Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[1LDK]

Bro i dont know anything of the 1v1 meta, never played, tried, anything, but i just looked at this thread and holy fuck this is sad, do you guys know how stupid "Lets have a 1v1, but i can change type to kill you faster, but then you change type to defend yourself against my type, but i just so happen to have neutral (not even effectuve) coverage and oh wait im dead becuase look at all that damage" sounds? did you all banned dinamax gen before? because this is it but different format, no, its not gonna be okay, its like an old saying in where i live "a monkey that puts on a dress is still a monkey"

 

[Sanshokuinsumireko]

Yo the wtf happening

 

[ciarion]

Hello, I'd like to just drop a lukewarm defense of Terastal. Before that I have to clarify my position- on the first few days of the metagame being out, everything felt extremely ridiculous. People would run tera types seemingly at random, on top of the presence of completely broken mons that made it so that any attempt at teambuilding or laddering felt draining. However, I think the meta has already improved somewhat after 3 days and gives me hope for the future of a Terastal 1v1 metagame.

The main question I've been mulling over is whether Terastal could actually raise the skill ceiling rather than lower it. It should be clear that Terastal adds more decision making to the game- which type to pick and when to Terastallize. Instead of framing these decisions as random 50/50 coinflips, they could be thought through with intention and give an advantage to the "more skilled player". Yes, there is a chance that the "less skilled player" can accidentally fumble their way to a victory using a random Tera type despite you picking your best options, but the advantage does seem to go to the players who actually pick good Tera types that synergize well with their Pokemon as well as creative players who can successfully divert the expectations the opponent has. Cteaming on ladder aside, of course- and cteaming has always been highly prevalent on the 1v1 ladder so I don't see the big issue with that.

Now let me address some of the major points made for banning Terastal:

1. "Zero opportunity cost" is thrown around a lot, but there is an opportunity cost no matter which Tera type you pick. You will certainly start to drop certain matchups if you choose your Tera type to counter something too specific. For example, looking at the Flutter Mane vs Haxorus scenario in D2TheW's post, dropping the Fairy resist as Haxorus would mean that you simply die to Moonblast, regardless of Flutter Mane's Tera type. There are more intricacies, of course, with Hax potentially running AV/Spdef, or Dragon Dance predicting a Protect scout from Flutter Mane, but there it is: the actual cost of running random Tera types. If you do not have any way to resist the opposing pokemon's base STABs you straight up lose most of the time OR have to change your EVs, Item, Moves, etc. I think theoretically this could lead to "optimized" sets or types.

2. "There will be infinite cycles of development of mons trying to beat each other". I honestly can't tell why this is a bad thing, as figuring out ways to beat new developments is one of the most interesting aspects of 1v1 to me. When there is nothing left to optimize, people get bored, so why is that the end goal? At that point it literally becomes a Rock Paper Scissors clicking battle because there will be nothing new left to discover or create.

3. "Tera Blast ban won't help the situation when it comes to unpredictability". This just seems wrong to me, as mons don't get infinite coverage. Mons will inherently be offensively limited when they can't take advantage of the STAB bonus provided by certain types, ultimately meaning that there will be matchups that are simply impossible for some mons to overcome. A lot of the MU scenarios provided as examples of unhealthiness seem to assume that the mons can run Tera Blast, to not only resist the opponent's Tera but also hit them for Super Effective damage.

4. "There will be reduction of diversity of good mons, as the best mons of the tier can always be infinitely teched to beat anything". While the Tera Blast ban would certainly help with this, I think fundamentally there could be merit to running many different mons. Natural typing is surprisingly important when you only get to pick 1 Tera Type. If your original typing is weak to a lot of things, then you will often find yourself forced to use your Terastallize even when the matchup is not that good. On top of that, mons still have their unique stats, ability, and/or moves to help them gain viability.

5. "It's not fun nor interesting to watch". This is subjective, and I enjoy watching Terastal 1v1 games way more than non Terastal so far. It's not really interesting to watch a game where the only decision made was to pick Specs Magnezone into Tapu Fini and click Thunderbolt, is it?

Ultimately, I can understand why people would want to ban Terastal- it felt horrible to me on day 1 too. But after playing a bit more and seeing how things have been evolving, I can't help but feel a bit intrigued and hopeful for it. I would appreciate it if nobody insulted me for this post & if you do, please be gentle. Thanks for reading my post : )

 

[fake tom numbers]

a

Zero opportunity cost

many people are referring to mega/zmoves where you have to run an item slot unlike this where you click a button. even if this wasn't the case, it's not really the main reason people want it banned

There will be infinite cycles of development of mons trying to beat each other

no one is going to develop tera meta lol. jokes aside, being infinite has no meaning to the tier, plus this is really bad in a tournament setting where now there is no skill gap between good and bad players and now relies on which person has the better tera type

Tera Blast ban won't help the situation when it comes to unpredictability

if you played ladder once pure offensive mons like ice regieleki are bad. defensive mons are the best (mentioned below) and the only "defensive" mon that uses tera blast is brute bonnet for water coverage. please mention 1 viable thing that uses tera blast because the defensive typing is so much better than the offensive coverage

There will be reduction of diversity of good mons, as the best mons of the tier can always be infinitely teched to beat anything

so the best mons rn are iron valiant, sab (encore disable mons) mimikyu and brute bonnet. why? because everything else is inconsistent vs anything. defensive mons are the best since you consistently win mus (this applies to every gen, not only sv). I reached #1 on ladder with 2 defensive mons since they're consistent. offensive mons are bad because you have to rely on tera types in every single matchup. have you played this meta?

It's not fun nor interesting to watch

??? who mentioned this. it doesn't matter if it's fun to watch or not, the people actually playing are in a setguessing hell of which tera type the opponent is

tera aside, lots of hate against anti ban people fsr which is p cringe and should stop. (but can you guys ban tera thanks)

 

[zioziotrip]

The main question I've been mulling over is whether Terastal could actually raise the skill ceiling rather than lower it. It should be clear that Terastal adds more decision making to the game- which type to pick and when to Terastallize. Instead of framing these decisions as random 50/50 coinflips, they could be thought through with intention and give an advantage to the "more skilled player". Yes, there is a chance that the "less skilled player" can accidentally fumble their way to a victory using a random Tera type despite you picking your best options, but the advantage does seem to go to the players who actually pick good Tera types that synergize well with their Pokemon as well as creative players who can successfully divert the expectations the opponent has. Cteaming on ladder aside, of course- and cteaming has always been highly prevalent on the 1v1 ladder so I don't see the big issue with that.

I think this proposition that tera makes the tier more skill-based is simply wrong. A lot of the other points that come after are also wrong but seeing as if u take the bottom row from a house of cards the entire thing falls, I won't waste everyone's time.

Picture this: You are facing Dragapult Sylveon Magnezone, a relatively standard DFS structure. When you are playing prior gens each mon has a couple sets, but nothing that will completely flip things on its head. Sure, Pult can be CB and turn the tables on AV Arc which fairs well into most other Pult sets but it's never beating any fairies or darks. Now, enter tera. Let's look at what Pult can do. It reasonably be either of its prior STABs to drop weaknesses and gain Adapt for its offensive sets. It can be Steel to gain a much greater Fairy MU, this complements both SubHex and offensive sets w/o needing terablast. It can become Water to have a well-rounded defensive typing for SubHex or compliment Surf/Hydro on Specs while retaining a generally good typing that shreds Pult's previous weaknesses. It can become Ground to give itself an edge in the opposing Steel or Fire MUs. It can become Electric to gain generally favorable Water+Steel MUs while boosting TBolt for Specs. It can become Fire for Steel teras and a generally good offensive typing for Specs as you retain your previous STAB.

To put it into numbers, Pult can viably be 7 different types. Each of these separate types have completely different counterplay and I don't even want to think about how many potential sets. How can anyone possibly be expected to gauge what that Pult is? This is not even talking about the nightmare that in-game clicking is because you have to take a shot in the dark at what typing you think it is. Now take that guessing nightmare and have it for three separate mons with dozens of potential variants. Tera makes skillful play futile. There is no reason you would not load 3 BST behemoths and just pray your tera typing matches up favorably. There's no way to deduce anything on preview when anything can realistically beat anything. Tera removes clicking skill. It removes in-game nuance. It removes building skill. There is absolutely nothing about this mechanic that is worth preserving. Development will only worsen the unpredictability as more mons are optimized for Tera. Strike one mon or mechanic down of Tera and 20 new issues will rise in its place. Tera is fundamentally ill-fit for 1v1.

 

[RTM]

Shut the fuck up this thread has just become an echo chamber. I'm neutral on tera but i would happily support a ban if it means you guys would shutup because no one cares. I get wanting a free 12 likes or whatever that u get from copy pasting someone elses post into quillbot but it needs to stop. Ironic U want meta development but are meanwhile going to get the thread locked. No one is stopping you from playing eachother with tera clause and posting about that meta here while you wait for the ban instead of just whining and achieving nothing.

Might just be me who thinks this tho :)

 

[DEG]

Honestly, my problem about this matter goes deeper than the fact that tera should be banned or not; the root of the problem comes from the lack of transparency that happened which really isn't something strange when it comes to smogon.com. The fact that the community was promised a vote on Sunday for it to be canceled last minute sets a dangerous precedent and actually worsens the relation, see trust, between community, council and leadership. As an insider, part of council, what is scary isn't that we got overturned as a community, but that everything was done in the shadows. For reference, the council chat is home to Council+SS+the Tiering admin but there was zero discussion about the matter in said chat, the whole conversation between the TLs and Tiering Admin was done either in DMs or in another channel which really is a kick to the guts to the whole council process, if the conversation happened inside said chat, it would be easier to swallow such pill or even understand/discuss the matter more. It's comical, that the TLs kept promising the voting to be up soon, even an hour before this farcical decision, which really made me lose my trust on the whole process; we got a two-week deadline then what - there's no roadmap, there's no confirmation that anything will be done, what if the TL lies again and say "Give it more time" and we were pushed another two weeks, I have zero trust about leadership currently. What's even scarier is that the only reason the tiering admin was contacted is because both TLs are in favor of tera and were looking for "advice" to keep tera in the metagame, so if the TLs were pro tera ban we wouldn't be having this conversation now, this is really damaging and dangerous for the future. This really isn't about me - cause what worst case scenario is I skip SV, nobody's forcing me to play SV but its about the betrayal and how our voice as council, or even the voice of the majority that was dismissed as "the voice of 5 loud people" was ignored and belittled.

I could go on a monologue and reply to the pro-tera people but everything was already said and I don't want to copy paste the same things over and over again. Anyway not like my post or any other post matters, we've seen the results already. I'm honestly disappointed.

 

[Lumii]

apart from one somewhat notable instance of a post involving the viability of Porygon-Z and BW Council's inability to make a correct alphabetical list, I do not make long posts. verbosity is just something that does not appeal to me. however, I do think this situation might be forcing me to make a longer than usual post...

as a note, this comes from me as a player, not as a tournament host or anything of the sort. basically, think of this as coming from Lumii and not the host of kickoff or whatever else could be brought into question.

I would firstly like to say that while I stand on some sort of neutral ground on whether or not to ban tera, the lack of kindness shown by some members of the community towards the tier leaders and tiering admins should not be acceptable. These people, firstly, are volunteers who do not get paid. They have a lot more to deal with than your average player. Trying to yell at them until you get your way is somewhere between uncivilized and malicious. Please be kind to people, as you likely don't know the situations that they are dealing with. People oftentimes are trying their best, and sometimes, some decisions that some members of the community do not agree with get made. However, no matter how badly you may see a decision, it is never grounds to basically harass someone until they change their mind. This part is probably the most important part of this post, as it affects a lot more than just "are we going to have tera or not," which in my eyes, is, at least relatively, a pretty minute thing to care about.

Coming to the elephant in the room, Tera is likely not a healthy mechanic in the long term. However, the SV metagame will be here for three years, during which we will see quite a few teamtours, many officials, and many unofficials give it representation. Realistically, waiting two weeks will not kill anyone. I think that many of the things people are doing in regards to this are overblown. I've seen a lot of players refuse to play kickoff, to which, honestly, I'm pretty sure that a good 90-95% of people in kickoff would quite readily accept the offer to gentleman to a no tera match. As much as I think that this is circumventing the decision to keep tera in for now and all, as a tournament host, I would not be able to do anything about people who want to do this. Surely, this would cause the Tera SV 1v1 metagame to get less development, but if this is what you wanna do, just go for it.

Finally, I do not think that the TLs should not be getting as much hate as they are. They basically just went along and implemented a suggestion from a tiering admin. Please just wait a couple weeks, and most likely tera will end up getting banned. I can see the justification for anger, but it is never a justification to take your anger out on someone else.

That's pretty much all I have to say.

 

[lavarina]

so apparently shed tail is substitute but doesn't cut off your HP
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1717103203-6h2mhmyiwrn2eo5quea8o4amzuztmjkpw

this is a long replay but just looking at the first attempt is enough. i don't know if this is bad or not but i have to say its pretty annoying

 

[Lumii]

so apparently shed tail is substitute but doesn't cut off your HP
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1717103203-6h2mhmyiwrn2eo5quea8o4amzuztmjkpw

this is a long replay but just looking at the first attempt is enough. i don't know if this is bad or not but i have to say its pretty annoying

I just tested this on console, this is not how this is supposed to work. I'll check if the necessary people know this already.

Edit: bug report given, at link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...inal-post-before-posting.3663703/post-9406332

 

[Potatochan]

Shut the fuck up this thread has just become an echo chamber. I'm neutral on tera but i would happily support a ban if it means you guys would shutup because no one cares. I get wanting a free 12 likes or whatever that u get from copy pasting someone elses post into quillbot but it needs to stop. Ironic U want meta development but are meanwhile going to get the thread locked. No one is stopping you from playing eachother with tera clause and posting about that meta here while you wait for the ban instead of just whining and achieving nothing.

Might just be me who thinks this tho :)

yes, it is just you :)

 

[lavarina]

back again with another discovery though this one isn't too prominent? not sure if it's a bug so i didn't want to post it in bug reports first.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1717905718-upkypvymq2blh3f4i7t5np42vqcfdrtpw

it's arboliva against sableye stall as usual (which btw if sableye and mimikyu gets banned i'd be so damn happy), and sableye swapped my grassy seed with choice scarf. because thats what sableye does.

long story short, it used fling which activated my seed sower, but the seed still activated for sableye. not that it changed much but i thought i'd share it anyway

i'm gonna stop playing for a bit until tera's gone, because holy shit i went from 1400 to 1100 (its more of a skill issue on my side but aha.)

 

[RTM]

back again with another discovery though this one isn't too prominent? not sure if it's a bug so i didn't want to post it in bug reports first.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1717905718-upkypvymq2blh3f4i7t5np42vqcfdrtpw

it's arboliva against sableye stall as usual (which btw if sableye and mimikyu gets banned i'd be so damn happy), and sableye swapped my grassy seed with choice scarf. because thats what sableye does.

long story short, it used fling which activated my seed sower, but the seed still activated for sableye. not that it changed much but i thought i'd share it anyway

i'm gonna stop playing for a bit until tera's gone, because holy shit i went from 1400 to 1100 (its more of a skill issue on my side but aha.)

i'm pretty sure that this is as intended even tho it seems weird

breakdown

Sableye used Fling!
(The opposing Arboliva lost 3% of its health!) Damage dealt for grassy seed
[The opposing Arboliva's Seed Sower]
[The opposing Arboliva's Seed Sower] Ability activates causing terrain to go up, item is not yet lost
Grass grew to cover the battlefield!
(Sableye used its Grassy Seed!) Grassy seed is used by sableye raising defense
The Grassy Seed raised Sableye's Defense!
Sableye flung its ! Item is lost during this step, so left the space blank as it lost its item

could be wrong, I would test in game except this is very very very situational

 

[lavarina]

could be wrong, I would test in game except this is very very very situational

the breakdown is already appreciated! thanks!

 

[Lumii]

i'm pretty sure that this is as intended even tho it seems weird

breakdown

Sableye used Fling!
(The opposing Arboliva lost 3% of its health!) Damage dealt for grassy seed
[The opposing Arboliva's Seed Sower]
[The opposing Arboliva's Seed Sower] Ability activates causing terrain to go up, item is not yet lost
Grass grew to cover the battlefield!
(Sableye used its Grassy Seed!) Grassy seed is used by sableye raising defense
The Grassy Seed raised Sableye's Defense!
Sableye flung its ! Item is lost during this step, so left the space blank as it lost its item

could be wrong, I would test in game except this is very very very situational

At the very least, Fling should not be giving that message if there is no item, so this likely could go into bug reports as a text error.

 

[*Swords Of Death*]

This opinion may be unpopular but I don't think mimikyu should be banned.

Reasons

1. A ton of new pokemon learn both Taunt and Encore beating mimikyu's main set (Curse, Endure, Phantom Force, Substitute, with Custap Berry or the slightly less optimal sets with Sitrus/Salac. You may disagree with the best sets, I'm just biased because I made the Custap set).

2. Many pokemon beat Mimikyu's Curse set if they have Yawn, Trick, Recovery moves, Leech Seed, Salt Cure, Multi-hit moves, Mold Breaker, Priority Moves, Faster Normal types with a non attacking move (50/50 with predict), Gholdengo, Burn, Poison, chances with Para/Sleep, Some Berries, etc. These are some more obscure move choices, but with such a wide variety of move choices it is likely you can fit it on your team.
For example, a Weakness Policy Chi-Yu with Will-O-Wisp. (This set could be bad, it's just an example)

-----

Problems

1. You still don't know if it's an offensive mimikyu or Curse. This causes problems because pokemon like Iron Bundle who beat Curse lose to the offensive set. But isn't that just normal 1v1? Many pokemon have several different sets beating specific mons.

2. The Custap set on mimikyu is problematic because it was never used in older generations. Normally fast mons would always beat mimikyu (if they are faster than +1 from salac, which many are in this gen), but with mimikyu you are guaranteed the win against any pokemon without encore/taunt/the moves listed above.

-----

Examples of how to play mimikyu (many would lose the mu shown below even though it is winning)

Flutter Mane vs Mimikyu (Ignore that phantom force would probably just ohko)

example: [t1 Moon Blast, Curse] [t2 Calm Mind, Endure] [t3 Moon Blast, Endure] Mimikyu has a 50/50 chance of surviving here if they get to Endure or if you predict the Calm Mind.

example 2: [t1 Moon Blast, Substitute] [t2 Moon Blast, Curse] [t3 (Custap) Phantom Force, Moon Blast (miss)] [t4 Moon Blast (miss), Phantom Force] [t5, Moon blast, Endure] In this example the faster mon just loses with no chance to win unless they are a normal type or if they heal more than the damage dealt by Phantom Force via berry/leftovers.

But this sounds similar to what other pokemon can do. Dig Riolu loses to EQ (if they are banded he learns magnet rise), and Whimsicott loses if you can 1 shot it/have a multi-hit move, etc. (and there are berries halving damage). There are plenty of cases where only specific moves or types of moves can defeat pokemon.

-----

Conclusion

While mimikyu is a serious threat, this generation has been given many more options to beat it than any other generation. I tried to address the problem and weaknesses of mimikyu equally and gave out information that many probably don't know on how mimikyu can beat even more mons. I could have left this out to show only the weaknesses, but I tried my best to instead share everything I had.

As the meta develops we will see what has to come, but I do not think mimikyu should be banned any time soon. A very similar example to this is Zygarde Complete in generation 8. It took a very very long time to ban his ability even though a team was considered bad if it did not have a counter to him. It probably had 4 different sets and each one was viable and could beat different things.

If you do decide to ban mimikyu I would like you to consider instead banning move combinations or specific items with it (like how Magnet Rise and the Electric Z move are banned because it raises evasion or Leppa berry with Recycle and Heal Pulse. These are banned because they break the endless battle clause and evasion clause, but still relevant I think).

 

[fake tom numbers]

1. A ton of new pokemon learn both Taunt and Encore beating mimikyu's main set (Curse, Endure, Phantom Force, Substitute, with Custap Berry or the slightly less optimal sets with Sitrus/Salac. You may disagree with the best sets, I'm just biased because I made the Custap set).

news flash: lo/band exists (and lum but that was when brute wasn't nerfed)

Yawn, Trick, Recovery moves, Leech Seed, Salt Cure, Multi-hit moves, Mold Breaker, Priority Moves, Faster Normal types with a non attacking move (50/50 with predict), Gholdengo, Burn, Poison, chances with Para/Sleep, Some Berries

this is just saying moves which doesn't mean anything lol. anyways garg can lose to taunt/sd mimi with wood hammer, gholdengo loses to claw -> sneak

For example, a Weakness Policy Chi-Yu with Will-O-Wisp.

there is a move called curse (what???)

But isn't that just normal 1v1? Many pokemon have several different sets beating specific mons.

it beats the whole meta. the only consistent mon beating it is tinkaton (lol), and technically it can live with a resist berry (hax can lose to bulky variants) tell me what it doesn't beat please

example: [t1 Moon Blast, Curse] [t2 Calm Mind, Endure] [t3 Moon Blast, Endure] Mimikyu has a 50/50 chance of surviving here if they get to Endure or if you predict the Calm Mind.

??? it's sub -> curse for custap mimi smh (guaranteed mu)

But this sounds similar to what other pokemon can do. Dig Riolu loses to EQ (if they are banded he learns magnet rise), and Whimsicott loses if you can 1 shot it/have a multi-hit move, etc. (and there are berries halving damage). There are plenty of cases where only specific moves or types of moves can defeat pokemon.

riolu and whims have counters but mimi doesn't wow shocker

While mimikyu is a serious threat, this generation has been given many more options to beat it than any other generation.

anyways, if you're going to make an argument to not ban mimi then you should probably say what it contributes to the tier (also ban mimi thanks)

 

[Potatochan]

This opinion may be unpopular but I don't think mimikyu should be banned.

Reasons

1. A ton of new pokemon learn both Taunt and Encore beating mimikyu's main set (Curse, Endure, Phantom Force, Substitute, with Custap Berry or the slightly less optimal sets with Sitrus/Salac. You may disagree with the best sets, I'm just biased because I made the Custap set).

2. Many pokemon beat Mimikyu's Curse set if they have Yawn, Trick, Recovery moves, Leech Seed, Salt Cure, Multi-hit moves, Mold Breaker, Priority Moves, Faster Normal types with a non attacking move (50/50 with predict), Gholdengo, Burn, Poison, chances with Para/Sleep, Some Berries, etc. These are some more obscure move choices, but with such a wide variety of move choices it is likely you can fit it on your team.
For example, a Weakness Policy Chi-Yu with Will-O-Wisp. (This set could be bad, it's just an example)

-----

Problems

1. You still don't know if it's an offensive mimikyu or Curse. This causes problems because pokemon like Iron Bundle who beat Curse lose to the offensive set. But isn't that just normal 1v1? Many pokemon have several different sets beating specific mons.

2. The Custap set on mimikyu is problematic because it was never used in older generations. Normally fast mons would always beat mimikyu (if they are faster than +1 from salac, which many are in this gen), but with mimikyu you are guaranteed the win against any pokemon without encore/taunt/the moves listed above.

-----

Examples of how to play mimikyu (many would lose the mu shown below even though it is winning)

Flutter Mane vs Mimikyu (Ignore that phantom force would probably just ohko)

example: [t1 Moon Blast, Curse] [t2 Calm Mind, Endure] [t3 Moon Blast, Endure] Mimikyu has a 50/50 chance of surviving here if they get to Endure or if you predict the Calm Mind.

example 2: [t1 Moon Blast, Substitute] [t2 Moon Blast, Curse] [t3 (Custap) Phantom Force, Moon Blast (miss)] [t4 Moon Blast (miss), Phantom Force] [t5, Moon blast, Endure] In this example the faster mon just loses with no chance to win unless they are a normal type or if they heal more than the damage dealt by Phantom Force via berry/leftovers.

But this sounds similar to what other pokemon can do. Dig Riolu loses to EQ (if they are banded he learns magnet rise), and Whimsicott loses if you can 1 shot it/have a multi-hit move, etc. (and there are berries halving damage). There are plenty of cases where only specific moves or types of moves can defeat pokemon.

-----

Conclusion

While mimikyu is a serious threat, this generation has been given many more options to beat it than any other generation. I tried to address the problem and weaknesses of mimikyu equally and gave out information that many probably don't know on how mimikyu can beat even more mons. I could have left this out to show only the weaknesses, but I tried my best to instead share everything I had.

As the meta develops we will see what has to come, but I do not think mimikyu should be banned any time soon. A very similar example to this is Zygarde Complete in generation 8. It took a very very long time to ban his ability even though a team was considered bad if it did not have a counter to him. It probably had 4 different sets and each one was viable and could beat different things.

If you do decide to ban mimikyu I would like you to consider instead banning move combinations or specific items with it (like how Magnet Rise and the Electric Z move are banned because it raises evasion or Leppa berry with Recycle and Heal Pulse. These are banned because they break the endless battle clause and evasion clause, but still relevant I think).

The truly terrifying thing about Custap Mimikyu is that you HAVE to taunt it turn 1. Wisp Chi-Yu is not a reliable answer to Mimikyu, as Wisp t1 on Curse is a losing sequence to Phantom Force. However, you can’t simply Taunt t1 as you’ll lose to every single offensive set.

These 50/50s plagued SS Mimikyu meta and required either very difficult set reading between Curse or offensive, or required hyper specific counters such as faster knock off (which we have even less of this gen).

All in all, I agree that Curse Mimikyu is easily cheesed and doesn’t seem close to broken on its own, but its the fact that Mimikyu can basically bluff being 2 completely different Pokemon on preview that makes the mon broken. If you would like to argue that Mimi should be kept, you should probably argue to this aspect instead. You addressed this point briefly, but you stated that Mimi is comparable to other mons in this aspect when it really isnt.

 

[zioziotrip]

mimi is an unhealthy mon for the tier. a ton of mons have to bend over backwards just to setguess it. disguise is too much between its decent offensive options and curse w both being fairly customizable. I would ban it asap it can adapt to basically every form of trying to cheese it be it fast taunt/encore, speed control, prio, or niche mons.

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

mimi is an unhealthy mon for the tier. a ton of mons have to bend over backwards just to setguess it. disguise is too much between its decent offensive options and curse w both being fairly customizable. I would ban it asap it can adapt to basically every form of trying to cheese it be it fast taunt/encore, speed control, prio, or niche mons.

Honestly with the way 1v1 is structured, as long as the power level stays relatively low for 1v1, I feel like we just have to ban some Pokémon immediately cause we know how meta defining it’ll be. An ability like disguise isn’t suitable for a format like this. (I still don’t understand why 1v1 doesn’t allow complex bans to an extent. Only one Pokémon in sv gets multiscale and without it that poking isn’t that so threatening. I’m still so confused on how you guys handle this considering power construct, an ability, was banned and it was only available to one Pokémon and it’s kinda the same case here.)

 

[*Swords Of Death*]

(First part is to Tom)

So a lot of what you said seems like you didn't read the post, I'm sure your pretty decent at the game but please get rid of that ego. I really don't care if you were the #1 1v1 player, be respectful in your response.

1. I showed the winning version in the flutter mane mu, I was simply showing how many people would normally think of the mu and it is incorrect. Similar to how you were incorrect about the Chi-Yu mu

example 2: [t1 Moon Blast, Substitute] [t2 Moon Blast, Curse] [t3 (Custap) Phantom Force, Moon Blast (miss)] [t4 Moon Blast (miss), Phantom Force] [t5, Moon blast, Endure] In this example the faster mon just loses with no chance to win

2. Don't assume mu. While I don't expect people to play the mu themselves, don't just outright assume it's losing, keep an open mind. While I did not mention Snarl, it is a perfectly reasonable move to have on a WP Chi-Yu (Which is probably a decent set all joking aside)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1720723811

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1720726141


----

now to everyone else that responded nicely, I completely agree I just feel mimi should have the option to stay in the meta with a complex ban similar to how zygarde ability was banned, I think it is a very cool mon that is getting wasted. Besides that, the meta is actually not even a meta yet, it's still forming and I feel getting rid of pokemon so early isn't good. While I do not believe mimi is completely healthy in the state it is currently in, I feel it can be. As potatochan has said the main problem is the versatility of sets, not the set itself.

I think making the Meme Compendium was a mistake because people like Tom1535 (probably his peak rate is 1535. I'm joking btw) take me as a joke and they forget that I'm not some random 1300. I may not be the best in the game and I do joke around a lot with random sets, but I do know how to play the game. People seem to forget that the game is meant to be fun, and me messing around with things I know are bad is fun. It's not the Meme Compendium itself that did this (many probably don't even know what I'm talking about) but just my general carefreeness leads people to think that of course what I say must be wrong. Anyways, 1v1 is generally a very chill place and most of you are very kind, but my god some of you need to just lose the ego.

Now, feel free to respond to this however you wish. (Unless it's random, this thread is meant to discuss the metagame)

 

[nolenot]

Some mistakes in sword of death post

2. Many pokemon beat Mimikyu's Curse set if they have Yawn, Trick, Recovery moves, Leech Seed, Salt Cure, Multi-hit moves, Mold Breaker, Priority Moves, Faster Normal types with a non attacking move (50/50 with predict), Gholdengo, Burn, Poison, chances with Para/Sleep, Some Berries, etc. These are some more obscure move choices, but with such a wide variety of move choices it is likely you can fit it on your team.
For example, a Weakness Policy Chi-Yu with Will-O-Wisp. (This set could be bad, it's just an example)

you can sub on yawn (not a sound move)
same with trick and leech seed if your faster
faster normal types ALWAYS win actually, as long as they have odd hp to live 4 turns of curse at 1 hp and have literally any damaging move that does like 40%
encore and taunt as also the biggest counters idk why you didnt mention that here
what berries bro.

2. The Custap set on mimikyu is problematic because it was never used in older generations. Normally fast mons would always beat mimikyu (if they are faster than +1 from salac, which many are in this gen), but with mimikyu you are guaranteed the win against any pokemon without encore/taunt/the moves listed above.

with custap against faster mons you need to do 50% with phantom force, which isnt that crazy but not a "guaranteed win"


mimikyu is broken yeah and it should be banned butr its also kinda ass especially with power creep and no power whip so i would resuspect it after home and dlcs or whatever because it could easily not be broken afterwards curse is just so easily cheesed and it has 91 base attack

 

[Potatochan]

Some mistakes in sword of penis post

with custap against faster mons you need to do 50% with phantom force, which isnt that crazy but not a "guaranteed win"

Actually nolenot this would appear to be your mistake, as with Custap you can simply Curse -> Endure -> Custap Pforce -> Slower Pforce next turn and they are now dead

EDIT: This would actually force an unnecessary Custap 50/50 on turn 2, the better play would be to Sub -> Curse -> Custap Pforce -> slower Pforce

 

[fake tom numbers]

b

So a lot of what you said seems like you didn't read the post, I'm sure your pretty decent at the game but please get rid of that ego. I really don't care if you were the #1 1v1 player, be respectful in your response.

the reason I was 'harsh' was because you had a huge ego to say outrageous things without proving them. like "this generation has been given many more options to beat it than any other generation" but there's zero proof of that. if a random can debunk a bad post then there's a problem. it's not just me as well, not sure why you're targeting me when 4 ppl hahad your post

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1720723811

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1720726141

i think it's kinda obvious that sitrus wins in replay 1, idk about wisp snarl and would just run taunt for checking mimi instead (personally myself i run np because that mu is jank) in replay 2 ada lo can win and custap, but I wouldn't be clicking chi yu against mimi because that mu is weird

people like Tom1535 (probably his peak rate is 1535. I'm joking btw) take me as a joke and they forget that I'm not some random 1300.

dude no one gives a shit about ladder, only tournaments really matter. apparently I have this huge ego debunking a post by a random. can you show me where I was saying that I'm the best player? because it seems to me that you have a larger ego than me for acting like you're someone important when you're not. I've made that mistake before, others have as well, but I'm not interested in having beef with a random, I'm more interested in having fun. if you want to be taken seriously then prove yourself

 

[LRXC]

Just posing this as a general question, it is under my impression that Sableye is still pretty damn broken and restrictive in the teambuilder, as we found out at the genesis of SWSH, do a lot of people have differing opinions on this? What do we think of Sableye and its effect on the metagame? And what sets are we specifically using?