Metagame np: Stage 7: New Americana

asa

picaresque mouse haru
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PU Leader

At long last, SV PU has undergone its final massive tier shift. Along with everything we’ve received from NU, we’re unbanning every PUBL member as stated here. Below are all of the new Pokemon we got, including PUBL unbans:

:altaria::ambipom::arcanine::articuno-galar::bellibolt::cetitan::coalossal::delphox::drednaw::drifblim::duraludon::emboar::flamigo::florges::gastrodon::gligar::golurk::goodra::grimmsnarl::heracross::hitmonlee::hitmontop::inteleon::kilowattrel::kingdra::meloetta::milotic::minior::mudsdale::oricorio-pom-pom::oricorio-sensu::pawmot::qwilfish::rotom-heat::salazzle::scrafty::scream tail::slowbro-galar::smeargle::staraptor::tatsugiri::tauros-paldea-aqua::tauros-paldea-blaze::tornadus::toxtricity::zoroark:

The PU council will be taking action in the coming days to try and stabilize the tier as quickly as possible. Feel free to share your thoughts on the metagame and what you think might be good, broken, or otherwise interesting! Please note that suspect tests are much more feasible now that we aren't getting new Pokemon every month, so don't get discouraged if we don't act on something right away.

With all that said, enjoy the new SV PU!​
 
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Is this really PU...?

Quick suggestions:

:golurk:
Golurk @ Choice Band / Colbur Berry / Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Fighting / Ghost / Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Dynamic Punch / Stone Edge
- Trick / Stealth Rock

This thing hits so hard. Regarding coverage, Ghost/Ground/Fighting with strong STAbs and perfect accuracy must be perfection.

:emboar:
Emboar @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Head Smash
- Sucker Punch

Emboar hits like a truck as well. I have no idea if Bulk Up + Drain Punch is a thing but perhaps it's worth mentioning it.

Also, rain could be really threatening with :kingdra:, :kilowattrel: or :drednaw: but we have things like :milotic:, :gastrodon:, :abomasnow: or :poliwrath: as well.
Honestly I have no idea how to build at the moment, it's definitely too unstable. At least shifts will stabilise for a while.
 
Lmao.. So many broken stuff. Some mons that seem immediately broken are
:Meloetta: yeah this Mon ain't gonna be tier staple. Sub cm specs and scarf are all just better mesprit-A previously good to great Mon. It also is stupidly bulky aswell.. (it can ev so that gligar eq doesn't break sub bruh).

:Delphox: yeah.. No. Nasty Plot delphox is broken as f... It just needs plot and dual stabs. Last move can vary from protect (for scouting from mons like scarf bruxish and flamigo) to sub for status protection to focus blast to for whatever it wants.. Specs and scarf are very good too. Only really checked by AV variants of meloetta.
 
:tornadus: :kilowattrel: :kingdra: :drednaw:
So immediately through what I've played so far rain seems like the most problematic thing by far. Kingdra is a strong rain abuser (its like golduck but good), torn can set rain and it and kilowattrel are also strong abusers with weather ball and perfectly accurate stabs, and drenaw clicks shell smash once and outspeeds and one shots everything with liquidation. This + floatzel which was already an incredibly strong mon under rain in its own right makes it too much IMO. Gastrodon and Wo-Chien are good answers on paper but rain has pretty easy ways around both of them. Drednaw has potential to be broken outside of rain but I'm not sure about that and I don't think any specific element is too much by itself so I'd rather just see the whole thing go.

:toxtricity:
Good thing we have palo IG but IDK if thats enough. Toxtricity hits incredibly hard, and with shift gear its like hoopa that can sweep and has a non awful defensive typing. Mon seems really restrictive on teambuilding if you don't wanna just run HO or include palossand or golurk or bastiodon. Don't like this mon.

:mudsdale:
Godlike ground type. Great bulk and stamina makes it very durable especially on the physical end and its got high attack to hit back hard. Our most reliable ground for sure, similar to its USUM days I think.

:milotic:
Amazing bulky water. Fantastic special bulk and pretty good phys bulk actually, with reliable recovery to make it a reliable wall throughout the game. Most notably though is scald + flip turn, which lets it actually be scary with the threat of scald burns and maintain momentum, potentially crippling a whole team. This + options like haze and dragon tail or even niche stuff like mirror coat and whirlpool will make this a staple for balance teams (also stall teams real? Maybe?)
 
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Drednaw @ White Herb
Ability: Strong Jaw / Swift Swim
Tera Type: Dark / Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Head Smash
- Crunch / Skitter Smack / Ice Fang
- Liquidation / other options listed above


This thing is potentially the biggest hazard this tier has ever faced. I say this as resident Chewtle enthusiast for over 4 years, and the one who single handedly convinced a non-miniscule number of UU players that Drednaw unironically was UU material.

for like, 3 months, and i never hit top 10, and it was at the start of SV, but hey let's not talk about that.

Drednaw just sort of clicks Smash and wins the game. If you're running Rain, you have Swift Swim Liquidation Tera Water, which effectively OHKOs everything that isn't a quad resist or something like Tera-ing with Regirock immediately.
(+2 252 Atk Tera Water Drednaw Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 292-348 (80.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)

If you're rain and you want to lure, or you aren't using weather, just click Shell Smash with Tera Dark Crunch and Strong Jaw.

If you're using either, just click Head Smash if you feel like you have a bad matchup, and you'll probably kill whatever's in front of you!

Wo-Chien? This thing gets fucking Skitter Smack for some god-forsaken reason, so it can just instakill Wo-Chien. Or do 80% with Head Smash, that works too. Or Ice Fang, which conveniently is Strong Jaw boosted, hits Tera Dragon grounds like Sandaconda, and bops mons like Mowtom and Thwackey. Dude has options for ANYTHING.




I want this thing in the tier to relive the glory days of terrorizing high ladder UU with Tera Dark Crunch, but at the same time, this thing is an evil and deserves to be smite'd from this tier. See: Morge's concern with rain. Now imagine this thing that doesn't even need rain to just win the video game. yeah.









ok for things that are less committing war crimes in uu:

:pawmot: pretty pog to see the old uu titan fall to pu as well. 105 speed is solid enough, CB/LO with Tera Elec Double Shock drops most mons in the tier. Iron Fist Mach Punch is also really nice for picking off setup mons or scarfers. hard loses to palossand though, which is kinda cringe, and it has no real way to break it. i'll find a way to make my (third) favorite gen 9 mon viable!

:rotom-heat: same shtick, glad to see he's in pu. levitating fire is really cool, sucks it's weak to stone edge/slide but not a lot of the grounds enjoy taking an Overheat, gastro notwithstanding. I'll be sad if it returns to a higher tier tbh, already excited to use NP sets.

:slowbro-galar: Phys fat mon not reliant on an item with regenerator? pairs well with a really weird defensive typing that has 3 stupidly good resistances and can run haze to stop the stupid alcremie that deserve no rights. i like him! colbur sets feel pretty consistent, and matches up decently into the Grassy Terrain teams.
 
Can’t wait for a quickban tidal wave because there’s no way in the deepest pits of hell that this generation’s PU should resemble the previous generation’s RU.
 

asa

picaresque mouse haru
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
PU Leader
Quick thoughts on a few Pokemon/things:

:drednaw:
I think most people agree this is a bit of an issue. I haven't played against it much myself, but Shell Smash + almost perfect STAB coverage + an actual defensive profile all does seem pretty ridiculous. Walling Drednaw is pretty tough without physically defensive Gastrodon or some weirdo Tera Palossand, and you can pretty easily slot on Tera Blast Grass or even Tera Dark Strong Jaw Crunch for these (the latter also helps vs Prankster and Sucker Punch). Cleanly revenge killing it seems a little tricky too without something like Mach Punch Pawmot, and the resistances to common types like Fire, Poison, Flying, and Normal all give it easy chances to set up. It's also worth mentioning that rain makes it harder to deal with, but it really doesn't need rain to function. I'll try to use it more before this weekend, but it's probably not worth keeping this around.


Speaking of rain, it has too many good tools right now imo. Drednaw and Kingdra pretty easily put holes in teams and aren't easy to revenge kill under rain, Kilowattrel and Tornadus get to spam Thunder/Hurricane + Weather Ball without much drawback, and there's even other stuff like Tauros-W and Qwilfish-H to get past Goodra, Bronzong, and Wo-Chien. Banning Damp Rock is probably the logical solution, since I'd argue none of the rain breakers/sweepers feel problematic yet except Drednaw.

:flamigo:
Literally Decidueye-H but better, probably also broken. Choice Flamigo has to predict fairly often, but guessing wrong isn't even always a huge deal because Intimidate can't slow it down and Close Combat is pretty free without Ghosts/Tera Ghost to stop it. SD sets make its STAB moves even freer and can even run Feint to somewhat compensate for the mediocre Speed. Nothing really switches in on Flamigo except Oricorio-Pom-Pom, and it's not entirely inept defensively. Fun to use, but not my amigo.

:florges:
Possibly cheap, maybe, question mark? Not really unkillable, but Calm Mind sets feel hard to take down without dedicating a ton of resources when I use them. Psychic Noise is also annoying and makes outlasting it even harder. Non-Calm Mind sets are very balanced, though, and Florges itself struggles against Psychic Noise and Encore. Its physical bulk is also mediocre even with investment, though it doesn't struggle to stay healthy imo and requires strong physical attackers to cleanly take down.

:zoroark:
Still kind of toxic with the mindgames it forces, though I'm not entirely sure how unhealthy I'd say it is. Balance is on the up and up, and Zoroark is really good at cheesing through it, so we'll see how it goes. If it ends up on the slate, though, I'm probably voting ban.

:toxtricity:
This feels like Hoopa again, though +1 (potentially STAB) Boomburst is much scarier than anything Hoopa can do. Choice Specs and Shift Gear sets break through teams really easily, and not a whole lot actually tanks hits from Toxtricity without being outright immune. Need more time to fully decide how I feel about it.

:cetitan:
Was initially worried about Cetitan, but I'm not convinced it's that good anymore. Cetitan currently has to contend with rain and can easily fail versus walls like Milotic, Rotom-H, and Bronzong as well as even Wo-Chien, all of which pretty easy to include on teams. Down to keep an eye on it, but idk seems a bit overblown.

:hitmonlee::inteleon::minior::oricorio-pom-pom::oricorio-sensu::pawmot::staraptor:
Grouping these all together because they're mildly dishonest imo, but I'm not fully convinced that any of them need to go yet. None of them feel too crazy relative to the stuff I've already mentioned, but maybe they will after the initial ban wave.

:bellibolt::delphox::gligar::goodra::milotic::mudsdale::rotom-heat::scrafty::scream tail::slowbro-galar::tauros-paldea-aqua:
These all feel incredibly good and will probably be top Pokemon once the initial ban wave happens and as balance continues to develop/improve.

:bronzong::grafaiai::regirock::rotom-mow::sandslash-alola::scyther::skuntank::snorlax::virizion::wo-chien:
These transitioned pretty well into the new meta, don't forget about them just because of all the new stuff we got!

~~~
Since our samples aren't updated, here are some fun teams I've been liking!

:meloetta::wo-chien::flamigo::rotom-heat::bronzong::tatsugiri:

:meloetta::coalossal::qwilfish::pawmot::tornadus::grafaiai:

:toxtricity::flamigo::bronzong::florges::milotic::zoroark:

:tauros-paldea-aqua::gligar::sandslash-alola::florges::rotom-mow::goodra:
(the florges ev spread on the third team came from a team sensei axew made, credit to him for it)
 
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I honestly wonder how meloetta pirouette form would work in the tier. It's like supercharged flamigo, who people are saying is pretty good.
Once I stop grinding for Elo with meloetta in OU, might try that out. But H-decidueye will also have a special place in my heart for g-terrain teams.
 
Quick thoughts on a few Pokemon/things:

:drednaw:
I think most people agree this is a bit of an issue. I haven't played against it much myself, but Shell Smash + almost perfect STAB coverage + an actual defensive profile all does seem pretty ridiculous. Walling Drednaw is pretty tough without physically defensive Gastrodon or some weirdo Tera Palossand, and you can pretty easily slot on Tera Blast Grass or even Tera Dark Strong Jaw Crunch for these (the latter also helps vs Prankster and Sucker Punch). Cleanly revenge killing it seems a little tricky too without something like Mach Punch Pawmot, and the resistances to common types like Fire, Poison, Flying, and Normal all give it easy chances to set up. It's also worth mentioning that rain makes it harder to deal with, but it really doesn't need rain to function. I'll try to use it more before this weekend, but it's probably not worth keeping this around.


Speaking of rain, it has too many good tools right now imo. Drednaw and Kingdra pretty easily put holes in teams and aren't easy to revenge kill under rain, Kilowattrel and Tornadus get to spam Thunder/Hurricane + Weather Ball without much drawback, and there's even other stuff like Tauros-W and Qwilfish-H to get past Goodra, Bronzong, and Wo-Chien. Banning Damp Rock is probably the logical solution, since I'd argue none of the rain breakers/sweepers feel problematic yet except Drednaw.

:flamigo:
Literally Decidueye-H but better, probably also broken. Choice Flamigo has to predict fairly often, but guessing wrong isn't even always a huge deal because Intimidate can't slow it down and Close Combat is pretty free without Ghosts/Tera Ghost to stop it. SD sets make its STAB moves even freer and can even run Feint to somewhat compensate for the mediocre Speed. Nothing really switches in on Flamigo except Oricorio-Pom-Pom, and it's not entirely inept defensively. Fun to use, but not my amigo.

:florges:
Possibly cheap, maybe, question mark? Not really unkillable, but Calm Mind sets feel hard to take down without dedicating a ton of resources when I use them. Psychic Noise is also annoying and makes outlasting it even harder. Non-Calm Mind sets are very balanced, though, and Florges itself struggles against Psychic Noise and Encore. Its physical bulk is also mediocre even with investment, though it doesn't struggle to stay healthy imo and requires strong physical attackers to cleanly take down.

:zoroark:
Still kind of toxic with the mindgames it forces, though I'm not entirely sure how unhealthy I'd say it is. Balance is on the up and up, and Zoroark is really good at cheesing through it, so we'll see how it goes. If it ends up on the slate, though, I'm probably voting ban.

:toxtricity:
This feels like Hoopa again, though +1 (potentially STAB) Boomburst is much scarier than anything Hoopa can do. Choice Specs and Shift Gear sets break through teams really easily, and not a whole lot actually tanks hits from Toxtricity without being outright immune. Need more time to fully decide how I feel about it.

:cetitan:
Was initially worried about Cetitan, but I'm not convinced it's that good anymore. Cetitan currently has to contend with rain and can easily fail versus walls like Milotic, Rotom-H, and Bronzong as well as even Wo-Chien, all of which pretty easy to include on teams. Down to keep an eye on it, but idk seems a bit overblown.

:hitmonlee::inteleon::minior::oricorio-pom-pom::oricorio-sensu::pawmot::staraptor:
Grouping these all together because they're mildly dishonest imo, but I'm not fully convinced that any of them need to go yet. None of them feel too crazy relative to the stuff I've already mentioned, but maybe they will after the initial ban wave.

:bellibolt::gligar::goodra::milotic::mudsdale::rotom-heat::scrafty::scream tail::tauros-paldea-aqua:
These all feel incredibly good and will probably be top Pokemon once the initial ban wave happens and as balance continues to develop/improve.

:bronzong::grafaiai::regirock::rotom-mow::sandslash-alola::scyther::skuntank::snorlax::virizion::wo-chien:
These transitioned pretty well into the new meta, don't forget about them just because of all the new stuff we got!

~~~
Since our samples aren't updated, here are some fun teams I've been liking!

:meloetta::wo-chien::flamigo::rotom-heat::bronzong::tatsugiri:

:meloetta::coalossal::qwilfish::pawmot::tornadus::grafaiai:

:toxtricity::flamigo::bronzong::florges::milotic::zoroark:

:tauros-paldea-aqua::gligar::sandslash-alola::florges::rotom-mow::goodra:
(the florges ev spread on the third team came from a team sensei axew made, credit to him for it)

At least 1/3 of the new drops have been banned in NU at some point, so having the feeling that there might be lots of broken stuff is completely legitimate: sometimes maybe not broken, but cheap and still annoying (like the Oricorios, the Shell Smash users or the Zoroark/Migo mindgames)

The icing on the cake is that NU is still keeping Avalugg, so PU Snow might be even trickier to deal with, compared to the situation in NU of some months ago
 
Another thing I'm interested in is :tatsugiri: This mon looks like it could be great, due to storm drain and a decent speed stat. It can absolutely counter the hell out of the rain assault on the tier.
This is a set I could see working, you switch into a water move, get a boost and then sweep. Tera steel is to take a rock move or dragon move from the swift swimmers.
Tatsugiri @ Life Orb
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Tera Blast
+2 252 Atk Drednaw Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Steel Tatsugiri: 225-265 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Tatsugiri: 147-173 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Elvira

formerly bruised
I am getting back into PU after taking a hiatus from main tier types that aren't SV Mono type (NDM Girlie<3)



I have quite a few things that could be a bit problematic though with the ongoing new weeks ahead they may diminish:

:sv/scream-tail:

This pink fella can really shut down most forms of setup and with its speed and constant relying on wish protect encore; can honestly be a problem more so down the line. It also has access to forms of setup such as bulk up and calm mind. Stored power is also a fear factor especially with encore being on the 1 of 4 moves.

Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Encore
- Psychic Noise / Dazzling Gleam

One of the most basic yet still one of the most reliable sets. Just now adding a psychic sound move that blocks any form of healing (I believe even leftovers recovery!).


:sv/Meloetta:


I dont really have a destined set for her, though the issue arises where Meloetta can either be absurdly overpowered with choice sets, the Relic Song set that bypasses the sleep clause due to a slim chance though with Serene Grace.. yeah. Or a support set that can be the most tedious. I will update this soon.




:sv/gligar:


I actually dont have a problem with this mon dropping down to PU. Most teams rely on a very bulky set. So in the event that Scream Tails may not get banned or even suspected (I doubt) those two as a pair is a great idea! (I wish gligar still had roost :( )
 

Oglemi

Borf
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:drednaw:
Drednaw @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Liquidation
- Stone Edge
- Tera Blast

I heard rain teams were good here so I came running. I've been playing around with different rain variations the past couple days and I gotta say that this thing is insane. If I, a rusty chump, can just click SS and sweep without even planning in-game, something is amiss lol.

I've found that Head Smash is overkill, and really doesn't work well as you need to take a hit from time to time and Dred has some decent bulk that's otherwise squandered by the recoil. There's some fringe benefits to running it but I've yet to regret packing Stone Edge instead.

Tera Flying is imo the secret sauce that really puts in work. Hard screws over Gastrodon and the like while also being able to turn the tables on Fighting and Grass types, the latter being especially nice to not have to risk a Rock miss. Leaves you a bit stranded if you need to SS against something like Rotom but you really shouldn't need to be in that position on a dedicated rain team, especially when "guaranteed" rain exists with Tornadus and Electrode in the tier.

Can't wait to play some more before you guys boot him out of here lol
 
IMG_3848.png
Cetitan is one of the most threatening Pokémon in the tier single-handedly making hail a viable team style in this tier. Cetitan is also an extremely potent abuser of sticky webs with its belly drum set; with it’s good bulk, thick fat, and powerful priority that hits common scarfers that would otherwise be able to beat it down. Cetitan is an amazing Tera abuser making good use of Tera ground, fairy, ghost, and even ice; to either set up with a defensive tera or hit them even harder with an offensive tera. This guy is probably overpowered but he’s super cool and my favorite Pokémon added to the tier.
IMG_3849.png
Dreadnaw is overpowered on rain and off of it. I don’t need to explain why it’s swift swim set is one of the factors that currently makes rain so unbearable and it’s shell smash set off of rain is still a menace and is extremely hard to stop. So get rid of him please .
IMG_3850.png
This mon is the best Oricorio form and it’s extremely powerful on HO, grassy terrain, and balance. Not sure if he’s overpowered yet but I don’t see this staying a healthy presence in tier for long.
IMG_3851.png
I honestly love Oricorio-G it’s an amazing addition to HO and balance. While less offensively useful than Oricorio-E it does have the useful trait of blocking rapid spin and just like the other Oricorio forms it finds ample set up opportunities especially with mons like choiced fightings or bronzong. It’s a lot easier to pressure than Oricorio-E so probably won’t be ban worthy, at least now.
 
So, I've been using a few different mons in the tier, and I'd like to talk about them. Also, thank god damp rock and drednaw are banned.
:meloetta-pirouette: This is a mon that I've been interested in (and not just because I've been using it in OU). On paper, this should be really disgusting, 128 attack and 128 speed is insane for the tier. And in practice, its pretty good. I've been using a tera blast poison set, which has been alright. If given the opportunity, it can blast through teams that are even a bit weakened. I probably need to refine the set, but so far its pretty good and I would keep an eye on it.
:oricorio sensu: Not much to say, just a pretty good mon. Using it as a defogger, and as a potential sweeper, it always seemed to do its job.
:virizion: Been loving this mon. It's 108 speed stat is so good in this tier. I was using heracross beforehand, and while it was alright, it always felt like it didn't have enough speed. Virizion fixed that. I've personally been using a 3 attacks + synthesis set which leverages virizions good special bulk with the ability to hit most of the tier for neutral damage. Pretty great mon for the tier.
:orthworm: Don't sleep on this mon. It's the physically bulkiest steel type in the tier (bastiodon doesn't count) and despite being ZU, still fits in just fine. A set of id, bp, heavy slam and stealth rocks with tera ghost can handle a lot of threats, especially threatening physical sweepers. It can even go for an endgame sweep, with heavy slam destroying the fairy types of the tier.
:rotom heat: Love this mon, its such a good glue mon. It can deal impressive damage with overheat or volt switch, can cripple physical attackers with will-o-wisp or can weaken attackers with pain split. It feels like it always contributes something to the match.
:gastrodon: Another great glue mon. With investment, it can hit pretty hard and still has the bulk to take many hits. I've been using a recover, stabs and ice beam moveset, which not much wants to switch in to. Storm drain also helps dealing with water types and can make it a sweeper at times. Also completely screws over lanturn, I guess.
 

LBN

is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UPL Champion
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cmon brother. You coulda said "just use waterbull lol" and it'd be better reasoning than what you actually gave bffr. The other 2 dnb votes from what i can tell voted dnb because "same reasoning" which was because of the rain that is no longer in the tier is holding it back. yeah alright man. If ya'll were too lazy to not write a paragraph i'd respect it more lmao, but please dont let us rock with "same reasonings" anymore from council force them to write paragraphs its like 5 paragraphs tops come on now
 
I have to agree that the 3 dnb votes on Cetitan all have unacceptable reasoning and when they make a difference like that it's kinda not OK. 2 of the dnb votes cited "same reasoning" and the prior reasoning had been based on rain which was banned in the slate, while the other dnb vote primarily cites a playstyle that isn't the main reason people wanted Cetitan banned and named 2 mons that lose to the standard Cetitan set. I think there should be room to reconsider this action based on this.
 
nah cetitan is fun using it but without a doubt the three people who voted dnb made a bad decision. rain is a non factor now that damp rock is gone so the two people who used there previous reasons are goofy, then the other person said heatom and bronzong are counters? no they aren’t they both lose to the standard knock off version and if you are using earthquake all you need is one icicle crash flinch and you beat them. water tauros is decent into it but it’s definitely not a check either. it’s not only broken on hail either. if this thing gets any chance to set up it tears through the tier with ease. love this dude but hopefully next week council revotes because cetitan is uncompetitive.
 

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