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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
my crother in bhrist there are 4 separate forms of tauros
Interesting way to say that, but I absolutely agree. If only we had bouffalant in this game. Then we would have 5 bulls running around, the exact number of threats we need to get rid of (potentially).
that’s actually a horrible choice because of that exact reason.
kingambit is high usage and didn’t get banned because there’s so many swing voters that wanted it to stay because of “defensive value”.
raging bolt is similar, it’s got high usage due to great “defensive value”.
A lot of people are using it for its offensive power, but just as importantly because you can compress checking quite a few strong pokemon with it, especially if you count Tera as well.
gouging fire is similar, it’s breaking swipe set is so bulky you can use it to defensively check a lot of top threats!
RKOtaku was getting at a really valid point, there’s a small pool of viable pokemon you kinda need on your team, you can’t really make diverse teams. We almost at Ubers levels of centralisation at this point.
Gouging fire is so bulky it can check itself! In fact, gouging fire is probably the best check to itself!
I don't think gouging fire is broken atm, but saying it is the best check to itself is not very good. It indicates that the mon is so great that you should use one yourself to counter it. That is the definition of meta warping. I know your probably trying to say "gouging fire can check itself", but that "best" part doesn't really help with saying it isn't broken.
Or maybe you are trying to say gouging is broken in which case I will stop speaking.
Okay you are right, I was wrong.
Just a question, how exactly does palafin beat dodonzo?
Is it drain punching it to oblivion?
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Reminds me a little of Dracovish, except somehow more broken.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
If there's all this centralization, and yet theres no clear thing to ban, what can you actually do? The tiering framework or whatever sham of a constitution we have for deciding what in particular is broken doesn't cover a ring of seven or so (exact number may vary) top dogs. None of them are exceptional beyond their exceptionality above the rest, and so you can't really point a finger at any of them without everyone rightfully saying that the other six (or eight or four or whatever the first number minus one is) are more worthy.
Ban them all. We can guess which seven you are referring to. The broader point about not being able to create diverse teams is true. Really hurting the metagame rn.
I personally haven't been sold on Raging Bolt being broken, I'm a lot more in favor of suspecting Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon.
To me it's always been heavily reliant on Calm Mind or the one time Booster Energy boost to use a boosted Draco Meteor. Counterplay in my opinion is heavily more broadened than Kingambit, a Pokemon that has many similarities in their primary gameplan (and which i also think is balanced).
Thunderclap as a form of priority being completely blanked by one of the most common defensive types. The rise of both Landorus-T and Iron Treads while mainly due in part to Archaludon's reign both prove to be very good checks to Raging Bolt, which I personally think might stick around for a good while. Great Tusk being the most common Pokemon in the format right now also gives Bolt an incredibly hard time, being able to revenge kill from full with Headlong Rush:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 414-488 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now while yeah, Tera is obviously a factor, I don't think Raging Bolt is particularly that broken post-tera. It's most common Tera Type in Tera Fairy isn't the best defensively, and crumbles to stuff like Kingambit and Gholdengo two extremely common mons.
I think we're going to see a decrease of Weather Ball sets due to Rain being a lot less consistent, allowing for a lot more consistent counterplay against Raging Bolt, and probably a rise in the standard CM set, most of the counterplay is extremely consistent, and I wanted to list a bunch of options that check/counter Bolt extremely well (with the exception of uncommon Taunt sets).
I'd say that a variety of team styles have multiple different ways to answer Raging Bolt, it's an incredibly versatile and powerful Pokemon, but I think there's definitely suspect targets that are more worthy of examination.
To me it's always been heavily reliant on Calm Mind or the one time Booster Energy boost to use a boosted Draco Meteor. Counterplay in my opinion is heavily more broadened than Kingambit, a Pokemon that has many similarities in their primary gameplan (and which i also think is balanced).
Thunderclap as a form of priority being completely blanked by one of the most common defensive types. The rise of both Landorus-T and Iron Treads while mainly due in part to Archaludon's reign both prove to be very good checks to Raging Bolt, which I personally think might stick around for a good while. Great Tusk being the most common Pokemon in the format right now also gives Bolt an incredibly hard time, being able to revenge kill from full with Headlong Rush:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 414-488 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now while yeah, Tera is obviously a factor, I don't think Raging Bolt is particularly that broken post-tera. It's most common Tera Type in Tera Fairy isn't the best defensively, and crumbles to stuff like Kingambit and Gholdengo two extremely common mons.
I think we're going to see a decrease of Weather Ball sets due to Rain being a lot less consistent, allowing for a lot more consistent counterplay against Raging Bolt, and probably a rise in the standard CM set, most of the counterplay is extremely consistent, and I wanted to list a bunch of options that check/counter Bolt extremely well (with the exception of uncommon Taunt sets).
Ground Counters and Blissey:
These are all mons that beat out Bolt 90% of the time and are able to even set up hazards in it's face. Iron Treads is a bit more iffy due to Tera Fairy/Flying but some offensive versions with Steel Beam can deal with Fairy or allow for a switchout with Eject Button.
Blissey also just does Blissey things
Fast Encore Checks:
/ 
(The hardest of Hard Counters)
While Encore Samurott-Hisui and Whimsicott are kind of memes, the rest very commonly run Encore in their moveset and are able to outspeed Raging Bolt and lock it into CM or Thunderclap and get free setup or support opportunities on an Encore'd Raging Bolt. These all double as great Kingambit checks (-Whims
) and to many dangerous setup sweepers in the format. I'd personally recommend both Iron Valiant and Tinkaton due to their added Dragon Immunity, giving both an easier time switching in.
Electric Resist/Immune Revenge Killers:
These mons all resist a priority Thunderclap and deal upwards of 75% to unboosted Raging Bolt with their coverage. These Pokemon are the main ones that get foiled by a Defensive Tera, however many of them have pivoting options to scout a Tera Fairy, while others can deal upwards of 50% to even Tera Fairy, making it fairly trivial to revenge kill.
Tera Options:
(Ground, Dragon)
(Steel, Ground)
(Ground)
(Ground, Fairy)
(Ground)
(Fairy, With Low Kick Pre-Tera)
(Fairy)
(Steel, Bit of an iffier pick, usually depends on if they're running Tbolt)
(Ground)
(Ground)
A bunch of mons that have Offensive and Tera Options to beat out Bolt, Volc and Serp both need Tera Blast, but the rest are able to defensively tera to resist either Thunderclap or Dragon Pulse / Draco.
Toxic:
One form of counterplay this mon has that isn't shared by Kingambit, being toxiced and put on a timer suuuuucks. You have less room to play with Thunderclap 50/50's on faster mons and you either offset your Leftovers recovery or are pretty much dead in the water against tox+protect Gliscor.
These are all mons that beat out Bolt 90% of the time and are able to even set up hazards in it's face. Iron Treads is a bit more iffy due to Tera Fairy/Flying but some offensive versions with Steel Beam can deal with Fairy or allow for a switchout with Eject Button.
Blissey also just does Blissey things
Fast Encore Checks:
/ (The hardest of Hard Counters)While Encore Samurott-Hisui and Whimsicott are kind of memes, the rest very commonly run Encore in their moveset and are able to outspeed Raging Bolt and lock it into CM or Thunderclap and get free setup or support opportunities on an Encore'd Raging Bolt. These all double as great Kingambit checks (-Whims
) and to many dangerous setup sweepers in the format. I'd personally recommend both Iron Valiant and Tinkaton due to their added Dragon Immunity, giving both an easier time switching in.Electric Resist/Immune Revenge Killers:
These mons all resist a priority Thunderclap and deal upwards of 75% to unboosted Raging Bolt with their coverage. These Pokemon are the main ones that get foiled by a Defensive Tera, however many of them have pivoting options to scout a Tera Fairy, while others can deal upwards of 50% to even Tera Fairy, making it fairly trivial to revenge kill.
Tera Options:
(Ground, Dragon) (Steel, Ground) (Ground) (Ground, Fairy) (Ground) (Fairy, With Low Kick Pre-Tera) (Fairy) (Steel, Bit of an iffier pick, usually depends on if they're running Tbolt) (Ground) (Ground)A bunch of mons that have Offensive and Tera Options to beat out Bolt, Volc and Serp both need Tera Blast, but the rest are able to defensively tera to resist either Thunderclap or Dragon Pulse / Draco.
Toxic:
One form of counterplay this mon has that isn't shared by Kingambit, being toxiced and put on a timer suuuuucks. You have less room to play with Thunderclap 50/50's on faster mons and you either offset your Leftovers recovery or are pretty much dead in the water against tox+protect Gliscor.
I'd say that a variety of team styles have multiple different ways to answer Raging Bolt, it's an incredibly versatile and powerful Pokemon, but I think there's definitely suspect targets that are more worthy of examination.
God, I wish there were more viable rapid spinners/defoggers. I know that tusk is one of the most splashable mons in the tier, but sometimes I want to get creative with my teams and I just want to use a unique hazard remover that won't cripple my team a decent amount. Like I've used noivern and while it was decent, it was not the best.
Still, I don't mind the hazard removal situation that much, it just is a minor annoyance.
Still, I don't mind the hazard removal situation that much, it just is a minor annoyance.
Maybe it's my sand spamming ass but I really don't think Raging Bolt is broken. While I did vote no ban on Arch I could very easily see the other side and I don't mind the ban as much, I really don't agree with Bolt being broken. On the contrary, I think its presence in the tier is rather healthy, providing good typing with good bulk (good for checking Ogerpon Wellspring, which I am beginning to think is a little too broken) as well as priority. It also keeps Gliscor more honest since Gliscor has to go out of its way in EVs to try and check it on teams that can't afford a sturdier check. And as some others have said, gatekeeping Zapdos is a pretty big positive as well.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 466-550 (114.4 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nice check
Anyway yeah while play rough makes it a flimsy check at best it stills allows you to play around Oger, which balance teams can really struggle against. I'm a big fan of bulkier variants of Bolt personally.
You should have speed control on balance in the first place, and oger is nowhere near broken. Things like dragapult and zamazenta easily revenge it unless tailwind is up or something. A lot of them forgo play rough as well so ig bolt could be a good check, idk if you want to risk sacking it to find out though.
Pult and Zama are for sure great offensive checks on boots spam balance teams, although they don't like coming in too often. I just don't like how much pressure Oger exerts on teams that lean less towards boots spam and tend to have Tusk as their spinner. Incidentally that's the style most of my teams fall under so maybe that's a me problem but honestly I just find Oger really suffocating as of late.
Try to fit skarmory, that’s a decent check imo.
Not really, it's at risk of getting crit by Cudgel, and gets preyed on by encore sd sets. I've been using banded rillaboom to check it, in my most recent team, but it needs chip to actually remove it. It's lowkey a big threat, and checking it kind of depends on just getting a lucky matchup or making sure it gets chipped for rilla to remove it without having to depend on tera for the extra power.
Yeah ngl checking it defensively can be matchup dependent, but dragapult and zamazenta still easily revenge it.
Time for Sandslash to make a resurgence, and Cloyster... oh wait, Game Freak removed it from its moveset last gen and never brought it back
it's time for Komala to return to its rightful place as an OU titan.
(fun fact: did you know komala is the only normal type in SV to not learn rest?)
It doesn't learn it because of its ability. If you hack in Rest, it always fails
question for everyone
obviously this meta isn't over, but i'm curious: what's your favorite "phase" of the meta thus far? aka, beginning of the generation, home without dlc, dlc 1, and dlc 2/current meta
i've been wondering this for a while, given how many i see upset and/or complaining about the current state of ou, what the "best" part of gen 9 was by general consensus.
obviously this meta isn't over, but i'm curious: what's your favorite "phase" of the meta thus far? aka, beginning of the generation, home without dlc, dlc 1, and dlc 2/current meta
i've been wondering this for a while, given how many i see upset and/or complaining about the current state of ou, what the "best" part of gen 9 was by general consensus.
That would mean u will have to face rest garganacl