Metagame NP: Stage 10 - I Must Apologise (post #41 Armarouge, Gyarados, Necrozma banned)

[Kiyo]

I agree with a lot of what Lucario has to say on the subject, but overall I tend to agree with Django more.

• Switching into A-Muk's STAB combo without being punished by poison can be difficult, it requires the use of specific type combinations or tera to comfortably switch into with one Pokemon. That being said, we have a good chunk of them that lead to different types of team compositions.
• I think Lucario may be too quick to write off the effectiveness of hazards in keeping Muk at bay just because we finally have some reasonable removal tools. The removal is not as free as it's made out to be and all of the hazard removers can each be pressured in their own way to deter/block defog/spin respectively.
• I think there is an implication in Lucario's post that we need to have specific one-to-one counterplay to pokemon in the metagame, and I simply do not think this is true. You have a team of 6 pokemon and they work dynamically to cover threats together. To hinge an argument on their needing to be a reliable sole counter, a-la Swalot, is reductive and fails to adequately take into context how games of pokemon are actually played.
• Django hits the nail on the head when he talks about having a few tools that can work against Muk, even if they do get worn down over the course of a game, and using these tools effectively by keeping momentum on your side to avoid getting worn down. This is player skill differential. This is what we want to strive for in competitive metagames and is the goal of our tiering philosophy.

To add onto the discussion some, I think Muk is also heavily reliant upon its item to avoid being worn down itself from hazards chip and u-turn. I think this should drive teambuilding decisions such as using Trick on Psychic-type pokemon, incorporating knock off Mew/Meloetta and other Pokemon that can remove Muk's item. This isn't always easy, but when it works it works. Muk is most annoying for me to deal with vs defense because these simple counter-measures become less reliable when the opponent has a mid-ground play like klefki or chansey to potentially take the trick. luckily most of the balance builds you'll see muk on tend to use it as the primary psychic counterplay.

I laddered a ton with a Munkidori team that is arguably rather weak to Muk and faired pretty well against it overall. Tricking the Muk essentially makes it a non-factor and opens up a lot of doors for Slowbro to win games. I also squirmed a bit vs Muk in the early part of game 4 and fell behind quite a bit, if your team isn't prepped well or even if you just don't play accurately you will absolutely fall behind and have to play out of a hole. 1 2 3 4 I had some trouble vs Stories and Ninja because their teams were very well prepared to face Scarf Munkidori and were not entirely reliant on Muk to deal with it. 5 6

 

[sminey]

I think it's great to have a healthy discussion about if defensive mons are healthy or not in the meta, especially when we're seeing stall as a quite powerful archetype. However, I fall into the same line of thinking that a-muk is healthy for the meta, or if not healthy at least not unhealthy. I think the following quote is the fundamental issue for why I disagree with Lucario's argument that a-muk is unhealthy.

I hear what you're saying, use Krookodile, Flygon, or any fast physical breaker that can one shot it, I will! However, that Muk will go back to its trainer and then you will be looking at a Slowbro, Rotom-Heat, Talonflame, or Noivern. Now you're locked into Earthquake and can't do anything or you can set up but fear Will-O-Wisp from Rotom or Talonflame. Next thing you know Muk is back on the field, Knocking you off and spreading even more poison, but this time you have less HP.

This line of thinking is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game is actually played compared to how you put it on paper. For instance, let's say you got krookodile in on a-muk safely. Using Lucario's rationale that had no value because you click eq the super effective move on the a-muk in front of you, they switch into their mon that counters krookodile then you got nothing out of the interaction.

However, in reality this is where I think the core part of pokemon is. Since you know that they likely have to switch out, you can knock off to make progress, you can double to keep momentum, you can get rocks up (which coincidentally if you can keep them up is a great counter to a-muk's sustainability), or if you predict them staying in or they're weak to ground stab you can fire off an earthquake. Then they also have to make a decisionon what they think you'll do, they can knock predicting a double, maybe even drain punch predicting stay in, and more likely have to make a decision into which counter they want to switch into. Then if/when you force that interaction next, you can make a more informed decision based on not only the situation but also the player decisions last time you had the interaction, you can make a more informed decision about what to do this time.

I think that these types of interactions is exactly where the skill in pokemon lies. At least when I think about a healthy metagame these are the types of interactions that I look to maximize and I think a-muk is conducive to these situations, not detrimental.

 

[Stories]

This means that you can switch a Rhyperior, Mudsdale, or Quagsire in to absorb the Knock Off and to hit it back with Earthquake, but they can and will get poisoned while also losing their Leftovers.

games are supposed to end, I think progress making is okay. it's not like he's OHKOing every mon in the tier like Armarouge was.

I beg you, the reader, to give me a viable defensive check to Muk

Krookodile, Milotic, Muk-Alola, Gligar, Klefki, Mudsdale, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Vileplume, anything with Tera Poison.

I think Muk’s defensive prowess is holding a lot of the tier together. That doesn’t inherently mean its balanced (see Rotom-Mow in SS) but the sheer number of Special demons in the tier would completely ruin the metagame without a splashable check. At worst I think Muk is a net positive more than a net negative.

 

[Causter]

Small rambling from a newer, less experienced player to the tier here.

I think it's completely fair to be frustrated by Muk-A's presence in the meta right now, but I don't think frustration towards it makes it an unhealthy Pokemon. Having a 30% chance to poison on very spammable knocks is punishing and absolutely frustrating to deal with, but to me that's the only part of the conversation where you could debate whether or not Muk-A is unhealthy in the tier. I think its longevity tends to be slightly overstated, especially if you're not running the RestTalk set (which I feel like I see more of the Drain/Protect set but maybe that's difference in experiences). It's definitely a splashable Pokemon in teambuilding due to its fantastic ability to both take special hits and force decent progress, but to me it feels like that's where the extent of it lies, not reaching a point where it influences or sways matches heavily. Muk-A to me just is a high/top-tier Pokemon that performs its role better than most other Pokemon in the tier, just with that extra little juice from its ability. Better points have been made above me from people that are far more experienced with the tier, but I figured having this kind of perspective wouldn't hurt?

 

[Bruxish supremacy]

In my opinion muk-alola is a very good to borderline broken Mon.. The switchind mentioned like rhyperior, milotic, quagsire and mudsdale hates switching into a knock+sr(potentially spikes) and a nasty poison. They go from perfect switching to getting worn down really quickly. Thus Is especially noticed on quagsire and milotic will burn through their 8 recovers very quickly..
Another interesting set that I feel is fairly underexplored are the curse sets.. Curse alolan muk can either run curse drain punch or curse rest (usually lefties but sometimes boots or chesto berry are worthwhile. ) curse can completely flip previously bad matchups-Most notably klefki (though it doesn't really like the Para obviously).

However as of now idt a muk needs to get banned.. The mons it tries to switch in like the many special attackers like typhlosion-hisui and special mew variants can dent muk-a fairly hard on switchin (may with hazards support) or devastating burns from the likes of slowbro and typhlosion-hisui. Besides curse a muk is generally walled vtv klefki aswell.. The physical attackers of the tier are also pretty powerful like lycanroc-dusk and mienshao which can break through muk not too terribly..
Overall muk alola is a Mon that I feel like Def needs more time to adjust into the metagame before we call for actions. It a depends on how the metagame decides to adapt to muk alola. If it forces a healthy meta keep it. If it forces dumb stuff like reflext spikes cm draining kiss klefki to counter it ban.

Oh yeah the klefki set I mentioned was something I saw in ladder a few months ago.. It happened that I tried one after remembering that and um yeah.. It's bad but it does beat a muk..so there is that.

 

[Django]

Iron Thorns is still excellent. Seems like it dropped off at the start of this month with all the new toys to play with, but should start shining again now following the recent bans.


Iron Thorns @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Supercell Slam
- Ice Punch
- Tera Blast

Nothing revolutionary here - Tera Grass hits Swampert / Quagsire / Gastrodon, and Ice / Electric provides really good coverage otherwise. With such good bulk it's really easy to get one DD in, then another can be done with Tera usually. Particularly enjoys webs support to stop faster scarf users revenge killing it (LO Galvantula is great, much better than the lead sash imo)

This set is really fun alongside the new drop, Feraligatr. Iron Thorns is great at luring in and killing Quagsire / Swampert / Vaporeon, creating holes for Gatr to sweep. They're both quite slow and can be revenge killed by scarfers, so webs support is still great here.


Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Liquidation
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

Tera Dark is nice to avoid Prankster moves, and power up Crunch vs Slowbro. Ice Punch hits Grass types (Vileplume). Lum Berry is also an option, but the Sheer Force / Life Orb boost gives so much immediate power - depending on the opposing team you can also use Gatr to punch holes for Iron Thorns.

Also interested in SD Scale Shot (maybe Tera Dragon?) Gatr, and there's lots of other coverage options with EQ, and Tera Grass probably also an option.

 

[Heatranator]

This set is really fun alongside the new drop, Feraligatr. Iron Thorns is great at luring in and killing Quagsire / Swampert / Vaporeon, creating holes for Gatr to sweep. They're both quite slow and can be revenge killed by scarfers, so webs support is still great here.


Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Liquidation
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

Tera Dark is nice to avoid Prankster moves, and power up Crunch vs Slowbro. Ice Punch hits Grass types (Vileplume). Lum Berry is also an option, but the Sheer Force / Life Orb boost gives so much immediate power - depending on the opposing team you can also use Gatr to punch holes for Iron Thorns.

Also interested in SD Scale Shot (maybe Tera Dragon?) Gatr, and there's lots of other coverage options with EQ, and Tera Grass probably also an option.

I'm more interested with gatr on web teams with SD, because that mon could clean up games otherwise. Idk how stall is doing in the tier, but gatr looks like it eats it up for breakfast (especially with tera grass trailblaze, which doesn't boost speed though, that's also the issue with scale shit gatr, you can't go sheer force because you don't get the speed boost, it's the secondary effect).

 

[lolbro]

(especially with tera grass trailblaze, which doesn't boost speed though, that's also the issue with scale shit gatr, you can't go sheer force because you don't get the speed boost, it's the secondary effect).

Scale shot works because it's not a chance, like trailblaze is (technically)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nu-2095314305

 

[Heatranator]

Scale shot works because it's not a chance, like trailblaze is (technically)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nu-2095314305

Ah, I see, I didn't know that. Guess scale shot gatr is going to be great
Though it not being affected by sheer force (I know you explained it, but still makes no sense),

 

[LeonLeeds]

I'd like to say thank you Kiyo for that lead infernape set from next best thing, by far my favorite lead in the metagame.

I want to talk about a newer addition...
The loyal 3 has some unnecessarily funny names. Like your telling me there's a mon in the dex called Okidogi?

Anyways, the monkey has some traits that I believe make it pretty exceptional:

• Your steel-type switching in or muk are getting tricked a scarf or specs and become nearly useless teehee oops
• Cringe ground types or any specially defensive umbreon gets poisoned
• Chansey legit walled monke but now it's gone? womp womp (rip Overqwil too)
• People talk about supercell slam buffing electrics, but what about psychic noise? A sound move that also blocks healing is a great gift to the spoon benders
• bulk is passable fo sho

What makes it not top 5 good:

• You may get a trick play right and get your lucky poisons, and in other games you won't
• Low base power moves despite the goated effects feel weak sometimes
• So many mons run scarf it pisses me off stick to dd flygon
• Without trick Munki feels bad

The Set:
Munkidori @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge bomb
- Psychic Noise/Psychic/Psyshock/Focus Blast
- U-Turn
- Trick

 

[Heatranator]

I'm going to quickly talk about a core that I've really been liking lately:
Now, I orginally wanted to see how toxtricity did in NU (It's pretty great, btw, I've been liking psychic noise), and after a few team restructurings, I decided that my flying type could be thundurus. I decided to go with a physical set, and these two combined can destroy their combined checks. Ground types that might wall both can't do much to thundurus, while it knocks off the items. With t-wave, supercell slam, u-turn and knock off, thundy-i can really chip down the opponent (supercell slam does a butt load of damage). Then, toxtricity can come in for the sweep later on, with a modest nature it can annihilate everything in its path. They also have some defensive synergy, as stated before ground types can't do much to thundy-i, but opposing electric types can't do a whole lot to toxtricity. Raikou can try to scald it, but that is a 3hit ko. I have really been liking this offensive core, it can really open up holes in the opposing team.

Also, use assault vest . This mon can tank so many special hits while dealing amazing damage back. With stabs + leaf blade, you counter so many mons. You can add knock, triple axel, aqua cutter or knock off depending on your team.

 

[LeonLeeds]

Who let be PU???!! The blobby slug disrespect is insane
Bro outclasses it as a water type but you can't act like it isn't good. It punishes typical scald spammers and toxic is a great tool versus many bulky guys. Able to wall mons like zone, kilowattrel, noivern, feraligator and more. With tera poison you're able to beat non-rest muks as well as cc Lycan. Partners great with mons like registeel, copper, and dragalge that can cover the hazard slot for the team. Sad part is if you either have to leave out ice beam or surf, one which makes you setup fodder for tera-steel flygon and the latter for tsareena.

For the sake of conversation, what's an underrated setup mon/set you've liked? I enjoy pdef calm mind Raikou with sub (a.k.a Suicune lite).

 

[Diamonds_realm]

Who let be PU???!! The blobby slug disrespect is insane
Bro outclasses it as a water type but you can't act like it isn't good. It punishes typical scald spammers and toxic is a great tool versus many bulky guys. Able to wall mons like zone, kilowattrel, noivern, feraligator and more. With tera poison you're able to beat non-rest muks as well as cc Lycan. Partners great with mons like registeel, copper, and dragalge that can cover the hazard slot for the team. Sad part is if you either have to leave out ice beam or surf, one which makes you setup fodder for tera-steel flygon and the latter for tsareena.

For the sake of conversation, what's an underrated setup mon/set you've liked? I enjoy pdef calm mind Raikou with sub (a.k.a Suicune lite).

toxic would be great, if it had it in the first place

 

[LeonLeeds]

toxic would be great, if it had it in the first place

My bad, I jump around generations too much. I guess you could replace that with amnesia/acid armor/mirror coat/spikes/stealth rock but damn that stinks. Can't even use yawn either.

 

[Rabia]

I'll talk about Gastrodon real quick and why it's not really used much now:

Slowbro is everywhere, and it's just 10x better than every other Water-type. Being immune to Water isn't actually that huge a boon in this metagame compared to if Gastrodon had been in the pre-DLC2 metagame; Inteleon isn't used much anymore, and Basculegion is handled fine by resistances anyway. From there, we can look at other Ground-types and pretty cleanly see they offer more than Gastrodon. Krookodile's one of the hardest Pokemon to switch around in the tier and compresses a lot of defensive use into one slot, Flygon remains great at a plethora of roles, Rhyperior is a great quasi-Steel-type that enables offensive builds, and Swampert is just a bit better of a catch-all Water / Ground Pokemon because it's less exploitable.

This latter point is probably the biggest issue, though: exploitability. Gastrodon is really passive and reliant on Sludge Bomb to bother its switch-ins. This isn't the worst thing ever, but it does make it one-dimensional and easy to gameplan against. I'd also wager that Gastrodon simply isn't ever the right pick on any one specific archetype. As in, it's not got one build that it defines like its competition, and it's not so splashable that this issue doesn't matter. Balance builds will likely default to some combination of Slowbro + Krookodile/Flygon, offensive builds will throw Stealth Rock on a Choice Scarf Krookodile/Flygon or run Rhyperior, and bulkier builds will run Slowbro or, if they're more bulky offense, Swampert for its slow pivot.

 

[Shengineer]

Let's talk more about Slowbro: is he totally chill, broken, or unhealthy in the meta? Especially with Calm Mind, Bro feels almost too consistent at walling, scalding, and setting up for a sweep all at the same time. Most frustrating for balance and offense teams alike is that he counters the usual strategies of chipping down walls using breakers or hazards. If he's not 100% dead, all it takes is a couple of switches and you've lost all progress against him. We've seen him dominating in NU Seasonal too, and while he is not without counterplay it also feels like he gatekeeps a lot of mons from the tier because you should 'just use Slowbro' instead.

On the flip side, imagine a world where Slowbro is banned. Would the meta be even more fragile and chaotic without this trusty dependable wall? Would everything devolve into a SPYDER mirror match? ...Probably not, but I feel like the consequences of a Slowbro ban would considerably reshape the tier. Whether that's for the better or worse, I have no clue man.

 

[PKQ]

Let's talk more about Slowbro: is he totally chill, broken, or unhealthy in the meta? Especially with Calm Mind, Bro feels almost too consistent at walling, scalding, and setting up for a sweep all at the same time. Most frustrating for balance and offense teams alike is that he counters the usual strategies of chipping down walls using breakers or hazards. If he's not 100% dead, all it takes is a couple of switches and you've lost all progress against him. We've seen him dominating in NU Seasonal too, and while he is not without counterplay it also feels like he gatekeeps a lot of mons from the tier because you should 'just use Slowbro' instead.

On the flip side, imagine a world where Slowbro is banned. Would the meta be even more fragile and chaotic without this trusty dependable wall? Would everything devolve into a SPYDER mirror match? ...Probably not, but I feel like the consequences of a Slowbro ban would considerably reshape the tier. Whether that's for the better or worse, I have no clue man.

I would love to give my two cents on this tbh. I think Slowbro as a Pokemon is fine; I think it breaks the meta, or in this case, what makes it unhealthy is its ability Regenerator. Since everyone is running defensive sets and this Pokemon is naturally bulky, it doesn't lose that much when you switch it to scout or just take hits. If you run a defensive core, you effectively made Slowbro hard to beat, especially with Terra Fairy or Poison/Steel. At this point, counter Slowbro becomes a team effort more than an individual effort. Granted, some Pokemon can counter Slowbro, but besides Muk-Alola and maybe Tsareena, Porygon-Z, and Magnezone, you are making your team weaker using other Pokemon. On top of that, despite Slowbro's popularity and usage, you still don't see that many Porygon-X and Magnezone on teams. But let's say you have a game plan for Slowbro with all your Pokemon you have to counter; the build around Slowbro is so easy its fucking ridiculous. To counter your strategy to stop Slowbro, you just need a switch in to counter your Slowbro counter, and your opponent is back on top. Granted, I am saying all of this with Calm Mind. If you have Calm Mind ngl, the gave is halfway finished for you before it even starts. I think this Pokemon gatekeeps a lot of Pokemon because it forces the meta to revolve around it. Lycanroc-Dusk is S rank viability, and for Lycanroc-Dusk to get the edge on Slowbro, it needs to run Crunch and Iron Head, but if they Terra Poison, you have Psychic Fang, but you need Life Orb, so the damage can matter. It's just too many games with this Pokemon that I am not ready for tbh. If this Pokemon were banned, the meta would be shaken up, which might be unrecognizable.

https://pokepast.es/4f46744c9930b484

I made this team around Slowbro for jokes because I like using HO, and I was surprised at how effective this team is. Granted, I think I suck a team building. If some of the greater players in this meta made a team dedicated to Slowbro, I think they would do better for me. I have 1500+ Elo using this team on two accounts, and that is when I knew Slowbro was crazy.

Final verdict I think this Pokemon needs to be ban because of the demand it draws upon but I don't think this Pokemon will ever get ban. Even if we suspect test it, I think everyone will vote not to ban it. The best solution is to ban its ability, but you might as well ban the Pokemon at that point. Also, sorry if my grammar is bad.

 

[Heatranator]

The best solution is to ban its ability, but you might as well ban the Pokemon at that point

While I do agree that slowbro should be banned because unlike any mon, it feels like you have to specifically spec mons out in order to deal with it specifically, otherwise it will wall your whole team, I think banning regen is the wrong way to go. Not only would this affect the lower tiers by nerfing glowbro and klawf (though klawf probably isn't too good in ZU, but idk about it exactly), but two just good mons in mienfoo and reun would be nerfed hard. Reun does commonly run regen at 57%, so it would be nerfed quite a lot. It could however pivot over to magic guard, which is still good so it could still function. Mein on the other hand, would basically be destroyed in the process. Regen is a huge part of its gameplan, as it constantly getting health back means LO and chip can't wear it down that much. It would go from a great mon, to a really middling mon.
I doubt people would ban it, but if we are going to target any part of slowbro, it's the mon we should go for.

 

[Bruxish supremacy]

While I do agree that slowbro should be banned because unlike any mon, it feels like you have to specifically spec mons out in order to deal with it specifically, otherwise it will wall your whole team, I think banning regen is the wrong way to go. Not only would this affect the lower tiers by nerfing glowbro and klawf (though klawf probably isn't too good in ZU, but idk about it exactly), but two just good mons in mienfoo and reun would be nerfed hard. Reun does commonly run regen at 57%, so it would be nerfed quite a lot. It could however pivot over to magic guard, which is still good so it could still function. Mein on the other hand, would basically be destroyed in the process. Regen is a huge part of its gameplan, as it constantly getting health back means LO and chip can't wear it down that much. It would go from a great mon, to a really middling mon.
I doubt people would ban it, but if we are going to target any part of slowbro, it's the mon we should go for.

This arguement makes no sense tbh. Blaziken is probably an OK PU mon and espathra is a barely decent PU/NU mon. So if we banned speed boost they would most definitly be fine here. The only other mons with it legal in UU and below are yanmega,flittle,yanma,torchic,,cumbusken. Does this mean we should unban Speed boost? No.
PS: The guy was supporting to ban slowbro over Regen is what I could understand from his tone. I might be mistaken tho correct me if I am wrong ofcourse.

Have a happy day :)

 

[Rabia]

We will not be banning Regenerator. I don't want to see anymore discussion about doing so.

 

[Be13costa]

It's exactly the same discussion as GBrow (now with the grounds it's only an afterthought) after quick claw was banned. A Regen wall with good defensive typing will be great in any tier it's in.

Slowbro is meta warping for sure but I don't think it promotes a toxic playstyle neither invalidates any playstyle. We can still achieve tour success and ladder high positions with many different teams that do well against or with him.

Can you not consider it when building? No you can't.
Probably the worst part of is that it is a psychic mon that punish Koff with helmet, switch and than it can wall Koff spam. That in most cases is the used dark atk.
Because ghost, grass, electric and bug arant that common it end up seemingly even more immortal in the tier.

The important part I think it holds more of the tier together than anything. Flaygon, Mienshao, LycanrockD, Gator, Cloyster and even krook after the first Koff switch get walled by it.

Yeah there are other Def+ walls plume, avalugg, some perts, talonflame with wisp roost... But all lack the capability to go on the long run. Volt-Turn teams will destroy balance even more, HO will get more value. And with the rise of those playstyles people will even try hard stall more. Balance is based on it.

I might be seeing the wrong way, but is a necessary evil to the tier.

 

[Pokeslice]

I just got close to 80 games in for the first time in a while, so I wanted to go ahead and lay out my thoughts on some of the stuff that I was seeing or using. The meta itself is interesting and I think it has a ton of unexplored options to mess with, and I hope to see a lot of that reflected in NUPL next week!

- I feel like I don't need to beat the dead horse here, but I want to anyways. This Pokemon both holds together and breaks the tier at the same time. What a menace. Calm Mind sets are a ridiculous wincon and it feels like it can eat hits from anything using a physical attack. I'm not sure how healthy this mon will be in the long run, but we also sort of need it. I think the obvious solution is to ban Regenerator Rabia

- This is a top 3 Pokemon in the metagame right now, and in my eyes, S tier. The STAB combination, especially when one of those moves in Knock Off, is extremely difficult to switch into in this meta and it provides a ton of great traits/resistances for any sort of team composition. Top tier progress maker, rocker, and breaker.

- I know a lot of people don't really get the hype on this Pokemon, but I really love Munkidori. I find its power and speed tier to be really nice for this metagame and it provides a lot of nice defensive utility with its typing into Pokemon such as Vileplume or a stray Close Combat. I've been using a boots set with Tera Blast Ground that Phantomistix passed me and I've been pleasantly surprised. It's an underrated and threatening pivot that everyone should try out a bit more. Just don't use Scarf.

/ - Rabia passed me a Hail team a few hours ago that I've been using and I've realized how good Hail can be in this metagame, especially with how much offense there is around the tier. The defense boost of Snow and the speed boost both make Cetitan a terrifying menace to deal with, especially when you remember that +6 Tera Ground EQ does 101 min to Slowbro. This archetype is definitely viable and can probably be further messed with.