Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[BolTingBlazie]

Kingambit will drop off in usage significantly if Tera is banned and Ting Lu already has pretty low usage, idt their existence would make Espathra not objectively unhealthy and a centralizing force in the metagame at minimum, while it still adds not a single positive to the meta, even Regieleki could be a bad spinner.

Kingambit would still be insanely good, just not #1 in usage anymore, nor would it be broken without tera

Would still be incredibly common though

 

[ant4456]

Espathra would not be broken without Tera, but I am under no illusion that it would be a good addition to the metagame, or make it better in any way. Adding another matchup fish is a negative, even if it's probably falling to UU without some screens shit.

To be clear, definitely agreeing it's not broken without Tera, but also I'm not weeping for it wallowing in the deepest pits of no viability ubers Smogon Hell

 

[Finchinator]

I’m hoping the same thing as you. Save the Dino.

Speaking of saving, perhaps save my time and do not lie about qualifying on the survey.

 

[Morkal]

Speaking of saving, perhaps save my time and do not lie about qualifying on the survey.

Wanted to add onto this - there's no shame in not qualifying for whatever legitimate honest reason (not enough time to play, difficulty with the meta, etc). What is shameful is lying about it and causing extra work for people who are volunteers and have IRL obligations in addition to the work they put on Smogon. I didn't qualify for voting in the suspect tests, I didn't budget enough time for it and my team building in this meta has been pretty shaky recently (something I'm working on). Lying only digs a deeper hole, just play at your own pace and you'll get there!

 

[Finchinator]

I am just going to start calling out people who do so and eventually infracting people who do so repeatedly if it becomes an issue as it wastes my time and now the forums are foolproof (whereas google forms were less binding)

 

[YubelVT]

dude it's just people running stall which isn't a problem, calm down

you seem creased about a joke

I think this format is irredeemable but blissey being tiered OU is not part of it.

 

[Heatranator]

Speaking of saving, perhaps save my time and do not lie about qualifying on the survey.

Do people think at all? Like, I feel really sorry for Finch having to deal with BS like this.
In this day and age, our smartness level has gone way down if people try shit like this. Please don't waste his time.

But a few things I found interesting about the usage statistics.
Deo-S dropped which if you told me before DLC2, I would have laughed at you. It isn't unsuprising for me, but it is something that might change in the future. I believe Deo-S sets were underexplored as it had a wide movepool that could be put to use. I wouldn't be suprised if it rose up again due to a set breaking the metagame wide open.
Not suprised by these, though I am sad that my favourite fire croc dropped. Excadrill was dropping at some point and it will most likely not become OU again this gen.
Stall rises once again. Blissey is really, really great in this high powered metagame. I've recently been playing stall teams, and blissey can shut down a lot of problematic matchups. It only really fits on stall teams, though I do think some non-stall teams could use blissey for some problematic matchups.
Not unsuprised, these mons struggle a lot in this meta as there are simply a lot better mons that fill there roles. The might drop to UU next month, but I think serperior could see some improved usage.
These three mons I am suprised to see low usage. They all are pretty great in the meta but seem to not be used a lot. They might drop next month, but they do have niches in the tier.
Wow, I didn't expect this. Weavile is an amazing mon in the tier, but I guess its frailty has averted people from using it. This definetely could see higher usage in the future.
Did not expect this level of usage. Iron treads has risen from being a meme pick to having a great role in the tier as an alternative spinner to tusk that can check a lot of mons such as raging bolt. I thought it was still outclassed by tusk, but I was proven wrong.
The UU memes are dead, Lando-T has beaten the allegations. With only two sets, Lando has reprised its role as an extremely splashable mon. With good special attack, it can even beat a lot more mons such as tusk easier. It has even overtaken gliscor in usage, which outclassed it previously.
Suprised by this as well, going from 4-5 usage to 6-7 usage is quite a big fall off. Ghold struggles a lot more in this meta, but still can check a lot of mons and be an amazing offensive threat. Meanwhile, iron valiant still can be an offensive threat with most things being outsped by it, I think this usage is a little bit of a lie.

What do you think about the usage statistics? Anything stand out for you?

 

[Finchinator]

Early qualified survey returns:

• 1 Pokemon above 4.0
• 2 Pokemon above 3.5
• 3 Pokemon above 3.4
• 4 Pokemon above 3.3
• 5 Pokemon above 3.2
• 6 Pokemon above 3.0
• 7 Pokemon above 2.5

We got some work to do. I would expect a suspect this weekend or early next week. You can potentially expect a second suspect after that one and some time depending on how the tier continues to develop.

Note that I fully anticipate suspects to be our method of proceeding right now, not quickbans. This can change if we notice something particularly extreme though.

Additional notes:

• Only 28% of people want Tera outright banned now
• 46% of people want some action on Tera
• 30 unique topics were brought up in written comments ranging from "DEFENSE BOOSTING MOVES" to Cacturne

 

[Heatranator]

30 unique topics were brought up in written comments ranging from "DEFENSE BOOSTING MOVES" to Cacturne

Who let sand veil out into the tier? This ain't gen 3.

 

[j0nathan]

What do you think about the usage statistics? Anything stand out for you?

Primarina is my favourite Pokémon so im really happy that it has such a high usage (~8%). I was kinda scared that it would fall into UU last month. (And it was pretty close to falling)
But it has been used so much in SPL (and has a solid win rate) and now also on the Ladder.
I do think it's because Fini isn't in the game. Yeah these two have slight differences but Fini just outclasses Primarina.

 

[Avira]

Early qualified survey returns:

• 1 Pokemon above 4.0
• 2 Pokemon above 3.5
• 3 Pokemon above 3.4
• 4 Pokemon above 3.3
• 5 Pokemon above 3.2
• 6 Pokemon above 3.0
• 7 Pokemon above 2.5

Given that Gouging Fire got above a 4.0 on the survey, may I ask why it isn't being quickbanned since a 4.0 score is typically quickban territory?

 

[Morkal]

Who let sand veil out into the tier? This ain't gen 3.

We stan Cacturne but not Sand Veil

Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Trailblaze
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Destiny Bond​

What do you think about the usage statistics? Anything stand out for you?

The comparatively low usage of and was probably the biggest surprise for me. Both of these Pokemon fit on a wide variety of teams and are fantastic in their respective roles, as their coverage and speed profiles are stupendous. I'm not surprised about dropping to UU however; it's hard to find a team slot for it. nearly dropping to UU was also a bit of a surprise as I expected it to stay within #15-25 usage-position-wise, but I can understand why its usage was so low; Darkrai is great, but a lot of what it does is done more reliably by other offensive Dark-types in the tier despite others not having Darkrai's impressive speed profile.

 

[RS25802580]

Kingambit continues to be a problematic mon IMO. Let's face it, if Gambit was dropped with Indigo Disk, many of us would be clambering for a suspect. It's been around for so long that people are desensitized to it, but that doesn't make it any more balanced. "Gambit continues to do gambit things" is not a justification for Gambit being fine.

 

[YubelVT]

Not unsuprised, these mons struggle a lot in this meta as there are simply a lot better mons that fill there roles. The might drop to UU next month, but I think serperior could see some improved usage.
These three mons I am suprised to see low usage. They all are pretty great in the meta but seem to not be used a lot. They might drop next month, but they do have niches in the tier.

Heatran and Serp are definitely going to rise. Those 2 were the biggest casualties of Archaludon Rain's utter dominance. Gouging Fire Sun might not be the greatest format for them either but it's a much better fit than the former

Kingambit continues to be a problematic mon IMO. Let's face it, if Gambit was dropped with Indigo Disk, many of us would be clambering for a suspect. It's been around for so long that people are desensitized to it, but that doesn't make it any more balanced. "Gambit continues to do gambit things" is not a justification for Gambit being fine.

People have been chanting for a gambit suspect for almost the entire generation. It got one and was left allowed on a very narrow margin. Kingambit needs to fucking go away along with his long necked brother in law Raging Bolt

 

[viivian]

Kingambit will drop off in usage significantly if Tera is banned and Ting Lu already has pretty low usage, idt their existence would make Espathra not objectively unhealthy and a centralizing force in the metagame at minimum, while it still adds not a single positive to the meta, even Regieleki could be a bad spinner.

kingambit would be top 15 at worst without tera and ting-lu isn't going anywhere, it's still a top tier defensive pokemon. not to mention the simple fact that setting up with espathra in a teraless metagame is impractical because it's frail and has terrible defensive typing, to say nothing of how most pokemon can either trade hits with espathra or can just kill it before it properly gets going. how could this possibly become a centralizing force in OU without the use of tera to bypass its checks?

 

[j0nathan]

Early qualified survey returns:

• 1 Pokemon above 4.0
• 2 Pokemon above 3.5
• 3 Pokemon above 3.4
• 4 Pokemon above 3.3
• 5 Pokemon above 3.2
• 6 Pokemon above 3.0
• 7 Pokemon above 2.5

We got some work to do. I would expect a suspect this weekend or early next week. You can potentially expect a second suspect after that one and some time depending on how the tier continues to develop.

Note that I fully anticipate suspects to be our method of proceeding right now, not quickbans. This can change if we notice something particularly extreme though.

Additional notes:

• Only 28% of people want Tera outright banned now
• 46% of people want some action on Tera
• 30 unique topics were brought up in written comments ranging from "DEFENSE BOOSTING MOVES" to Cacturne

Who tf lost to Cacturne and is mad now?
Anyways, I forgot to say that in the survey but I lost to Unburden + Reversal Hitmonlee. Broken tech, please ban Hitmonlee.

 

[Morkal]

Kingambit continues to be a problematic mon IMO. Let's face it, if Gambit was dropped with Indigo Disk, many of us would be clambering for a suspect. It's been around for so long that people are desensitized to it, but that doesn't make it any more balanced. "Gambit continues to do gambit things" is not a justification for Gambit being fine.

I disagree; in all honesty, I don't think Gambit is even the best Dark-type in OU right now ( pls leave me alone with your Taunt shenanigans). Kingambit has clear counterplay, an exploitable defensive profile along with ways to take advantage of its overreliance on Sucker Punch and Swords Dance. It's slow and powerful with great STAB priority, but not anywhere near broken. I could see arguments for Kingambit being overwhelming in DLC1 where counterplay was much more limited, but in DLC2 the options to handle Kingambit are aplenty and the meta is nowhere near as kind to it now as it was back in DLC1.

 

[YubelVT]

kingambit would be top 15 at worst without tera and ting-lu isn't going anywhere, it's still a top tier defensive pokemon. not to mention the simple fact that setting up with espathra in a teraless metagame is impractical because it's frail and has terrible defensive typing, to say nothing of how most pokemon can either trade hits with espathra or can just kill it before it properly gets going. how could this possibly become a centralizing force in OU without the use of tera to bypass its checks?

Genuinely how often is Ting Lu the thing you're teraing with in games. Like honestly why does at least one person think it'd suddenly become dogshit if we banned tera tomorrow.

I disagree; in all honesty, I don't think Gambit is even the best Dark-type in OU right now ( pls leave me alone with your Taunt shenanigans). Kingambit has clear counterplay, an exploitable defensive profile along with ways to take advantage of its overreliance on Sucker Punch and Swords Dance. It's slow and powerful with great STAB priority, but not anywhere near broken. I could see arguments for Kingambit being overwhelming in DLC1 where counterplay was much more limited, but in DLC2 the options to handle Kingambit are aplenty and the meta is nowhere near as kind to it now as it was back in DLC1.

Kingambit is top 1 in usage and that wasn't the case throughout the entirety of Pre-Hisui, Pre-Home, Post-Home or DLC1. The metagame has entirely warped around kingambit and it's not a healthy pokemon to have in the tier. The reliable counterplay for kingambit is "have a fighting type and hope they didn't bring the tera type that beats you" and quite frankly, on a personal note, I'm tired of putting a fighting type on every team I build because of this fucking chess piece. I don't see any downside to getting rid of kingambit other than losing his defensive profile which... oh no... we have to ban something broken... what a shocker.

 

[viivian]

• 30 unique topics were brought up in written comments ranging from "DEFENSE BOOSTING MOVES" to Cacturne

kingambit users man. what else can be said.

Genuinely how often is Ting Lu the thing you're teraing with in games. Like honestly why does at least one person think it'd suddenly become dogshit if we banned tera tomorrow.

i have never seen anyone tera their ting-lu besides the very occasional tera ghost to block rapid spin. even then it's very situational and you're better off terastallizing something else

but i also think it's important to mention that my argument (as well as veti's argument) was centered around teraless espathra and not ting-lu

 

[Eeveeto]

Many month ago, in one of SV UU Suspects, I got the reqs using this:

Haxturne (Cacturne) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Foul Play
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Mons this guy walls in OU:

Barraskewda (with Tera).
Waterpon (unless has Play Rough or Superpower)
Hisuian Samurott (without Sacred Sword)
Dondozo (with Tera)
Keldeo (with Tera)
Rotom-W
Water + Psychic moves Manaphy

For a ZU Mon, not too bad and this isn,t even accounting for the offensive potential (see Morkal's post).

 

[Morkal]

Many month ago, in one of SV UU Suspects, I got the reqs using this:

Haxturne (Cacturne) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Foul Play
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Mons this guy walls in OU:

Barraskewda (with Tera).
Waterpon (unless has Play Rough or Superpower)
Hisuian Samurott (without Sacred Sword)
Dondozo (with Tera)
Keldeo (with Tera)
Rotom-W
Water + Psychic moves Manaphy

For a ZU Mon, not too bad and this isn,t even accounting for the offensive potential (see Morkal's post).

kingambit users man. what else can be said.

252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 369-437 (108.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 369-437 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Kingambit quakes in fear of the cactus

But yeah Cacturne is absolutely one of the most underexplored mons in this meta; its speed is atrocious but thanks to Tera, a great ability in Water Absorb, and a stupendous movepool, it absolutely has a few critical OU niches both offensively and defensively.

Also let the record show that I'm against an Espathra retest regardless of Tera or no Tera - it may be balanced without Tera, but it's extremely annoying to play against and would likely be nothing but a net negative for the tier.

 

[YubelVT]

i have never seen anyone tera their ting-lu besides the very occasional tera ghost to block rapid spin. even then it's very situational and you're better off terastallizing something else

but i also think it's important to mention that my argument (as well as veti's argument) was centered around teraless espathra and not ting-lu

I'm 100% convinced that Ting Lu would only get better in a teraless metagame because there suddenly wouldn't be random defensive teras on pokemon it normally beats

 

[Heatranator]

I firmly believe that with enough pratice and teambuilding, anything can be used in an OU match. I've used things from registeel, to dachsbun, to magnezone, to garticuno, to the legendary beasts. Heck, I've used lick on a mon and it was amazing. If something like cacturne which has never had a niche in OU outside of Gen 3 can be used and be great, I think that shows how diverse the metagame is.
You just need to know how to build around that mon. This metagame is both extremely restricting on teambuilding, but also the most expressive there is, if you get what I mean.

 

[YubelVT]

I firmly believe that with enough pratice and teambuilding, anything can be used in an OU match. I've used things from registeel, to dachsbun, to magnezone, to garticuno, to the legendary beasts. Heck, I've used lick on a mon and it was amazing. If something like cacturne which has never had a niche in OU outside of Gen 3 can be used and be great, I think that shows how diverse the metagame is.
You just need to know how to build around that mon. This metagame is both extremely restricting on teambuilding, but also the most expressive there is, if you get what I mean.

LIMBER DITTO TO TOP 100 ON LADDER BOIS LET'S DO IT

 

[RS25802580]

I disagree; in all honesty, I don't think Gambit is even the best Dark-type in OU right now ( pls leave me alone with your Taunt shenanigans). Kingambit has clear counterplay, an exploitable defensive profile along with ways to take advantage of its overreliance on Sucker Punch and Swords Dance. It's slow and powerful with great STAB priority, but not anywhere near broken. I could see arguments for Kingambit being overwhelming in DLC1 where counterplay was much more limited, but in DLC2 the options to handle Kingambit are aplenty and the meta is nowhere near as kind to it now as it was back in DLC1.

Appreciate the comment. Respectfully, I disagree. There's a reason why Gambit is Top 1 in usage this past month. The meta is plenty kind to it and there is virtually no downside to running Gambit. It is arguably the best win condition in the game on top of its amazing defensive utility.

Recent meta changes have greatly favored Gambit. There is a decline in faster Wisp users, with Bulky Ace, Moltres, and Skeledirge all largely falling off. Recent Ace sets have pivoted to more offensive variants, dropping Wisp entirely for Tera Ice to Gambit's benefit. Encore users are also fewer; Ogerpon now commonly drops Encore in favor of Play Rough now that the meta is infested with dragons. There are also fewer Substitute users; Moth dropped to UU and sun teams favor Choiced Wake over sub.

Reliance on Sucker Punch is not a bad thing in the midst of these favorable meta changes; this is also part of why Raging Bolt is so popular now. And outside of tech like sub/encore, which are increasingly difficult to slot onto teams given the aforementioned meta trends and the oversaturation of many different threats right now, there is no reliable way to outplay sucker punch (good read linked here).

To avoid being too partisan, I should mention that there is other counterplay that exists. Wisp Pult and Encore Valiant still see a lot of use, though they can't switch into Gambit directly. Dondozo and Skarmory are decent defensive checks, but both of these mons have to run Tera Dragon/Grass over Tera Fighting nowadays due to Waterpon. Consequently, they are both one Tera Dark away from folding to Gambit in the late game (particularly if Gambit goes Jolly to outspeed the common Skarm spread).

I don't think Gambit is the top pressing issue right now, but I do feel that it's absolutely worth suspecting in the future. It only avoided a ban by a hair last time, and enough time and meta changes have now passed that a re-suspect feels appropriate.