Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Archaludon is dumb as heck. Definitely a miserable mon to face and likely broken. But why go after the whole weather? Is rain dominating tournaments or top of the ladder? Is Pelipper broken? We’re really considering that direction?
I think you’re reading into the message wrong — “a deeper look into Rain, specifically Archaludon” — was the message. It’s likely Arch is the focus of any action. It’s more that we are keeping an open mind as the metagame adapts than we are committing to anything else at all.
Maybe if Electric had actual resistances, Pincurchin would start seeing legit use.
There's only a select handful of attacks Pincurchin can comfortably switch into. Flying, which is largely Defensive and the only two Pokemon running Flying Type moves are Roaring Moon and Corviknight, Steel, which you basically just lose to every other move each Steel Type has anyways and Electric, which is almost nowhere to be seen.
If Pincurchin was Steel it’d still be bad as a Terrain setter.
48/95/85 bulk doesn’t get you far. For comparison;
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pincurchin: 211-250 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You also lack Volt Switch or even strong STAB. It had Rising Voltage before, but lost it this gen for some reason when Weezing-G, Rillaboom, and Indeedee Male all got their Terrain moves introduced in SWSH DLC.
I decided to try out Delphox but it just does not have the bulk or power. That isn't to say it's the worst thing ever, but it kinda has to Tera to get an extra turn to pick up kills. It was on average making major dents at +2 to the Balance teams I fought, as expected, and it does have nice offensive pressure. But even just a random Slowking Sludge is gonna do almost half, meaning that if they have any revenge killer you will never get into another position to get a kill, really. Not saying I'm surprised for the record, just wanted to check it out because it's a cool design anyways.
If I was to buff Delphox I'd probably just give it more HP or Special Attack, it either needs more reward for getting a setup turn or to be easier to setup and live to tell the tale. Or, its lower tier stuff is chill too!
yet another example of radical red being 100% better than the actual official games, delphox is S+++ tier with magic guard mind blown
other fantastic additions include: typhlosion with priority eruption, dialga with 100/150/130 bulk and no weaknesses, water/fighting strong jaw mega drednaw, no-recoil steel beam mega duraludon, and origin pulse clawizter
Morkal the madlad finally did it, he found a niche for Meganium.
In celebration, and as promised, here is
658Greninja’s Teambuilding Guide for the Indigo Disk Metagame
Introduction
The purpose of this guide is to break down teambuilding and team archetypes in a way that is easily digestible for aspiring and veteran builders alike. This guide is for everyone. Whether you wanna be the next Morkal or if you wanna run the most tryhard teams for SPL/WCOP/OLT.
As someone who builds teams frequently, I could understand the difficultly of building a viable, cohesive team for laddering or tournaments. Gen 9 OU is a very unforgiving tier. There are so many powerful threats and polarizing matchups that you need a team to be able to play around any bad matchup.
Note: This guide has been posted during Kyurem’s suspect test. So I will refrain from talking about Kyurem but will reference it once in a while.
The Four Playstyles Of SV OU
While Hyper Offense is a dominant style in SV Overused, it is not the only way to build in the tier. Imo, Gen 9 OU can be broken down into four archetypes/playstyles. Superman, Elephant-Style, Hyper Offense, and Weather.
Superman
Centered around wearing down the opposing team with Knock + Hazards
Otherwise known as Boots Spam, but ADV players know it as Superman. It is a playstyle built around minimizing the effects of hazards through Pokemon with Boots or Pokemon immune to Spikes.
Wincon
Generally speaking, they are built to outlast the opponent and force progress through spikes + Knock. Superman teams without spikes tend to have a dedicated wincon, along with a wallbreaker, a status spreader, or Future Sight support to chip the opposing team down.
Elephant-Style
Traditional Bulky Offense. 3-4 offensive threats, and a defensive backbone
Balance Teams that make use of Hatterene as a deter of hazard stacking and as a wincon. These teams may or may not have a second form of hazard removal like Tusk, Treads, Cinder, or Corv
The term “Elephant-style” refers to teams with Tusk, Treads, or other forms of hazard control like Hatterene, Cinderace, Corviknight, or Excadrill. They are designed to support strong but hazard vulnerable Pokemon like Specs Kyurem, Heatran, Specs Dragapult, or Scarf Enamorus.
Wincon
The wincon of Elephant-style builds is team dependent, but the main goal is to keep hazards out and limit the opportunities of spike setters, which is why most of these builds lean towards Bulky Offense.
Hyper Offense
Classic HO. HO teams with a dedicated hazard lead, i.e Glimmora, Samurott, Deo-S
Teams built to overwhelm the opponent. Usually through a dedicated lead, and 5 setup sweepers.
Wincon
Hyper Offense teams thrive when they can maintain momentum and pressure throughout a game. This can be done through Pokemon with shared checks like Boulder and Moon, or through good positioning and double switches.
Weather
Teams built to abuse weather through Swift Swim, strong Water types, Archaludon, and mons with powerful Thunders and Hurricanes
Teams built to abuse weather through Protosynthesis, Chlorophyll, strong Fire types, while keeping hazards out with Hatterene, Torkoal, and the elephants
Teams with Pelipper or Torkoal built to abuse their respective weather as much as possible. These builds are often lean towards the offensive side, similarly to Hyper Offense
Wincon
Make use of the 5-8 turns of Rain/Sun you have to overwhelm the opponent with abusers and maintain momentum, again, very similar to winning with Hyper Offense, but with more of a defensive backbone.
The reason why I broke it down to four archetypes is because certain Pokemon fit on one structure more than another. Of course there are Pokemon that can fit on multiple or every archetype like Kingambit, but slapping certain other Pokemon onto a team will cause it to lack cohesion. I have seen a lot of teams that slap on a random Pokemon that just doesn’t fit the style. Lemme give an example.
So this is a seemingly standard HO team, but the final Pokemon is Clodsire. While it is a good Pokemon, it is not a good fit on this team. I get the idea, Clodsire can handle Swift Swim Barra and set up hazards, but since Hyper Offense focuses on all-out aggresion and pressure, Clodsire’s passive nature only hurts this team’s performance.
It could be other things like putting Heatran on a Rain team, putting Barraskewda on a Sun team, or putting a Booster Energy Iron Boulder on a bulky Boots spike stacking team. To put it this way, imagine if you made a steak and put frosting and sprinkles on it. Not only do you have diabetes now, but it also tastes like crap. Frosting with sprinkles is good on cupcakes, not steaks.
So how do you determine what fits on where? Simple, breaking down each Pokemon into roles.
Roles
The role of any Pokemon could be based on the stats, movepools, and type matchups for each Pokemon. As a result, many Pokemon in OU can fulfill multiple roles at once. For example, Slowking-Galar is a special wall, but it is also a slow pivot that can spread status. Kingambit can win games with Swords Dance + Sucker Punch, but its also a solid ghost resist.
Physical Wall
-Pokemon with high physical bulk. (Ex: Skarmory, Dondozo)
Special Wall
-Pokemon with high special bulk. (Ex: Slowking-G, Ting-Lu, Blissey)
Mixed Wall
-Pokemon with both good physical and special bulk. (Ex: Toxapex)
Rocker
-Pokemon with access to Stealth Rock. (Ex: Heatran, Clefable, Glimmora)
Spike Setter
-Pokemon with access to Spikes or Ceaseless Edge. (Ex: Skarmory, Ting-Lu, Gliscor, Samurott-H)
Web Setter
-Pokemon with access to Webs. (Ex: Ribombee, Araquanid)
Screens/Veil Setter
-Pokemon with access to the Screens or Aurora Veil. (Ex: Deoxys-S, Ninetales-A)
Hazard Removal
-Pokemon with access to hazard removal options like Rapid Spin, or Defog. (Ex: Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Corviknight, Cinderace)
Pivot
-Pokemon with access to pivoting moves like U-Turn, Volt Switch, or Flip Turn. (Ex: Meowscarada, Gliscor, Dragapult, Rotom-Wash, Barraskewda, Slowking-G)
Knock Off
-Pokemon with access to Knock Off. (Ex: Great Tusk, Meowscarada, Weavile, Gliscor)
Status Spreader
-Pokemon that can directly spread status like paralysis, poison, or burns. (Ex: Dragapult, Gliscor, Slowking-G, Serperior)
Encore
-Pokemon with access to Encore. (Ex: Iron Valiant, Ogerpon)
Healing Wish
-Pokemon with access to Healing Wish. (Ex: Enamorus, Hatterene, Latias, Lilligant-H)
Weather Setter
-Pokemon with abilities that can set up weather. (Ex: Pelipper, Torkoal, Tyranitar, Ninetales-A)
Terrain Setter
-Pokemon with abilities that can set up terrain. (Ex: Rillaboom, Indeedee)
Status Absorber
-Pokemon with abilities that let them absorb or repel status conditions. (Ex: Gliscor, Clefable, Blissey)
Hazard Repellent
-Pokemon with Magic Bounce. (Ex: Hatterene)
Unaware Wall
-Pokemon with Unaware. (Ex: Dondozo, Clodsire, Skeledirge, Clefable)
Water Immune
-Pokemon with Water Absorb or Storm Drain. (Ex: Clodsire, Ogerpon-W)
Ground Immune
-Pokemon with Levitate or Earth Eater. (Ex: Rotom-Wash, Latias)
Fire Immune
-Pokemon with Flash Fire or Well-Baked Body. (Ex: Heatran)
Electric Immune
-Pokemon with Volt Absorb or Lightning Rod. (Ex: Thundurus-T)
Ghost Resist
-Pokemon with Purifying Salt. (Just Garganacl)
Regenerator Pivot
-Pokemon with Regenerator. (Ex: Slowking-G, Tornadus-T, Toxapex, Hydrapple)
Ground Immune
-Pokemon that are Flying types. (Ex: Gliscor, Skarmory, Enamorus, Dragonite, Corviknight)
Electric Immune
-Pokemon that are Ground types. (Ex: Great Tusk, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Iron Treads)
Spinblocker
-Pokemon that are Ghost types. The term spinblocker refers to their immunity to Rapid Spin, a Normal type move. (Ex: Dragapult, Gholdengo, Skeledirge)
Ghost Resist/Immune
-Pokemon that are immune to or resist Ghost type moves. (Ex: Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon)
Steel Type
-Pokemon that are Steel types (duh). (Ex: Skarmory, Kingambit, Heatran, Iron Treads)
Dark Resist
-Pokemon that resist Dark type moves. (Ex: Kingambit, Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant)
Grass Resist
-Pokemon that resist Grass type moves. (Ex: Skarmory, Raging Bolt, Heatran, Slowking-G, Archaludon)
Fire Resist
-Pokemon that resist Fire type moves. (Ex: Dondozo, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Primarina, Garganacl, Walking Wake, Gouging Fire)
Water Resist
-Pokemon that resist Water type moves. (Ex: Rillaboom, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake, Toxapex, Dondozo)
Fighting Resist/Immune
-Pokemon that are immune to or resist Fighting type moves. (Ex: Clefable, Gliscor, Gholdengo, Dragapult, Tornadus-T, Volcarona)
Fairy Type
-Pokemon that are Fairy types (duh). (Ex: Clefable, Enamorus, Iron Valiant, Hatterene, Primarina, Azumarill)
Fairy Resist
-Pokemon that resist Fairy type moves. (Ex: Volcarona, Heatran, Slowking-G, Gholdengo, Skeledirge, Corviknight)
Knock Off Absorber
-Pokemon that don’t mind losing their items. (Ex: Gliscor, Skarmory, Clefable)
Speed Control
-Pokemon that either have a high speed stat, can viably run a Choice Scarf, or have access to priority. (Ex: Dragapult, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Rillaboom, Dragonite, Weavile, Barraskewda)
Wallbreaker
-Pokemon with high attacking stats, a good movepool, and a solid offensive typing to rip through defensive cores. (Ex: Gholdengo, Walking Wake, Weavile, Samurott-H, Archaludon, Gouging Fire, Heatran, Hydrapple, Ursaluna, Keldeo)
Cleaner
-Pokemon that can finish off games after the enemy team is chipped and can function in the early game. (Ex: Dragapult, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Zamazenta, Enamorus)
Mixed Attacker
-Pokemon with good overall attacking stats and movepools to hit on both the physical and special side. (Ex: Iron Valiant, Dragapult)
Wincon
-Pokemon meant to click setup moves and use their attributes to sweep. (Ex: Kingambit, Volcarona, Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder)
Suicide Lead
-Pokemon meant to set up hazards or wear down the opposing team. (Ex: Glimmora, Samurott-H, Dragapult, Deoxys-S)
Keep in mind that there are some Pokemon that can do a role better than others, and just because they can perform one of these roles doesn’t make them an OU viable pick.
For example, Delibird can set up Spikes, spin hazards away, and is immune to Ground, but no one would consider it on their team, unless they wanted to lose.
Determining how good something is or if they have a niche is a skill that comes from metagame knowledge which I’ll get to later. Also, just because something can technically perform a role, doesn’t mean they are good at it. For example, Kingambit can run Stealth Rocks, but you lose to the number 1 spinner in the tier Great Tusk, and it has better things to be doing. Meowscarada resists Ghost, Dark, Grass, and Water, but it can only really switch into those moves once or twice due to its frailty. So keep that in mind.
Some roles are more appreciated on certain builds than others, or are not needed. For example, Superman teams don’t need hazard removal or Hatterene because they’re already designed to mitigate hazard damage. Hyper Offense doesn’t need walls or Unaware Pokemon because their focus is on all-out offense.
If you want to know what roles are the most important, check out Pinkacross’ teambuilding video. He explains the what and why of each role such as Knock Off, Pivots, Speed Control, and resists, among other things I’ve talked about here. Now let’s talk about tips.
Teambuilding Tips and Mistakes
Tip #1: Understand the Metagame
When building in any tier, it is important to know what are the top threats, their checks, and what pairs well with them. You also need to consider current meta trends. What is currently popular right now on the ladder or tournament scene? What is on the rise? How could I counteract it? Could I run a niche pick/set as a response? For this, I recommend playing some mid-to-high ladder games. If not, you could talk with other players on the OU chat, the discussion threads, the Discord server, or watch some top level replays. Then look at your team and ask, how does it do vs Kingambit? Gholdengo? Dragapult? Gouging Fire? Rain? etc.
Tip #2: Know What Fits and What Doesn’t
As I said before, there are Pokemon that function on specific team structures. Hyper Offense is about keeping up the pressure, so you wouldn’t run a Toxapex on that team. Superman teams do not need hazard removal, but they also require boots or spikes immunity to fit. So running Booster Valiant wouldn’t make sense. You also don’t wanna be running rock weak Pokemon without Boots. I’ve seen plenty of teams with out-of-place picks that don’t fit the archetype they’re in. Knowing what fits again, takes metagame knowledge.
There even used to be a sample team that with this problem. It was a Boots spam team, and it used Specs Kyurem. Obviously Specs Kyurem is an amazing set, but running a hazard weak Pokemon on a team without hazard removal is a terrible idea. It is not me discrediting the builder, it is to show that we all make mistakes. No matter the skill level.
Tip #3: Stick To One Concept
What it means is the first thing you brainstorm before building a team. It could be a certain Pokemon, a set, or a core. So naturally you build around that idea. What you shouldn’t do is clump together 2 or more of the same concept on the same team. I’ve seen teams where the problem is they trying to cram in as much sauce as possible. This leads to teams that are clunky, in-cohesive, and have lots of holes. I am guilty of this at times. Take this team for example.
Here I started with the standard Sub-Kyu + Hatt + Tusk core to keep hazards up, along with Gking to bring it in. This is simple and effective enough, but then I run Rillaboom to support the team with Grassy Terrain and make Kyurem seemingly more invincible, along with a Scarf Meowscarada to abuse the Terrain for stronger Flower Tricks.
The problem here is I tried combining multiple ideas together
(Hatt + Kyu + Tusk) (Kyu + Rilla) (Rilla + Meow)
resulting in the team lacking focus and being flawed. The concepts themselves are good, but you want to stick to one so you have room to teambuild vs the rest of the metagame. Especially in a meta as unforgiving as SV OU. To use another food-based metaphor. Let’s say you’ve been served a tasty burger, and you put some sauce on, it goes from delicious to heavenly. Now imagine that same burger, except you dumped the whole bottle in because you love the sauce so much. You can’t even taste the patty anymore, now its just a sauce sandwich.
Tip #4: Make Sure The Team Can Make Progress (or you end up being this guy)
Unless you are running hard stall, you must have a way to make progress. It is important to have checks to the metagame threats, but you should avoid trying to build to check everything. There is no team that doesn’t have counters, otherwise people would just run that one team. Instead, make sure you have a way to make progress first before considering defensive checks. It could be through hazards + Knock, Future Sight, or wallbreakers. It could also be offensive synergies like Dragapult + Weavile.
Tip #5: Have Fun (unedited frame btw)
If you’re seeing all this and comparing me to the No Fun police, just know that having fun is an important skill for teambuilding. It is an opportunity to innovate and explore the metagame. To experiment with different sets and EVs. Different Tera types, different Pokemon. If you’ve seen me talk about Magnezone, Slither Wing, and Empoleon, you know I’m not bullshitting you. No point in doing something if you don’t have fun with it. The rewards for building a successful team are there, like the Johto Slowking team that got me to Top 200 on the ladder.
To close this off, here are imo, the Top 5 Pokemon in the metagame (besides Kyurem). Slotting any of these Pokemon on your team can patch several holes you may encounter.
#1 Kingambit
The irony of the tier king having the word “King” in their name. Kingambit is absolutely the best and scariest Pokemon in the tier. Anyone who’s played the tier for just a couple games knows what it does. Endgame sweeps, bulky Ghost resist, Sucker Punch, amazing bulk, could run a variety of items and could be slapped on basically any team. When teambuilding, having counterplay to Kingambit should be a priority.
“Nah I’d win” - Kingambit
#2 Dragapult
Imo, Pult is Top 2 in the metagame. There is a reason it was the most used Pokemon in the first week of SPL. Its speed and offensive typing holds together many teams. Giving them the necessary tools to thrive in a hostile metagame. Pult can either rkill or check most of the metagame. Pult is also excellent at making progress early game with T-Wave/Wisp, setting up a lategame clean. Other sets like Specs, Sub-Hex, DD, Band, and Screens also contribute to its versatility. Even defensively, it provides teams with a spinblocker and a check to Volcarona. Pult patches up a lot of teambuilding holes alone. Which is why your team must have either a ghost resist or another check to it like Heatran or Clefable.
“Child endangerment go brr.” - Dragapult
#3 Slowking-Galar
For months now, Slowking-Galar has been one of the best and most used Pokemon on Superman and Elephant-Style builds. Single handedly defending them from the likes of Kyurem, Volcarona, Raging Bolt, Rain, Sun, and Serperior. It does this all while being the best pivot in the tier with Future Sight, Regenerator, and its fantastic bulk. It could also use its vast movepool to either cripple something with T-Wave/Toxic, snipe Gliscor with Ice Beam, hit Ghold/Kingambit with Flamethrower, or Trick Sludge/Scarf. Even if Kyurem leaves tomorrow, I would consider it a Top 5 pick. Make sure you have ways of breaking past this.
“Brain Blast!” - Slowking-Galar
#4 Gliscor
Despite the presence of strong Ice moves from Weavile, Meow, Kyurem, and Deo-S, Gliscor remains on the top. It provides immense value on teams due to being able to blanket check half the tier. You could customize Gliscor however you please. Physically defensive, specially defensive, mixed, speed creep Raging Bolt or Heatran, or Volcanion. It could be your spike setter, your rocker, your pivot, your wincon or your stallbreaker. It also makes Gliscor potent in team preview since they will not know the set right away. SD Glis is one of the scariest wincons as it exploits players’ instinct to swap to their own Gliscor or Clefable. Easy the most versatile defensive glue in the tier. Make sure your team can play around Gliscor and its hazards.
“I have become Death, Destroyer of Worlds.” - Gliscor
#5 Weavile
One of my most controversial takes yet but Weavile is very close to its SS counterpart. Out of the two Knock + T-Axel button mashers, Weavile is who I’d consider to be the best. Imo it is by a large margin. The fact Weavile was on 8 teams from week 1 of SPL while Meowscarada wasn’t even used at all should say something, despite Meow imo still being a good Poke. Weavile is not only threatening offensively, but it threatens several Ice weak threats like Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, Tera Flying Boulder, Rillaboom, and Scarf Enamorus via Ice Shard. At +2 and with rocks, Weavile outright OHKOs Skarm with Tera Ice Axel. It could even tech Low Kick for Gambit and Ting-Lu, while punishing Tera Steel attempts from Tusk. Like with Dragapult, having a fast, strong offensive presence is important, because you’ll otherwise succumb to a setup sweeper after your check to it is dead, or find yourself unable to break the opposing team.
“My Jordans are real.” - Weavile
Honorable Mentions (Unordered)
-Roaring Moon
-Ting-Lu
-Great Tusk
-Raging Bolt
-Volcarona
-Gholdengo
-Archaludon
-Hatterene
Closing Statement
If you have anything else to add that I might’ve missed, don’t be hesitant to do so. I’m open to different perspectives and ideas. This was a big project. So that will be it for me for a while, but before I go, I’ll give y’all a hint on who I will make a write-up for next.
If you have anything else to add that I might’ve missed, don’t be hesitant to do so. I’m open to different perspectives and ideas. This was a big project. So that will be it for me for a while, but before I go, I’ll give y’all a hint on who I will make a write-up for next.
Try wish delphox, it has suprising special bulk and can get you out of some tough spots.
But yeah, delphox kinda just lacks either speed, power or bulk. It's like golurk. They are so close to being top tier, or at the very least great in OU, but they just lack something to make them compete in top tier.
Delphox is way faster than it looks tho. Like you would expect a pokemon wearing a dress to be like, base 85 base 80, but delphox is fucking base 104 and that's still not enough in this generation. Shit's fucked
Delphox is way faster than it looks tho. Like you would expect a pokemon wearing a dress to be like, base 85 base 80, but delphox is fucking base 104 and that's still not enough in this generation. Shit's fucked
It is fucked if something like 115 speed is only good and not blazing fast. If delphox had like 111 speed, I could see it working. It would outspeed timid wake and ogerpon, which would be great.
Not super relevant but I think an issue most offensive Focus Sash leads (stuff like Hisuiark) would have is that they usually only end up trading themselves for something in a game, effectively meaning you're playing 5v5. Mons like Glimmora, Speed Deoxys and Hisuian Samurott don't really fall under this category because they set the tempo for the game and get you hazards or screens. Sure, you're playing 5v6, but the opponent now needs to juggle the hazards you just set up or break past the screens.
Morkal the madlad finally did it, he found a niche for Meganium.
In celebration, and as promised, here is
658Greninja’s Teambuilding Guide for the Indigo Disk Metagame
Introduction
The purpose of this guide is to break down teambuilding and team archetypes in a way that is easily digestible for aspiring and veteran builders alike. This guide is for everyone. Whether you wanna be the next Morkal or if you wanna run the most tryhard teams for SPL/WCOP/OLT.
As someone who builds teams frequently, I could understand the difficultly of building a viable, cohesive team for laddering or tournaments. Gen 9 OU is a very unforgiving tier. There are so many powerful threats and polarizing matchups that you need a team to be able to play around any bad matchup.
Note: This guide has been posted during Kyurem’s suspect test. So I will refrain from talking about Kyurem but will reference it once in a while.
While Hyper Offense is a dominant style in SV Overused, it is not the only way to build in the tier. Imo, Gen 9 OU can be broken down into four archetypes/playstyles. Superman, Elephant-Style, Hyper Offense, and Weather.
Otherwise known as Boots Spam, but ADV players know it as Superman. It is a playstyle built around minimizing the effects of hazards through Pokemon with Boots or Pokemon immune to Spikes.
Wincon
Generally speaking, they are built to outlast the opponent and force progress through spikes + Knock. Superman teams without spikes tend to have a dedicated wincon, along with a wallbreaker, a status spreader, or Future Sight support to chip the opposing team down.
Balance Teams that make use of Hatterene as a deter of hazard stacking and as a wincon. These teams may or may not have a second form of hazard removal like Tusk, Treads, Cinder, or Corv
The term “Elephant-style” refers to teams with Tusk, Treads, or other forms of hazard control like Hatterene, Cinderace, Corviknight, or Excadrill. They are designed to support strong but hazard vulnerable Pokemon like Specs Kyurem, Heatran, Specs Dragapult, or Scarf Enamorus.
Wincon
The wincon of Elephant-style builds is team dependent, but the main goal is to keep hazards out and limit the opportunities of spike setters, which is why most of these builds lean towards Bulky Offense.
Teams built to overwhelm the opponent. Usually through a dedicated lead, and 5 setup sweepers.
Wincon
Hyper Offense teams thrive when they can maintain momentum and pressure throughout a game. This can be done through Pokemon with shared checks like Boulder and Moon, or through good positioning and double switches.
Teams built to abuse weather through Protosynthesis, Chlorophyll, strong Fire types, while keeping hazards out with Hatterene, Torkoal, and the elephants
Teams with Pelipper or Torkoal built to abuse their respective weather as much as possible. These builds are often lean towards the offensive side, similarly to Hyper Offense
Wincon
Make use of the 5-8 turns of Rain/Sun you have to overwhelm the opponent with abusers and maintain momentum, again, very similar to winning with Hyper Offense, but with more of a defensive backbone.
The reason why I broke it down to four archetypes is because certain Pokemon fit on one structure more than another. Of course there are Pokemon that can fit on multiple or every archetype like Kingambit, but slapping certain other Pokemon onto a team will cause it to lack cohesion. I have seen a lot of teams that slap on a random Pokemon that just doesn’t fit the style. Lemme give an example.
So this is a seemingly standard HO team, but the final Pokemon is Clodsire. While it is a good Pokemon, it is not a good fit on this team. I get the idea, Clodsire can handle Swift Swim Barra and set up hazards, but since Hyper Offense focuses on all-out aggresion and pressure, Clodsire’s passive nature only hurts this team’s performance.
It could be other things like putting Heatran on a Rain team, putting Barraskewda on a Sun team, or putting a Booster Energy Iron Boulder on a bulky Boots spike stacking team. To put it this way, imagine if you made a steak and put frosting and sprinkles on it. Not only do you have diabetes now, but it also tastes like crap. Frosting with sprinkles is good on cupcakes, not steaks.
So how do you determine what fits on where? Simple, breaking down each Pokemon into roles.
The role of any Pokemon could be based on the stats, movepools, and type matchups for each Pokemon. As a result, many Pokemon in OU can fulfill multiple roles at once. For example, Slowking-Galar is a special wall, but it is also a slow pivot that can spread status. Kingambit can win games with Swords Dance + Sucker Punch, but its also a solid ghost resist.
Physical Wall
-Pokemon with high physical bulk. (Ex: Skarmory, Dondozo)
Special Wall
-Pokemon with high special bulk. (Ex: Slowking-G, Ting-Lu, Blissey)
Mixed Wall
-Pokemon with both good physical and special bulk. (Ex: Toxapex)
Rocker
-Pokemon with access to Stealth Rock. (Ex: Heatran, Clefable, Glimmora)
Spike Setter
-Pokemon with access to Spikes or Ceaseless Edge. (Ex: Skarmory, Ting-Lu, Gliscor, Samurott-H)
Web Setter
-Pokemon with access to Webs. (Ex: Ribombee, Araquanid)
Screens/Veil Setter
-Pokemon with access to the Screens or Aurora Veil. (Ex: Deoxys-S, Ninetales-A)
Hazard Removal
-Pokemon with access to hazard removal options like Rapid Spin, or Defog. (Ex: Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Corviknight, Cinderace)
Pivot
-Pokemon with access to pivoting moves like U-Turn, Volt Switch, or Flip Turn. (Ex: Meowscarada, Gliscor, Dragapult, Rotom-Wash, Barraskewda, Slowking-G)
Knock Off
-Pokemon with access to Knock Off. (Ex: Great Tusk, Meowscarada, Weavile, Gliscor)
Status Spreader
-Pokemon that can directly spread status like paralysis, poison, or burns. (Ex: Dragapult, Gliscor, Slowking-G, Serperior)
Encore
-Pokemon with access to Encore. (Ex: Iron Valiant, Ogerpon)
Healing Wish
-Pokemon with access to Healing Wish. (Ex: Enamorus, Hatterene, Latias, Lilligant-H)
Weather Setter
-Pokemon with abilities that can set up weather. (Ex: Pelipper, Torkoal, Tyranitar, Ninetales-A)
Terrain Setter
-Pokemon with abilities that can set up terrain. (Ex: Rillaboom, Indeedee)
Status Absorber
-Pokemon with abilities that let them absorb or repel status conditions. (Ex: Gliscor, Clefable, Blissey)
Hazard Repellent
-Pokemon with Magic Bounce. (Ex: Hatterene)
Unaware Wall
-Pokemon with Unaware. (Ex: Dondozo, Clodsire, Skeledirge, Clefable)
Water Immune
-Pokemon with Water Absorb or Storm Drain. (Ex: Clodsire, Ogerpon-W)
Ground Immune
-Pokemon with Levitate or Earth Eater. (Ex: Rotom-Wash, Latias)
Fire Immune
-Pokemon with Flash Fire or Well-Baked Body. (Ex: Heatran)
Electric Immune
-Pokemon with Volt Absorb or Lightning Rod. (Ex: Thundurus-T)
Ghost Resist
-Pokemon with Purifying Salt. (Just Garganacl)
Regenerator Pivot
-Pokemon with Regenerator. (Ex: Slowking-G, Tornadus-T, Toxapex, Hydrapple)
Ground Immune
-Pokemon that are Flying types. (Ex: Gliscor, Skarmory, Enamorus, Dragonite, Corviknight)
Electric Immune
-Pokemon that are Ground types. (Ex: Great Tusk, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Iron Treads)
Spinblocker
-Pokemon that are Ghost types. The term spinblocker refers to their immunity to Rapid Spin, a Normal type move. (Ex: Dragapult, Gholdengo, Skeledirge)
Ghost Resist/Immune
-Pokemon that are immune to or resist Ghost type moves. (Ex: Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon)
Steel Type
-Pokemon that are Steel types (duh). (Ex: Skarmory, Kingambit, Heatran, Iron Treads)
Dark Resist
-Pokemon that resist Dark type moves. (Ex: Kingambit, Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant)
Grass Resist
-Pokemon that resist Grass type moves. (Ex: Skarmory, Raging Bolt, Heatran, Slowking-G, Archaludon)
Fire Resist
-Pokemon that resist Fire type moves. (Ex: Dondozo, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Primarina, Garganacl, Walking Wake, Gouging Fire)
Water Resist
-Pokemon that resist Water type moves. (Ex: Rillaboom, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake, Toxapex, Dondozo)
Fighting Resist/Immune
-Pokemon that are immune to or resist Fighting type moves. (Ex: Clefable, Gliscor, Gholdengo, Dragapult, Tornadus-T, Volcarona)
Fairy Type
-Pokemon that are Fairy types (duh). (Ex: Clefable, Enamorus, Iron Valiant, Hatterene, Primarina, Azumarill)
Fairy Resist
-Pokemon that resist Fairy type moves. (Ex: Volcarona, Heatran, Slowking-G, Gholdengo, Skeledirge, Corviknight)
Knock Off Absorber
-Pokemon that don’t mind losing their items. (Ex: Gliscor, Skarmory, Clefable)
Speed Control
-Pokemon that either have a high speed stat, can viably run a Choice Scarf, or have access to priority. (Ex: Dragapult, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Rillaboom, Dragonite, Weavile, Barraskewda)
Wallbreaker
-Pokemon with high attacking stats, a good movepool, and a solid offensive typing to rip through defensive cores. (Ex: Gholdengo, Walking Wake, Weavile, Samurott-H, Archaludon, Gouging Fire, Heatran, Hydrapple, Ursaluna, Keldeo)
Cleaner
-Pokemon that can finish off games after the enemy team is chipped and can function in the early game. (Ex: Dragapult, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Zamazenta, Enamorus)
Mixed Attacker
-Pokemon with good overall attacking stats and movepools to hit on both the physical and special side. (Ex: Iron Valiant, Dragapult)
Wincon
-Pokemon meant to click setup moves and use their attributes to sweep. (Ex: Kingambit, Volcarona, Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder)
Suicide Lead
-Pokemon meant to set up hazards or wear down the opposing team. (Ex: Glimmora, Samurott-H, Dragapult, Deoxys-S)
Keep in mind that there are some Pokemon that can do a role better than others, and just because they can perform one of these roles doesn’t make them an OU viable pick.
For example, Delibird can set up Spikes, spin hazards away, and is immune to Ground, but no one would consider it on their team, unless they wanted to lose.
Determining how good something is or if they have a niche is a skill that comes from metagame knowledge which I’ll get to later. Also, just because something can technically perform a role, doesn’t mean they are good at it. For example, Kingambit can run Stealth Rocks, but you lose to the number 1 spinner in the tier Great Tusk, and it has better things to be doing. Meowscarada resists Ghost, Dark, Grass, and Water, but it can only really switch into those moves once or twice due to its frailty. So keep that in mind.
Some roles are more appreciated on certain builds than others, or are not needed. For example, Superman teams don’t need hazard removal or Hatterene because they’re already designed to mitigate hazard damage. Hyper Offense doesn’t need walls or Unaware Pokemon because their focus is on all-out offense.
If you want to know what roles are the most important, check out Pinkacross’ teambuilding video. He explains the what and why of each role such as Knock Off, Pivots, Speed Control, and resists, among other things I’ve talked about here. Now let’s talk about tips.
When building in any tier, it is important to know what are the top threats, their checks, and what pairs well with them. You also need to consider current meta trends. What is currently popular right now on the ladder or tournament scene? What is on the rise? How could I counteract it? Could I run a niche pick/set as a response? For this, I recommend playing some mid-to-high ladder games. If not, you could talk with other players on the OU chat, the discussion threads, the Discord server, or watch some top level replays. Then look at your team and ask, how does it do vs Kingambit? Gholdengo? Dragapult? Gouging Fire? Rain? etc.
As I said before, there are Pokemon that function on specific team structures. Hyper Offense is about keeping up the pressure, so you wouldn’t run a Toxapex on that team. Superman teams do not need hazard removal, but they also require boots or spikes immunity to fit. So running Booster Valiant wouldn’t make sense. You also don’t wanna be running rock weak Pokemon without Boots. I’ve seen plenty of teams with out-of-place picks that don’t fit the archetype they’re in. Knowing what fits again, takes metagame knowledge.
There even used to be a sample team that with this problem. It was a Boots spam team, and it used Specs Kyurem. Obviously Specs Kyurem is an amazing set, but running a hazard weak Pokemon on a team without hazard removal is a terrible idea. It is not me discrediting the builder, it is to show that we all make mistakes. No matter the skill level.
What it means is the first thing you brainstorm before building a team. It could be a certain Pokemon, a set, or a core. So naturally you build around that idea. What you shouldn’t do is clump together 2 or more of the same concept on the same team. I’ve seen teams where the problem is they trying to cram in as much sauce as possible. This leads to teams that are clunky, in-cohesive, and have lots of holes. I am guilty of this at times. Take this team for example.
Here I started with the standard Sub-Kyu + Hatt + Tusk core to keep hazards up, along with Gking to bring it in. This is simple and effective enough, but then I run Rillaboom to support the team with Grassy Terrain and make Kyurem seemingly more invincible, along with a Scarf Meowscarada to abuse the Terrain for stronger Flower Tricks.
The problem here is I tried combining multiple ideas together
(Hatt + Kyu + Tusk) (Kyu + Rilla) (Rilla + Meow)
resulting in the team lacking focus and being flawed. The concepts themselves are good, but you want to stick to one so you have room to teambuild vs the rest of the metagame. Especially in a meta as unforgiving as SV OU. To use another food-based metaphor. Let’s say you’ve been served a tasty burger, and you put some sauce on, it goes from delicious to heavenly. Now imagine that same burger, except you dumped the whole bottle in because you love the sauce so much. You can’t even taste the patty anymore, now its just a sauce sandwich.
View attachment 597628 Tip #4: Make Sure The Team Can Make Progress (or you end up being this guy)
Unless you are running hard stall, you must have a way to make progress. It is important to have checks to the metagame threats, but you should avoid trying to build to check everything. There is no team that doesn’t have counters, otherwise people would just run that one team. Instead, make sure you have a way to make progress first before considering defensive checks. It could be through hazards + Knock, Future Sight, or wallbreakers. It could also be offensive synergies like Dragapult + Weavile.
If you’re seeing all this and comparing me to the No Fun police, just know that having fun is an important skill for teambuilding. It is an opportunity to innovate and explore the metagame. To experiment with different sets and EVs. Different Tera types, different Pokemon. If you’ve seen me talk about Magnezone, Slither Wing, and Empoleon, you know I’m not bullshitting you. No point in doing something if you don’t have fun with it. The rewards for building a successful team are there, like the Johto Slowking team that got me to Top 200 on the ladder.
To close this off, here are imo, the Top 5 Pokemon in the metagame (besides Kyurem). Slotting any of these Pokemon on your team can patch several holes you may encounter.
#1 Kingambit View attachment 597635
The irony of the tier king having the word “King” in their name. Kingambit is absolutely the best and scariest Pokemon in the tier. Anyone who’s played the tier for just a couple games knows what it does. Endgame sweeps, bulky Ghost resist, Sucker Punch, amazing bulk, could run a variety of items and could be slapped on basically any team. When teambuilding, having counterplay to Kingambit should be a priority.
“Nah I’d win” - Kingambit
#2 Dragapult View attachment 597634
Imo, Pult is Top 2 in the metagame. There is a reason it was the most used Pokemon in the first week of SPL. Its speed and offensive typing holds together many teams. Giving them the necessary tools to thrive in a hostile metagame. Pult can either rkill or check most of the metagame. Pult is also excellent at making progress early game with T-Wave/Wisp, setting up a lategame clean. Other sets like Specs, Sub-Hex, DD, Band, and Screens also contribute to its versatility. Even defensively, it provides teams with a spinblocker and a check to Volcarona. Pult patches up a lot of teambuilding holes alone. Which is why your team must have either a ghost resist or another check to it like Heatran or Clefable.
“Child endangerment go brr.” - Dragapult
#3 Slowking-Galar View attachment 597633
For months now, Slowking-Galar has been one of the best and most used Pokemon on Superman and Elephant-Style builds. Single handedly defending them from the likes of Kyurem, Volcarona, Raging Bolt, Rain, Sun, and Serperior. It does this all while being the best pivot in the tier with Future Sight, Regenerator, and its fantastic bulk. It could also use its vast movepool to either cripple something with T-Wave/Toxic, snipe Gliscor with Ice Beam, hit Ghold/Kingambit with Flamethrower, or Trick Sludge/Scarf. Even if Kyurem leaves tomorrow, I would consider it a Top 5 pick. Make sure you have ways of breaking past this.
“Brain Blast!” - Slowking-Galar
#4 Gliscor View attachment 597632
Despite the presence of strong Ice moves from Weavile, Meow, Kyurem, and Deo-S, Gliscor remains on the top. It provides immense value on teams due to being able to blanket check half the tier. You could customize Gliscor however you please. Physically defensive, specially defensive, mixed, speed creep Raging Bolt or Heatran, or Volcanion. It could be your spike setter, your rocker, your pivot, your wincon or your stallbreaker. It also makes Gliscor potent in team preview since they will not know the set right away. SD Glis is one of the scariest wincons as it exploits players’ instinct to swap to their own Gliscor or Clefable. Easy the most versatile defensive glue in the tier. Make sure your team can play around Gliscor and its hazards.
“I have become Death, Destroyer of Worlds.” - Gliscor
#5 Weavile View attachment 597631
One of my most controversial takes yet but Weavile is very close to its SS counterpart. Out of the two Knock + T-Axel button mashers, Weavile is who I’d consider to be the best. Imo it is by a large margin. The fact Weavile was on 8 teams from week 1 of SPL while Meowscarada wasn’t even used at all should say something, despite Meow imo still being a good Poke. Weavile is not only threatening offensively, but it threatens several Ice weak threats like Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, Tera Flying Boulder, Rillaboom, and Scarf Enamorus via Ice Shard. At +2 and with rocks, Weavile outright OHKOs Skarm with Tera Ice Axel. It could even tech Low Kick for Gambit and Ting-Lu, while punishing Tera Steel attempts from Tusk. Like with Dragapult, having a fast, strong offensive presence is important, because you’ll otherwise succumb to a setup sweeper after your check to it is dead, or find yourself unable to break the opposing team.
If you have anything else to add that I might’ve missed, don’t be hesitant to do so. I’m open to different perspectives and ideas. This was a big project. So that will be it for me for a while, but before I go, I’ll give y’all a hint on who I will make a write-up for next.
This needs to be stickied. This needs to be it's own, locked thread, and locked as a valuable resource.
But it won't.
Cause this site loves complexity, despite the rules. Now I get to search like mad for this thread whenever I make a team, just like with the "Role Compodium" thread that also refuses to be stickied.
This needs to be stickied. This needs to be it's own, locked thread, and locked as a valuable resource.
But it won't.
Cause this site loves complexity, despite the rules. Now I get to search like mad for this thread whenever I make a team, just like with the "Role Compodium" thread that also refuses to be stickied.
I mean, i agree that the post is good and deserves to be stickied and posted as a separate thread for more people to see it but. You know you can just bookmark the post right? Finding it again should not be maddening. you also can add labels to your bookmarks to help with sorting through them.
(the button is up above the post on the right from desktop version, just beside the post #!)
I mean, i agree that the post is good and deserves to be stickied and posted as a separate thread for more people to see it but. You know you can just bookmark the post right? Finding it again should not be maddening. you also can add labels to your bookmarks to help with sorting through them.
(the button is up above the post on the right from desktop version, just beside the post #!)
Do you understand how much simpler you've made team building for me? Seriously, part of the problem was the chore of looking through a constantly shifting forum for a thread that may or may not be highlighted. Just couldn't be bothered.
Between that and finding out how to recolor my theme, my time here is pretty eventful!
EDIT: Apparently I've must have hit that button a few times without paying attention, there's a few random threads on here!
I cannot stand frauds and cheaters, success is something you work hard for, not something you get by circumstance
hence why i hate magnezone
magnezone is a beast, magnezone is an abomination and magnezone is WEAK
pursuiters helped beginners , magnezone gatekeeped OU from them
for 18 years, magnezone was cheating its way into ou carried by a single ability,
and to think we nearly saw the death of magnezone back in 2021, to think it just moments away from ending 2022 in underused
now, we have stopped showing magnezone the light it stole from underdogs, the light that shouldn’t have even been flashed its direction when this all started
this generation will be revert magnezone to back to magneton in gen 1, at long last the parasite of smogon is feeling the pain and the struggles of lower ranked pokemon, far more better than it without magnet pull
the chains that kept it from thriving without magnet pull are now keeping it from doing ANYTHING
zone has been doing the same thing over and over again while OU has adapted, changed and thrown away old titans that held it back
Now there are few steel types it can truly stop, the steel killer betrayed its own kind and now its going to pay the ultimateprice
february the 1st, magnezones story ends, for good
i don’t have any new cobalion sets for you all today
however, iron crown can do this
Iron Crown @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Tachyon Cutter
- Protect
- Future Sight
- Volt Switch
future sight pivots are cool, especially when they have part steel typing, offensive spreads can be ran with ”usable” effect but everything crown does is “usable“ at best, its overall typing is good enough for a mixed defensive pokemon too
Archaludon is dumb as heck. Definitely a miserable mon to face and likely broken. But why go after the whole weather? Is rain dominating tournaments or top of the ladder? Is Pelipper broken? We’re really considering that direction?
Yes - especially the former! I'm compiling replays for the TrainerAid round robin right now and not only is rain very commmon but also the winrate is unusually high!
Yes - especially the former! I'm compiling replays for the TrainerAid round robin right now and not only is rain very commmon but also the winrate is unusually high!
The thing I’m really interested in is does Sun or Rain have an advantage over eachother. It really matters who preserves their setter the best and maneuvers around rocks. Each can pressure eachother hard with Rocks, while Rain can pressure Sun hazard removers with Barra and Sun can pressure Rain hazard removers with Walking Wake. I just find it all interesting.
Archaludon is dumb as heck. Definitely a miserable mon to face and likely broken. But why go after the whole weather? Is rain dominating tournaments or top of the ladder? Is Pelipper broken? We’re really considering that direction?
i personally don't have issues with rain per se, but archaludon + barraskewda is an obscenely strong core, kingdra is another new addition that's solid for punching holes in teams to soften them up for the aforementioned core, raging bolt and walking wake can both take advantage of rain and heavily punish opposing sun, and there are plenty of slow pivots and eject button mons to bring in any of these wacky breakers. again, not saying it's broken at the moment, but it's very strong and you need to play well against it
My opinion on all this Archaludon talk is it seems a bit too strong. The typing is great. Stamina is what pushed is over the edge for me. It's just a lot to worry about with switching into it or trying to deal with it defensively. And then you are just afraid to attack it sometimes because you don't want to give it a defensive boost for free. You can find checks and counters to it, until it Terastilizes and then you're screwed depending on what it is. You can't poison or Clear Smog it because it is a Steel type. If this thing gets a few special attack and/or defense boosts up, it can be very hard to deal with. There is simply a lot of pressure on the teambuilder with it. I don't know if that makes it banworthy, but it feels like it's at least very borderline.
I don't care about rain as a whole. Telling people to "git gud" is probably reductive, but most of it has a lot of counterplay. There are also ways to stall out rain turns. The breakers can be powerful, but not really more than Sun in this gen. It's a strong archetype and that's it.
The current suspect for Kyurem is fair. Personally, I don't care if the thing stays or goes. It's a bit tricky to deal with, and there is a set for every counter, but most of the time you can figure out what the goal of the set is fairly quickly. I don't know. The thing just doesn't feel too much more oppressive than it should be to me. If it is banned, I'd be happy. If it is not banned, I'd be happy.
The thing I have the most trouble with is Deoxys Speed. It outspeeds the entire tier. You can't rely on scarf or strong priority on lead because it might be Focus Sash. Just what switches into Psychoboost, Ice Beam, Knock Off, and Close Combat? I can deal with 3 of the 4, but not all 4. Kind of like how Darkrai was with Hypnosis. You have to assume all the possibilities. Then by the time you find out, there are often holes in your team or multiple spikes on your side of the field. And even if you have something for it, your Deoxys Speed counter lead probably loses to some other lead that team has. Maybe it's a skill issue on my end, but teams with that thing are very hard for me to lead off against. It feels like I have to get every prediction right.
On my journey for the Kyurem suspect my thoughts turn more towards Gouging Fire and Kingambit. Theyre probably the two pokemon that are truly at the top of the list for me. Kyurem is a threat but im pretty mixed; I shared my thoughts on it in the other thread a few days ago. Right now as I ladder I'm having a really hard time with the two mons I mentioned though. is an incredibly powerful setup sweeper that can run a surprising number of sets to fish against team that dont have Dondozo. Honestly my biggest issue with this mon right now isn't DD + Three attacks, but rather the DD + Morning sun set. I've seen fast variants of that as well as bulkier setup up varients that both seem to be really impactful. Gouging FIre's good options against Sucker Punch really make it stand out in my eyes since really it just feels like it needs to get out a single setup turn to potentially steamroll your team. Booster speed mons (, , ) can deal with it still but decent team pairings can cause the opponent to use those boosters early and give Gouging Fire the clean endgame sweep, sun or not. really feels like it is still shaping the tier as well as easily just picking what it loses to with tera. My team contains a bulkier Great Tusk and I still feel like I have a really hard time dealing with Kingambit. Does every team still just need many answers to this mon, as well as the skill to outplay sucker punch? I have to feel like that alone is enough to make it quite overpowered.
You simply need to be careful around it. You can't just click U-turn and think you have no risk around it. It's the 7 turns of rain that is the issue, not arch. It has exploitable areas, such as speed and sp.defense.
On my journey for the Kyurem suspect my thoughts turn more towards Gouging Fire and Kingambit. Theyre probably the two pokemon that are truly at the top of the list for me. Kyurem is a threat but im pretty mixed; I shared my thoughts on it in the other thread a few days ago. Right now as I ladder I'm having a really hard time with the two mons I mentioned though. is an incredibly powerful setup sweeper that can run a surprising number of sets to fish against team that dont have Dondozo. Honestly my biggest issue with this mon right now isn't DD + Three attacks, but rather the DD + Morning sun set. I've seen fast variants of that as well as bulkier setup up varients that both seem to be really impactful. Gouging FIre's good options against Sucker Punch really make it stand out in my eyes since really it just feels like it needs to get out a single setup turn to potentially steamroll your team. Booster speed mons (, , ) can deal with it still but decent team pairings can cause the opponent to use those boosters early and give Gouging Fire the clean endgame sweep, sun or not. really feels like it is still shaping the tier as well as easily just picking what it loses to with tera. My team contains a bulkier Great Tusk and I still feel like I have a really hard time dealing with Kingambit. Does every team still just need many answers to this mon, as well as the skill to outplay sucker punch? I have to feel like that alone is enough to make it quite overpowered.
I do think that when comparing Gouging Fire to Volc compare to Volc, it's a bit easier to figure out the set, and that you do have to put a bit of effort into positioning and set up since that can end up being a little awkward, which is something the moth has less issues with. Gouging Fire is obscenely strong, but not uncounterable and honestly while a bit of a matchup fish, it's not nearly as hard to figure out what type of set it is compared to something like Volcarona. Volc is probably a bigger issue than it, since it's way more of s matchup fish, amd typically harder to deal with due to always having tera blast coverage paired with quiver dance which is definitely a scarier setup move to deal with compared to ddance. Speed booster bulk up tusk deals with Gouging Fire decently well, as do the aforementioned Valiant and Iron Boulder. Point being Gouging Fire is technically a fairer Volc when you think about it due to the fact Gouging Fire technically has to put more effort in to get similar results.
Honestly though if Kyurem goes, Roaring Moon needs to be looked at because that mon is dumb as all hell still and still has no answers
If I had a quarter for every time a Gen 9 evolution of a past Pokemon that dominated OU because hitting it made it stronger, I'd have 2 quarters, but it's odd how it happened twice.
If I had a quarter for every time a Gen 9 evolution of a past Pokemon that dominated OU because hitting it made it stronger, I'd have 2 quarters, but it's odd how it happened twice.
If I had a nickel for every time a past form of a legendary beast was going to be suspected, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it's happened twice
is an incredibly powerful setup sweeper that can run a surprising number of sets to fish against team that dont have Dondozo. Honestly my biggest issue with this mon right now isn't DD + Three attacks, but rather the DD + Morning sun set. I've seen fast variants of that as well as bulkier setup up varients that both seem to be really impactful. Gouging FIre's good options against Sucker Punch really make it stand out in my eyes since really it just feels like it needs to get out a single setup turn to potentially steamroll your team. Booster speed mons (
, 
, 
) can deal with it still but decent team pairings can cause the opponent to use those boosters early and give Gouging Fire the clean endgame sweep, sun or not. 
really feels like it is still shaping the tier as well as easily just picking what it loses to with tera. My team contains a bulkier Great Tusk and I still feel like I have a really hard time dealing with Kingambit. Does every team still just need many answers to this mon, as well as the skill to outplay sucker punch? I have to feel like that alone is enough to make it quite overpowered.
