NP-Some Kind of Monster: SV ND DOU Suspect Process 3: Mega Metagross

[big pichu]

The latest suspect is upon us. Based on discussion in the community and the council, we've decided to suspect Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross has always been a powerful threat in the National Dex Doubles metagame, but the release of the Indigo Disk gave Mega Metagross access to the extremely powerful Heavy Slam, a move that hits at 120 base power to a sizeable chunk of the metagame due to Mega Metagross' immense weight and is further bolstered by Tough Claws and a colossal 145 Attack stat. Paired with incredible defensive stats and a solid defensive typing, Mega Metagross can be a dangerous threat that's extremely difficult to remove from the game.

Mega Metagross also manages to check several Pokemon that would nominally be a threat to it, such as Flutter Mane, due to its access to a strong priority option in Bullet Punch. While Bullet Punch doesn't kill most threats on its own, it can easily clean up a Pokemon that's taken damage throughout the match. Counterplay to Mega Metagross usually involves swapping in Intimidate setters to limit Mega Metagross' ability to cripple a team, or using fast Special Attackers that can scare out Mega Metagross. However, it's difficult to switch a Pokemon into Mega Metagross' powerful moves, as Mega Metagross has a wide array of movepool options that can kill various threats, and enough damage can place a Pokemon in the dangerous range of Mega Metagross' aforementioned Bullet Punch.

Additionally, Mega Metagross lacks native recovery, meaning that it can be worn down over the course of a match. However, the wide array of support options present in National Dex Doubles can help overcome this issue. Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain can provide passive recovery over time. Other support options can help boost Mega Metagross' already high stats, with screens making it extremely hard to break down over time, and Howl boosting an already incredible attack stat.

As usual, a 60% ban vote must be achieved in order to ban Mega Metagross.

Suspect Test Information​

• Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80% GXE will suffice.

Requisites

GXE	minimum games
84	30
83.8	31
83.6	32
83.4	33
83.2	34
83	35
82.8	36
82.6	37
82.4	38
82.2	39
82	40
81.8	41
81.6	42
81.4	43
81.2	44
81	45
80.8	46
80.6	47
80.4	48
80.2	49
80	50

• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDDMM. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDDMM big pichu.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular National Dex Doubles ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The element being tested, Mega Metagross, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• We will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or National Dex Doubles moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid playing more games before getting confirmed. You will be notified when you are confirmed by moderator edit.
• The suspect test will begin at Thursday April 4th, 4AM UTC (Thursday April 4th, 12AMEDT) and go on for roughly 16 days, lasting until Saturday April 20th, 4AM UTC (Saturday April 20th, 12AM EDT) , and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
  
  Tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

The latest suspect is upon us. Based on discussion in the community and the council, we've decided to suspect Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross has always been a powerful threat in the National Dex Doubles metagame, but the release of the Indigo Disk gave Mega Metagross access to the extremely powerful Heavy Slam, a move that hits at 120 base power to a sizeable chunk of the metagame due to Mega Metagross' immense weight and is further bolstered by Tough Claws and a colossal 145 Attack stat. Paired with incredible defensive stats and a solid defensive typing, Mega Metagross can be a dangerous threat that's extremely difficult to remove from the game.

Mega Metagross also manages to check several Pokemon that would nominally be a threat to it, such as Flutter Mane, due to its access to a strong priority option in Bullet Punch. While Bullet Punch doesn't kill most threats on its own, it can easily clean up a Pokemon that's taken damage throughout the match. Counterplay to Mega Metagross usually involves swapping in Intimidate setters to limit Mega Metagross' ability to cripple a team, or using fast Special Attackers that can scare out Mega Metagross. However, it's difficult to switch a Pokemon into Mega Metagross' powerful moves, as Mega Metagross has a wide array of movepool options that can kill various threats, and enough damage can place a Pokemon in the dangerous range of Mega Metagross' aforementioned Bullet Punch.

Additionally, Mega Metagross lacks native recovery, meaning that it can be worn down over the course of a match. However, the wide array of support options present in National Dex Doubles can help overcome this issue. Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain can provide passive recovery over time. Other support options can help boost Mega Metagross' already high stats, with screens making it extremely hard to break down over time, and Howl boosting an already incredible attack stat.

As usual, a 60% ban vote must be achieved in order to ban Mega Metagross.

Suspect Test Information​

• Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80% GXE will suffice.

Requisites

GXE	minimum games
84	30
83.8	31
83.6	32
83.4	33
83.2	34
83	35
82.8	36
82.6	37
82.4	38
82.2	39
82	40
81.8	41
81.6	42
81.4	43
81.2	44
81	45
80.8	46
80.6	47
80.4	48
80.2	49
80	50

• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDDMM. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDDMM big pichu.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular National Dex Doubles ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The element being tested, Mega Metagross, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• We will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or National Dex Doubles moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid playing more games before getting confirmed. You will be notified when you are confirmed by moderator edit.
• The suspect test will begin at Thursday April 4th, 4AM UTC (Thursday April 4th, 12AMEDT) and go on for roughly 16 days, lasting until Saturday April 20th, 4AM UTC (Saturday April 20th, 12AM EDT) , and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
  
  Tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this.

Great music taste...

 

[LuBiStar20]

I've played my fair bit of NDD, and I want to say I don't think Mega Metagross is broken enough to be suspect tested, or even banned. I used MMeta, and it was not that broken to me. Whenever I went up against it, it wasn't that big of a threat. Sure, with support it can be great, but the same thing goes for Zygarde, Deoxys, Charizard, and more.
It is a good Pokémon, don't get me wrong. Tough Claws + 145 ATK is definitely good, but it has a speed stat that can be outrun by Marshadow and Flutter Mane. Most Steel-Types wall it, unless it has Stomping tantrum, in which it definitely has better coverage than Psychic Fangs. I just don't think it should be banned lol.

 

[eragon]

thought about saving this for the return of the podcast but it's midnight and I know I'm not bouta be productive about anything else rn

I recently made this post regarding the state of ND DOU but I'd like to go a bit more in depth about specifically Mega Megagross here/as well as a message to anyone asking for something else to be suspected instead.

Somewhat Quick restating of some points about the metagame

The current state of natdex is, well, unideal to say the least. Just as an anecdote, one of my friends recently decided to try the tier out for the first time. What was their reaction to the tier? All I'll say is it certainly wasn't positive

The tier currently exists as a balance between 3-5 broken mons consistently interacting in unhinged ways, which is admittedly fun at first. I can see why several of the people who have laddered for this suspect as their first experience with the tier don't really mind Metagross or the metagame at large because of the oh-it's-natdex-lets-have-fun-using-the-broken-stuff-that's-never-all-been-in-the-same-format-before appeal. However, the state of the ladder doesn't quite accurately represent the tournament metagame, whose condition this suspect (as I'd argue the majority, but not all suspect tests) primarily aims to address.

Playing this tier competitively means you have to take the tier far more seriously than simply laddering and doing so really forces you to come to terms with just how strong a few of the top mons really are (primarily Mega Metagross, Zamazenta, and Marshadow). I think all 3 of these mons are inherently broken and likely will need to be removed from the tier at some point but from my and many others' perspective Mega Metagross stands above the other two as the more imminent issue.

Opportunity Cost and Centralization

If you've played metagames with Megas in them, you've probably heard the term "opportunity cost" thrown around a fair amount- it's pretty much the reason why using Mega Audino in DUbers is throwing because you can't use Mega Rayquaza. I think one of Metagross' biggest sins is just how thoroughly it outclasses the competition. When prepping for this tier for a tournament setting, it's genuinely really hard to justify using any other mega when this thing exists just due to its stats and damage output. Kanghaskan, Salamence, and Charizard so still have a small amount of use but really I'd say Metagross far outclasses them all unless you really want to use or punish a specific archetype in the teambuilder. More concretely, Mega-Metagross is the first tier 1 mega we've had in this tier and personally I don't like that for the health of the metagame considering the aforementioned opportunity cost. This isn't the end-all be-all by any means but it's important to note.

When it comes to the factors that actually contribute to Metagross' strength, two things really stick out to me:
1) An honestly wild 80/150/110 defensive statline
2) Blatantly Insane Offensive Capabilities

To further elaborate:
1. This is probably not what people first think of when noticing a Pokemon with 145 base attack but this defensive profile is really what makes me feel this mon is just unfair. It's actually quite difficult to actually OHKO this mon even when it's uninvested, which means that it pretty much always gets value even when it's facing down a poor matchup. For instance, take Volcanion, a 120 defense mon with a type advantage over Metagross. Even with a max-spatk Volcanion (which I don't really think is a great set to begin with) against a 0 hp 0 spdef Metagross, heat wave never kills from full:
252+ SpA Volcanion Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This might seem like a lot of damage but keep in mind that Megagross pretty much always has tough claws boosted stomping tantrum. Living hits like this is really what makes Metagross so difficult to handle, and frankly a mon that has such strong offenses not being able to be ohko'd by common supereffective hits doesn't sit well with me:

A few Calcs

Flutter can't ohko unless specs:
252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Life Orb Marshadow is always a roll not in your favor:
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+2 Zygarde struggles to do damage, even with max attack fails to secure an ohko with supereffective tarrows:
+2 72+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 240-284 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Life Orb Pao can't even avoid an unfavorable roll with sucker:
252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 265-315 (88 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

And there are many more...

I hope this illustrates that even when you manage to get a hit off against Metagross it often fails to net you nearly as much an advantage as you might hope, a really frustrating quality when you take into account the next big point:

2) Metagross' most obvious broken factor is its damage output. In this gen, the mon has access to Heavy Slam. Yeah. This move is really what transformed the mon from one of the best in SM to something hilariously broken in Natdex. This move hits the vast majority of targets for 120 base power and is boosted by tough claws, meaning basically nothing switches into it.

More importantly, having this move has really changed how the mon plays in my eyes. In previous gens, mega evolving the mon had one primary downside in that you lost the ability Clear Body, letting the opponent intimidate you and force you out or make you deal far less damage with Iron Head or whatever. Having Heavy Slam means that intimidate calcs often don't actually change the net outcome as Metagross stays in and proceeds to still 2hko you with 156 effective BP heavy slam. Here's two replays from Natdex World Cup where this interaction makes a pretty big deal, letting Metagross get so much value even after being weakened offensively:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexdoubles-2091871433
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-2092984536-8g8hbvuuj01pal1uhs7431egt4fw2uupw <-- this game in particular is a great illustration of Metagross' dominance

This Pokemon is not ok. It is too difficult to limit its damage or actually knock it out and does not belong in this tier whatsoever. That being said, let me address one of the biggest arguments I've seen against this suspect:


This Pokemon has also seen quite a bit of use in the last few weeks and many find it to be unhealthy. The rise of the Iron defense body press set has made quite a splash and personally I'm also inclined to agree that it's a bit much for the tier. HOWEVER, this current set is relatively new and primarily capitalizes off of a physical-attack heavy metagame that Metagross helps create. We may still very well need to take action regarding this mon in the future regardless of the current suspect but Metagross has been a more prominent issue for longer and imo has less of a chance of being balanced if the metagame changes. By contrast, if we see a rise in special attackers or other megas in a hypothetical Post-Metagross world I think there is a chance, albeit small, that this mon would be less problematic. PLEASE do not let Zamazenta's strength distract from the other issue at hand-- if Zamazenta is still a problem later on we can suspect it later but for now the priority should be working to try to get a more balanced metagame, to which Metagross is the most prominent obstacle that we have the opportunity to get rid of right now. Broken checking broken does not indicate a healthy tier and unfortunately this tier currently has a lot of that, but we can do something about it!

I see getting rid of Metagross as the best pathway forward to begin eliminating some of the broken mons from ND DOU and as such I will be voting Ban. Thanks for reading!

 

[Test Bots]

Gross, despite how the new players may think, is not healthy for the metagame. I define an unhealthy metagame as one that limits team building along with its strategies. For example, if I plan to use a Sun team, I have to make sure that Zard survives at least two Heavy Slams from Gross. That doesn't seem to make sense does it? That would mean that I cannot risk switching in Zard because Gross will KO it the following turn.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 169-200 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 152-179 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Gross's abnormal damage output is simply insane. Well, how about in scenario where a mon safely switches out to Gross? Let's say your Kingambit is out on the field with full HP. Well, tough luck because you're not KO'ing Gross in one turn. In fact, there is no mon in a normal scenario where they would come out undamaged by Gross before KO'ing it. Note that Gross is almost guranteed to half the HP of your Kingambit with Stomping Tampstrum.

252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 218-260 (72.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The last property of Gross that I want to talk about is its access to Bullet Punch. Now, it can do quite a damage even in scenarios where it doesn't have the speed advantage. One particular victim of Gross's Bullet Punch is Flutter Mane, and Flutter Mane is already a Tier 1 mon. Flutter Mane, like Zard, is forced to invest in an unreasonable amount of bulk just to survive a priority move with a power of 40 (more with Tough Claws).

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Flutter Mane: 264-312 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Altogether, you can see that Gross has not an amazing, but a stupid offensive capabilities as well as stupid defensive properties. Its movesets include a Z-move without limits, a ground-type move as coverage (perfect for most mons that resists its Steel-type moves), and a priority move. Gross is basically too perfect.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
​

So far, I've only given scenario in which Gross excels. Now, I'm going to talk about it in context of high level play. During Week 1 of National Dex World Cup, out of the 6 ND Doubles matches played, 5 of them included Gross. Of these 5 games, Gross won 4 of them. None were mirror matches. This perhaps led to an unusual number of Sun and Zygarde teams for Week 2. Out of the 3 matches that involved Gross (for Week 2), Gross had lost all matches. One thing in common that all victors had against Gross was that their teams had Zygarde, not Zard. You may think that this is a good scenario, especially since there is a mon that does so well against Gross, but I do not view it as such. Here's why. Relying one specific mon to take out another particular mon is simply restrictive to the metagame.

I ask new players of ND DOU to look past the ladder because it is not a good reflection of the metagame. We have replays here that shows how Gross is actually played in the actual competitive scene. Do not vote "do not ban" because it felt good to use Gross. Play against the more experienced players, and experience first hand how restrictive playing against Gross could be. I know that I faced less than a handful of Gross during my suspect run, so I'm sure you have hardly faced Gross as well. This suspect is the first of the many that will make this metagame a much healthier one, and we need your help to make it be so.

Thanks for reading! I know this one was a long one.

 

[sir jelloton]

I would like to share 2 replays with you all that reinforce my desire to ban Gross.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-760696
In this game Bagel uses a set containing hammer arm and stomping tantrum as coverage moves on his gross set. this hits all of the pokemon some people claim gross has trouble breaking such as incineroar kingambit volcanion etc and while usually losing speed would be reason enough not to use this move, gross is so ridiculously bulky that it can easily take boosted hits, so the set is viable and gets a lot of value here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-2100020915-31sriv8v0itu1cn9r3zbbkimmofmq3qpw
This entire team is absolute villany shoutout to whoever built it and to mcbruh for popularizing this structure(SO FUN.) but lets hone in on this gross set. its a bulky iron defense set with body press. even though its non stab it's stats and ability still make the body press damage incredibily high, and its also unable to be poisoned(a weakness of the usual wincons on these structures) or tricked which made it hard for me to beat it here. its last move was heavy slam on this team, but say this was last move stored power to 1v1 zama? or last move bullet punch to still be able to beat fluttermane? or a cosmic power set to be a catch all into everything? this mon really could get away with it all.

If you wanted to take it a step further, metagross standard is a completely viable pokemon and has seen success in past metas. if you're usual metagross counterplay loses to a tera fairy from regular metagross for example then what? other users have stated the effectiveness of the typical usage of gross, heavy slam, pfangs/bpunch, stomping tantrum and protect, but there are a myriad of other viable sets that requiredifferent methods to defeat them that i assure you will rise to prominence if gross stays in this tier

Ladderers, Maybe the metagross you've been seeing/ playing with on ladder haven't been an issue for you because they have to play correctly to get use out of the monstorous heavy slam and most do not, but are you gonna wanna deal with it when they realize they can start using this mon to set up spam? do you really wanna deal with this in your ladder games AND leave those actively participating in tours in pain? do the right thing.

Ban Gross.

 

[LuBiStar20]

I've played my fair bit of NDD, and I want to say I don't think Mega Metagross is broken enough to be suspect tested, or even banned. I used MMeta, and it was not that broken to me. Whenever I went up against it, it wasn't that big of a threat. Sure, with support it can be great, but the same thing goes for Zygarde, Deoxys, Charizard, and more.
It is a good Pokémon, don't get me wrong. Tough Claws + 145 ATK is definitely good, but it has a speed stat that can be outrun by Marshadow and Flutter Mane. Most Steel-Types wall it, unless it has Stomping tantrum, in which it definitely has better coverage than Psychic Fangs. I just don't think it should be banned lol.

After reading all of the replies in this thread, my views have shifted dramatically. Almost immediately after posting this I went up against the Demon IDBP set that Jello talked about. When I made the original post, I was solely thinking about ladder, but I realize how big of a problem that this can cause in tournament games. It can run so many sets, and sometimes it's some wack ass shit that you weren't prepared for. Plz ban Metagross, and worry about Zamazenta later. Thank you for enlightening me on the real strength of this monster

 

[km079]

I would like to share 2 replays with you all that reinforce my desire to ban Gross.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-760696
In this game Bagel uses a set containing hammer arm and stomping tantrum as coverage moves on his gross set. this hits all of the pokemon some people claim gross has trouble breaking such as incineroar kingambit volcanion etc and while usually losing speed would be reason enough not to use this move, gross is so ridiculously bulky that it can easily take boosted hits, so the set is viable and gets a lot of value here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-2100020915-31sriv8v0itu1cn9r3zbbkimmofmq3qpw
This entire team is absolute villany shoutout to whoever built it and to mcbruh for popularizing this structure(SO FUN.) but lets hone in on this gross set. its a bulky iron defense set with body press. even though its non stab it's stats and ability still make the body press damage incredibily high, and its also unable to be poisoned(a weakness of the usual wincons on these structures) or tricked which made it hard for me to beat it here. its last move was heavy slam on this team, but say this was last move stored power to 1v1 zama? or last move bullet punch to still be able to beat fluttermane? or a cosmic power set to be a catch all into everything? this mon really could get away with it all.

If you wanted to take it a step further, metagross standard is a completely viable pokemon and has seen success in past metas. if you're usual metagross counterplay loses to a tera fairy from regular metagross for example then what? other users have stated the effectiveness of the typical usage of gross, heavy slam, pfangs/bpunch, stomping tantrum and protect, but there are a myriad of other viable sets that requiredifferent methods to defeat them that i assure you will rise to prominence if gross stays in this tier

Ladderers, Maybe the metagross you've been seeing/ playing with on ladder haven't been an issue for you because they have to play correctly to get use out of the monstorous heavy slam and most do not, but are you gonna wanna deal with it when they realize they can start using this mon to set up spam? do you really wanna deal with this in your ladder games AND leave those actively participating in tours in pain? do the right thing.

Ban Gross.

thank you to call my orignal team "villany", mega Metagross is not invincible; one of the way to countering it lies within my very team (volcanion、sinistcha).
and he still can't do anything to pokemon such as /curse yawn dondozo/ trick room attacker / encore prankster / scarf or sash chi-yu / final gambit or Z-happyhour victini/ flamebody rocky helmet follow me / tailwind landrous / slowbro / imprison zamazante and mew/ tera ghost bellydrum darkest larait snorlax / focus energy ogerpon / psych up team / and so on.

Metagross is an extreme, yet still highly counterable, with each player capable of devising their own approach to facing it.
Resorting to outright bans of such Pokémon like Urshifu, Annihilape, and Commander Tatsugiri would only serve to further estrange the NDDOU format from official VGC regulations and erode its appeal.

 

[sir jelloton]

thank you to call my orignal team "villany", mega Metagross is not invincible; one of the way to countering it lies within my very team (volcanion、sinistcha).
and he still can't do anything to pokemon such as /curse yawn dondozo/ trick room attacker / encore prankster / scarf or sash chi-yu / final gambit or Z-happyhour victini/ flamebody rocky helmet follow me / tailwind landrous / slowbro / imprison zamazante and mew/ tera ghost bellydrum darkest larait snorlax / focus energy ogerpon / psych up team / and so on.

Metagross is an extreme, yet still highly counterable, with each player capable of devising their own approach to facing it.
Resorting to outright bans of such Pokémon like Urshifu, Annihilape, and Commander Tatsugiri would only serve to further estrange the NDDOU format from official VGC regulations and erode its appeal.

Well a couple things
1. this metagross set was not the reason I lost this game nor did I claim it as such. The team was not well equipped for sinistcha which allowed for easy set up. the point of sharing the replay was to show metagross was a perfectly viable set up win con when its already the best breaker in the tier. which actually good pokemon(I will get too) will struggle to deal with consistently

2. This tier is not vgc and is not trying to appeal to vgcers please don't get the wrong impression. This has a few implications. Things like dondozo, bellydrum snorlax. magmar(the follow me mon i assume you're reffering too) etc are usually bad pokemon and are basically useless when you start getting into other structures like deo psyspam, gholdengo balance, Sun and basically most special based offensive structures. This is not vgc where if you don't get a matchup good for these mons you can just not bring them, you are in a lot of ways deciding to forfeit a 6th pokemon slot by bringing most of the pokemon you listed here in most non-gross/zama match ups. I think the very fact you view most of these mons as potentially viable should be indicative of the state of the current meta and how over run we are with monstorous physical mons that are far too strong and I heavily disagree with this mindset that we should be warping our minds to adapt to the clearly broken mons in the tier because they are "not invincible" instead of just improving the tier by removing them.

 

[Smudge]

Mega Metagross has been banned.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-dou-3-mega-metagross.3741586/page-2#post-10082275