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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter clerica
- Start date
Weirdhamster
Banned deucer.
my bad
iron bundle is faster base 136>base 116
flutter manebase 135 asw
bird poop
Banned deucer.
Tera has been in the subject of many debates recently, with both sides bringing up valid points, and to keep this post relatively short I won't waste time repeating them. However, I believe I have come to a few compromises which I came up 100% by myself. These compromises would allow both pro tera advocates to not ban a whole mechanic and anti tera advocates to maintain the competitive integrity of the metagame. I will list them from the most sensible solution to alternative solutions.
The first and one I resonate with the most is limiting tera to mons below a certain threshold on the VR. If this is determined to be C-rank, D-rank, or unranked, is of no consequence to me. However, by implementing this solution, this would guarantee that the mechanic would not be 100% axed and there would still be viable pokemons able to use it, while maintaining a competitive SV metagame where tera is not overcentralizing and allows for creative building with and without the use of tera. The basis for such a compromise can be seen in early ss ubers where a similar decision was made where non-uber pokemons were allowed to dynamax and uber mons were not allowed to dynamax. While I will admit this decision was eventually overturned, the fact remains that such a compromise was a viable solution for a period of time and it is worth testing a solution for a fletching new metagame such as SV.
The second compromise is quite similar and instead limits tera to a pokemon under a certain base stat total (BST). Once again this would allow for the use of tera on pokemon that are not exceptionally powerful and would therefor boost these pokemon to viability but not as a centralizing force. The reason I am slightly less inclined for this compromise is that selecting a BST threshold is much more arbitrary than a VR threshold. Additionally I want to mention if a certain pokemon exists which would be broken in either of these compromises, that individual pokemon could be banned allow us to maintain a healthy balance.
The third compromise would be limiting tera to one mon per team.
The fourth compromise would be the same as the third compromise but the tera mon has to be in the first slot. So bam, we don't gotta worry bout no unpredictability no more.
The last compromise would be deciding on a pokemon by pokemon basis, which would be arbitrary as hell and require unrealistic time and effort in a manner that would not be feasible. The only way this would work would be in tandem with other compromises listed above in which underpowered pokemon in either of the two scenarios are rewarded with the ability to tera.
#TeamTera #TeamNoTera
I just want what's best for the metagame and I think two generations without the main mechanic in the 1v1 tier in some capacity would be a depressing outcome of this ordeal.
Thank you ladies and gents of the jury, I hereby rest my case.
bird poop out and about
The first and one I resonate with the most is limiting tera to mons below a certain threshold on the VR. If this is determined to be C-rank, D-rank, or unranked, is of no consequence to me. However, by implementing this solution, this would guarantee that the mechanic would not be 100% axed and there would still be viable pokemons able to use it, while maintaining a competitive SV metagame where tera is not overcentralizing and allows for creative building with and without the use of tera. The basis for such a compromise can be seen in early ss ubers where a similar decision was made where non-uber pokemons were allowed to dynamax and uber mons were not allowed to dynamax. While I will admit this decision was eventually overturned, the fact remains that such a compromise was a viable solution for a period of time and it is worth testing a solution for a fletching new metagame such as SV.
The second compromise is quite similar and instead limits tera to a pokemon under a certain base stat total (BST). Once again this would allow for the use of tera on pokemon that are not exceptionally powerful and would therefor boost these pokemon to viability but not as a centralizing force. The reason I am slightly less inclined for this compromise is that selecting a BST threshold is much more arbitrary than a VR threshold. Additionally I want to mention if a certain pokemon exists which would be broken in either of these compromises, that individual pokemon could be banned allow us to maintain a healthy balance.
The third compromise would be limiting tera to one mon per team.
The fourth compromise would be the same as the third compromise but the tera mon has to be in the first slot. So bam, we don't gotta worry bout no unpredictability no more.
The last compromise would be deciding on a pokemon by pokemon basis, which would be arbitrary as hell and require unrealistic time and effort in a manner that would not be feasible. The only way this would work would be in tandem with other compromises listed above in which underpowered pokemon in either of the two scenarios are rewarded with the ability to tera.
#TeamTera #TeamNoTera
I just want what's best for the metagame and I think two generations without the main mechanic in the 1v1 tier in some capacity would be a depressing outcome of this ordeal.
Thank you ladies and gents of the jury, I hereby rest my case.
bird poop out and about
any restriction on tera that isn’t a flat out ban misses the mark on doing anything about it. a change about how you can use it just shifts which abusers are broken, it does not make the mechanic more balanced. to give an actual example, some draft leagues last gen tried giving 1 pointers (mons generally considered not competetively notable in any fashion) access to dynamax. all that ended up happening is mons like chatot becoming unstoppable because other mons were stripped of the ability to retaliate with their own dyanmax. a similar case I can imagine w tera is if we ban terablast you just have mons that aren’t reliant on terablast to bolster their coverage blow everything else out of the park.
I would’ve loved for tera to be an acceptable and interesting mechanic but that’s just not how it panned out. With the ton of new mons, items, moves, abilities, etc. we have plenty of things to mess around with this gen I can’t see it having an identity remotely close to any gen prior even in the absence of tera.
I would’ve loved for tera to be an acceptable and interesting mechanic but that’s just not how it panned out. With the ton of new mons, items, moves, abilities, etc. we have plenty of things to mess around with this gen I can’t see it having an identity remotely close to any gen prior even in the absence of tera.
Blazekyu (Mimikyu) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endure
- Curse
- Phantom Force
- Substitute
self explanatory set, from the little playtime i've had most of my elo has been using this demon to get so many easy wins against most things, only losing to things like taunt mega-misdreavus , mega amoongus, and gholdengo- I'm not even considering offensive lo and terra forms that could potentially be in play here i only used the set without abusing terrastrialisation. This also noting demonkyu was missing the 252 attack in many of my earlier victories too. Feeling this has got to follow in dnite's footsteps at this point right?
( I know things like the salt cure mon and gholdengo ruin its day, but it has supreme mu against most other things imo)
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endure
- Curse
- Phantom Force
- Substitute
self explanatory set, from the little playtime i've had most of my elo has been using this demon to get so many easy wins against most things, only losing to things like taunt mega-misdreavus , mega amoongus, and gholdengo- I'm not even considering offensive lo and terra forms that could potentially be in play here i only used the set without abusing terrastrialisation. This also noting demonkyu was missing the 252 attack in many of my earlier victories too. Feeling this has got to follow in dnite's footsteps at this point right?
( I know things like the salt cure mon and gholdengo ruin its day, but it has supreme mu against most other things imo)
Clodsire @ Rocky Helmet/Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Counter
I've been having an excellent time using a defensive Clodsire. I'm currently running Rocky Helmet (Mostly for the Mousehold matchup) but leftovers might be a better option.
Currently the meta seems very ATK heavy and an unaware mon that can't be toxic seems pretty decent.
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Counter
I've been having an excellent time using a defensive Clodsire. I'm currently running Rocky Helmet (Mostly for the Mousehold matchup) but leftovers might be a better option.
Currently the meta seems very ATK heavy and an unaware mon that can't be toxic seems pretty decent.
I would like to let the record show that the tier is currently being stripped of weeks of growth because quote “no one is an expert.” The response to community outcry on a mechanic that is comically ill-suited for 1v1 is “develop around it” or other empty arguments. There is a laundry list of reasons to remove tera but instead we are letting it roam rampant at the most active time for the tier in a very long time. It’s comparable to having a broken leg, consulting your friends and family that the leg indeed is broken, then deciding “Hey! Who knows! It may get better!” instead of visiting a hospital. It is sad to see a time for potential revitalization in a suffering tier snuffed out by two people.
#Save1v1
#Save1v1
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shoutouts tier leaders Rosa smely socks for going to senior staff to give permission for them to cancel a council vote on tera that they would have lost 4-2.
yup im so glad that our tier leaders will do everything in their power to keep a mechanic that 90% of the playerbase wants gone
yup im so glad that our tier leaders will do everything in their power to keep a mechanic that 90% of the playerbase wants gone
These post about “ban Tera” are kinda pointless. We know how broken it is. It’ll get banned EVENTUALLY. This thread is kinda Mickey rn ngl
The metagame will not “shape out and establish itself” until this mechanic is banned btw
ban tera
zio dedd and Xander are absolutely right btw, as a person who has actually laddered a lot and seen this fucking terrible mechanic I can say it’s terrible for 1v1 and I am not sure why anyone would think it’s healthy. It’s pure chaos having to know that the opponents pokemon could willingly become any type it wants and realistically beat most things it wants. Tera won’t develop into anything remotely healthy which takes 2 brain cells to know, I am not sure how our tier leaders of all people somehow do not know this. It actually makes me question if our tier leaders are more capable of leading this tier than other people. All that is happening is 2 more weeks of unhealthy gameplay that could have been healthy development with this shit mechanic gone. Rant done thanks for reading
D2TheW
Amadán
Can't believe I'm posting in this fucking thread but apparently certain individuals need the blatantly obvious explained to them so I'm gonna do that as quickly and as patiently as I can.
The given reason for not immediately nuking terastalising is that they want to see how the meta establishes itself first. While this is bullshit, I'm gonna take it at face value. Fortunately for everyone, I have a crystal ball in which I can see the future and hence I can already tell you exactly how the meta will develop.
We're gonna take the simplest possible mu to use as an example: flutter-mane vs haxorus (the intricacies of this mu don't really matter btw it's just an easily understood example). Mane runs tera fire and hax runs tera steel, so this mu is just a plain 50/50 based on who does/doesn't tera which sucks but what can you do. Well what you can do is run fire hax and take either Moonblast or tera fire so you win that mu. Mane users adapt and start running tera ground which beats steel and fire hax so hax starts running tera ground. Mane starts using tera water, hax starts running elec and so on and so on.
This process is not unusual in 1v1 mus but the difference here is that it is never ending. You can come up with a cool way for toge to beat gross, but then gross can adapt and then you can have an adaptation war, but eventually one of these mons is just gonna run out of tools and the other retains it's favourable mu. Tera is an essentially infinite tool that makes any mu between mons with a decent/good toolkit a shitshow with 0 way to guarantee a mu.
And the worst part of this mechanic is that anything can use but also, not everything will even get to. Mons with superior tools are just gonna colonise the meta with infinite variations of the same shit. Take something like Valiant, which seems nearly tailor made to abuse this. This cunt can tera off either stat and has encore disable shenanigans to boot. It's literally impossible to have a true counter to something like this because it can always always spec into some stupid tera type to beat whatever the fuck you thought you were gonna beat it with. Why would you use anything other than the upper echelon of the tier when they are infinitely customisable and impossible to truly counter. If I can beat valiant with roaring moon on one team and beat moon with valiant on another, why would I use fucking Orthworm or whatever. Nobody would and then we end up with a tier with the diversity of the average West Virginia citizens genepool. "So we just ban the abusers" cool and then more take their place because that's just how this works, there will always be an upper echelon of mons with just plainly superior attributes no matter how many bans you have. Mons below the top/high tier get used because of their good mus against said top/high tiers and this mechanic makes that completely redundant.
Continuing to state the obvious, this is just gonna be unplayable in tours. To me, the most important part of 1v1 from a competitive perspective is information. What do you know, what does your oppo know and what can you manipulate to your advantage? Make them think you're 3-0d by something so they'll click it, make them think you're not 3-0d so they don't, bring something so insane that they can't possibly know what it's gonna do, or just load silvally and make em sweat. These are the parts of 1v1 that actually make the tier interesting to play and make it so that's it not actually just rock paper scissors and terastalising just props a squat and shits all over that. How are you supposed to get an advantage by knowing things or manipulating what they think when it's literally impossible to know anything for sure on preview? You just gotta pick and pray and then just for good measure get the 50/50 right too. How the fuck are tours gonna be at all interesting or remotely competitive?
We already know where this is gonna go, down an ever devolving optimisation rabbit hole with no end and about 5 active players involved. Save everyone the bother and get rid of it now, so we can actually start developing this tier while we're still interested. There's a bunch of other things I could have mentioned like how it's actually quite good to be able to say for definite that mon x beats mon y, but I'd presumably be better off spending my time playing charades with Hellen Keller.
TL:DR fuck you read the post.
The given reason for not immediately nuking terastalising is that they want to see how the meta establishes itself first. While this is bullshit, I'm gonna take it at face value. Fortunately for everyone, I have a crystal ball in which I can see the future and hence I can already tell you exactly how the meta will develop.
We're gonna take the simplest possible mu to use as an example: flutter-mane vs haxorus (the intricacies of this mu don't really matter btw it's just an easily understood example). Mane runs tera fire and hax runs tera steel, so this mu is just a plain 50/50 based on who does/doesn't tera which sucks but what can you do. Well what you can do is run fire hax and take either Moonblast or tera fire so you win that mu. Mane users adapt and start running tera ground which beats steel and fire hax so hax starts running tera ground. Mane starts using tera water, hax starts running elec and so on and so on.
This process is not unusual in 1v1 mus but the difference here is that it is never ending. You can come up with a cool way for toge to beat gross, but then gross can adapt and then you can have an adaptation war, but eventually one of these mons is just gonna run out of tools and the other retains it's favourable mu. Tera is an essentially infinite tool that makes any mu between mons with a decent/good toolkit a shitshow with 0 way to guarantee a mu.
And the worst part of this mechanic is that anything can use but also, not everything will even get to. Mons with superior tools are just gonna colonise the meta with infinite variations of the same shit. Take something like Valiant, which seems nearly tailor made to abuse this. This cunt can tera off either stat and has encore disable shenanigans to boot. It's literally impossible to have a true counter to something like this because it can always always spec into some stupid tera type to beat whatever the fuck you thought you were gonna beat it with. Why would you use anything other than the upper echelon of the tier when they are infinitely customisable and impossible to truly counter. If I can beat valiant with roaring moon on one team and beat moon with valiant on another, why would I use fucking Orthworm or whatever. Nobody would and then we end up with a tier with the diversity of the average West Virginia citizens genepool. "So we just ban the abusers" cool and then more take their place because that's just how this works, there will always be an upper echelon of mons with just plainly superior attributes no matter how many bans you have. Mons below the top/high tier get used because of their good mus against said top/high tiers and this mechanic makes that completely redundant.
Continuing to state the obvious, this is just gonna be unplayable in tours. To me, the most important part of 1v1 from a competitive perspective is information. What do you know, what does your oppo know and what can you manipulate to your advantage? Make them think you're 3-0d by something so they'll click it, make them think you're not 3-0d so they don't, bring something so insane that they can't possibly know what it's gonna do, or just load silvally and make em sweat. These are the parts of 1v1 that actually make the tier interesting to play and make it so that's it not actually just rock paper scissors and terastalising just props a squat and shits all over that. How are you supposed to get an advantage by knowing things or manipulating what they think when it's literally impossible to know anything for sure on preview? You just gotta pick and pray and then just for good measure get the 50/50 right too. How the fuck are tours gonna be at all interesting or remotely competitive?
We already know where this is gonna go, down an ever devolving optimisation rabbit hole with no end and about 5 active players involved. Save everyone the bother and get rid of it now, so we can actually start developing this tier while we're still interested. There's a bunch of other things I could have mentioned like how it's actually quite good to be able to say for definite that mon x beats mon y, but I'd presumably be better off spending my time playing charades with Hellen Keller.
TL:DR fuck you read the post.
bilb owo
Banned deucer.
was gonna make a post but d2 said what i was tryna say but better.
forced myself to play like 5 games today to get a couple example replays and here are 2 of them that were concurrent times i played the same person. (the other 3 games also were completely decided by what on the drop down tera thing was clicked but this is an example of both that and the degenerate c teaming aspect).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1716513122-ey16hfqmxdnsaz7rfzzpvk51kwursvlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1716517091-9w08ij7w6rjgvmk1tatlxf6m49i9otcpw
as d2 said i had a lost matchup because initially they had clicked the option on the drop down menu that beat my mon, so i changed what i had clicked on the drop down and used it to very skilfully beat the same person.
i played the recent no tera delim room tour and this meta honestly has the potential to be fun af but all the excitement i had to build around a new meta and try play a part in the early development of it is gone as i physically cannot enjoy this tier while tera isn't banned. to people who say stuff like 2 weeks isn't a big deal it really is for the literal beginning of the entire generation it is when the tier should be getting the most activity with both new and old players with the most innovation and exciting discoveries. however, due to corrupt TLs we now lose the vast majority of this with a drastically dwindling playerbase.
i know that it is very hard to admit that you're wrong and sometimes it can feel like you have dug yourself into a hole but i promise that if you actually listen to the community and get this shit banned people will think infinitely more of you Rosa smely socks . (or even just do the original vote that was planned which you went behind the council's backs to cancel.)
forced myself to play like 5 games today to get a couple example replays and here are 2 of them that were concurrent times i played the same person. (the other 3 games also were completely decided by what on the drop down tera thing was clicked but this is an example of both that and the degenerate c teaming aspect).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1716513122-ey16hfqmxdnsaz7rfzzpvk51kwursvlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1716517091-9w08ij7w6rjgvmk1tatlxf6m49i9otcpw
as d2 said i had a lost matchup because initially they had clicked the option on the drop down menu that beat my mon, so i changed what i had clicked on the drop down and used it to very skilfully beat the same person.
i played the recent no tera delim room tour and this meta honestly has the potential to be fun af but all the excitement i had to build around a new meta and try play a part in the early development of it is gone as i physically cannot enjoy this tier while tera isn't banned. to people who say stuff like 2 weeks isn't a big deal it really is for the literal beginning of the entire generation it is when the tier should be getting the most activity with both new and old players with the most innovation and exciting discoveries. however, due to corrupt TLs we now lose the vast majority of this with a drastically dwindling playerbase.
i know that it is very hard to admit that you're wrong and sometimes it can feel like you have dug yourself into a hole but i promise that if you actually listen to the community and get this shit banned people will think infinitely more of you Rosa smely socks . (or even just do the original vote that was planned which you went behind the council's backs to cancel.)
this post is a fucking banger from start to finish god Damn nice one D2TheW :comfyblob:
nolenot
Banned deucer.
Looking at than thread this ain’t even a debate it’s just TLs stalling for jackshit reasons despite zero people saying they currently enjoy the meta. Like the only reason people are saying to not ban Tera is because “the meta hasn’t developed” (combined IQ of a ketchup on pizza lover) . LIKE MY FUCKING BROTHER IN CHRIST YOU ARE PLAYING POKÉMON ONLINE SIMULATORS!!! JUST MAKE IT FUN IT DOESNT MATTER!! It’s a fucking mechanic designed for 6v6 doubles or whatever format vgc is, let alone one vs one (format where who wins is almost entirely decided by the matchups of 1 Pokémon, which is usually decided by type advantage which you can now change whenever you want with no indication so it is blind rock paper scissors). Might as well make it bring one pick one since picking and team preview pretty much affects nothing anyways in this meta. Rosa smely socks why you asking ppl who know nothing abt 1v1 what to do just to stall the Tera vote 2 weeks? Goofy as TLs bruh like wtf
I know it's gonna be beating a dead horse to post about why I think Tera should be banned, but I'm gonna do it anyway because I want to show there really is an endless amount of support for its removal.
So, back when I made my first post in this thread I seriously tried to take it in good faith that everything I asked to be banned could potentially be fine. Maybe Terastelization would develop in a way that wasn't coinflippy, maybe Dragonite would be ruined by the new Pokemon introduced, and maybe clearer and more widespread counterplay for Mimikyu would be discovered. Of the three things I asked for a ban of, I am most adamant about my stance on banning Tera. I'm gonna discuss why.
The biggest issue I have with Terastelization is that counterplay becomes far less clear with it in the tier. In every other generation, every Pokemon has its soft and hard counters, or checks if you don't want to say "soft counter". As a quick example, Naganadel checks Togekiss. It is a check and not a counter because Scarf can quite easily win off of a single flinch, but Naganadel generally defeats every other set as long as it's running a boosting item. Meanwhile, Regieleki is a counter, because Togekiss has no options to possibly defeat it. The best a Toge can do is run Wacan Berry and Sub to fish for a Thunder Cage miss, but that's an incredible stretch and Regieleki can never lose if it just uses Thunderbolt instead. With Terastelization, this dynamic can skew in either Pokemon's favor at the press of a button; suddenly, Togekiss is a Ground-type immune to Electric moves and can whittle Regieleki down (or OHKO with Tera Blast) while Eleki is locked into Thunderbolt. The Regieleki user, however, can wise up to this and instead run a non-Choiced set with Magnet Rise and Ice Tera. Counterplay at this point for either user is hoping they have the Tera Type for the situation and playing out the sequence accordingly. This is bad, because there's nothing from either player's end to suggest that the other player is going to Tera or not, or even has the type to win; you're playing blindly and hoping that whatever you click is correct.
Preview mindgames become far more brutal as your counterplay to the opponent's best and worst Pokemon is called into question; am I equipped to defeat Tera Ground Togekiss? Are they even running Tera Ground? Is my best pick something like Tera Steel Mimikyu? Eventually, you'll make a pick, and it may be good, or bad, but either way you've only fought half the battle. Now you need to decide what buttons you're clicking. Terastelize on the wrong turn, and you could lose the game due to something completely unprecedented, like an Ice-type Tera Blast or the opponent resisting your move instead of being weak to it. This isn't prediction in the traditional sense for the preview or actual gameplay, because there are no bases for prediction at either point; there is absolutely no indication your opponent will Terastelize on any turn or what type they will turn into, and thus your Tera will be for nothing. Sure, there are going to be "best types" for every Pokemon, but set diversity and malleability and cohesion will be sky-high while every game becomes coinflip upon coinflip upon coinflip.
I've seen the outcry against Terastelization be equated to the outcry against Z-Moves in Gen 7. However, I do not believe these cases to be comparable, for the reason I've been talking about throughout - counterplay! Z-Moves have two things Tera doesn't; opportunity cost and innate limits. For example, Gyarados may very well be Z-Fly or Mega, and that could drastically change what you choose into it - I've fallen victim to this exact guessing game - unless you have a Zeraora. There really isn't much regular Gyarados can do to beat Zera, despite its access to the hypothetical ability to beat huge amounts of Pokemon with Z-Moves. Magearna is a menace on preview, but Victini has you covered. Sure, Magearna could be ready to pounce with any Z-Move, but it is inherently too limited by its kit to do so, and Victini's basic Z-Celebrate into V-Create should always seal the deal. There's always some form of clear counterplay, and while SM's volatile nature means no team will be perfect, it still allows builders to effectively check off reasonable amounts of the VR with their Pokemon, leading to a very interesting and fairly diverse metagame.
In summary, Tera is unhealthy because it changes the fundamental counterplay between Pokemon. Imagine Terastelization in ORAS; Charizard X would probably be broken, with Y not far behind. Charizard X is allowed to be in the tier because its lure sets have high opportunity cost; wanna beat Heatran? Better have the EVs and moveslot. Diancie? Same deal. However, with Tera, why not do both? Just become a Ground-type whenever you want and claim your free win. It's ludicrous to imagine this mechanic being implemented in 1v1 at any other point in the history of Pokemon without being overwhelming, coinflippy, and broken, including now.
So, back when I made my first post in this thread I seriously tried to take it in good faith that everything I asked to be banned could potentially be fine. Maybe Terastelization would develop in a way that wasn't coinflippy, maybe Dragonite would be ruined by the new Pokemon introduced, and maybe clearer and more widespread counterplay for Mimikyu would be discovered. Of the three things I asked for a ban of, I am most adamant about my stance on banning Tera. I'm gonna discuss why.
The biggest issue I have with Terastelization is that counterplay becomes far less clear with it in the tier. In every other generation, every Pokemon has its soft and hard counters, or checks if you don't want to say "soft counter". As a quick example, Naganadel checks Togekiss. It is a check and not a counter because Scarf can quite easily win off of a single flinch, but Naganadel generally defeats every other set as long as it's running a boosting item. Meanwhile, Regieleki is a counter, because Togekiss has no options to possibly defeat it. The best a Toge can do is run Wacan Berry and Sub to fish for a Thunder Cage miss, but that's an incredible stretch and Regieleki can never lose if it just uses Thunderbolt instead. With Terastelization, this dynamic can skew in either Pokemon's favor at the press of a button; suddenly, Togekiss is a Ground-type immune to Electric moves and can whittle Regieleki down (or OHKO with Tera Blast) while Eleki is locked into Thunderbolt. The Regieleki user, however, can wise up to this and instead run a non-Choiced set with Magnet Rise and Ice Tera. Counterplay at this point for either user is hoping they have the Tera Type for the situation and playing out the sequence accordingly. This is bad, because there's nothing from either player's end to suggest that the other player is going to Tera or not, or even has the type to win; you're playing blindly and hoping that whatever you click is correct.
Preview mindgames become far more brutal as your counterplay to the opponent's best and worst Pokemon is called into question; am I equipped to defeat Tera Ground Togekiss? Are they even running Tera Ground? Is my best pick something like Tera Steel Mimikyu? Eventually, you'll make a pick, and it may be good, or bad, but either way you've only fought half the battle. Now you need to decide what buttons you're clicking. Terastelize on the wrong turn, and you could lose the game due to something completely unprecedented, like an Ice-type Tera Blast or the opponent resisting your move instead of being weak to it. This isn't prediction in the traditional sense for the preview or actual gameplay, because there are no bases for prediction at either point; there is absolutely no indication your opponent will Terastelize on any turn or what type they will turn into, and thus your Tera will be for nothing. Sure, there are going to be "best types" for every Pokemon, but set diversity and malleability and cohesion will be sky-high while every game becomes coinflip upon coinflip upon coinflip.
I've seen the outcry against Terastelization be equated to the outcry against Z-Moves in Gen 7. However, I do not believe these cases to be comparable, for the reason I've been talking about throughout - counterplay! Z-Moves have two things Tera doesn't; opportunity cost and innate limits. For example, Gyarados may very well be Z-Fly or Mega, and that could drastically change what you choose into it - I've fallen victim to this exact guessing game - unless you have a Zeraora. There really isn't much regular Gyarados can do to beat Zera, despite its access to the hypothetical ability to beat huge amounts of Pokemon with Z-Moves. Magearna is a menace on preview, but Victini has you covered. Sure, Magearna could be ready to pounce with any Z-Move, but it is inherently too limited by its kit to do so, and Victini's basic Z-Celebrate into V-Create should always seal the deal. There's always some form of clear counterplay, and while SM's volatile nature means no team will be perfect, it still allows builders to effectively check off reasonable amounts of the VR with their Pokemon, leading to a very interesting and fairly diverse metagame.
In summary, Tera is unhealthy because it changes the fundamental counterplay between Pokemon. Imagine Terastelization in ORAS; Charizard X would probably be broken, with Y not far behind. Charizard X is allowed to be in the tier because its lure sets have high opportunity cost; wanna beat Heatran? Better have the EVs and moveslot. Diancie? Same deal. However, with Tera, why not do both? Just become a Ground-type whenever you want and claim your free win. It's ludicrous to imagine this mechanic being implemented in 1v1 at any other point in the history of Pokemon without being overwhelming, coinflippy, and broken, including now.
Yo imagine Tera types in a team tournament.
Person 1: guys what Tera should I run on flutter mane.
Person 2: Run Tera fire to beat steel types.
Person 3: yea but I’ve seen a lot of Tera water iron treads recently.
Person 2: go Tera grass just in case then.
Person 4: GUYS! What if I run Tera Dark Iron Moth to beat sabeleye. Not only that, STAB sludge wave can beat fairy types with boostwe
Person 2: good luck losing to Tera steel iron valiant.
Person 4: THAT’S WHY WE RUN FLAME CHARGE BABY!!! THE IRON BUGG IS IN
This meta won’t have established grounds until mid to late 2023 I’d imagine
Person 1: guys what Tera should I run on flutter mane.
Person 2: Run Tera fire to beat steel types.
Person 3: yea but I’ve seen a lot of Tera water iron treads recently.
Person 2: go Tera grass just in case then.
Person 4: GUYS! What if I run Tera Dark Iron Moth to beat sabeleye. Not only that, STAB sludge wave can beat fairy types with boostwe
Person 2: good luck losing to Tera steel iron valiant.
Person 4: THAT’S WHY WE RUN FLAME CHARGE BABY!!! THE IRON BUGG IS IN
This meta won’t have established grounds until mid to late 2023 I’d imagine
So this sucks! I don't think anyone is happy about this situation for one reason or another. I know it's kind of stale at this point, considering the entire thread consists of little but "ban tera" (until these last few posts), but I do want to argue for why I think tera should have been banned today because I think we've been a little sparse on arguments and a little heavy on outrage. Some people, correctly or not but definitely understandably, have got the impression that the reactions here have in fact been reactions - not arguments, just band-wagoning without giving anything time to settle or giving tera a chance. Despite the seeming >90% consensus among high level players, the movement against tera is further undermined by the fact that as of now (with some uncertainty added because of the poor verbiage), only 44% of the 1v1 room has a negative opinion of tera. Here's my full take on the matter.
Tera allows any Pokemon to be any indeterminable defensive type. It also exclusively bolsters Pokemon offensively, having no opportunity cost. Every Pokemon on every team is built to utilize tera whether or not they use it in an individual game. We've seen so far that a large majority of matchups, much more so than any previous meta, are not able to be reliably predicted. When I click my Choice Specs Magnezone into Fini in SS, I can be nearly certain that I will win that matchup. When I click my anything into anything in SV, I am at the mercy of whatever tera type my opponent has selected. In ladder situations, this is already being used to incredible effect to cteam. In tour situations, where your opponent is bringing fresh teams, things will be even worse because you cannot know what tera types your opponent has. Tour players are already incredibly crafty with their cteaming abilities and the addition of this will create an entire guessing game happening not only at team preview, not only after the click when you decide to tera, not tera, set up, scout, or attack, but also in the teambuilder, and one which has no real skill component.
Some of the play revolving around tera does add skill components to the game such as predicting team comp, but this is outweighed drastically by the non-skill components introduced by it. I think that it's nearly inarguable that the skill cap is reduced by the presence of tera, which you could think of in terms of a hypothetical perfectly skilled player having a lower win % in a tera meta than a non-tera meta. A mechanic which allows all Pokemon to be any indeterminable defensive type at no cost is absolutely not fit for a competitive 1v1. I say all of this having given every opportunity to the tera meta to prove itself. I asked to vote on Sunday while other council members wanted to vote earlier. In this time I engaged with the emerging meta extensively. I played over 250 games, achieved a peak ELO of 1600, and a GXE of 67.2. The only grace I did not give to this meta was the waiting period which has now been instated, and I think should be revoked. I do not see any way that this will develop into a healthy meta and while people crying about 3 days was supremely theatrical, 2 weeks really is a substantial amount of time for what I would consider a foregone conclusion - that tera will be banned. It's very early in the gen and people are very excited to develop the meta. The meta that's being developed right now will not exist in a month and I think we need to take action.
While not very vocal, there have been some real anti-ban arguments which I'd also like to address. The first is that tera may move in a "neutral type" direction, where players more often aim to end up in even type matchups for the sake of consistency rather than constantly out-edging one another on the tera front. This is actually something that I've been utilizing since my first team and is a very real aspect of gameplay in the tera meta. However, neutral type gameplay can really only exist relative to the typing meta. While there are typings that are almost never tera'd into, there are are also no typings which do not have common weaknesses. Despite dark, ghost, and bug tera being extremely niche options, Psychic does not perform well as a neutral typing because of the abundance of viable dark and ghost types which still have their offensive STABs regardless of their tera type. The only typing which really holds any merit as a neutral typing right now is water, which is still not immune to the abundance of cteaming options that tera opens and is still weak to the very prevalent Iron Fists. While neutral type gameplay is a part of the tera meta, it will always be advantageous to use your tera to achieve type advantages more often than not and this cannot go away. Another proposition briefly tossed around was to try removing Tera Blast rather than tera itself, but the problematic elements of tera come vastly more from the defensive type change than the new offensive potential and this does nothing to address that. Another direction that the meta could take is moving even more heavily in the direction of scouting by using moves like Protect and Substitute to scout for your opponent's tera before taking action. While this is a very effective strategy in the current meta, it does very little to mitigate the issues seen at team preview and actually introduces more guessing games in the form of the choices of attacking, scouting, setting up, and revealing or holding off on tera. Beyond these, the meta-argument here is that it's valuable to hold off to give the meta a chance to develop. I think this is sufficiently addressed by the absurd degree to which tera is uncompetitive. It is several magnitudes more uncompetitive than any other mechanic we've had in 1v1 and I don't believe that there is any possible compatibility between a maximally competitive environment and the presence of tera.
I understand why the community is upset about this ruling. I am too. However, I would like to remind everyone that our tier leaders and tiering admins are real humans who are really doing their best, and whose real mental health can be affected by the community outrage. I've been on the other end of this a few times and maybe I'm just a huge pussy but it really fucked me up for a while. Consider also that this is effectively just cooperation on our tier leader's part with what the admins have said is best, and that the admins are mostly involved with 6v6 affairs. Things are different in 1v1, which is why I still think that we should be taking this step now, but that's not something that they could have had the knowledge of to inform their judgement.
Please be kind. Nalei out.
Tera allows any Pokemon to be any indeterminable defensive type. It also exclusively bolsters Pokemon offensively, having no opportunity cost. Every Pokemon on every team is built to utilize tera whether or not they use it in an individual game. We've seen so far that a large majority of matchups, much more so than any previous meta, are not able to be reliably predicted. When I click my Choice Specs Magnezone into Fini in SS, I can be nearly certain that I will win that matchup. When I click my anything into anything in SV, I am at the mercy of whatever tera type my opponent has selected. In ladder situations, this is already being used to incredible effect to cteam. In tour situations, where your opponent is bringing fresh teams, things will be even worse because you cannot know what tera types your opponent has. Tour players are already incredibly crafty with their cteaming abilities and the addition of this will create an entire guessing game happening not only at team preview, not only after the click when you decide to tera, not tera, set up, scout, or attack, but also in the teambuilder, and one which has no real skill component.
Some of the play revolving around tera does add skill components to the game such as predicting team comp, but this is outweighed drastically by the non-skill components introduced by it. I think that it's nearly inarguable that the skill cap is reduced by the presence of tera, which you could think of in terms of a hypothetical perfectly skilled player having a lower win % in a tera meta than a non-tera meta. A mechanic which allows all Pokemon to be any indeterminable defensive type at no cost is absolutely not fit for a competitive 1v1. I say all of this having given every opportunity to the tera meta to prove itself. I asked to vote on Sunday while other council members wanted to vote earlier. In this time I engaged with the emerging meta extensively. I played over 250 games, achieved a peak ELO of 1600, and a GXE of 67.2. The only grace I did not give to this meta was the waiting period which has now been instated, and I think should be revoked. I do not see any way that this will develop into a healthy meta and while people crying about 3 days was supremely theatrical, 2 weeks really is a substantial amount of time for what I would consider a foregone conclusion - that tera will be banned. It's very early in the gen and people are very excited to develop the meta. The meta that's being developed right now will not exist in a month and I think we need to take action.
While not very vocal, there have been some real anti-ban arguments which I'd also like to address. The first is that tera may move in a "neutral type" direction, where players more often aim to end up in even type matchups for the sake of consistency rather than constantly out-edging one another on the tera front. This is actually something that I've been utilizing since my first team and is a very real aspect of gameplay in the tera meta. However, neutral type gameplay can really only exist relative to the typing meta. While there are typings that are almost never tera'd into, there are are also no typings which do not have common weaknesses. Despite dark, ghost, and bug tera being extremely niche options, Psychic does not perform well as a neutral typing because of the abundance of viable dark and ghost types which still have their offensive STABs regardless of their tera type. The only typing which really holds any merit as a neutral typing right now is water, which is still not immune to the abundance of cteaming options that tera opens and is still weak to the very prevalent Iron Fists. While neutral type gameplay is a part of the tera meta, it will always be advantageous to use your tera to achieve type advantages more often than not and this cannot go away. Another proposition briefly tossed around was to try removing Tera Blast rather than tera itself, but the problematic elements of tera come vastly more from the defensive type change than the new offensive potential and this does nothing to address that. Another direction that the meta could take is moving even more heavily in the direction of scouting by using moves like Protect and Substitute to scout for your opponent's tera before taking action. While this is a very effective strategy in the current meta, it does very little to mitigate the issues seen at team preview and actually introduces more guessing games in the form of the choices of attacking, scouting, setting up, and revealing or holding off on tera. Beyond these, the meta-argument here is that it's valuable to hold off to give the meta a chance to develop. I think this is sufficiently addressed by the absurd degree to which tera is uncompetitive. It is several magnitudes more uncompetitive than any other mechanic we've had in 1v1 and I don't believe that there is any possible compatibility between a maximally competitive environment and the presence of tera.
I understand why the community is upset about this ruling. I am too. However, I would like to remind everyone that our tier leaders and tiering admins are real humans who are really doing their best, and whose real mental health can be affected by the community outrage. I've been on the other end of this a few times and maybe I'm just a huge pussy but it really fucked me up for a while. Consider also that this is effectively just cooperation on our tier leader's part with what the admins have said is best, and that the admins are mostly involved with 6v6 affairs. Things are different in 1v1, which is why I still think that we should be taking this step now, but that's not something that they could have had the knowledge of to inform their judgement.
Please be kind. Nalei out.
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