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G-Luke

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I directed you to the video because it will literally take the same amount of time to explain why exactly I am not convinced (by the evidence that's come out so far) he is the sick individual the leftist media portrays him as. I do believe he is stupid for open carrying in that area as that puts himself and others at risk. But those are two very different arguments.

If you are interested to learn more than the leftist headline Finchinator so kindly put into this thread for us, please do check out the video I posted, it is between two well-known leftist online personalities who I respect and follow quite a bit.
Firstly, Destiny is a liberal, not a leftist. Most of his political stances don't really align with traditional leftist views. Also, he defended the murder of the protestants and basically said people should murder protestors with impunity.

Secondly, even outside of the obvious murderous intent that scumbag had when he went over to the area, the main concern is how he was handled by police. He signaled to them, they let him through and give the dude water, only arrested him the following day after social media outrage. All of this mere days after a black man was repeatedly pelted with bullets in his back for resisting arrest.
 
I think most of the outrage against Kyle Rittenhouse has less to do with the 'justified self-defense' or 'cold-blooded murderer' debate, and everything that do with the difference between how he, someone with armed weapon at a protest who just shot and killed more than one person, was treated by the police vs. how other peaceful protesters/POC are treated by the police. The bulk of the outrage I've seen against him is on the basis of 'white vs. nonwhite privilege' and he is used as an example of why our police need to be reformed.

Anyway, and this is a genuine question, how big is the 'undecided' voter-base this election, anyway? I feel like we, as a country, are more polarized than ever. People don't just 'dislike' Trump, they VEHEMENTLY HATE his guts. And the contrary is seems to be true, too. I think Biden's best shot at winning is pulling people who don't usually show up to the polls- like the younger generations. I could be wrong, though.
I think this point is extremely fair. Kyle should have been arrested right then and there, and he should have gone through the legal process just like anybody else. My problem is the narrative that Finchinator is championing in this thread, which is unfortunately also the narrative that is being portrayed in a lot of leftist media, albeit completely unverified.

There are a lot of swing voters, still, even if there are less than there would be usually. You need to keep in mind that the extremes are much louder, especially in times like these.
 

Hipmonlee

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I'd like to walk us back from just accepting that shooting people at a protest is an ok thing to do. I mean, obviously I'm not gonna watch an hour and a half video on this, but I kinda want to be clear on that.

It's not reasonable to escalate a situation to one where physical force is necessary and then kill someone to protect yourself. Turning up to a riot with a gun is obviously a fucking provocative thing to do. He wasnt just innocently minding his own business when some evil rioters decided to attack him...

Obviously we dont really know what led to the video footage. But I just don't want us to pretend like this kid's behaviour is not utterly vile.
 

vonFiedler

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If someone was to shoot Kyle Rittenhouse before he shot anyone would that be considered murder or self-defense because he had a deadly weapon and showed lethal intent?
Did this theoretical person shoot three people after getting a bag thrown at them, after crossing state lines with an illegal weapon, were they in any way linked to what the FBI calls the greatest terrorist threat to the united states? Sure these fuckheads are routinely coming into our cities (I can speak for mine) and killing black people or getting themselves killed, but it's never their fault right?
 
i wrote this almost 4 years ago when i was still a lib and it's STILL more apt than ever in smogon political discourse. how are u guys still unable to grasp the inextricable relationship between racism and capitalism & the efficacy of 'peaceful' protest after it has been explained 100x. y'all should read so the conversation moves at a slightly less glacial pace.

i was going to reply to a GotR post directed at me following my condemnation of non-violence as inherently 'better' but i can't seem to find it. so i'll flesh out my thoughts here.

before i delve into why i feel as though violence shouldn't be wafted away in progressive movements, i think it's important to establish what protests are meant to achieve. they are mechanisms of effecting change and disrupting the state--ways of mobilising folx en masse in order to achieve a goal. in the face of patriarchy, capitalism, colonialism et al., protests like worker strikes and sit-ins have been integral for the betterment of labor. although individual workers in our society lack the means of self-liberation, gatherings allow for a much more pronounced statement in the battle against oppressors.

it's also important to establish that my acknowledgment of violence as a useful and sometimes necessary mechanism of change doesn't mean that i am pro-violence. often, discussions of nonviolence are unproductive because champions of 'safety' and 'non-harmful methods' create a false dichotomy of non-violence vs violence. to address us as solely violent actors is a misconception. instead, i believe that progressive actors should consider every tool in their toolbox and determine the best method of action. sometimes, this might be violence. often it is not. doing away with historically effective methods of protest under an arbitrary moral guise is a misguided action.

nonviolence is doing the work of the state for the state. pacifists pushing for nonviolent methods in the face of an unsympathetic bureaucracy allows for the state to establish dominion of violence. the state wishes for a nonviolent opposition--they're far easier to ignore and have far weaker of a chokehold. feel free to march around washington exclaiming transphobic, white feministy 'pussies fight back' mantras, but how will this coalition effectively curtail the heinous policies the state wishes to enact? what are the effects of your march? therein lies the problem: nonviolent coalitions are often historically far less effective.

now you may just falsely cling onto gandhi, martin luther king jr., et al. with your whitewashed history and wish to prove me wrong. your knowledge of history, however, is from the mouth of the coloniser. the history taught in our public education system is from a patriotic, winner's perspective. look no further than the accounts of american imperialism and east-asian hegemony being obfuscated under the guise of a 'bad guy' or 'democracy' in order to understand the very framing that you've been taught. to promote martin luther king as the messiah of the civil rights movement is to ignore the black panthers party that helped espouse national movements and allow him to gain a foothold. to espouse mlk's tactics as superior is to ignore the power that black revolutionaries and resistors afforded him.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-how-nonviolence-protects-the-state

"In the spring of 1963, Martin Luther King Jr.‘s Birmingham campaign was looking like it would be a repeat of the dismally failed action in Albany, Georgia (where a 9 month civil disobedience campaign in 1961 demonstrated the powerlessness of nonviolent protesters against a government with seemingly bottomless jails, and where, on July 24, 1962, rioting youth took over whole blocks for a night and forced the police to retreat from the ghetto, demonstrating that a year after the nonviolent campaign, black people in Albany still struggled against racism, but they had lost their preference for nonviolence). Then, on May 7 in Birmingham, after continued police violence, three thousand black people began fighting back, pelting the police with rocks and bottles. Just two days later, Birmingham — up until then an inflexible bastion of segregation — agreed to desegregate downtown stores, and President Kennedy backed the agreement with federal guarantees. The next day, after local white supremacists bombed a black home and a black business, thousands of black people rioted again, seizing a 9 block area, destroying police cars, injuring several cops (including the chief inspector), and burning white businesses. A month and a day later, President Kennedy was calling for Congress to pass the Civil Rights Act, ending several years of a strategy to stall the civil rights movement. Perhaps the largest of the limited, if not hollow, victories of the civil rights movement came when black people demonstrated they would not remain peaceful forever. Faced with the two alternatives, the white power structure chose to negotiate with the pacifists, and we have seen the results."

being a pacifist also comes from a place of privilege. guess what loves, violence is already here. the state has already worked against radical movements through methods including but not limited to: assassinations, provocateurs, black-jacketing, etc. the cointelpro program, which is still alive and well today, worked towards silencing and 'neutralising' folx who were pushing against the state. not only that, but racist, patriarchal [et al.] structural violence through policies like the war on drugs, police violence, redlining of houses, the school to prison pipeline, etc. are already forming violence. they are tools of the state systematically crafted in order to create capital. there is a direct link between extraction of capital and societal oppression.

it is privilege which blinds you to these structures as you're not affected by them. it is privilege which says that the white pacifism pushing towards black liberation is enough to stop the imprisonment and slave labor that is happening. it is privilege which allows white people to gain social and economic capital from supporting black movements yet not actually supporting black people. it is privilege to write heartfelt letters to your senators while many folks affected by us imperialism are fighting for their lives. it is privilege to erase history and rewrite it in your own nonviolent pacifistic guise. it is privilege to have a patronising, patriarchal stance against those who commit acts of violence because their oppression is part and parcel to their livelihood. it is privilege to say that other issues are more important--that our own forced migration of native americans and now elimination of their water sources isn't of concern.

sometimes you just have to fight back. resist with purpose.
 
Tenshi blm employs a marxist lens as part of their framework because it articulates the relationship between labor and capital. it defines the worker as an axis of oppression and understands the landscape of a capitalistic society to be parasitic toward the worker's life force. it isn't a 'marxist' organization; however, it develops upon theories of exploitation to better understand how blackness is situated in the u.s. empire. capitalism is anti-black! we've said this 100x and black authors have said it way better than we ever could. try reading.

here's your tokenized fave, mlk, discussing this very thing! http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html
 
Finchinator how do you hold non violence as a truism in a society steeped in violence? born out of violence? whose social contract is violence? whose economic system is violence? how do you not understand that the very truth looting exposes, the tacit social agreement that people are less valuable than property, is what needs to be eradicated?

obligatory angela davis interview and foundational articulation of what 'violence' is

 
Violence is bad. Burn down property and I vote for the party that advocates against burning down/destroying the property. Really isn't a controversial thing to say. And me going from democratic --> republican is worth twice as much as you going from non voter --> democratic.

Not that it's coming down to that point, anyways. Media is way overhyping the violence/looting that is happening. But if it actually was as widespread as the media was saying it was, you bet your ass I'm voting for the party that advocates against that.
 

Hipmonlee

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Ok, so refusing to condemn violence is unacceptable, but refusing to condemn the president's advocacy of violence is ok?

I mean it feels like the republican in this position is playing the same game as the shooter, just to different degrees. You escalate things, you let your boss advocate violence for you, you claim to denounce violence, but you do nothing to stop it. And then when someone reacts, which, obviously someone is bound to eventually, you exploit that to your advantage.

If there was a republican out there actually making a good faith attempt to help here, then, sure, vote for them. But I dont believe such a person exists. I mean it seems like there is barely a handful of democrats doing that either...

[Edit] - On second thought I think we might have had a miscommunication around my use of the word "expect". I meant it like, "in order for you to vote for them would you expect that they must first condemn Trump" whereas I think you read it as "do you think that it is likely that they will condemn Trump"
 

Finchinator

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Finchinator how do you hold non violence as a truism in a society steeped in violence? born out of violence? whose social contract is violence? whose economic system is violence? how do you not understand that the very truth looting exposes, the tacit social agreement that people are less valuable than property, is what needs to be eradicated?

obligatory angela davis interview and foundational articulation of what 'violence' is

I read your first post and you bring up a valid point. I really have not thought about it this way; my scope was limited to not wanting to see anyone else put in harms way, but perhaps that is a necessary evil when people are already put in harms way due to the flaws in how our societies function as is. Seems as if it is an inevitability. I really have not thought about this topic in this fashion before. I think the excerpt on the civil rights protests (again, from your first post) puts it in perspective perfectly.

Do I condone violence? Still, no, but I understand that when push comes to shove, we need to improve as a society and racial justice/equality is a must. I would rather violence lead to positive reform than violence be a product of a corrupt system that we currently have in place. In an ideal world, we would not have to weigh out these two options, but I think we can all agree nothing about this situation and not much about current society is ideal. I think what matters most at the end of the days is that we accomplish the goals the protests set out to achieve. The means of doing so will never be pretty as we know, but that is something that we must accept. As someone who cares for the well-being of others, I do not want to see people's livelihoods compromised through businesses burning down or assaults/murders, but I recognize the importance of a protest that refuses to relent when met with unjust resistance. Thanks for your explanation
 
Ok, so refusing to condemn violence is unacceptable, but refusing to condemn the president's advocacy of violence is ok?

I mean it feels like the republican in this position is playing the same game as the shooter, just to different degrees. You escalate things, you let your boss advocate violence for you, you claim to denounce violence, but you do nothing to stop it. And then when someone reacts, which, obviously someone is bound to eventually, you exploit that to your advantage.

If there was a republican out there actually making a good faith attempt to help here, then, sure, vote for them. But I dont believe such a person exists. I mean it seems like there is barely a handful of democrats doing that either...

[Edit] - On second thought I think we might have had a miscommunication around my use of the word "expect". I meant it like, "in order for you to vote for them would you expect that they must first condemn Trump" whereas I think you read it as "do you think that it is likely that they will condemn Trump"
I don't have a disagreement with you here. I think Trump has made the situation worse, and Republicans aren't doing anything about it. I'm just saying that if it came down to people who are advocating for violence vs people advocating for peace... I would go with the latter for obvious reasons. This is probably more relevant in a democratic primary than anything.
 

Luck O' the Irish

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dtc i feel like i can only assume u stopped reading dice's post as soon as the word "violence" was written and your immediate response was "violence is bad lol". the whole purpose of discussing violence is not the usage of violence for the sake of violence but that violence usually plays an important role in the oppressed working to overcome an oppressor. at no point did dice argue that peace is bad or less preferable to violence. especially after reading finch's response to dice's post im not rly sure where the disconnect is
 
dtc i feel like i can only assume u stopped reading dice's post as soon as the word "violence" was written and your immediate response was "violence is bad lol". the whole purpose of discussing violence is not the usage of violence for the sake of violence but that violence usually plays an important role in the oppressed working to overcome an oppressor. at no point did dice argue that peace is bad or less preferable to violence. especially after reading finch's response to dice's post im not rly sure where the disconnect is
I disagree that poor people are "oppressed" by a "violent" system. We already have a bunch of welfare programs and a very progressive income tax. Almost 50% of the country does not even pay a federal income tax. I do think there are systemic barriers to poor people becoming getting out of poverty, so I'm open to making it even more "progressive" by increasing the capital gains tax rate, fixing carried interest, and other policies.
 

Luck O' the Irish

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I disagree that poor people are "oppressed" by a "violent" system. We already have a bunch of welfare programs and a very progressive income tax. Almost 50% of the country does not even pay a federal income tax. I do think there are systemic barriers to poor people becoming getting out of poverty, so I'm open to making it even more "progressive" by increasing the capital gains tax rate, fixing carried interest, and other policies.
This post misses the point of why violence is being discussed in the first place- usage of it wrt protests occurring due to cops killing Black people and the state doing nothing to bring these cops to justice or acknowledge the numerous systemic issues within American policing. It’s all well and fine you’d be down for a more “progressive” tax system but that’s not really the issue being discussed rn
 

MAMP

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is the idea of getting rid of first past the post voting something that gets talked about much in the states? most of the world has moved on to various forms of proportional representation or ranked voting, and i feel like that would help to break up the 2 party system, or at least weaken it
 
The main thing we hear about third parties is people insulting anyone who votes third party, blaming them for Republicans winning, 'you're just as bad as Trump voters' etc. I would say that most 'normal' people either don't know or don't care about things like ranked choice voting, it's mainly the weirdos/people who actually do vote third party who care about that. There are cities and states that do have ranked voting though so maybe I'm underestimating how much people want things changed.
 

Bughouse

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1) The office of the president could never inherently be proportional as it's a single office. Whether a state could perhaps use ranked voting in deciding who wins the state's electoral votes is a bit of an open question as no one has tried it before. Maine is in a legal battle over it right now, but it doesn't seem likely it will happen for 2020.
The actual "election" for president is done among the electoral college and states have considerable leeway in determining who those electors are and how they will be expected to vote based on the popular election. For example, Maine and Nebraska allow the votes to be somewhat split, based on results in each individual congressional district. If this were the case nationwide, you might see different and more proportional results, but also you might see even more and worse gerrymandering since effectively now it doesn't only impact the house, but also the presidency. Really the solution here is much more just making the presidency a straight-up popular vote, though this is also tricky. It could possibly be achieved without any constitutional amendment through the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC), though this is debated, and also isn't super enforceable if a state reneges on its word.

2) For congress, any change away from 535 separate local elections would require constitutional amendment, period. The notion of the outcomes in the nation as a whole or even within each state needing to be proportional to votes in aggregate among districts is just not constitutional. This will never happen, imo.

3) States have considerable leeway in how primaries and elections are conducted. For example, some areas have various forms of "jungle primaries" which generally means instead of there being a D primary and a R primary, plus third party primaries, all candidates are put into one primary, the top 2 candidates of which then face off in the general, even if they are from the same party, as happens in super blue or super red areas. A number of states now do ranked choice voting in their primaries as well. As noted in the linked article above, Maine recently implemented ranked choice voting even in its actual elections, first for statewide office like governor and then later for congressional elections. It has already proved important twice.

4) You specifically called out the US election system as first past the post, but this is not entirely true. Some states use runoff elections in the primaries and a few even do so in the general election. Not for president, since that runs into constitutional issues again but for state or even congressional offices.

5) While I think fixing all of this stuff is good on principle, I think that expecting it to result in more credible 3rd parties who actually get elected is overly optimistic. There are so many other factors holding back their success beyond just first past the post voting.
 
Ranked ballots are a bad idea for presidential elections unless it's adopted simultaneously for all states (based on national vote). If it had any effect whatsoever, it would only enable third parties to win locally, allowing for the spoiler effect at the state level. Imagine Bernie winning only Vermont, while Biden won 20 other states. Trump winning 28 states, and Romney winning Utah. It wouldn't be beneficial for anyone.

I think you could do a lot of good in congressional elections by just getting rid of primaries and doing a ranked ballot 1-shot vote on election day. Prevents hyper-partisans on both sides from controlling the nomination process and should result in a winner who more accurately represents the district.
 

Bughouse

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Ranked ballots are a bad idea for presidential elections unless it's adopted simultaneously for all states (based on national vote). If it had any effect whatsoever, it would only enable third parties to win locally, allowing for the spoiler effect at the state level. Imagine Bernie winning only Vermont, while Biden won 20 other states. Trump winning 28 states, and Romney winning Utah. It wouldn't be beneficial for anyone.

I think you could do a lot of good in congressional elections by just getting rid of primaries and doing a ranked ballot 1-shot vote on election day. Prevents hyper-partisans on both sides from controlling the nomination process and should result in a winner who more accurately represents the district.
actually to be clear, this would be incredibly beneficial to republicans/whoever is winning the most individual states. But given population distribution that means Republicans.

When no candidate gets to 270, the election goes to the House, where each state votes once on behalf of its collective house delegation in a contingency election. So even if the 20 Biden states have more total members of the house than the 28 Trump states and even if there are more Democratic members of the House than Republican, the House would elect Trump. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1824_United_States_presidential_election
 
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