Announcement Believe - Snivy Suspect Test

[Coconut]

There's a whole lotta work, we should roll up our sleeves...
​

Snivy, long forgotten a threat of previous generations is back to reap the benefits of being gone for so long. Surviving the "dexit" cuts of this generation, Snivy returns to form with the same strength it left with, and a new trick up its sleeve—Terastallization. In previous generations, Snivy was seen as a one-note Pokemon, the game plan being to use Leaf Storm, coupled with Contrary to quickly boost its Special Attack stat. This turned the garden snake into an immediate threat, as giving it free turns could potentially snowball the Pokemon out of control. The biggest flaw at the time was its pitiful move pool, with a decent selection of support moves and Hidden Power being its best coverage option. Snivy was blessed with one of the most threatening options at the cost of being stuck with just Grass moves and Hidden Power, which designated it as a wallbreaker first, and a sweeper second in several situations. Snivy could also be shut down in several ways, with things like Gastly and Foongus being reliable answers to remove Snivy from the field, along with anything faster than it or priority users being able to win if Snivy attempted to set up on the wrong choice.

With the advent of the current generation, Snivy returned to the metagame with DLC2 with a passion, still blowing through walls with its tried and true Leaf Storm, but this time something has changed. Snivy has not only coverage from Tera, but the ability to change types to something more defensive, to run through its most reliable checks. Snivy now has a reliable way to beat its most dedicated answers, a safe option to curtail priority users. Snivy has coverage, not just coverage, but coverage with STAB, a massive improvement from a Hidden Power. But Snivy wasn't done, more complex sets like the often niche Scarf Snivy set became a paramount set. Coupled with Tera Grass, Leaf Storm went from a powerful move to a game-changing option which became even stronger with each use of the move. Snivy's ability to blow through checks, sweep even the most prepared teams, and delete entire Pokemon given the chance, has led us to a suspect test.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE​	minimum games​
78​	50​
78.2​	49​
78.4​	48​
78.6​	47​
78.8​	46​
79​	45​
79.2​	44​
79.4​	43​
79.6​	42​
79.8​	41​
80​	40​
80.2​	39​
80.4​	38​
80.6​	37​
80.8​	36​
81​	35​
81.2​	34​
81.4​	33​
81.6​	32​
81.8​	31​
82​	30​

For this suspect test, we will be using the regular SV LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with "LCSTORM" to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Snivy will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Saturday, February 9th at 10:00 PM GMT-5.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one-liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

...Don't believe in the stats, to the contrary.​

 

[genisu]

In the beginning after DLC dropped, I found Snivy completely broken with very limited counterplay. As the metagame has developed I have changed my opinions quite a bit. There are only 2 main good sets(scarf and evio), both are walled by many mons and often have trouble making progress as they cant switch into anything. Resisting teras like steel are quite common and Snivy has trouble getting past, as once you scout the set you can send in the right check. Bringing Snivy answers doesnt require using unmons, as many above A tiered pokemon can beat it, like SteelFoo, Vullaby, Stunky,Gastly, and Foongus. Snivy also serves as a much needed ho answer(idk why im saying this :( ). Happy laddering and gl to everyone!

 

[Hacker]

incredibly easy ban vote

SteelFoo, Vullaby, Stunky,Gastly, and Foongus.

steel foo has to play speed ties to not just die to tera blast, getting glared is terrible asw
get up rocks and vullaby dies to leaf storm into tera blast
gastly gets glared and is no longer a pokemon
above applies to stunky
foongus is the closest thing we have to a snivy check but just +2 tera blast and kill it lol

point being, this mon does not have a single reliable check and is virtually impossible to cover in the builder. evio snivy owns every singular team, and scarf snivy beats all the teams that are "good" into evio snivy

so yeah this thing is pretty clearly too much

 

[Éric]

here comes my opinion on snivy, which spoiler im in the no ban side.

i believe snivy is not broken and shouldnt be banned for three simple reasons, which i will expand on later: snivy is weak to common mons without forcing them, lacks immediate power and opportunities to hit the field and sweep.

on weakness to common pokemon

i do think snivys typing hinders it too much, both offensively and defensively. leaf storm alone is not the best move, and it leaves it checked by common mons like stunky, vullaby and foongus, while also missing the mark vs more specific ones like tera steels/dragons, gastly or koffing.
in this lcwc iv week 5 replay we can see ikaishi being unable to break fcs team, even with arguably the perfect snivy set for the matchup, because snivy just cant get past koffing, coupled with vullaby. in my own replay from that same tour and week we can also see my snivy not being able to sweep eterns team, because of just how common it is to stack grass resistances.
this is mainly a problem for the scarf set however, i am aware of the fact that evio snivy is different. more on the next point

on lacking immediate power and evio vs scarf

leaf storm is a powerful move, no one can deny that. nonetheless, snivy does have a kind of hard time getting going, both scarf and evio, for different reasons.
it is true that hard counterplay of evio vs scarf snivy tends to be different (foongus will always wall scarf snivy while just force a tera on evio, while scarf dog will always beat evio snivy but lose to scarf). however, there are lots of soft checks to both, like vull, stunky, koffing, gastly and defensive teras, working on different degrees of effectiveness of course. scarf and evio snivy arent completely different pokemon, they both just wont break past koffing, or will always lose to scarf gastly. they have shared checks, even if they dont share counters (and even if tera also exarcebates this issue sometimes, other times it might be useless and never clicked). also, kind of a sidenote, but lets not act like paralyzing vull or stunky just nullifies them. snivy still wont get past those 75% of the time lol
expanding on specifically the lack of power point, what im saying is snivy often has to hit the field specifically vs supereffective targets, as otherwise it risks missing a ko and dying itself/getting knocked off/paralyzed. again, fcs game, is a very good example of this, as the only time his snivy gets a chance at hitting the field is vs a neutral mon, thus not koing and dying for it.

on lack of opportunities

grass is a good defensive typing. snivy is supposed to be able to check mons like mudbray and voltorb, and use them as gateways to fire off leaf storms and get it going. however, it lacks some qualities i think it should have to be too much for the tier to handle. i think snivy has a slight hard time switching in at any given game. basically, the scarf set lacks bulk and longevity, while the evio set lacks speed. even if snivy does resist ground, good luck switching scarf snivy into mudbray. pretty much, it always has to come in on a uturn, which does limit its presence on the field a lot. whats more, evio snivy, while able to switch into mudbray, does lack the immediate speed to be able to switch into pretty much anything else. if you uturn into knocked foo/scarf growlithe, scarf hits the field, but evio doesnt. in a tier as fast paced as this one, i do think thats limiting enough to balance this pokemon. yes, you get to paralyze stuff once you hit the field for later in the game, but clicking glare is already a risk when the opposing pokemon can just stay in and hit you.
i think its a viable strategy to build teams without a dedicated snivy answer like foongus, just with mons that will never let it hit the field. this lcwc game perfectly exemplifies that line of play, as greedys snivy was never able to hit the field safely, and when it did enter it had to run away in fear. my game also shows this pretty effectively, as i was pretty much never in a position to send my snivy out, and when i did it just knocked a mienfoo off. etern played in a way where he almost never let me go snivy, even against trapinch, and when i did it just killed a 24% snubbull and had to switch out

to sum it up, snivy is a pokemon that, regardless of its set, has a hard time hitting the field, and when it does it doesnt mean the games over at all. this game for lcwc iv w5 i think perfectly sums everything ive said up: damiens snivy can only switch in against daunts mudbray once, and even if it does force a defensive tera, daunt is able to stop it without having a hard counter to it, just with defensive plays and outspeeding it after.
with all of this said, in my opinion, snivy shouldnt be banned from sv lc at this point in time

 

[wesh papillon]

I am unsure how to phrase this, as too me snivy has been a pokemon I found laughably overtuned for quite a while

leaf storm alone is not the best move, and it leaves it checked by common mons like stunky, vullaby and foongus, while also missing the mark vs more specific ones like tera steels/dragons, gastly or koffing

This seems like a fair point, but ur kinda ignoring some the main points of snivy: mainly its synergy with basically anything offensive, like meinfoo or vullaby. Knocking stuff off, pressuring poison and steel, u-turn into snivy vs more aggro teams, these pokemon enable snivy so well. Pokemon like koffing usually are tasked iwht doing other shit so they Get knocked and shit and just dont really get to live long enough to completely block a snivy. This is an issue with vullaby and stinky mainly, as they often get worn down over the course of a game to where, even tho they can switch in on snivy mid game, in the late game they fold.

U see, snivy is this role hybrid demon that u dont see often, its a sweeper AND a breaker, dude can bypass a lot of his own checks with the following line ( SPL player insider info here btw) (this flowchart is for scarf btw)

1. you set up rocks
2. you use the very common mienfoo to u-turn into ur snivy
3. you click leaf storm, and lets just assume u hit a stunky
4. "oh no, it doesn't 2hko!" u switch out
5. fuck around or wtv idrc (if ur a god gamer, just find a way to get like minimal chip on vull, litteraly 3 damage or more)
6. get snivy back in with the same method as earlier
7. leaf storm into the stinky again, now its a 2hko
8. win the game, ur a +4 snivy wtf is stopping you
9. if anything goes wrong, just tera!

Opponent has a foongus? ok well ur using MY TEAM with goth, sorry get a more reliable check hahaha

Again, snivy is really fucking easy to build with, think of a pokemon that is kinda offensive and viable. That pokemon synergizes well snivy.


Again, breaker snivy can pass its own checks with help off other pokemon, and sweeper snivy can easily 1hko any non resist at +2/4/6. Making it so it transitions from one role to the other without a hitch. And remember: you cant sac a pokemon to reposition, or stay in as sets up, due to it setting up with a 130 power move.

"oh but what about gastly"

scenario 1, lo gast: oops! you just die to +2 leaf storm
scenario 2, scarf gast: wow good job, u sac a pokemon to get this in, im sure this is a great position tho. At least until snivy tera's.... oops! better luck next time.
scenario3, evio gast: u cant hard switch this guy in ofc, that would be too easy, so you still have to sac a pokemon, at least you dont die to to +2 storm, its a good thing this set doesnt run into the EXACT SAME PROBLEM AS THE OTHER SET HHAHAHAHAHAH oops snivy tera'd too bad to sad.

As the snivy player I dont even have to guess ur set! tera covers all 3 options! You as the gastly however, have to guess 1. if I tera 2. my set 3. if I switch out as scarf 4. what my tera even is in the first place.

Oh sure u can "outplay", but its not reliable lol

Now ofc this is just 1 set! I havent played much evio myself but darn it's also really fucking good and it bypasses foongus and vull without needing to use goth and It also can paralyse all ur guys! how fun!

Now this is all theory ofc, but how does it look in practice? Well, some ppl like Eric have games they think "disprove" snivy being broken.
Now ofc im way too lazy to look at the replay thread in lcwc to manually find sv games that prove my point, but I can look at snivy "worst" games and find my own conclusions about these games! so lets do that

ok so, if I read Eric's post right, we're watching this game from ikaishi pov, so I will roll with that. Fc has a koffing AND a vull AND a snivy (yes, snivy is prob the best answer to itself lol). Surely he wouldnt even be close to losing to a snivy right?

oh! well what a surprise! with meifnoo and snivy, ikaishi was able to wear down koffing!

Let's be clear here, ANY OTHER TERA ON EITHER OPPONENT, and snivy is a couple speed ties (woo fun) away from a win. This isnt a snivy flop moment. Even AT WORST, snivy got rid of mienfoos check and traded Teras. This was 1 very small change away from a broken snivy moment

Another game this time, again a scarf snivy AND a vull AND a stunky, surely...

ok so it comes here and kinda just picks a kill right?

ok well it heavily chips mienfoo, I mean thats great when ur using 2 steel types...

ok well, u could tera here, if ur tera resists ghosts ( it prob doesnt) anyways u cant risk switch or making a fancy predict here as gastly, so u just bring in pawn

well its a good thing the mienfoo wasnt chipped by snivy... oh wait lol

Even u can argue eternally fucked up (he did), my point is still that snivy + other pokemon is really fuckin tough to handle. U can add pawniard to the list of offensive poekmon that combo well with snivy btw.

he still wins lol

u prob get the point by now, here it lures out tera, and yes, greedy eb still wins lol.

This one is the only one where snivy flopped, Damien got greedy early and got called out by a tera. At +0 vs full health evio opponents, this can in fact happen, and is a genuine weakness of the pokemon, but imo this isnt enough to balance it out.

To recap:

At worst, snivy can break down the common checks with the multiple pokemon it can pair with. At best it cleans ur team lol

Actual snivy counterplay:

Tera steel vs snivy with low special attack, this is the most common way to check scarf, gl with evio tho lol

Zebra: lol

snow: lol

Fuecoco: lol +ur trapped

snivy: yeah snivy is the best snivy answer, not trapped, can heal, isnt passive, can paralyse other snivy. I mean the whole package really

dodge leaf storm: yeah…

TLDR: Even when ppl HEAVILY prep for snivy, it still isnt a liability, its a solid breaker a worst and a crazy cleaner at best

 

[Colin]

I've soured on Snivy recently; its broken. Although it has many checks, its also too easy to support with many of the options that Papillon has listed. therefore, you often need 3 Pokemon that you expect to use to switch into Snivy, because Snivy can break for itself and they're generally needed to do other things in battle. Against Eviolite sets, there is a lot of speed control you can use against it, but you also have to switch into it and it can glare Stunky and Gastly. its easy to pivot into, and can also enter on Pokemon such as Mudbray to exploit the turn given when it usually sets rocks. Vs slower switch ins, Tera is especially potent, as it can either take a kill with it or put up a sub vs a Foongus with defensive tera. Some teras, such as flying, can do some of both allowing it to be threatening and get entry if it is ever forced out. Its too dependable at breaking for how dangerous it is endgame and how good the pivots are in this tier.

2 other things I think that should be mentioned is that Snivy is one of the best Pokemon when both sides trade Stealth Rock. Vullaby can no longer be used as an effective switch in, and speed control and defensive options are generally more pressured by rocks than Snivy is, and in Hisuian Growlithe's case is rocks weak. Snivy doesn't like stealth rock, but it can opt to run synthesis to give it some longevity and it is able to exploit many of the stealth rockers. Another thing that needs accounted for in the builder is that Scarf Snivy has tera versatility. Grass is the most immediately dangerous and can snowball quickly, but other teras can be used to be resistant to priority from Pokemon such as Trapinch. It is heavily reliant on trapping and is very boom or bust, but its counterplay in the builder is very different than Eviolite Snivy.

 

[ChangoLoco]

I think tera should only be to enhance a pokemon, not something that said pokemon must rely on inorder to counter others.With that in mind I think snivy should be banned, the only thing I can add that hasn't already been said is that when you have scarf snivy, your win condition becomes removing snivy's counters. This leads into what wesh papillon already said, as long as you bring pokemon that can beat snivy's counters, snivy is good. If your opponent brings vullaby as a snivy counter then you just bring snubbull, if they bring trapinch then you tera, if they bring stunky then you bring mudbray, etc. . Every snivy counter has its own counter and every time you bring snivy out you force a switch into that counter. And once all those counters have dead including tera, snivy can rip through rest of the team.
Excuse my grammar please
Edit: Also if you tera, you are likely making yourself weak to another pokemon being brought, so not the best.

 

[Kowasabii]

This is the first LC suspect test I have gotten reqs for so I wanna try and contribute to the debate the best I can, as I am now considered an informed voter.To be 100% honest still deciding on what I am going to vote, as I think both sides make valid arguments, but as of right now I am leaning a bit towards don't ban. But the unpredictability in sets is making me consider ban.

I tried several different teams at the start including teamo's reqs team (Im just bad with stunky im srry), and papillions snivy team. But the team that ultimately helped me get reqs was Mashrock's LC world cup team with spikes glimmet. The team that I was using had foongus, vullaby, and tera fire voltorb so snivy didnt feel like much of a problem for the most part. So I completely understand that the team I was using probably affected my opinion and bias, and that there are limitations on team building from snivy, as you need a check and the checks are a bit limited.

Opponent has a foongus? ok well ur using MY TEAM with goth, sorry get a more reliable check hahaha

I think this argument is good on paper but one thing that is important to consider is opportunity cost. I tried using your team, and I understand it is very possible that I just wasn't opperating the team correctly, but it felt a bit hard to use. Although gothita trapped foongus very effectively, the opportunity cost was there were a lot of matchups where I felt like I was missing some defensive counterplay. Growlithe-hisui, gastly, and HO teams felt like that were able to wear down my team before I really had a chance to snowball with snivy. I also had one game that came down to me losing because I missed leaf storm (I only needed to hit 2 and I missed one of them).\

(Not trying to just pick apart a certain point in the argument, I think you make tons of valid points this is just one I disagree with.)

What is making me consider ban is the unpredicatability of sets. Scarf and eviolite with tera fire felt as the most threatening sets to me, and although both have counterplay, the things that can check each set are very different. Sometimes it felt like I needed to sacrifice a mon in order to figure out what they were running. So snivy here kinda feels like BDSP manaphy where it isnt necessarily running through your whole team from the get go, but it can get at least a kill every game pretty easily which is why it could be considered ban worthy.

Also stellar tera is a bad tera type for snivy imo, although you get the unresisted 80 BP move that boosts special attack, it feels too slow in LC to snowball effectively, although it can in certain situations.

 

[ChangoLoco]

So snivy here kinda feels like BDSP manaphy where it isnt necessarily running through your whole team from the get go, but it can get at least a kill every game pretty easily which is why it could be considered ban worthy.

I don't know about you but to me snivy should be banned because of how stupidly easy it is to use. Where as most "strong" pokemon need specific places to come in or have checks that are very good, snivy can be brought in at the start, when a chinchou comes out, when basically anything but the following pokemon are out . And once it gets a kill it gets the ball rolling potentially even inflicting mass damage on one of its "checks".

 

[westSasori]

I vote for banning snivy, the reason is simple, whoever should stop snivy can't stop it, foongus which was the most efficient way, is completely nullified by tera steel subs, and even if snivy is scarf it is necessary to enter it with frequently with foongus he will end up being paralyzed and without an item, and at the end of the game snivy will sweep the entire team, during the suspect snivy defeated my 6 mon this way, defeating mienfoo tera steel max hp after having used leaf storm 3 times,
+6 236 SpA Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Tera Steel Mienfoo: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I needed to recover mienfoo with the regenerator, but even with full hp it doesn't resist, at the end of the game when all the mons are vulnerable, snivy is unstoppable, stunky is a way of threatening snivy but that's not a big problem if we use trapinch + snivy, honestly trapinch isn't even necessary, just a team that can destroy the opponent and end up forcing him to leave the stunky low hp, for example if we use snivy + gastly, how will the stunky deal with gastly and snivy simultaneously? simply with combinations and help from the team itself, the snivy becomes a huge threat, being scarf or eviolite, the worst of all is that we need to guess what it is, for example if I put foongus deducing that the snivy is scarf and hit it with sludge bomb, I can simply lose to tera steel subs, or at least lose 2 to 3 Pokémon at that moment, I'm only mentioning a few cases due to lack of time, but several arguments have already been covered in this same post.