Smogon Forums

Yep, zam has been rising in usage for a long time now, its just so hard to remove him if you dont play a full counter. And he hurts.

Ye, fat rachi isn't exactly the most ideal pkmn to use and not much else counters it all too well

I always played SPDef Rachi with Protect (something people started dropping a few months before I stopped) but it always felt like if I didnt run Protect, I wouldnt get Wish to land on Rachi (would have to switch/risk losing Rachi) since unless you ran Body Slam, people played around Twave a lot, which made it quite bad choice. And Body Slam was absolute trash against every team that wasnt HO or close to HO because you'd rather burn or poison most not totally aggressive mons. I always liked Spdef Scizor (in gen6 its even better coz with scizorite ppl didnt expect pursuit), u dont have to play the prediction game with BP/Pursuit, you can just go for Pursuit since FB was 2hko only with Rocks up (assuming no Spdef drop from SB). So yea, I either played Scizor or played Sand with Stout to revenge, was never a fan of Scarf, bar very specific mons.

Main issue w fat rachi is its passive and let's spikes up easy and let's fat waters recover easy - it's fine on bulkier builds for sure but those are often not troubled by classic sash Zam while offense builds struggle moreso and don't appreciate using SDef rachi which is why it's a bit of an issue

Also yea fat sciz is great, I like SD Uturn too but pursuit works oftentimes haha

Every rachi is shit vs common spike users and waters, outside of the Ebelt variant and CM with Tbolt. Yea, I've ran SD Uturn Scizor a lot but it felt so underwhelming when people realized how to play around it - same as ScarfZor (even tho it is insane vs Sash openers).

A lot of people have been using SR Shuca Rachi with fire or electric move which was nice to lure spikes setters, but otherwise - yea

I also feel like sd Uturn scizor is more good for opening doors and gaining momentum and walling things, not necessarily making progress in its own

Yea, SR Shuca Rachi started being a thing right before I stopped, but even that without HP Fire is setup fodder. Tbolt cant hurt most waters, you pretty much aim Tentacruel and possibly Politoed with that. I do not think that even full def Jelli would get 2hko from 0 ev Tbolt, surely 2hko from 252 ev Tbolt vs 0 ev tho. Scizor is just too slow and one dimensional tho, the thing that switches in probably gets a resisted hit and dealing damage to it. The one time I ran SD Scizor in a succesful team it was SD/Roost/BP/Uturn with a spread that didnt get 2hko from BS Gengar FB without SR. I found Landorus-T with sub and U-turn a much better alternative for momentum and plowing through stuff, you wall quite different stuff tho.

Have you ever tried pursuit/Uturn/BP/roost scizor w/ fat EVs? Also, another thing that checks Zam fairly well is Chople Tar - that's a boner mom for me, for sure, but it doesn't have the best survivability long haul as you also want it to set up SR, check Latis, and set sand vs Rain

Also, usually it's a roll to 2HKO Jellicent after SR and sand with TBolt, iirc, with Shuca Rachi while TBolt mainly hits Skarm, puts Poli in range for 2HKO/Pursuit from Tar, gyara trying to set up thinking you're SDef and can't break sub, or slowbro/slowking, which have gained some popularity. I've ran a lot of iron head icy wind TBolt w/ SR but on occasion I drop iron head and go full special W HP fire so the only things totally safe are really Heatran and hippo, so I like Shuca Rachi on offense as long as it's paired with a solid revenge killer as back up for zammer and a hard hitter as back up for reuni

Im pretty sure I was one of the first to use Pursuit/BP/Uturn/Roost Scizor with almost maxed HP and SPdef EVs to kill Zam and Gar and yea, as I said above too, I have used it with success on the ladder in Gen6 too (with scizorite tho). Chople Tar is trying to do too much with a single mon imo. If you are set on its role it can be wonderful though. Right, Skarmory was so rare when I still played that I didnt even remember it xD When I played SR Rachi, I usually put it together with BandTar and played FB/Pursuit/Crunch/SE with a -def nature. Of course, in most of those teams Stoutland was there too to avoid having to use Scarf on anything so it worked pretty decent unless Zam hit 3 or 4 FBs in a row. Slowbro wasnt that good for a long time when I played, even non LO Terrakion without SD up could 2hko after SR dmg + Sand. I cannot imagine Slowking being good, its typing only helps vs Fire and Water types. Celebi is MUCH better imo, also a much wider movepool, albeit weaker offensive typing which is quite the deal since Scald is just broken.

HP bug keldeo became a thing, water spam with ice beam users grew, Tornadus with sharp beak became more common, etc -- Celebi has been vastly regarded as mediocre over the past year or two while slowking trended upwards

Also yea, scald is borked and that helps it ofc

Is fire blast worth it on CB tar btw, you're still doing so much to everything w stone edge that it doesn't seem worthwhile to me imo

HP Bug/Electric Keldeo with Ebelt has been a thing forever but thats nothing. I always ran Spdef Celebi so Ice Beams from water types wasnt something to worry about. Sharp Beak Tornadus sounds a bit hilarious but I guess it works if ppl run it, not that it makes celebi worse - you dont run celebi to switch into Torn. I always ran FireBlast, almost regardless of TTar set, coz most of my teams had a bad matchup vs Forretress and a hard time removing Spikes vs Ferrothorn (Iuck Fron Barbs) or no Spike removal at all. And as you know, most of my teams were on the bulky offense and semi stall type, I could rarely fit a spinner or Xatu. It takes prediction but it is almost an instant win if you hit FB on a Ferro or Forry. It also hides the set well if SR isnt up, since ppl never expect FB on CB Tar.

HP Bug arguably dropped in popularity and then trended again lately, but HP Grass (for gastro) has also gained some steam

Fire blast on tar does pressure spoilers, yes, but CB super does more (kills!) ferro and CB stone edge 2HKOs Skarm like fire blast, so I just don't see it as necessary bc nobody ever uses forry nowadays, but I always run fire blast or Magnezone on non-choice Tar

In regards to Celebi overall, it just doesn't see much usage anymore for a variety of factors including the ones I listed above but it just sorta fell out of favor, I guess it's not bad, just doesn't fit into as many builds as it did before

Gastro always felt very underwhelming unless I played against it with one very stally team. SE has slightly lower accuracy than FB and Superpower only kills stuff like opposing Ttar, Ferro and possibly a wild Terakkion, it offers no further coverage since Rock and Dark are quite solid for neutral damage - Most Fighting types dont want to switch into a TTar and TTar cant OHKO most of them anyway. Dont get me wrong, I've tried Superpower, but most of my teams have more issues with Forry over Terrakion, since like you said, it is quite underused so I often dont take it into account. I guess I can try to build a new semi stall team with Celebi and try to climb the best I can, gotta find the motivation tho xD

What Celebi set do you use generally?

Support is almost never seen, BP and NP are used /sometimes/

my fav one was perish song/bp/psychic or giga drain/recover. it shit on almost every setup sweeper in the game and couldnt get pursuited.

Sounds like full support, doesn't do much in some match ups but I guess on a fat team it glues you together against bulky set up and wins some games

Yea, if you run Giga Drain, it does almost nothing, but you can force switches with Perish Song vs stall. BP also helps because it always happens after the opponent switches, which takes away a lot of prediction for me. I made a team a few hours ago, might go test it later. Which BW ladder is more active PO or Smogon?

PS ladder is actually sorta active right now because the BW OU OLT (ladder tour) is happening

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-un-official-bw-ladder-tournament-cycle-2.3577816/

PO is kinda dying out, sadly, and the ladders are, too

why is it tho? also, whats the rating(s) that hold weight in the smogon ladder. iirc there were like 4 stats but only 1 or 2 were actually useful.