Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Heatranator]

I'm convinced many people just don't use D-Speed correctly. I'm also guessing many sets are also built a bit inefficiently because the typical recommended full speed invested is wrong. You simply can't count on D-Speed as your form of speed control because of the boosted metagame. But mons like Pult and Zama are in somewhat similar situations with their speed tier. D-Speed is faster than both with no speed EVs and only a + speed nature, freeing up all your EVs for elsewhere.

On the other hand, max speed + nature D-speed doesn't even outspeed Jolly or Timid booster speed Iron Treads or Scarf Enamorus. You aren't going to outrun most relevant BE or Scarf mons even with full investment. So why bother? IMO, there's really no need to worry about the boosted metagame with it. When I run an attacking set, I go 252 EVs in Atk and SpAtk with only a + speed nature. No speed EVs. Hazard leads likely also run a + speed nature and get away with minimal speed EVs compared to maxing it out like most recommended sets do. It is simply a waste. You could run more bulk and/or power EVs. It would be a lot more efficient to let its teammates worry about the boosted metagame like most players do with Pult.



Problem solved? How? Tusk loses to Tera Flying Acrobatics. So can Zama. Kingambit loses to EQ coverage and no Tera or Tera Fairy since Sucker Punch is resisted. Now that I think of it, Tusk also loses to Tera Fairy. Zama is hit super effectively by Fairy Tera Blast, and depending on Moon's boosts and if it is Zama's first time in or not, it can be vulnerable to it. Problem not solved. It's highly situational at best.

And if you think you can solve it with a Tera for Tusk, Zama, or Gambit, you had better deal enough damage in return that first Tera turn. Otherwise, you'll be vulnerable to getting KO'd by different Moon coverage and not stop it.

I would actually say go 152+ because that outspeeds +1 kyurem, which can stop a dd or scarf set (which is hella underrated rn) from getting out of control, or if you don't care about kyurem, 104+ because that outspeeds scarf lando-t and +1 gouging.
While you are correct that it outspeeds everything, Deo-S should be used to outspeed some slower +1 mons, which can be a lot more devestating. With the first ev spread, you can go 176/180 evs and the second ev spread you can go 200/204, which is still plenty powerful.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

as for drops, i don't know what could drop to UU besides barraskewda. iron boulder could maybe drop but i don't doubt it barely staying OU for another month, same with serperior. i also haven't really been seeing meowscarada on ladder lately so i'm not sure if that'll stay in OU

Friendly reminder to give UU Iron Treads again s'il vous plait merci :) In all seriousness, since Arch left and rain has become a lot less common, has Iron Treads been seeing any use? I haven't played OU for a bit, so I don't actually know its status.

 

[Bold School]

I would actually say go 152+ because that outspeeds +1 kyurem, which can stop a dd or scarf set (which is hella underrated rn) from getting out of control, or if you don't care about kyurem, 104+ because that outspeeds scarf lando-t and +1 gouging.
While you are correct that it outspeeds everything, Deo-S should be used to outspeed some slower +1 mons, which can be a lot more devestating. With the first ev spread, you can go 176/180 evs and the second ev spread you can go 200/204, which is still plenty powerful.

This likely doesn't work for the mixed attacking set I run. But it would probably work for other sets. The main thing is I haven't seen much Scarf Lando because it's usually been other sets like Rocky Helmet. And the way I counter Kyurem or the boosted meta in general, I don't think it would be that important a benchmark on most of my teams. But +1 Gouging Fire would be a very important benchmark for me.

I have done a lot of damage calcs with D-Speed, but most of those assumed higher EV investment. I haven't rigorously checked the tier to see how many EVs you could give up from special attack or attack and still be as effective. You could maybe iron that out to be more efficient for the tier, but I find D-Speed really needs a lot of power for the full attacker sets. You might need less from the other sets.

 

[Heatranator]

This likely doesn't work for the mixed attacking set I run. But it would probably work for other sets. The main thing is I haven't seen much Scarf Lando because it's usually been other sets like Rocky Helmet. And the way I count Kyurem or the boosted meta in general, I don't think it would be that important a benchmark on most of my teams. But +1 Gouging Fire would be a very important benchmark for me.

I have done a lot of damage calcs with D-Speed, but most of those assumed higher EV investment. I haven't rigorously checked the tier to see how many EVs you could give up from special attack or attack and still be as effective. You could maybe iron that out to be more efficient for the tier, but I find D-Speed really needs a lot of power for the full attacker sets. You might need less from the other sets.

I did some calcs, and 200 attack/204 sp.Attack is still quite enough to deal high damage.
204 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 328-387 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 341-403 (91.9 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
With ice beam, you still do massive damage to tusk, so that still works.
200 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 250-296 (63.4 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 263-309 (66.7 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Knock off is also a 2hit ko on glowking, so that would still work.
200 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 286-338 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 299-354 (106.4 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Darkrai is still ko'd by superpower.
200 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gholdengo: 166-198 (43.9 - 52.3%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gholdengo: 174-205 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
Still can't deal with ghold lmao.
From these calcs, it's about 3%-5% damage diference, which isn't too much. From the calcs I could see, it isn't really worth it to go full ev's in both, because you still are dealing great damage. Maybe there are a few different calcs that would show where the investment would matter, but from these calcs, they still work. The other ev spread is about 2%-6% less than the 200/204, but I think that's cutting it a bit close. I would say do 200/204, since that is the best balance between offense and speed.

 

[weirdo faye]

Problem solved? How? Tusk loses to Tera Flying Acrobatics. So can Zama. Kingambit loses to EQ coverage and no Tera or Tera Fairy since Sucker Punch is resisted. Now that I think of it, Tusk also loses to Tera Fairy. Zama is hit super effectively by Fairy Tera Blast, and depending on Moon's boosts and if it is Zama's first time in or not, it can be vulnerable to it. Problem not solved. It's highly situational at best.

And if you think you can solve it with a Tera for Tusk, Zama, or Gambit, you had better deal enough damage in return that first Tera turn. Otherwise, you'll be vulnerable to getting KO'd by different Moon coverage and not stop it.

"you could instead run taunt to shut down setup attempts from these physical walls, but then you've likely put yourself in a very bad position against kingambit."

u know how to read? weak to kingambit not weak to roaring moon another selective reader
edit: nvm my bad bro, next time ill run booster energy on my kingambit so it can tera fly a greattusk and ohko it poggers! duly noted!

 

[Heatranator]

"you could instead run taunt to shut down setup attempts from these physical walls, but then you've likely put yourself in a very bad position against kingambit."

u know how to read? weak to kingambit not weak to roaring moon another selective reader
edit: nvm my bad bro, next time ill run booster energy on my kingambit so it can tera fly a greattusk and ohko it poggers! duly noted!

The way you worded it was weird, I see now what you meant, but the rest of the post was talking about moon, so the line of the thinking was that you are saying that "put zamazenta, tusk, kingambit (roaring moon) problem solved" instead of "put zamazenta, tusk now your kingambit problem solved". I had to do a double take because I thought you were talking about moon too, that's why. The post that you were referring to was also mainly talking about moon, with a tiny bit about gambit in it.

 

[weirdo faye]

yes, if u are weak to kingambit cos of your roaring moon running taunt, just pack a tusk or zamazenta :>

 

[tommytt22]

I'm sure it isnt lost on anyone how well primarina has been performing this generation. I was particularly gobsmacked at how well it does into balance teams, the psychic noise/ liquid voice combination is astonishing. here's a fun replay at about 1600 where volc gets to +3 but unfortunately its a tera dragon set so primarina proceeds to get +6 and come out with nearly full health thanks to draining kiss.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2088653894-hf7n7dgrzbijhoea4s3ubgwy3yxaw4xpw

This team was testing out scarf flamigo which is fantastic in its own way but thats for another post. i slapped primarina on as a psuedo landorus switch in/ weavile/ zama/ gouging check but most games it gets a calm mind then 2+ kills. tera steel farms glowking and you only take about half from wogres ivy cudgel. It is currently the highest rank starter pokemon on the VR and i could definitely see it move to A+ the way its going. I may do a little spotlight later if i have time with its best sets and cores

 

[viivian]

Until it tera fairys and uses tera blast (finch used a lum set with that moveset in SPL) or it uses brick break.
Honestly, I think moon has a lot of room to explore, basically the only set it has is booster acrobatics, which while amazing, is predictable, with the only difference being taunt vs e-quake. Mark my words, once people experiment with moon, people will see the light (or maybe the experimentation will be a bust and I will be proven extremely wrong, but who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

TB fairy sets are usually only seen on sun teams since you'd otherwise prefer tera flying w/ acrobatics on any other team. brick break is also a fairly uncommon option outside of terrain offenses. so i'd imagine the most innovative you're gonna get is people running substitute or roost in the last slot over EQ or taunt

 

[Heatranator]

TB fairy sets are usually only seen on sun teams since you'd otherwise prefer tera flying w/ acrobatics on any other team. brick break is also a fairly uncommon option outside of terrain offenses. so i'd imagine the most innovative you're gonna get is people running substitute or roost in the last slot over EQ or taunt

Yeah, but the main thing is that they are uncommon, you can abuse that so much. Even booster energy isn't a necessary thing. I've used a grassy seed, roost tera fairy set which can brutalise teams that rely on chipping moon down into priority range.
Honestly, lefties moon could be cool.
Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roaring Moon: 158-186 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roaring Moon: 354-416 (85.5 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roaring Moon: 330-390 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Roaring Moon: 268-316 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Roaring Moon: 352-420 (85 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I mean, at least it's a cool idea. Probably not going to work in practice, but living most super effective hits is cool. Even a quad effective move isn't koing it from full.

 

[tommytt22]

Yeah, but the main thing is that they are uncommon, you can abuse that so much. Even booster energy isn't a necessary thing. I've used a grassy seed, roost tera fairy set which can brutalise teams that rely on chipping moon down into priority range.
Honestly, lefties moon could be cool.
Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roaring Moon: 158-186 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roaring Moon: 354-416 (85.5 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roaring Moon: 330-390 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Roaring Moon: 268-316 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Roaring Moon: 352-420 (85 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I mean, at least it's a cool idea. Probably not going to work in practice, but living most super effective hits is cool. Even a quad effective move isn't koing it from full.

Lure sets are great but they need to be optimised. Running max defense impish on roaring moon is a terrible idea. Lure sets are gimmicks by nature but they have the chance to run away with the game if used properly. You need to make a decision on what you're luring then use moon's great speed stat to creep that. For example, jolly 0 spd is enough to hit 301, conveniently faster than Max tusk. Jolly 184 spd is enough for 352 so you outspeed ogerpon. Alternatively 32 spd neutral nature is enough to outspeed dragapult after +1. A set like this probably suits lum Berry and you'll want to run brick break for gambit over protect. With some changes like that I could see it working, you aren't weak to late game priority like sucker punch or ice shard, and aren't dependant on booster.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

I doubt Wogerpon will get enough support to get banned, if Kyurem and GG were not, she won’t either since she is less problematic.

Anyway, the month is almost over, what changes do you expect in the tier? Who do you expect to drop and who do you expect to rise?

Iron Boulder and Serperior definitely dropping. Sad to see they fell off

 

[cromatkastar]

Overturning the result of a community suspect with any sort of alternative tiering mechanism is entirely off the table. This would be a misuse (abuse) of power.

 

[Duck Chris]

This weekend in SV OU
Tournaments were popping this weekend with the first week of Smogon Tour and the second last (third last actually) week of Smogon Premier League, along with the quarterfinal round of OST.

Smogon Tour kicked off with three live tours showcasing the best in unpredictable best of 1 teambuilding.
Friday won by Mimikyu Stardust
main team - Replay
- Replay
Pretty cool team here with CB Dragapult and AV Iron Crown volt turn core finishing off with Tera Ghost Kingambit, a rising option to handle low kick and other common counter moves.
Saturday won by ChrisPBacon
main team - Replay
- Replay
These teams are pretty standard in current meta at least in the concept of spreading status and having one strong wallbreaker in Taunt + Fire Spin Volcanion. Weavile is a pretty neat pick that does well against some trends like Skeledirge Gliscor and Ogerpon but loses to Zamazenta, which means the rest of the team has to cover it with stuff like Landorus and Clefable.
Sunday won by Shoot
- Replay
- Replay
This is what Tour is all about: a ladder hero storming through the bracket with some old fashioned hyper offense while his friends spam the chat. At this point these are pretty standard HO for the meta but if it aint broke don't fix it.

In OST
Antonazz beat Rubyblood in 2 games with some fun bulky offenses. I particularly like the use of Knock Off on Darkrai to punish special wall switch ins while actually not being too bad for damage after stab.
- Replay
- Replay
Storm Zone kept it simple with some very standard offenses to win in 3 vs Twixtry. The second team was the most interesting to me with 4 out of the six members having some kind of pivot move, allowing for a lot of consistent pressure vs Twixtry's bulkier team.
- Replay
- Replay
- Replay
DugZa beat Maxouille in two bulky offense vs. balance battles. Dug seems to have been very prepared for fat teams, with annoying options like Garganacl and Psychic Noise Primarina able to break through those persistent walls.
- Replay
- Replay
Thiago Nunes shouted out their builder after winning 2-0 vs zS and it's not hard to see why. These teams all contain perfectly viable pokemon but I would definitely not say they are standard builds. Landorus-T hyper offense with raw Iron Boulder and a random Meowscarada into Quaquaval set up spam HO? Someone cooked here
- Replay
- Replay

In SPL
I'd advise checking out the SPL discussion thread for a full recap but I'll post one game here as it was the deciding game for one of the matchups and came down to the absolute wire.
Luispeikou vs Xavgb

 

[Bold School]

"you could instead run taunt to shut down setup attempts from these physical walls, but then you've likely put yourself in a very bad position against kingambit."

u know how to read? weak to kingambit not weak to roaring moon another selective reader
edit: nvm my bad bro, next time ill run booster energy on my kingambit so it can tera fly a greattusk and ohko it poggers! duly noted!
View attachment 619034

Vivian, who you were responding to, started their post with this:

"as scary as it is, my main problem with roaring moon is that there are multiple different ways to play around it and it's very hard to account for all of them when teambuilding."

And ended with this:

"sorry for the long ass paragraph but TLDR: roaring moon is dumb but i don't think it stands out as banworthy anymore"

You responded to them with this:

"Pack a tusk or zamazenta kingambit problem solved, anyway fair opinion. U can say moon has counterplay but i personally think rmoon is more of a fast powerful stall or balance breaker that's still useful vs other offense that helps to open the door for other sweepers on ho teams while secondarily being a sweeper that has the chance to sweep itself in right circumstance, I think most teams that use it know that... still soo good anyways"

I read this multiple times further. The only time you mentioned Kingambit in that post was the first sentence, which certainly looks like you are talking about Roaring Moon counters. After reading Vivian's initial post and not yours, I did eventually find this section:

"if you run the standard 3A w/ DD set then it becomes very easy for common physical walls to come in, take a knock off, set up an ID/bulk up/curse/etc. then heal off the damage the following turn, meaning your roaring moon is now forced to switch out and you lose your protosynthesis boost. you could instead run taunt to shut down setup attempts from these physical walls, but then you've likely put yourself in a very bad position against kingambit."

Kingambit was also mentioned only here in the post you quoted, and nowhere else in said post, while Roaring Moon was mentioned multiple other times in that post as well.

After spending way too much time looking at all this again, and hearing your complaints, I did eventually get what you were saying. Sort of. The wording is still very strange. Not sure if English isn't your first language or not, but it wasn't clear to a native English speaker what you were responding to by what you wrote.

If what you say you meant now is true, then I don't understand why you didn't just cut out everything except the part you were actually responding to.

 

[Shoot]

- Replay
- Replay
This is what Tour is all about: a ladder hero storming through the bracket with some old fashioned hyper offense while his friends spam the chat. At this point these are pretty standard HO for the meta but if it aint broke don't fix it.

Brazilians being brazilians shouldn't be a new thing.

 

[Venuesaur]

This weekend in SV OU
Tournaments were popping this weekend with the first week of Smogon Tour and the second last (third last actually) week of Smogon Premier League, along with the quarterfinal round of OST.

Smogon Tour kicked off with three live tours showcasing the best in unpredictable best of 1 teambuilding.
Friday won by Mimikyu Stardust
main team - Replay
- Replay
Pretty cool team here with CB Dragapult and AV Iron Crown volt turn core finishing off with Tera Ghost Kingambit, a rising option to handle low kick and other common counter moves.
Saturday won by ChrisPBacon
main team - Replay
- Replay
These teams are pretty standard in current meta at least in the concept of spreading status and having one strong wallbreaker in Taunt + Fire Spin Volcanion. Weavile is a pretty neat pick that does well against some trends like Skeledirge Gliscor and Ogerpon but loses to Zamazenta, which means the rest of the team has to cover it with stuff like Landorus and Clefable.
Sunday won by Shoot
- Replay
- Replay
This is what Tour is all about: a ladder hero storming through the bracket with some old fashioned hyper offense while his friends spam the chat. At this point these are pretty standard HO for the meta but if it aint broke don't fix it.

In OST
Antonazz beat Rubyblood in 2 games with some fun bulky offenses. I particularly like the use of Knock Off on Darkrai to punish special wall switch ins while actually not being too bad for damage after stab.
- Replay
- Replay
Storm Zone kept it simple with some very standard offenses to win in 3 vs Twixtry. The second team was the most interesting to me with 4 out of the six members having some kind of pivot move, allowing for a lot of consistent pressure vs Twixtry's bulkier team.
- Replay
- Replay
- Replay
DugZa beat Maxouille in two bulky offense vs. balance battles. Dug seems to have been very prepared for fat teams, with annoying options like Garganacl and Psychic Noise Primarina able to break through those persistent walls.
- Replay
- Replay
Thiago Nunes shouted out their builder after winning 2-0 vs zS and it's not hard to see why. These teams all contain perfectly viable pokemon but I would definitely not say they are standard builds. Landorus-T hyper offense with raw Iron Boulder and a random Meowscarada into Quaquaval set up spam HO? Someone cooked here
- Replay
- Replay

In SPL
I'd advise checking out the SPL discussion thread for a full recap but I'll post one game here as it was the deciding game for one of the matchups and came down to the absolute wire.
Luispeikou vs Xavgb

grasspon the goat

 

[RainWaiv]

Why is Lando-T good now? I thought it was pretty subpar (outclassed by tusk) for pretty much all of dlc1.

 

[Delibird Heart]

this happened in the OU roomtour today. rain doubters in shambles rn...
semifinals: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2088949754
finals: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2088954383

Surely if this fucking goofy ass team could pull through, not all hope is lost for rain. In particular, as I've already voiced in the VR thread, I think overqwil is extremely slept on and allows rain to deal better with mons like gambit, rillaboom and raging bolt which are usually 6-0 matchups. I'm not gonna repeat everything I said there but tldr: rain might still have some bright days ahead. In fact I think it's probably still better than sun rn.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Rest assured. If Meowscarada is at risk of dropping I will be the one that keeps them afloat. My silly cat is going nowhere.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Not to make a one-liner, but the presence of Wugtrio on the Rain teams in those replays means someone cooked with a shitmon and it worked

 

[Delibird Heart]

yeah that someone was me bro. but really the team would be a gajillion times better if you simply replaced wug with like rbolt or keldeo or any other rain abuser lol

 

[MasterPlayer]

What was the set that you used for Wugtrio, by pure curiosity? Especially considering that Wugtrio's movepool is very limited

 

[Delibird Heart]

What was the set that you used for Wugtrio, by pure curiosity? Especially considering that Wugtrio's movepool is very limited

THE WUG (Wugtrio) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Dive
- Aqua Jet
- Stomping Tantrum
- Sucker Punch

tera ground stomping allows u to pull a fast one on raging bolt. everything else is pretty self explanatory. banded triple dive hits decently hard in the rain, and aqua jet can clutch sometimes vs opposing priority users, especially gambit. Goeey can also come in handy sometimes vs DD set up sweepers and such.

 

[Eeveeto]

THE WUG (Wugtrio) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Dive
- Aqua Jet
- Stomping Tantrum
- Sucker Punch

tera ground stomping allows u to pull a fast one on raging bolt. everything else is pretty self explanatory. banded triple dive hits decently hard in the rain, and aqua jet can clutch sometimes vs opposing priority users, especially gambit. Goeey can also come in handy sometimes vs DD set up sweepers and such.

Outside of breaking Subs, I think Liquidation is better on Wug. 5 less power, 10 more Accuracy and a secondary effect.