Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[LoDart210]

No, it makes the process of making a team easier, idk why you've made that up

It's a modification. Do you know what that word means? The simulator is not an emulator of the current version of the game. It includes tools not available to players of the cartridge version. Just because the degree of modification isn't as drastic as something a sleep clause does not disqualify it from being considered a modification.

It's a change to the game that fundamentally alters how you interact with the game in a way that the cartridge game can't hope to match.

Sleep Clause: prevents sleep abuse

Teambuilder: avoids mandatory gameplay to achieve a result

What exactly am I making up, the definition of "modification", or what the teambuilder does, or what is or isn't possible on cartridge?

 

[pika pal]

It's a modification. Do you know what that word means? The simulator is not an emulator of the current version of the game. It includes tools not available to players of the cartridge version. Just because the degree of modification isn't as drastic as something a sleep clause does not disqualify it from being considered a modification.

It's a change to the game that fundamentally alters how you interact with the game in a way that the cartridge game can't hope to match.

Sleep Clause: prevents sleep abuse

Teambuilder: avoids mandatory gameplay to achieve a result

What exactly am I making up, the definition of "modification", or what the teambuilder does, or what is or isn't possible on cartridge?

What tools does the simulator offer that are not available on Cart nor possible to replicate through what Cartridge does make available? The Teambuilder is incomparable because all Pokemon it allows into OU are things you could legally put together on a copy of SV, just cutting out the busywork to reach the same result as I mentioned in my previous reply.

 

[Anchor9]

What tools does the simulator offer that are not available on Cart nor possible to replicate through what Cartridge does make available? The Teambuilder is incomparable because all Pokemon it allows into OU are things you could legally put together on a copy of SV, just cutting out the busywork to reach the same result as I mentioned in my previous reply.

I think the point LoDart is trying to make is that it still modifies something to an extent, even if it doesn’t effect the actual battle, hence making it not cartridge accurate.

 

[Bakugames]

Showdown is a battle simulator, not a pokémon game simulator. It gives you all the tools you'd have in the game itself and its main goal is to replicate all stats, moves, and game mechanics as accurately as possible, where everything achieved by it can be achieved in game. This is just bad faith argument, because then you're saying that unless we emulate the entire process of a game, there's no value in being cart accurate lol

 

[spookysocialist]

Clearly the simulator lacks the sense of pride and accomplishment that comes from wasting hours of your life playing a 2/10 game to grind mons for your team.

P.S. you can get mons in game almost as fast as showdown with pkhax anyway

 

[Ibaragi]

go play BSS which is, I've heard before at least, the actual thing game freak balances around. Like if you're getting this heated about a decision that had most good players and many midlevel players agreeing with it, like just step away.

Gamefreak only care about VGC and BSS from a balance perspective, but also won't "fix" problems within them with bans or checks, instead letting the broken run wild until they nerf/dexit them... the next game.
BSS is included because it's one of the most popular game modes in Japan, though, which is still pokemon's main market and home and is the reason why there's still some semblance of balance in singles formats. Also the reason why things like Supreme Overlord and Last Respects exist: they mess up with 6v6 singles, but BSS is a 3v3 singles format.



As for the other guy that came out of nowhere with a high-and-mighty attitude, telling people to get logic classes and implicitly insulting the intelligence and integrity of every single person that wished Sleep gone, I don't think they deserve a reply and don't recommend engaging. Reason being, all those arguments were due before the ban. We had discussion threads open for most of this month, around 2 weeks of open discussion. And after heated up debate spanning over 3 threads, we ended up with dozens of comments of people sick of the discussion going circles, saying it had been talked enough.
And NOW, after the fact, people appear out of nowhere to throw walls of text on why it shouldn't have been done so? No. You had your time, you chose to not participate and stay silent, you missed your chance, now you face the silence.
EDIT: actually, just realized after writing that I didn't check if they didn't participate; my apologies if I was wrong. The message stays for people that match the above conditions, though.

People that participated on the discussion complaining about the result is understandable, but this is ridiculous.

 

[Blue glass]

Are we really going to back to banning pokémon is against cart accuracy arguments?

 

[gregdawiz]

And NOW, after the fact, people appear out of nowhere to throw walls of text on why it shouldn't have been done so? No. You had your time, you chose to not participate and stay silent, you missed your chance, now you face the silence.
EDIT: actually, just realized after writing that I didn't check if they didn't participate; my apologies if I was wrong. The message stays for people that match the above conditions, though.

People that participated on the discussion complaining about the result is understandable, but this is ridiculous.

I really feel like these discussions are poorly advertised. I only heard it was going on because someone covered it in a video. Its very possible you actively play the meta but never saw this discussion before the ban just dropped. Either way saying ppl cant make arguments after the fact just shuts down conversation for no reason. People should be allowed to say how they feel about a decision, regardless if they participated in the discussion beforehand.

 

[Welcome to mars]

My favourite part about agent cobalion is how often it has a crappy set that happens to fold a top threat and sometimes a future ubers candidate,
like it can almost always be molded into a set that happens to check a top tier pokemon

The funny cheese man is the reason i worded it like, cobalion is hopeless against it without tera but seaking can beat zacian crowned with a hyper niche set with tera

 

[Ibaragi]

I really feel like these discussions are poorly advertised. I only heard it was going on because someone covered it in a video. Its very possible you actively play the meta but never saw this discussion before the ban just dropped. Either way saying ppl cant make arguments after the fact just shuts down conversation for no reason. People should be allowed to say how they feel about a decision, regardless if they participated in the discussion beforehand.

people like you, that participated in the discussion and are showing dislike over the result, or even people that as you say, didn't participate because they didn't know and are just showing disconfort, I have no problem with. I find it perfectly understandable and fine.

My comment was directed more towards the people that are actively trying to re-enact the whole discussion, often insulting parts of the player base and the council in the process, yet were no where to be seen during the dicussion. Even if I accept the "not properly announced" argument, which is arguable, it doesn't justify the attitude of some people, nor reviving a topic that people were already sick of by the end of it.

 

[Baloor]

To keep it simple: separate tournament and community wide banlists. Because this is an unofficial simulator based on community engagement, then the only consistent rule is community rule. If the community wants to ban something, there can be surveys and suspects, and if tournament players and organizers want rules for tournaments based on tournament player opinion, then let them do that within tournament.

Tournament players taking away mons and tools from general players because of tournaments is silly.

why though?

this site was created to make a alternative COMPETITIVE pokemon community based on 6v6 singles. the core of the site has always been its tournaments. separating the playerbases just doesnt make sense since casual playing doesn't actually exist on the site. you can argue it does but at its core smogon is to make a alternative competitive ruleset to that of vgc, casual playing here boils down to not actually trying or just people who are not very good. When trying to balance a competitive game you rarely ever cater to those individuals for well obvious reasons. Its not like smogon actually can create new aspects of pokemon either, we are just working with what we got. Compared to other games where you can just make new items or playlists to cater to people who don't try. Smogon is sorta like a game that only has ranked with limited resources due to being effected by what another company adds to their game.

 

[senorlopez]

And NOW, after the fact, people appear out of nowhere to throw walls of text on why it shouldn't have been done so? No. You had your time, you chose to not participate and stay silent, you missed your chance, now you face the silence.
EDIT: actually, just realized after writing that I didn't check if they didn't participate; my apologies if I was wrong. The message stays for people that match the above conditions, though.

"Why didn't people make their voices heard before?"

Insular echo chamber forum:

 

[Welcome to mars]

the average member of the dragon dance kyurem community when they wake up on the 22nd of January 2024 and kingambit hasn’t been forcefully removed from the overused metagame after the dlc 1 incident (they can’t fall back to sleep)

Why didn't people make their voices heard before?

Insular echo chamber forum:
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its just an emoji

 

[senorlopez]

why though?

this site was created to make a alternative COMPETITIVE pokemon community based on 6v6 singles. the core of the site has always been its tournaments. separating the playerbases just doesnt make sense since casual playing doesn't actually exist on the site. you can argue it does but at its core smogon is to make a alternative competitive ruleset to that of vgc, casual playing here boils down to not actually trying or just people who are not very good. When trying to balance a competitive game you rarely ever cater to those individuals for well obvious reasons. Its not like smogon actually can create new aspects of pokemon either, we are just working with what we got. Compared to other games where you can just make new items or playlists to cater to people who don't try. Smogon is sorta like a game that only has ranked with limited resources due to being effected by what another company adds to their game.

I agree with the majority of your post but saying "the core of the site has always been its tournaments" is wild and frankly disrespectful to the majority of users on this website.

 

[arnimacarni]

re: the topic

I just want to say that I disagree with the specifics, I don't think sleep was inherently broken and it was balanced with most mons, I would have subjected the issue to suspect testing, I disagree with Finch's reasoning for why it was not suspect tested, I believe that the council should have had some more hindsight seeing how the Volcarona situation escalated and that I hope that this decision is reverted at some point... and even then, I admire Finch and the council for having the cojones to go in front of y'all, announce something unpopular, having to deal with hatred and vitriol from so many users, here and in socials, and standing their ground while bombarded by mindblowingly stupid comments. This is a fucking game, and opinions are like butts, we all have one and they're mostly shitty. These guys are in the council bc they know a thing or two more than the general public, I trust them with their decision making even if I personally disagree with them and we need to see how this plays out. So many people advocate for creating parallel ladders when an issue is sensitive, and now that we get the chance to try OU out without sleep, in a decision that can very well be reverted at any time, a lot of you are up in arms. Shame on you. Be better. Let's talk metagame discussion, not bureaucracy or process. I appreciate us a lot, and know that there's passion behind every post, but please learn when to stop.

In other news, fuck Kyurem. That's all for me.

 

[HallowedHarlequin]

With the Sleep ban this tier is going towards being BW OU 2: Paldean Bungaloo...
We only need Complex ban like "X mon cannot use Booster Energy" or "Kingambit can't run Supreme Overlord" or " Can't use tera and a setup move in the same set" to reach peak Gen V OU tiering bs..

Isn't that the exact opposite direction it's going in? The rule is now "Moves that inflict sleep if they connect are banned." That seems much less bs than the previous "Sleep moves are allowed, but if you've already landed one and the pokemon you landed it on is still asleep, you can keep using them but a unique simulator-only bit of code will activate that will arbitrarily force them to fail." Showdown has just gotten rid of one of the most complex bans in Pokemon history.

 

[Baloor]

I agree with the majority of your post but saying "the core of the site has always been its tournaments" is wild and frankly disrespectful to the majority of users on this website.

It’s not though because that’s partially why the site was created. There is nothing stopping you from joining OST, OU ssnl, or anything of the sort. There is plenty of entry level tournaments that you can play in with no experience. There is no nepotism stopping anybody from playing these. Obviously, nobody is forced to play these but tournaments have always been a big part of Smogons identity.

 

[Welcome to mars]

does kyurem really think hes finally defeated the RUBL allegations? You never counter latias no matter what

draining kiss not hit as hard as aura sphere but we need as much healing as we can get, so just this time

 

[senorlopez]

It’s not though because that’s partially why the site was created. There is nothing stopping you from joining OST, OU ssnl, ot anything of the sort. There is plenty of entry level tournaments that you can play in with no experience. There is no nepotism stopping anybody from playing these.

I agree that these tournaments exist but my point is more so that applying tiering on the principle of the most competitive tournaments / players has trickle down effects on the more casual player base which is the vast majority - this isn't even discussing how the sleep decision impacts the lower tiers of this generation when Darkrai could have just been suspected instead without impacting any other tier. I understand and don't even disagree with why this happens, but suspecting sleep without even bringing up Darkrai on the survey is a bit of an FU to those playerbases.

 

[Shinto7654]

Why didn't people make their voices heard before?

Insular echo chamber forum:
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Coming from the person that specifcally made multiple posts with memes mocking other people, whining about getting laugh emoji reactions is super pathetic, but also funny hypocrisy lol

 

[senorlopez]

Coming from the person that specifcally made multiple posts with memes mocking other people, whining about getting laugh emoji reactions is super pathetic, but also funny hypocrisy lol

I've already addressed the fact those memes were only created because no one gave my serious posts the time of day. Without those memes, discussion with senior members wouldn't have been generated - again this speaks more to the anti sleep brigade that they would rather engage with memes than "serious" posts.

I don't know how you equate what I wrote to me whining - I'll happily take hahas if I can represent a voice to some people who don't post here.

 

[Baloor]

I agree that these tournaments exist but my point is more so that applying tiering on the principle of the most competitive tournaments / players has trickle down effects on the more casual player base which is the vast majority - this isn't even discussing how the sleep decision impacts the lower tiers of this generation when Darkrai could have just been suspected instead without impacting any other tier. I understand and don't even disagree with why this happens, but suspecting sleep without even bringing up Darkrai on the survey is a bit of an FU to those playerbases.

I personally advocated for a Darkrai ban opposed to sleep but fact of the matter is there was two threads open for public discussion as well as a discussion about he sleep clause itself. All the threads were pretty positively In Favor for deleting sleep clause all together. There was nothing stopping a regular Joe from voicing their opinion there. Sleep in general scored high on the survey. There was no suspect because removing sleep clause isn’t a community suspect decision, all the sleep moves were promptly banned as they are broken lol (see when Abr removed sleep clause in gen8). There was plenty of discussion accessible to the general community but people only now complain about tournament favoriting etc… it really doesn’t make sense to me, where was all of this before? Nobody is trying say fuck you to any part of the community, the previous discussions and community surveying were all heavily in favor of this decision. Unrestricted sleep frankly has no place in the format and the community wanted the clause gone opposed to a darkrai ban.

not to mention that a good handful of the people who started the removing sleep clause and banning sleep movement weren’t really recognizeable current tournament players to begin with.

 

[Rootb]

I really feel like these discussions are poorly advertised. I only heard it was going on because someone covered it in a video. Its very possible you actively play the meta but never saw this discussion before the ban just dropped. Either way saying ppl cant make arguments after the fact just shuts down conversation for no reason. People should be allowed to say how they feel about a decision, regardless if they participated in the discussion beforehand.

The one thing I think they could have done better was to tag this thread with [NEW VIEWS FROM THE COUNCIL] or [NEW POLICY REVIEW THREAD].

There really was a ton of discussion, and it lasted longer than a suspect test normally would.. but if you aren't clicking into the OU forum on a daily basis, you might have missed the initial surge. Putting the PR post in the council thread was a great idea, but it's increasingly apparent that many people only really interact with the OU forum via clicking directly into this thread.

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

The idea that the decision to ban sleep moves is "dictatorial" or "undemocratic" in comparison to maintaining the status quo is ridiculous. There has not been any demonstration of popular assent for instituting Sleep Clause in current gen Smogon tiers in the past decade or so. It's simply re-added at the start of each gen because people got used to it, despite the fact that mods (and in-battle clauses comparable in scope to mods) should require more scrutiny than any other decision. Insisting that banning sleep moves without a suspect test is "dictatorial" would be unfair, as that standard has never been applied to adding Sleep Clause to Gen 9 in the first place. The results of the recent poll loosely demonstrate overall support for the banning of Sleep moves, which has provided more evidence for overall approval of the decision than there has been for overall disapproval of the decision, so it is unfair to refer to it as an "undemocratic" decision.

Although there are reasons to weigh player enjoyment over cart accuracy, ideally a mod should have not just majority support, but supermajority support to justify its presence. Based on poll results (and the ratio of positive to negative reactions on the announcement post), there is sufficient evidence to say that Sleep Clause does not have supermajority support (or even 50% majority support) anymore. There may be other mods/complicated clauses out there, but none of them have faced the same amount of pushback as Sleep Clause. A suspect test would require a supermajority to demonstrate disapproval to remove Sleep Clause. There are arguments to be made on the drawbacks of banning sleep moves, but arguments on the grounds of the decision being "dictatorial" or "undemocratic" aren't really justifiable.

Also, the SM OU council fully banning Baton Pass instead of maintaining or trying to amend the complex ban had far greater effects and nobody called them dictators over that.

 

[Shinto7654]

I've already addressed the fact those memes were only created because no one gave my serious posts the time of day. Without those memes, discussion with senior members wouldn't have been generated - again this speaks more to the anti sleep brigade that they would rather engage with memes than "serious" posts.

If you seriously think you making memes insulting and targetting specific people somehow was the reason senior members started talking, then I don't think anything will get through to you and that massive, but intensely fragile at the same time ego. You know, there's probably a reason why stuff you say gets laughing emoji reacts lol