Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

I'm just gonna say if someone feels serp should be banned I feel bad for them shit's mediocre as hell and not even that fast for this meta. No immediate power, frail/trash defensive monotyping, trash coverage unless/even if you burn tera which is huge opportunity cost, even leaf storm PP can be an issue. It's annoying with glare/sub etc sure but It's far from amazing let alone broken. Web boost is a gimmick against a gimmick and more neat/fun than relevant to its viability. I'm not saying it's B-C tier or anything just overrated.

I'm interested to see what the survey results for kokoloko are but I'd be shocked if many people are in favour of it, ironically general sentiment seems to be that this meta in the best SV OU has had so the kokoloko shit was kind of out of nowhere. The people who have lists of 10+ mons they think should be banned are delusional, people were listing shit like iron boulder, archaludon and serp as potential suspects.
yeah, serp is strong but i've never had trouble with it. its biggest issue is that for any of its even remotely relevant tera types, it still gets walled by dragon or flying or steel or something, so it's very likely you'll have something that can tank a couple hits from serp no matter what tera type it has

now, i know a million people are rushing to their keyboards to mention how i forgot the unwallable boost-giving nightmare monstrosity that is stellar tera blast, but i'll be honest, i genuinely think that stellar serp is a noobtrap. sure, it's not resisted by anything, but the power is still lackluster and serp doesn't get to change its defensive matchups at all, making it very revengeable. do not use stellar serperior
 
yeah, serp is strong but i've never had trouble with it. its biggest issue is that for any of its even remotely relevant tera types, it still gets walled by dragon or flying or steel or something, so it's very likely you'll have something that can tank a couple hits from serp no matter what tera type it has

now, i know a million people are rushing to their keyboards to mention how i forgot the unwallable boost-giving nightmare monstrosity that is stellar tera blast, but i'll be honest, i genuinely think that stellar serp is a noobtrap. sure, it's not resisted by anything, but the power is still lackluster and serp doesn't get to change its defensive matchups at all, making it very revengeable. do not use stellar serperior
serp is definitely mid imo
 
tis one last day until the new year, and the one last day before the tier shifts, lets do something funny before its too late
IMG_2306.jpeg


and just a reminder that the funny snake was the first pokemon to be have its ban called for by a user, not terapagos, not enamorus, not kingambit and not even gholdenbalanced, but a viable grass snek
 
You should only be using Tera stellar enam as a revenge killer rarely but mostly as a cleaner with Tera stellar. That role means you pretty much have to run scarf.
Thank you for the advice!
All the talk about "kokoloko", literally quick banning 10-15 mons (half the tier) makes me think certain members of this community should just quit OU and play UU. Do people expect the power level of every tier to stay the same every generation?
Yeah, power creep exists, they just have to learn to deal with it, like, bro, you came to play OU, no one forced you too. I think that Ghold needs some discussion, and possibly Roaring Moon, but otherwise, the tier feels stronger, but more balanced. Besides, seeing Charizard in ZU would be funny I think.
 
How far down does Feraligatr drop? I can't imagine it sticks around in OU, since other mons just do the same thing but better. Does this guy have any preferred teammates? I'm not any good at team building but I imagine you just slot it in on a Screens/Veil team as generic DD user and hope for the best.
 
have you considered slotting in raging fury on gouging fire? it's got the disadvantage of trapping you, but if your opponent doesn't have an immediate offensive answer to gouging it straight-up doesn't matter, and no recoil gives you a lot more longevity than flare blitz. probably works best against stall teams because they literally have zero answers against sun band gouging besides "wait for it to die from recoil". maybe slot it in over heat crash? i dunno.
proof of concept:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023944757-puxdu8kep78ebpbhu5b2pe04sh3ze5bpw
you can literally just lead tork against stall, switch gouging in, tera fire, click raging fury and win

(also this team singlehandedly took me from a 1400s slump to the mid-1600s in a matter of hours, you gotta try triple choice dinos)

(and if you're wondering, raging bolt is called "open the door" and walking wake is called "walk the dinosaur")
 
Question, is their a thread where we can Theorymon buffs to Pokemon an stuff like that? If so, please add a link to it. Also, finalized team for now caintains AV Archaludon, BU Ceruledge, BU Quaquaval, CB Meowscarada, CM Hatterene, and CM Raikou.
 
proof of concept:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023944757-puxdu8kep78ebpbhu5b2pe04sh3ze5bpw
you can literally just lead tork against stall, switch gouging in, tera fire, click raging fury and win

(also this team singlehandedly took me from a 1400s slump to the mid-1600s in a matter of hours, you gotta try triple choice dinos)

(and if you're wondering, raging bolt is called "open the door" and walking wake is called "walk the dinosaur")
Jesus Christ that is ludicrous damage. 68 percent or so on Alomomola? I knew Sun was rediculous, now I have to use this team but make my own changes.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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when i called it "physical chi-yu" i wasn't exaggerating, this banana-hat motherfucker hits so hard it makes dracovish jealous
I messed around with the same team and got matched up vs a Sand team. I expected to need to work a little harder, and then Specs Rbolt one shots a fucking Excadrill. The replay speaks for itself.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023974049-0bxnyfphlin6i2c2abmzu6e1av7a2u9pw

The team might be a little awkward vs HO even with Gambit/Rbolt, but it has alot of great matchups. What a way to end the new year.
 
How far down does Feraligatr drop? I can't imagine it sticks around in OU, since other mons just do the same thing but better. Does this guy have any preferred teammates? I'm not any good at team building but I imagine you just slot it in on a Screens/Veil team as generic DD user and hope for the best.
He's going to at least RU. I don't know any notable buffs he got, and as far as offensive Water-types he's outclassed in UU. Even RU has Basculegion for competition, as well as Quagsire/Slowbro who are generally hostile to him. It's not looking too good for the gatr
 
All the talk about "kokoloko", literally quick banning 10-15 mons (half the tier) makes me think certain members of this community should just quit OU and play UU. Do people expect the power level of every tier to stay the same every generation?
Kokoloko tiering isn’t about countering power creep and this misconception seems way too common.

Kokoloko tiering is about getting a tier to a balanced state as quickly as possible and then reintroducing questionable Pokemon to see if they wildly offset it. It’s intended to maximize the enjoyable period of a meta for players verses entering a long series of suspects where balance is unlikely after each one and suddenly you’ve lost half a generation trying to find a game worth playing.

Granted, it sounds like the player base seems broadly agreed that the meta is relatively balanced right now, so the initial need for Kokoloko doesn’t seem apparent at this stage. The only real reason to consider Kokoloko after that is if people think the current balance of the meta is fragile — that is, if one or two suspect/bans will destabilize the meta and result in a cascade of needed bans.

So if anyone feels like the meta is currently a Jenga tower, then maybe consider Kokoloko. Otherwise, it’s probably not necessary.
 

Nickos

Quack
is a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Meowscarada
Protean Vs. Overgrow


You know, I feel like this discussion is alive once again, mainly because not only is :Meowscarada: very relevant once again, but because now it does have one important coverage move that you'd probably want to have STAB on to properly beat or force out all kinds of threats that Meow was previously unable to, of course, I'm talking about Triple Axel, powerful ice coverage and probably the best (offensive move Meow could have gotten (realistically, so no stuff like Flare Blitz, aside from... Close Combat?)

Previously, Overgrow was considered the superior ability for pivot sets due to the fact that Protean would often leave you with a single STAB the moment you clicked a move due to the big nerf it got this gen, this in turn would mean that you could be forced out by stuff that you'd normally be able to beat easily if you had, say, STAB on your Flower Trick or your Knock Off, besides, it's not like you really needed coverage that much, as the most Protean would do is give you a STAB U-turn, or help you live a hit by removing extra weaknesses, but it is hard to say that this was really worth running.

Now, pretty much everyone is running Protean on their pivot Meows, as Triple Axel essentially becomes its strongest move once it becomes STAB, reaching an impressive 120 BP Vs. Flower Trick's 105 BP (with the built-in critical hit) and it really helps destroying mons that Meow would be unable to KO with its main STABs alone, however, is the extra damage from Protean really that needed?

I'll next post a list of calcs Vs. relevant meta targets, in order to make a proper comparison, and explain which ability is preferable in each situation.

Vs. Physdef :Gliscor:
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 432-516 (122.7 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 288-348 (81.8 - 98.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Poison Heal

As you can see, Triple Axel is guaranteed to OHKO with Protean, no matter what, while non-Protean falls just a little short of the KO. This however, means that unless the opponent's Gliscor is somehow at full health the entire match, it would still be immensely threatened by Meow clicking Triple Axel, as the lack of Roost would make it hard for it to realistically be over 80% health at all times for it to have a chance to live 3 hits. The worst case scenario would be that Gliscor decides to use Tera Water the turn you click him and Toxic you, if you were to be Protean in this situation, you would be forced to switch out, as you just lost STAB on Flower Trick and Gliscor will take 35.7 - 42.6%, unlike the Overgrow variant that will still deal 53.4 - 63.6% all while still resisting Earthquake due to not losing its Grass typing previously.

While you may tell me: "well, just switch out and come back later", and you'd be right, but what if you can't? What if Meow is one of your last mons standings and you can't beat Gliscor or afford to have it be crippled by it? This is where Overgrow shines over Protean, as it allows you to stay longer on the field and be harder to take advantage of as your STABs always remain unchanged.

Vs. :Raging Bolt:

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Raging Bolt: 384-456 (92.9 - 110.4%) -- approx. 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Raging Bolt: 258-306 (62.4 - 74%) -- approx. 2HKO

Here, the Protean damage is much more noticeable, Triple Axel is almost guaranteed to KO a Raging Bolt from full, while Overgrow is nowhere near close the KO here. Protean is certainly more desirable in the situation that you NEED to kill or force the Raging Bolt out, but let's say, what if you whiff Triple Axel, or you fail the KO by very little?. Assuming a scenario where the Raging Bolt won't be able to click Draco Meteor and take it out without consequences, if you were to be Protean in this situation, you'd be at a severe disadvantage later, as you essentially lost your Electric resistance by getting rid of Grass, which means that you're in position to eat a Thunderclap the next turn if you decide to stay, for comparison:

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 87-103 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 19.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Meowscarada: 175-207 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (to simulate you losing your Grass typing)

In the case that you were Overgrow, as long as you still have over 35% HP left, you would still be in position to force out or kill Bolt than the Protean variant. While the damage difference is really noticeable, unless Bolt hasn't come out a single time in the entire match, it shouldn't be too complex to make it take chip damage beforehand

Vs. :Enamorus:

252 Atk Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 312-372 (107.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You don't really need Protean to KO Enamorus, though one advantage that Protean does have in this interaction is that a STAB Triple Axel would still deal over 80% damage if the enemy panicked and attempted to live the hit by removing Enam's weakness to Ice with Tera Fairy for example, meaning that if she took any kind of chip beforehand (From Stealth Rock for example), it would still be KO'd regardless, though I'm not sure if this Tera typing is still used as much with the whole Tera Stellar Enamorus stuff going on, which doesn't change your base typing so it's irrelevant to discuss it.

Vs. :Serperior:

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 366-438 (125.7 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 246-294 (84.5 - 101%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

It's obvious that a guaranteed OHKO>a very slight chance to OHKO, which to be fair, can be fixed with a single layer of Spikes, which bumps that 6.3% chance up to 81.3%. However, Triple Axel is not exactly the most reliable move, so in the chance that you whiff it, you'd have:

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 196-231 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Meowscarada: 393-463 (134.1 - 158%) -- guaranteed OHKO

An unboosted Leaf Storm does as much damage to a neutral Meowscarada as a +2 one does to Meow that remains Grass. Just for consistency, Overgrow has a better chance against Serp factoring misses there.

The calcs above are just some examples I could think of where you'd be better staying as a Grass-type in the event that Triple Axel misses (it can and will fail you at the worst possible time). As mentioned before, there were endgames where I would have loved to have an Overgrow Meow instead of Protean, for example, that one time a Skeledirge at around 40% health lived a non STAB Knock Off and killed Meow, which was my last mon remaining, let alone those times where a Tusk switches into Meow knowing that a Flower Trick has no chance of killing it if it isn't STAB

Hope you liked reading my yapping, I felt like typing this as I think the debate between what's the better ability is very much alive. Also was just looking to contribute a little, given than :meowscarada: is one of my fav mons to use this gen.
 
I messed around with the same team and got matched up vs a Sand team. I expected to need to work a little harder, and then Specs Rbolt one shots a fucking Excadrill. The replay speaks for itself.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023974049-0bxnyfphlin6i2c2abmzu6e1av7a2u9pw

The team might be a little awkward vs HO even with Gambit/Rbolt, but it has alot of great matchups. What a way to end the new year.
I've played around with the team some more and there are a few optimizations.

1. :Raging Bolt: should be Tera Fairy. This makes opposing dragon matchups much easier.

2. :Great Tusk: can also use a Bulk Up set which can make match-ups vs offense much easier. It won't give as many free turns as the Eject Pack version though.

3. :Torkoal: should run Yawn and/or a more defense-invested set. The original team was just a goofy all-offense attempt.

4. :Kingambit: is still kingambit, but it's really just here as emergency sucker punch. The wallbreaking isn't needed as much. The :Kingambit: slot is better filled by some kind of speed control. I am liking full support :Scream Tail: as the choice here, which can use tons of anti-offense/anti-cheese options.

Scream Tail @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Steel/Water
Speed and Defense
- Encore
- Thunder Wave
- Sunny Day / Misty Explosion
- Trick Room / Disable / Psychic Fangs

Doesn't really matter. Anything that can come in hard on setup and click encore or thunder wave. Trick Room is the funny choice too since it will let your dinos just blow up HO teams. A Chlorophyll pokemon works as well.

https://pokepast.es/a58ee8c27ab48e2e
 
Last edited:
:sv/raging bolt:
Raging Bolt @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Thunderclap/Substitute
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunderbolt
So after that Gouging Fire set I shared where you use Sun to give a Def boost and then get an Atk boost after Sun fades and Dragon Dance I started looking for other Paradox Pokemon that could do something similar (spoiler they only technically can. Most suck at doing so) and came up with this.
Here Raging Thunder has same Def as SpA which means under Sun will get a Def boost. After Calm Mind and Sun fading, it’ll then get a SpA boost. This is also literally just the regular Calm Mind set but with only 30 IVs in SpA, as otherwise you couldn’t get a boost to Def. Since Def is prioritized higher than SpA for Protosynthesis you only need to have Def and SpA to be equal.
 
I was messing with the Dino Sun team and put Skarm and H-Lilli as the last two, H-Lilli is self-explanatory but Skarm was to offset the Ground and Fairy weeknesses of the whole team:

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Iron Head
- Body Press
- Roost

Any optimizations, improvements or alternatives are more than welcome. Also not sold on H-Lilli as the team lacks a strong defensive backbone. Anyway, happy new year to y'all!
 
Speaking of sun teams, if you were going to use a Chlorophyll mon on them do you guys feel that Venusaur is significantly better than the other options or could other options like H-Lilligant have merit?
 
I've played around with the team some more and there are a few optimizations.

1. :Raging Bolt: should be Tera Fairy. This makes opposing dragon matchups much easier.

2. :Great Tusk: can also use a Bulk Up set which can make match-ups vs offense much easier. It won't give as many free turns as the Eject Pack version though.

3. :Torkoal: should run Yawn and/or a more defense-invested set. The original team was just a goofy all-offense attempt.

4. :Kingambit: is still kingambit, but it's really just here as emergency sucker punch. The wallbreaking isn't needed as much. The :Kingambit: slot is better filled by some kind of speed control. I am liking full support :Scream Tail: as the choice here, which can use tons of anti-offense/anti-cheese options.

Scream Tail @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Steel/Water
Speed and Defense
- Encore
- Thunder Wave
- Sunny Day / Misty Explosion
- Trick Room / Disable / Psychic Fangs

Doesn't really matter. Anything that can come in hard on setup and click encore or thunder wave. Trick Room is the funny choice too since it will let your dinos just blow up HO teams. A Chlorophyll pokemon works as well.

https://pokepast.es/a58ee8c27ab48e2e
my scream tail is running 172 hp / 164 def / 172 spe with bold nature and dazzling gleam. this lets you outspeed tusk by 1 point while still getting a proto defense boost in sun and then severely dent it, which is pretty important because the team outside of scream tail has a huge great tusk weakness and that's one of the worst things to have a huge weakness to. i also chose to forgo booster energy for boots since sun's up most of the time anyway
 

658Greninja

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Moderator
2023 is coming to a close. SV OU was a huge mix of emotions throughout the year. To end off with a bang, I want to discuss two EV spreads I’ve been messing with on two of my favorite Pokemon from the generation. What if slow bois were fast?

IMG_2241.png

Fast Dirge (Skeledirge) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off​

The main reason for this spread is to outrun Adamant Gambit and burn it. This spread also outruns opposing Skeledirge to win the 1v1. While the reduced bulk can be detrimental, having that emergency Gambit burn could prevent out of control lategame scenarios if the team lacks a Skarmory or if it gets KO’d.

IMG_2242.png

Fast Apple (Hydrapple) @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Energy Ball
- Earth Power
- Fickle Beam/Dragon Breath​

Hydrapple is a really cool addition on Balance. Being a wallbreaker that also has fantastic bulk and Regenerator. Characteristics that are difficult to find for Balance teams. It could also Tera Fairy to flip the matchup against Ice types and opposing Dragons. With 132 speed, you outrun Clef, and everything speed creeping it. Even without any SpA investment, you 2HKO standard Clef with Eball and 2HKO max SpD Gking with EP.

+2 0 SpA Hydrapple Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Clefable: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What is cool about Hydrapple is it has enough bulk 1v1 a majority of fat mons.

0 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Hydrapple: 254-300 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Hydrapple: 236-282 (56.8 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even with minimal Def investment, it straight up tanks most physical hits.

252+ Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hydrapple: 153-181 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hydrapple: 268-316 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Hydrapple: 343-405 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hydrapple: 288-339 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Hydrapple: 351-414 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


and with Tera, that list expands even further to mons like Meow, DD Moon, Weavile, Band Pult, etc.

Happy New Years Smogon
 
View attachment 585744
Fast Apple (Hydrapple) @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Energy Ball
- Earth Power
- Fickle Beam/Dragon Breath
are there really any practical applications for running dragon breath? fickle beam has a higher power, the same proc chance, and its secondary effect is to straight-up remove the opponent from the game instead of just breaking their ankles and calling it a day
 
A few more hours and there shall be a new time upon us, ambition for it is very good, but one must also keep a calm mind

IMG_2335.gif

I‘m not funny (Cobalion) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SpA / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon

cobby is already naturally physical bulky and has good defensive typing, hence why this defensive calm mind set invests otherwise, max hp so its special bulk is also solid after repeated calm minds and 144 speed so it can outspeed some pokemon, 112 special attack is to avoid being entirely reliant on boosting stacking to do damage (366 special attack after a single boost!) and so it can do some form of damage when calm mind isn’t an option, protect heals a bit with leftovers but air slash or tera blast can be ran for coverage, the final moves are stabs with a solid pairing, its going to be new years in my country in a few hours so i’ll afk soon, happy new year and be sure to ladder with cobalion!
 
My final post of 2023. SV OU 2023 was fun, it had its highs and lows, it had its bans and drops, but most importantly, the Hidden Treasure of Area Zero, the friends we made along the way.

So here is my favorite set of all year, may we all have a great 2024 of Pokemon Scarlet and Violet OU.

:Skeledirge:
Skeledirge (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 200 HP / 80 SpA / 100 SpD / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Torch Song
- Scorching Sands
- Alluring Voice

"A song that scorches the soul, a burning requiem
for those who were lost, a flickering finale for a
smoldering year"
 
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