consider that people are neutral / don't care and give us a green light to change it or keep it.
While I do not necessarily like or support the inclusion of ADV in team tournaments, I cannot gatekeep it so if it gets enough support I do not see a reason why it shouldn't be included in the conversation. Though, the only way I see myself agreeing on adding ADV is if DPP is also included so that would require the removal of SM2 and Multigen.
I see no reason to allow ADV in a tournament but gatekeep DPP as the playerbase is comparable, and the mechanics are technically the same (hax mechanics!! ik about the special/atk split thing). People that do not play ADV hate the tier, just like how people that don't play DPP hate the tier but their respective playerbase enjoy them. You also cannot gatekeep DPP cause the mechanics are bad but then allow ADV to be playable in WC.
I would also like to mention that we're discussing slots for this World Cup and we do not care about what happens in the future. Talks about DPP/ADV being obsolete come generation 9 is practically false as the expansion to 10 slots should never be ruled out, nor the discussion about the removal of MG/2 Slots for an old gen so it is technically feasible to still have DPP during gen 9 even if slots remain 8.
If you want my opinion, I believe MG/DPP or ADV/DPP should make the cut. I truly believe SM2 in World Cup is practically a farce after last World Cup. We had (no offense) Nar, Arai, Xander fill the that slot, and this WC seems more dire as previous faces such as Kentari, Landon, and even TSC might not play, first two didn't signup for PL, the latter said he doesn't know. One SM is easily fillable and should produce great battle and we avoid some joke matchups cause some teams really cannot fill 2 SMs.
Anyway, I'm also not sure about the ADV playerbase, most people that LRXC mentioned are either tour players that might/will not signup or people that would definitely rather play something else other than ADV specially if DPP is also in the pool. DPP and ADV have an overlapping playerbase to an extent which might be problematic. In many cases, LRXC is just overestimating the ADV pool. I would like an hypothetical pool IF both ADV and DPP make it in without counting players that will be surely put in other slots.
Realistically, we can also have SS4/MG and forget about SM2/DPP/ADV if people care.
Since there's a lot of different opinions, I think doing a vote similar to this should ensure that everyone gets a proper say.
Regarding timing, nothing has been said, so can I also please have a word on this. If there's no talks about it I'll consider that people are neutral / don't care and give us a green light to change it or keep it.
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XSTATIC COLD
Banned deucer.
3 words : dpp is useless.
dppenis
D2TheW
Amadán
guys guys guys, the adv playerbase (actual builders) is an endangered species which is about 2% of the 1v1 playerbase, we are at the brink of extinction. We don’t need poachers with their sniper rifles sniping us in the gut. We are indeed a rare breed of players.
my stance on adv is that adding it to wc is ruining a tour to also ruin a metagame just for the sake of experimenting. The one instance where a good builder touched that metagame he got a mon from UR to banned in the span of days. The only reason the tier hasn't turned to dogshit is because LRXC pushes people to run quirky/dogshit>brokens so people dont abuse the good mons and in turn they dont get banned. The inclusion of ADV in an official teamtour could only damage the tier as it would instantly turn to shit. Please stop bringing this option up as a viable consideration.
DPP and SM2 suffer from similar playerbase problems but the difference is that while one actively makes me want to fucking rope the other one is just a bit more difficult to find a good player for. SM2 players also are advantaged by the fact that SM1 pool is very competitive so they can rely on the help of a great player for teams etc. DPP is the opposite since all the players w/o a good dpp have to teach the tier to someone new while also relying on some of the worst resources for an old gen oat (even gsc/adv resources are more active).
MG is good. People say it's boring, I say that's subjective, I had a lot of fun watching and playing MG throughout PL. Other people say it's coinflip, I say we literally play 1v1 what the fuck do you expect.
realistically this isnt even that bad. You're acting like we slotted chickenpoggers sh1tttalker69 or tox1c1v1. dpp had yash and morgan, bw had doc1203, ss bo7 had mk007 and smb, ss5 had choccymilk tenzhii and deg, should we remove every slot then? you also ignore the fact that we had newblood like gorilaa and toasted stand out thanks to the sm2 slot, which is really good.
realistically the inclusion of dpp/adv and the removal of mg/sm2 and viceversa are both advocated for by people with extreme bias towards either their preferred tier or their own team, but objectively speaking dpp has waaayyyyyy more disadvantages than sm2, with no real added benefit.
3SS 2SM 1ORAS 1BW 1MG
salut les mecs
from the discussions in the tournament discord and other chats, many people have expressed their displeasure with the WCoP format when it comes to the second SM slot. i strongly believe that we should consider doing WCoP: 1 SS Bo7 with 2 SS Bo5 + 2 SM Bo5 + 2/1 ORAS Bo5 and 1 MG Bo5, yes these are the formats that have been accepted and played during PL.
many ideas are realistic and can have a big impact on this year's circuit and the balancing of the tournament circuit, with the creation of the new MG slot which is a very good idea initiated 2 years ago and only played this year...
removing the SM 2 would be like removing the SS Bo7 with the greatest of inconsistencies with the ninth generation coming at the end of the year. why should we keep this slot?
that's the problem, i don't mind admitting that formats evolve every year but there is no point in removing a slot from an older generation to replace it with a more suitable one? i don't think so. if you remove it, there would be no more versatility, yes, for 1 slot. so 1 SM slot is far from being the solution.
a lot of people thought that removing the SM 2 was the best solution to get the teams together and move the metagame forward with what? add another SS slot or add DPP or ADV? it would be too hard to fill a team. i also see that some people support the idea of bringing back DPP and ADV, to me they are old and hard to master and only require successful players like 187 Fan, LRXC, Euphonos, Inkreativ who are no longer active and would be doomed to failure for new players, especially against the aforementioned top competitors of those generations.
although not directly related to the tournament, the SM council conducted a vote on sleep and Dragonite (which is not finished) with all concerned. over 20 people responded and many said that several Pokemon should be banned like Mew (with Bopher's recent post very interesting), so we're still going to go after Mew while the one on sleep and dragonite isn't finished yet, i think 90% of the votes will be in favor of the bans and announcing the results in the middle of the tournament, which will still change the meta and change the strategies of SM era players.
TL;DR: keep the old format, if a change is decided, consider 3 Bo5 SS + 2 Bo5 SM + 2 Bo5 ORAS + 1 Bo5 MG.
from the discussions in the tournament discord and other chats, many people have expressed their displeasure with the WCoP format when it comes to the second SM slot. i strongly believe that we should consider doing WCoP: 1 SS Bo7 with 2 SS Bo5 + 2 SM Bo5 + 2/1 ORAS Bo5 and 1 MG Bo5, yes these are the formats that have been accepted and played during PL.
many ideas are realistic and can have a big impact on this year's circuit and the balancing of the tournament circuit, with the creation of the new MG slot which is a very good idea initiated 2 years ago and only played this year...
removing the SM 2 would be like removing the SS Bo7 with the greatest of inconsistencies with the ninth generation coming at the end of the year. why should we keep this slot?
that's the problem, i don't mind admitting that formats evolve every year but there is no point in removing a slot from an older generation to replace it with a more suitable one? i don't think so. if you remove it, there would be no more versatility, yes, for 1 slot. so 1 SM slot is far from being the solution.
a lot of people thought that removing the SM 2 was the best solution to get the teams together and move the metagame forward with what? add another SS slot or add DPP or ADV? it would be too hard to fill a team. i also see that some people support the idea of bringing back DPP and ADV, to me they are old and hard to master and only require successful players like 187 Fan, LRXC, Euphonos, Inkreativ who are no longer active and would be doomed to failure for new players, especially against the aforementioned top competitors of those generations.
although not directly related to the tournament, the SM council conducted a vote on sleep and Dragonite (which is not finished) with all concerned. over 20 people responded and many said that several Pokemon should be banned like Mew (with Bopher's recent post very interesting), so we're still going to go after Mew while the one on sleep and dragonite isn't finished yet, i think 90% of the votes will be in favor of the bans and announcing the results in the middle of the tournament, which will still change the meta and change the strategies of SM era players.
TL;DR: keep the old format, if a change is decided, consider 3 Bo5 SS + 2 Bo5 SM + 2 Bo5 ORAS + 1 Bo5 MG.
I have never played in a 1v1 team tournament, but I just want to say that I think adding ADV as a slot would be a good idea. I really enjoyed playing ADV 1v1 in Classic a while back and thought it was pretty balanced so I don't really understand where all the complaints about Zapdos and Sceptile being broken come from, but if that's the case, wouldn't a stage such as World Cup be a solid place to see this? Individual tours only go so far in metagame development, and having multiple people on a team to bounce ideas off of can be great.
I think Stable brings up a decent concern about ADV, in that the tier might turn to shit if it gets high-quality builders for it, especially considering the whole Clefable debacle. Personally though, I think something like this was a one-time thing that probably won't happen again. What I'm more concerned about is a lack of players. IMO the tier's easy to learn, but there isn't really a dedicated ADV player base from what I know, so you'd have to learn the tier on the fly if you wanted to play, or get an all-around great player and make them play ADV (which causes a separate problem in needing building support most of the time), which is not an option all regions have. I think if 1v1 TLs are genuinely concerned with getting a solid number of players, then that's valid grounds for denying a slot to ADV. Regardless, I think ADV deserves a chance in order to help meta development.
Btw if it's not ADV then I don't care what is it, it can be NatDex Monopoke if the player base wants it.
I think Stable brings up a decent concern about ADV, in that the tier might turn to shit if it gets high-quality builders for it, especially considering the whole Clefable debacle. Personally though, I think something like this was a one-time thing that probably won't happen again. What I'm more concerned about is a lack of players. IMO the tier's easy to learn, but there isn't really a dedicated ADV player base from what I know, so you'd have to learn the tier on the fly if you wanted to play, or get an all-around great player and make them play ADV (which causes a separate problem in needing building support most of the time), which is not an option all regions have. I think if 1v1 TLs are genuinely concerned with getting a solid number of players, then that's valid grounds for denying a slot to ADV. Regardless, I think ADV deserves a chance in order to help meta development.
Btw if it's not ADV then I don't care what is it, it can be NatDex Monopoke if the player base wants it.
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