Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

If your intention is to use Proto Speed to break offense, I recommend not sticking to Raging Fury.
Accepting the damage recoil, which is more consistent than losing against a glue Great Tusk that maybe takes Proto Defense and uses Tera Water. Just have some hazard control.
If your intention is to break stall and slow balance things, live without fear of finding a random Heatran and go Raging Fury to open craters and with Heat Crash for later cleaning.
Sometimes we just want to put some brain cells to rest and click a button, but the Tera meta won't allow us.
Just use rampardos lmao.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 420-496 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Rampardos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 127-149 (34.2 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Rampardos Head Smash vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 175-207 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Just use rampardos lmao.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 420-496 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Rampardos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 127-149 (34.2 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Rock Rampardos Head Smash vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 175-207 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Insane calcs, but I have skill-issues with 80% acc moves.
 
:hoopa_unbound:
Hoopa-Unbound @ Black Glasses
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely/Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Hyperspace Fury

- Psychic Noise / Taunt
- Destiny Bond / Taunt / Ice Punch / Gunk Shot / Drain Punch

Regular Stall tend to rely on Tera for Dark resistance (except Clefable). This guy can be exploited a little.
He has 2 useful Dark STAB that don't miss with 160 base Atk, one takes away items and the other Ignores Protect / Subs. Psychic Noise actively blocks healing and Hoopa-U can sacrifice itself if it has done enough or has extra coverage.

Problem; Other Dark Types exist, Kingambit brutal power and Taunt Roaring Moon, but Hoopa-U has an exploitable niche from the beginning, doesn't rely on a single use of Booster Energy and doesn't need to wait for its 5 allies to faint.
Edit: This aberration, Uber in Gen 6, was in RU until a few days ago.
 
:hoopa_unbound:
Hoopa-Unbound @ Black Glasses
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely/Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Hyperspace Fury

- Psychic Noise / Taunt
- Destiny Bond / Taunt / Ice Punch / Gunk Shot / Drain Punch

Regular Stall tend to rely on Tera for Dark resistance (except Clefable). This guy can be exploited a little.
He has 2 useful Dark STAB that don't miss with 160 base Atk, one takes away items and the other Ignores Protect / Subs. Psychic Noise actively blocks healing and Hoopa-U can sacrifice itself if it has done enough or has extra coverage.

Problem; Other Dark Types exist, Kingambit brutal power and Taunt Roaring Moon, but Hoopa-U has an exploitable niche from the beginning, doesn't rely on a single use of Booster Energy and doesn't need to wait for its 5 allies to faint.
Edit: This aberration, Uber in Gen 6, was in RU until a few days ago.
Maybe you could use wonder room in the last slot. Absolutely shits on dondozo, who now takes massive damage from hyperspace fury.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 316-372 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Plus, now you have a spectacular 130 defense stat.
 
Maybe you could use wonder room in the last slot. Absolutely shits on dondozo, who now takes massive damage from hyperspace fury.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 316-372 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Plus, now you have a spectacular 130 defense stat.
Thats cheesy for sure, although it would be extremely funny and force your opponent to sac something. I can see it working out.
Problem; Other Dark Types exist, Kingambit brutal power and Taunt Roaring Moon, but Hoopa-U has an exploitable niche from the beginning, doesn't rely on a single use of Booster Energy and doesn't need to wait for its 5 allies to faint.
Edit: This aberration, Uber in Gen 6, was in RU until a few days ago.
I agree. Hoopa isn’t even better against stall, since a stored power abuser+tera dark black glasses gambit destroys stall.
What is your Top 5?

:Great Tusk: :Kingambit: :Dragonite: :Slowking-Galar: :Rillaboom:

Some personal preferences here over the outright best and/or most broken, but I believe these 5 are some of the best mons to build teams around or with in the entire tier. It's just a lot of good glue. Gambit, D-nite, and Rillaboom have 3 of the best priority available, which is extremely important for gen 9. I would add Raging Bolt to that after the latest DLC, but it doesn't make the top 5 cut for me. When I'm building a team, I generally start with at least one or two of these five somewhere in there. Stall would obviously be different.

:Iron Valiant: deserves an honorable mention. But it lacks the overall defensive utility of these other mons.

Who’s the most overrated mon in OU?

:Skarmory: or :Iron Boulder:

IMO, Skarmory is just not as good as Corv. And if you want a passive spiker with a ground immunity, use Gliscor. Gliscor can absorb status, too. There is maybe a role compression case for Skarm sometimes with the typing and Whirlwind. But in general, take Corv and/or Gliscor depending on your team's needs. They are better mons.

Iron Boulder belongs in UU or UUBL or whatever lower tier. The only reason why it isn't a clear #1 for me is because I don't think many players are high enough on it to overrate it in the first place. This should drop soon.

:Meowscarada: gets an honorable mention. It avoided this spot purely because something like Tera Fire can be used to make a very reliable attacker on more otherwise more defensive teams. On more offensive teams, I feel there are usually better options except in niche cases. It's useable. But I tend to find it underwhelming.

Who’s the most underrated mon in OU?

:Corviknight: or :Deoxys-Speed:

I find Corviknight to be more useful than Skarmory on average. It has better mixed bulk and can be invested for similar defensive bulk. It's more useful as a pivot, too. So it tends to be less of an outright momentum sink. The Defog is not nearly as useless with Ghold in the tier as some people think because you have U-Turn and teammates. You just need to actually use your head with it this gen. Skarmory has spikes. But there are much better spikers for the tier. The main thing Corviknight lacks is phasing, I guess.

I have done extensive testing with Deoxys-Speed and I still strongly feel that it is excellent. It's not one of these mindless mons where you can't think. And you need to optimize the EVs correctly (like limiting your speed investment) to get the most out of it. But it is very strong, particularly as a mixed attacker. There is also the fact that its speed tier make it a better PP staller than D-Defense. It's just an excellent mon and it is largely underutilized.

Who do you think will rise/drop?

Rise: :Deoxys-Speed: :Iron Moth: :Garganacl: :Ribombee: :Skeledirge:
Drop: :Iron Boulder: :Serperior:

What’s your favorite anti-stall core/set/mon?

:Deoxys-Speed:

Tera Dark Knock Off is just very hard to switch into. Mixed attacking means you can hit dedicated physical or special walls like Dondozo or Blissey with the other attacking type very hard. You can potentially be played around by a good player, but it's a gamble in many cases. Theoretically, there are only a handful of mons that can safely switch into it.

And this is another reason why Corv is better than Skarm. A mixed attacking D-Speed can do about 40-49% with Life Orb Ice Beam. A fully defensively invested Corv will only take about 29-35% from the same special attack, making recovery much more reasonable. This is just one example of Corv just being a better all purpose wall without special defense investment.
My top 5:
:kingambit: :slowking-galar: :dragapult: :great tusk: :ogerpon-wellspring:

Oger is definitely a personal preference. It probably doesn’t deserve a top five, but I just like the set diversity. You can surprise people with superpower, get utility with encore, have insane coverage with playrough or knock, and boost speed with trailblaze. It’s just so fun.

Dragapult is obviously biased (pfp) but it is still very good. It can seriously annoy other top mons with will o and twave, as well as pivot around with uturn and revenge kill common threats with its speed tier. Specs is resurging as a decent breaker since shadow ball is still extremely spammable (ignore Kingambit) and it can pivot on switches.

Kingambit is an amazing wincon and speed control. (Do I need to say anything else?)

Great Tusk is the best form of hazard control in the game, checks a lot of physical threats and can be a good offensive threat with CB on sun and booster speed bulk up on hyper offence.

Gking is an amazing special wall and pivot as well as having fsight to break opposing teams and annoying switch ins with twave. Slow chilly is amazing at getting in breakers as well as replacing opposing weather and supporting ice type teammates like kyurem.

Overrated
:ogerpon-wellspring:
I know I put it in top five, but I’ve said this already. This is NOT worthy of a ban.

Underrated
Agility+Calm Mind :iron crown:
It’s underrated imo. A single agility and calm mind with stored power can punch holes in teams. It is especially good against stall, since with Tera ghost it can force Tera dark on blissey or Tera steel on clod, which will allow gambit to win the game later.

Rise:
:deoxys-speed:
Too many people are spamming terrain HO in UU for this to stay in it for long.

Drop:
:Iron boulder:

Anti-stall core:
I’ve mentioned it. On HO, calm mind agility iron crown and Tera dark black glasses kingambit. If they don’t Tera dark or steel they get steamrolled by crown’s stored powers, if they do they can’t Tera fighting dozo anymore to stop gambit.
 
If your intention is to break stall and slow balance things, live without fear of finding a random Heatran and go Raging Fury to open craters and with Heat Crash for later cleaning.
i personally go with flare blitz over heat crash on the fatshredder set because heat crash does a lot less against dondozo. being locked into raging fury against dozo is bad if the opponent plays it properly (i.e. sacks something to bring it in safely and then clicks curse), so it's better to just do the 50% with flare blitz as they curse and then switch to a dedicated dozo answer as they decide whether to attack or rest
 
This is a so true oomfie moment. I have been loving the utility and role compression it adds while still threatening mons with a ton of chip
Personally, tera fairy has been working well for me. You first trap ghold or glowking, then you tera fairy against something like a moon or tusk and they can't do meaningful damage to you while you destroy them with magma storm, earth power and tera blast. Really fun.
 
I’ve actually tried ditto in OU and it wasn’t that bad on balance.
Can you elaborate on this? I wanted to make Ditto work to fix several different niche team ideas, but I couldn't. Balance as well? I find that very interesting.

I remember in gen 8 in the dynamax meta, Ditto being everywhere was one of the arguments given for just how screwed the meta was. But that canary can't work in this gen 9 OU coal mine because of all the anti-Ditto mechanics that contribute to power creep. Booster Energy and Tera cannot be copied. We got 3 new very bulky Unaware mons that allow more defensive teams to counter setup sweepers. They have access those things in Ubers as well, but there are less outright BE mons there and just generally high power levels.

Booster Energy is perhaps the biggest one since any setup sweeper with the speed boost will be at a distinct advantage against Ditto. Either Ditto will be locked into a single move due to Choice Scarf or simply be slower. How do you get around this problem? Webs or paralyses spreading maybe?
 
Booster Energy is perhaps the biggest one since any setup sweeper with the speed boost will be at a distinct advantage against Ditto. Either Ditto will be locked into a single move due to Choice Scarf or simply be slower. How do you get around this problem? Webs or paralyses spreading maybe?
1711934984363.png

Though for real, really, really fast mons could work. Something like scarf zama (which is a horrible idea, mind you, but that shows how unreliable ditto is) or maybe you could use ditto on rain teams/g-terrain teams to abuse the uber fast mons that are on those teams.
Ditto does necessitate heavy anti-hazard removal, so it could be alright on Defog Corv/Rapid Spin + Magic Bounce Teams.
 
Can you elaborate on this? I wanted to make Ditto work to fix several different niche team ideas, but I couldn't. Balance as well? I find that very interesting.

I remember in gen 8 in the dynamax meta, Ditto being everywhere was one of the arguments given for just how screwed the meta was. But that canary can't work in this gen 9 OU coal mine because of all the anti-Ditto mechanics that contribute to power creep. Booster Energy and Tera cannot be copied. We got 3 new very bulky Unaware mons that allow more defensive teams to counter setup sweepers. They have access those things in Ubers as well, but there are less outright BE mons there and just generally high power levels.

Booster Energy is perhaps the biggest one since any setup sweeper with the speed boost will be at a distinct advantage against Ditto. Either Ditto will be locked into a single move due to Choice Scarf or simply be slower. How do you get around this problem? Webs or paralyses spreading maybe?
I just ran choice scarf and it was a decent form of speed control but yes it did struggle with booster speed users. Mainly it just was good against things like roaring moon.
 
Team I’ve come up with too maximize Dragon Tail Gouging Fire’s potential:

https://pokepast.es/aeef65a5f2e0c380

GF Dragon Tails.

Dragonite cleans up post hazards.

Dengo keeps hazards down.

Gliscor stacks hazards and removes Boots

Dragapult spreads status for extra chip.

Ogerpon-W puts offensive pressure and also removes Boots.
Maybe a more defensive ev spread would be better, since d-tail is negative priority, so speed is much less important.
 
Though for real, really, really fast mons could work. Something like scarf zama (which is a horrible idea, mind you, but that shows how unreliable ditto is) or maybe you could use ditto on rain teams/g-terrain teams to abuse the uber fast mons that are on those teams.
Ditto does necessitate heavy anti-hazard removal, so it could be alright on Defog Corv/Rapid Spin + Magic Bounce Teams.
The biggest problem with Ditto isn't even hazards. It's speed control. You can't outrun a faster BE mon unless you got setup ahead of time. So everybody runs priority. Ditto has to face both those things to try to be relevant. This requires a lot more speed control support.

You probably want something like Webs, Nuzzle Hatt, and maybe Rapid Spin so you don't Defog your own webs. But that's already like half your team. Alternatively, you could just have a grounded Poison for T-spikes and bank on bringing in Ditto minimal times. Since Ditto can bypass Webs, it might be better doing that than fretting about hazards.

I just ran choice scarf and it was a decent form of speed control but yes it did struggle with booster speed users. Mainly it just was good against things like roaring moon.
I see. That just sounds like it would still be too problematic for me. Roaring Moon with BE speed is the bigger problem for most teams that aren't defensive.

Like I had a Psychic Terrain team with a huge Roaring Moon problem, but booster speed would still just result in a speed tie. Same for Iron Boulder, which isn't even good. The problem is Psychic Terrain cancels priority. So for teams that aren't heavily defensive with an Unaware backbone, it's really difficult to find proper speed control without that. Ditto would have been a great option if BE speed didn't essentially invalidate it.

I might just try Rillaboom even though it is counterintuitive. At least then I could run priority without needing to wait for Psychic Terrain to end. It just kinda sucks using a different terrain to fix the team.
 
The biggest problem with Ditto isn't even hazards. It's speed control. You can't outrun a faster BE mon unless you got setup ahead of time. So everybody runs priority. Ditto has to face both those things to try to be relevant. This requires a lot more speed control support.

You probably want something like Webs, Nuzzle Hatt, and maybe Rapid Spin so you don't Defog your own webs. But that's already like half your team. Alternatively, you could just have a grounded Poison for T-spikes and bank on bringing in Ditto minimal times. Since Ditto can bypass Webs, it might be better doing that than fretting about hazards.



I see. That just sounds like it would still be too problematic for me. Roaring Moon with BE speed is the bigger problem for most teams that aren't defensive.

Like I had a Psychic Terrain team with a huge Roaring Moon problem, but booster speed would still just result in a speed tie. Same for Iron Boulder, which isn't even good. The problem is Psychic Terrain cancels priority. So for teams that aren't heavily defensive with an Unaware backbone, it's really difficult to find proper speed control without that. Ditto would have been a great option if BE speed didn't essentially invalidate it.

I might just try Rillaboom even though it is counterintuitive. At least then I could run priority without needing to wait for Psychic Terrain to end. It just kinda sucks using a different terrain to fix the team.
I do wonder how ditto without scarf would work, I know it may seem horrible, and it probably is, but hear me out.
In this metagame, ditto can't outspeed any booster mons that it wants due to booster energy, and that's ditto's whole shtick, outspeeding fast mons by using choice scarf.
So, why not other items? Metal powder and quick powder, which are meant to be ditto's exclusive items are unavaliable in SV, so that rules them out. HDB is an obvious choice, you can switch in way more often. I could also see focus sash working since something like waterpon which likes to setup now is ko'd by its own moves, and if you win the 50/50, you can potentially take out two mons at once. If you really want to speed tie booster mons, booster energy could be used, but that's a bit matchup fishy. Quick claw could be interesting, but that's really gimmicky so I'd rule that out most of the time. Red card could be cool, you switch into the mon and them force them out which sort of replicates the reverse sweep idea ditto usually has, and most likely get a better macthup with a boosted mon. Of course, it is a boosted mon so you could get ko'd but most stab moves on a mon are resisted by its own type (ghost types and dragon types are of course the exception). Custap berry could be interestin, since it basically is focus sash, but it works better with hazards up. Salac berry is basically Custap berry, but permanent, though doesn't work against mons that boost their speed after ditto comes in i.e. quaquaval for example, or some dd/qd users.
So, to recap, the items that could work with ditto are:
Heavy Duty Boots
Focus sash
Booster energy
Quick claw
Red card
Custap berry
Salac berry
This can be divided into ones that work most of the time and ones that are gimmick territory (using ditto of course is a gimmick)
Usable most of the time
Heavy Duty Boots
Focus sash
Red Card
Custap Berry (but this one I wouldn't blink an eye if you said its a gimmick item)
Salac Berry
Gimmick Items
Booster energy
Quick Claw
 
So, to recap, the items that could work with ditto are:
Heavy Duty Boots
Focus sash
Booster energy
Quick claw
Red card
Custap berry
Salac berry
This can be divided into ones that work most of the time and ones that are gimmick territory (using ditto of course is a gimmick)
Usable most of the time
Heavy Duty Boots
Focus sash
Red Card
Custap Berry (but this one I wouldn't blink an eye if you said its a gimmick item)
Salac Berry
Gimmick Items
Booster energy
Quick Claw
Focus Sash is good, but requires hazard support.

HBD is probably bad. Ditto can bypass Webs and it doesn't solve any of its matchup issues. You need something to help the speed or survivability of an incoming setup sweeper attack. HBD won't do enough of the latter. Less hazard chip is nice, but you still likely die to +1 Moon or whatever.

The problem with most of the other items is they require you to live against what is likely a powerful setup sweeper. This is especially true for Salac Berry and Custap Berry, which require specific HP ranges that may be hard to control for. Ditto doesn't change its bad HP stat, so this dips pretty heavily into survivability needed to win head to head matchups in this way. Like Red Card is maybe a decent emergency option for losing a speed tie, but again, it only activates if you live after that.

Quick Claw is far less likely to procc than you would want. I do actually love Quick Claw, but Ditto needs something it can rely on. Most of these items past FS and HBD are unreliable. Ditto already has an unreliability problem in this meta.

Booster Energy doesn't work with Ditto since it doesn't have one of the two abilities required. I already went on a whole tangent about how BE's existence was bad for it. If it could match it, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Out of all these, Focus Sash is probably the only one I would try on Ditto specifically.

I think you might be better with like Grassy Seed to increase survivability against physical setup sweepers or something. And I wouldn't try other seeds because the physical sweepers are more common and Grassy Terrain is like the only currently viable one. Just pack another answer for Volc, I guess. I think Volc probably 1v1s Ditto anyways.
 
Focus Sash is good, but requires hazard support.

HBD is probably bad. Ditto can bypass Webs and it doesn't solve any of its matchup issues. You need something to help the speed or survivability of an incoming setup sweeper attack. HBD won't do enough of the latter. Less hazard chip is nice, but you still likely die to +1 Moon or whatever.

The problem with most of the other items is they require you to live against what is likely a powerful setup sweeper. This is especially true for Salac Berry and Custap Berry, which require specific HP ranges that may be hard to control for. Ditto doesn't change its bad HP stat, so this dips pretty heavily into survivability needed to win head to head matchups in this way. Like Red Card is maybe a decent emergency option for losing a speed tie, but again, it only activates if you live after that.

Quick Claw is far less likely to procc than you would want. I do actually love Quick Claw, but Ditto needs something it can rely on. Most of these items past FS and HBD are unreliable. Ditto already has an unreliability problem in this meta.

Booster Energy doesn't work with Ditto since it doesn't have one of the two abilities required. I already went on a whole tangent about how BE's existence was bad for it. If it could match it, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Out of all these, Focus Sash is probably the only one I would try on Ditto specifically.

I think you might be better with like Grassy Seed to increase survivability against physical setup sweepers or something. And I wouldn't try other seeds because the physical sweepers are more common and Grassy Terrain is like the only currently viable one. Just pack another answer for Volc, I guess. I think Volc probably 1v1s Ditto anyways.
I didn't think of grassy seed, that could definitely be good.
HDB is moreso you can come in more often against anything, don't forget ditto has basically infinite pp so any recovery on the opposing team it can use. For example, corv gets pressure used against it. It isn't the best option, but it will be the most consistent option.
Although surviving to proc things could be an issue, a lot of things boost their defense's as well, such as Zama and volc. This means volc will only be a little bit worse defensively against them, and they likely have chip so it would be about even. Against something like moon/gambit, ditto ain't doing shit.
Another thing that really hurts ditto is the prevalence of priority, which means it's speed stat doesn't matter in avoiding hits as much. Maybe it could work on psychic terrain teams with psychic seed or scarf? That solves the priority issue.
 

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