Probably already considered, but if it has not I would like to bring up the idea of a "bulky setup" set for corviknight. It would most likely consist of brave bird, body press, iron defense, and roost with a tera fighting like the other iron defense mons. Just think it could be interesting with all the new iron defense sets lately.
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Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
We actually removed a Bulky Setup corviknight with Bulk Up earlier in the gen; I doubt Iron Defense would be much better than that was.
I just noticed that Probopass always runs magnet pull, which makes sense for the boosting set so you trap a physical steel type and iron defence up, but bulky attacker I just feel like you will very rarely get a use out of magnet pull, it's really not a lot of stuff you're successfully trapping. A lot of steel types have either ground or fighting coverage too which doesn't help it, it's usually not strong enough to ko in one hit to be able to survive the following ground move in case of air balloon. In general magnet pull is worse when you can tera out of it, but at least then you force tera which is solid though. I think sturdy could be more useful for that set in most games vs set up sweepers which there are a lot of.
Thought about it some more, going over every steel type-
Corv- Faster and can have body press, or can U turn on you and you're doing nothing if you can't set up
Gholdengo - Can only be trapped if it tera steels
Heatran- You do well enough against but can lose a lot of health to earth power.
Kingambit- You do very well against, even if they tera flying you have rock stab.
Empoleon- Flip turns on you
Hisuian Goodra- Has eq and hydro pump
Iron Treads- Ground type, they can beat even air balloon
Jirachi- Can U turn out or drain punch and you don't do much anyways
Scizor- U turns or cc's
Forretress- they get to set up hazards on you
Magnezone- You get trapped and they volt switch out
Revavroom- You don't do much to and they have high horsepower and can even set up on you
Lucario - yeah
Tinkaton- You do pretty well against
Bronzong- Body presses or eqs
Copperajah- Can have superpower and eq, you can trap choice locked variants in some cases though.
Klefki- free hazard setup
Alolan sandlash- you do fairly well against but has eq
Alolan dugtrio- can do well if you're air balloon
Orthworm- body presses you
Persekerr- cc and U turn
So basically, it's really niche on this set. It's like 4 Pokemon you can actually trap and do well against, in the whole format.
Thought about it some more, going over every steel type-
Corv- Faster and can have body press, or can U turn on you and you're doing nothing if you can't set up
Gholdengo - Can only be trapped if it tera steels
Heatran- You do well enough against but can lose a lot of health to earth power.
Kingambit- You do very well against, even if they tera flying you have rock stab.
Empoleon- Flip turns on you
Hisuian Goodra- Has eq and hydro pump
Iron Treads- Ground type, they can beat even air balloon
Jirachi- Can U turn out or drain punch and you don't do much anyways
Scizor- U turns or cc's
Forretress- they get to set up hazards on you
Magnezone- You get trapped and they volt switch out
Revavroom- You don't do much to and they have high horsepower and can even set up on you
Lucario - yeah
Tinkaton- You do pretty well against
Bronzong- Body presses or eqs
Copperajah- Can have superpower and eq, you can trap choice locked variants in some cases though.
Klefki- free hazard setup
Alolan sandlash- you do fairly well against but has eq
Alolan dugtrio- can do well if you're air balloon
Orthworm- body presses you
Persekerr- cc and U turn
So basically, it's really niche on this set. It's like 4 Pokemon you can actually trap and do well against, in the whole format.
Thank you for your suggestion and detailed reasoning. I disagree, I think Magnet Pull is much better than Sturdy on Probopass in singles. However, this will no doubt be discussed among the staff and others may agree with you. This is just my opinion.
Firstly, I would argue that Sturdy is itself very niche as its high bulk means that it only gets OHKO'd by strong Fighting and Ground moves. Water-type moves need to be extremely powerful to OHKO it; for example, Specs Ludicolo's Hydro Pump never OHKO's even non-AV Probopass. Bulky Attacker Probopass is usually Air Balloon so Ground moves are not relevant most of the time. Since Probopass never gets Leftovers (it's Assault Vest or Air Balloon on the Bulky Attacker set), Sturdy immediately becomes useless on taking any chip damage, whether it's Stealth Rock, a random U-turn, etc, unless you have Wish or Healing Wish support to heal it back up.
Secondly, I think your analysis undersells Bulky Attacker Probopass's performance against other Steel-types. Many of the lost matchups are won if the Probopass Tera Fighting's (admittedly the Steel-type can also tera to escape from Magnet Pull, but it's still significant if you really want to remove a specific Steel type). But even if you don't, it still does reasonably well against many mons:
Hisuian Goodra, Copperajah, and Orthworm don't always have moves that can hit you. You outspeed Copperajah so you cleanly beat variants without Superpower if Air Balloon is intact. Scizor, Magnezone, Lucario, Perrserker, and Alolan Dugtrio can be choice locked into unfavourable moves that let Probopass defeat them. Klefki can indeed get hazards on Probopass, but thanks to Prankster and its good defensive typing it will usually get Spikes up anyway; at least you can reliably remove it with a mon that cares relatively little about being paralysed. It's not on your list, but it beats Dialga handily. In general, Magnet Pull can be useful even if you lose the 1v1 from full health; maybe their Iron Treads already took damage earlier during the battle, and you can now finish it off with your Air Balloon Probopass. If nothing else, you take away their ability to double switch.
Finally, I'm near certain that Steel is the most common tera type in randbats, and for good reason. So Magnet Pull can be useful even if your opponent doesn't initially have a trappable Steel-type.
Tera is true but I wasn't about to go over every single steel tera, I've never seen it in action after probably 6k+ games across different accounts, it's a very rare situation, they have to get tera steel use it and you don't have it revealed yet.
I agree that sturdy is niche on such a bulky mon, but I think it would at least be good against setup sweepers (which there are a lot of) as a last resort. I think using tera to trap something is rarely valuable, unless the mon is such a big threat to your team but then they can just tera themselves if it's such an asset.
Klefki usually gets hazards up but you're giving them all 3 spikes + possible paralysis on you, not a good place to be after finishing it off, usually you want to switch in something that can prevent it from setting everything up, or punish them for going for passive plays, Probopass is hardly a good option in most situations imo
I did forget Dialga though, does do solidly against it too, but overall still very niche. You're very rarely gonna be put in a situation to trap one of those few valid options or get lucky enough for them to lock themselves into an unfavorable move. Or you need to scout to make sure they don't have the powerful move to get you, losing momentum + you reveal your trap + you get hit with those strong moves on the switch, not a very good trade. I do see the value of it but it's so niche on that set, trapping without being a setup threat and you're slow, not a good combination
is it possible to enforce flip turn on banded floatzel? i find it, wave crash and ice spinner to be the only must moves so i think it being a 50/50 between crunch and low kick would work better
uhh another bug my meowstic only has 3 moves
Flip Turn is now enforced on Choice Band Floatzel, and Barraskewda as well. Thanks for the suggestion.
Thanks for the report, we will figure out the cause and fix it.
I was just looking through the newest commit, had a couple of minor questions (though I assume these sets are still being tested and will be changed depending on winrates):
1. What's with swapping Crunch out for Throat Chop? I can't imagine the utility of blocking sound moves would be that large, even with all the Psychic Noise and Alluring Voice added, while the 20% Defense drop could mess up checks. (In comparison, replacing Sludge Bomb with Wave provides extra power to lots of things that want it, while Supercell Slam didn't replace Wild Charge in a lot of instances)
2. Is Tera Blast Ice really that good on Keldeo? I get that it hits three extra types super effectively now, but I guess I'm not used to seeing Tera Ice on anything other than fast Electric types because of its utter lack of defensive utility. I wonder if Electric or Poison could be options, as they would flip two weaknesses while still giving coverage for one resist of each STAB, or Flying + Air Slash for the good neutral coverage with Fighting.
1. What's with swapping Crunch out for Throat Chop? I can't imagine the utility of blocking sound moves would be that large, even with all the Psychic Noise and Alluring Voice added, while the 20% Defense drop could mess up checks. (In comparison, replacing Sludge Bomb with Wave provides extra power to lots of things that want it, while Supercell Slam didn't replace Wild Charge in a lot of instances)
2. Is Tera Blast Ice really that good on Keldeo? I get that it hits three extra types super effectively now, but I guess I'm not used to seeing Tera Ice on anything other than fast Electric types because of its utter lack of defensive utility. I wonder if Electric or Poison could be options, as they would flip two weaknesses while still giving coverage for one resist of each STAB, or Flying + Air Slash for the good neutral coverage with Fighting.
I think the big thing wrt swapping out Crunch for Throat Chop is it completely reverses some matchups that otherwise beat the Throat Chop users completely. Kommo-o has switched to only Soundproof for the same reason. A Pokémon like Wigglytuff, whose only Fairy-Type attack is Alluring Voice, no longer becomes able to beat Chien-Pao, and that’s viewed as very valuable right now. Fishing for Crunch drops is nice sometimes, but Throat Chop is more consistent. It either definitely flips a matchup vs a would-be counter or does nothing special, while Crunch just occasionally flips a check matchup into a 2HKO.
We actually barely replaced Sludge Bomb with Sludge Wave because 20% extra poison is viewed as much more valuable than 5BP. That’s a different situation because it’s a really, really small increase in power vs pretty common utility on a move the Pokémon is usually clicking a lot anyway. Poison is also a better secondary effect than a defence drop quite considerably since it lasts for the whole battle, and Poison-Type Pokémon tend to be thrown out early because of their good defensive profiles. Supercell Slam is just a bad move lol, it was included rarely where it fit (such as on Pokémon who always have something good for Ground-Type opponents) but the drawback of hitting a Ground-Type being so big makes it a much worse move than Wild Charge on most Pokémon.
I share your concerns with Tera Blast Keldeo a bit. It’s much, much stronger than Icy Wind, but we’ll need more playtesting to see how well Keldeo can get CMs up without a good defensive Tera. I’ve got it once and it couldn’t find a way onto the field at all.
It really sounds like you’re setting up a bunch of Alluring Voice users for failure. I was told Psychic Fangs wasn’t a possibility on Basculin despite it hitting quite a few Pokémon like Toxicroak and Koraidon harder than Double Edge simply because Cacturne exists, and now you’re replacing Dazzling Gleam and Psychic/Psyshock entirely on some Pokemon with sound versions and giving Pokémon Throat Chop and Soundproof to counter them. Psychic Noise is somewhat less of an issue since most Throat Chop users are Dark anyway (though many of them Tera to a different type, often Poison or Fighting), but I think lots of Alluring Voice users, at least the Fairy types, should get Dazzling Gleam as a possible alternative so they can actually switch into Dark type attacks like they ought to be able to. This argument also extends to Sylveon, as the sudden proliferation of anti-sound makes its Hyper Voice set similarly exploitable. You should consider giving it Tera Blast again, or possibly Moonblast.
sunflora's sunny day set is currently awful to roll, since its only non-setup damaging move is earth power, which makes it very easy to take advantage of. while i understand the surprise value of a chlorophyll sunny day can be valuable, specs sunflora already has coverage to nuke a counter switching in, and positioning for a sunflora sweep is just really hard given it only gets five turns to do damage and is so incredibly slow.
if keeping sunny day is desirable, at least give it (or at least let it have the option to get) a non-solar beam stab, so that its not ridiculously easy to take advantage of after its set is revealed.
if keeping sunny day is desirable, at least give it (or at least let it have the option to get) a non-solar beam stab, so that its not ridiculously easy to take advantage of after its set is revealed.
Sunflora 49.59% -1.438 14979 30208
since the beginning of gen 9 to the moment we added this specific sunny day set, sunflora had been in the bottom 3 winrates of all pokemon. since it now runs in the middle of the pack with a fairly balanced winrate, keeping the set as is seems desireable
I personally disagree with this. It has made sunflora a more significant sweeper in the late game. Although it isn't able capable of just coming in during the game and nuking things with specs and usually has to wait til the end, it is still a valuable role to have. Also yeah, the winrates speak for itself.
We intend to discuss and test Alluring Voice vs Dazzling Gleam on several mons once the format settles a bit and we have some data. Possibly making them a roll? At least on the fairy types (Alcremie and Wigglytuff); non-STAB users probably prefer to bypass sub.
Sylveon will definitely keep Hyper Voice though, the damage difference is too significant.
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if you hit a ground or other elec-immune ability you just take a fat 50% and probably die; supercell slam is actually pretty bad on the vast majority of Pokemon, and we only put it on the three that both have great answers to ground already and can afford to take the risk (Eelektross, Guts Luxray, Bulk Up Ice Punch Electivire).
Is Sheer Force Trailblaze Feraligatr intentional? A 50 BP Grass coverage move that doesn't raise speed seems pretty bad
65; it's gatr's best move for waters
i think power herb meteor beam iron jugulis would a decent option to add, the mon is choice locked normally and has no setup however now it can get a big hit off with meteor beam and get a +1 special attack boost without having to be locked into 1 move
could you add temper flare to great tusk? i think it's a good coverage option and hits corv and skarm really well
It’s actually weaker vs those Steel/Flyings than just clicking Close Combat. Technically not if they swap into Headlong first, but that’s naturally pretty niche and not worth losing its other coverage for.
we had a testing of a brand new event called a Set Building Workshop in our room that brought this up as a potential change to iron jugulis, among a few other things. community consensus is that iron jugulis is probably fine not doing anything other than specs and scarf
I think Smeargle should get Healing Wish instead of Lunar Dance. Smeargle tends to use itself up early in the game, at which point the PP restoration is mostly unhelpful. In fact, it’s more often detrimental because Healing Wish and Lunar Dance get stored for the next switch-in that can use them, so Lunar Dance can often get used up restoring only PP on an otherwise healthy Pokémon. Just about the only real upside to Lunar Dance in my opinion is the interaction with Oricorio which is quite rare and not even that much of a plus since your opponent does get a full heal for another team member out of the deal.
Also, how come Enamorus doesn’t have a Contrary Stellar Tera Blast set? It’s easily the strongest Contrary user available, and is currently tearing up OU with that combination. I heard that there was a reason that went something like “it already has fairy ground coverage which is good enough” but Enamorus already has a Contrary Tera Blast set without ground coverage. Flipping that Tera type from Flying to Stellar seems like a no brainer. You might even add Moonblast as a roll over Play Rough since Stellar Tera Blast boosts SpA too.
Finally, we were joking around in the PS chat about how Luvdisc gets Endeavor now in DLC2 and could potentially engage in Sash Endeavor Aqua jet Luvdisc (SEAL) strats, and honestly? Luvdisc is so bad that I think something like that is worth a try. There are two ways this could be approached. One is a level 100 set with Endeavor, Endure, and two of Flip Turn, Aqua Jet, and Whirlpool; the Flip Turn sets would naturally get Heavy Duty Boots when they aren’t in the lead slot, and the Jet/Whirlpool version could get, uh, Wide Lens or Liechi Berry or something, I dunno. The second way is a genuine level 1 set with Sash, Endeavor, Aqua Jet, and two moves from Icy Wind, Whirlpool, Charm, and Flip Turn. Both sets would naturally have minimized bulk IVs and EVs (when they’re Sashed, anyway).
I know FEAR-like sets have been rejected in the past with the argument that their fixed level makes them impossible to balance, but Luvdisc is already impossible to balance for the very same reason. I also know it sounds gimmicky and unreliable, but Luvdisc has set an incredibly low bar thus far with win rates consistently hovering just above 40% since it hit level 100. An Endeavor set doesn’t have to bring it up to 50% WR to be worth adding; it just has to raise it at all. With that in mind, even the threat of level 100 Endure Endeavor Luvdisc being able to severely damage or even outright 1v1 various Choice and AV users that can’t outspeed or outprioritize it will naturally make the non Endeavor set do a little better through fear factor (SEAL factor?) alone.
Seriously, we need to explore the depths of Luvdisc’s potential, and not just its depths, but its underdepths as well. To that end, I do have one more idea: a Mirror Herb set with Tera Blast, Hydro Pump/Surf, Waterfall/Liquidation and Ice Beam. Its Tera Type would have to be either Grass or Electric—probably best to start with a roll between the two. Hell, you could even throw Stellar in there as it could maximize Luvdisc’s chance at at least one strong, clean hit. The idea with Tera Blast and double Water coverage is to be able to take advantage of any offensive boosts whether they’re physical or special. Waterfall is viable over Liquidation here, I think, as Luvdisc’s naturally high speed should give it plenty of opportunities to score flinches (and it will really appreciate free turns), especially with Mirror Herb helping ensure it doesn’t get outsped by Dragon Dance and the like. Sure, Luvdisc can’t OHKO Salamence with Ice Beam unless it has a Stellar boost, but Mirror Herb would at least give it an extra chance to try. The obvious offensively-natured intent of this set means Hydro Pump would be worthwhile over Surf, but revealing that your Luvdisc is Mirror Herb the moment you click any Water STAB isn’t ideal.
Both the Endeavor and Mirror Herb sets have the potential to turn Luvdisc from a very fast but otherwise passive generic Water type into an effective emergency blanket check against a wide swath of the meta’s most game-ending threats, which is often what players try to use it for anyway, since it’s not good for much else. I don’t think either of them will be enough to bring Luvdisc to 50%, but if Luvdisc’s sets are always going to be bad no matter what, you might as well try giving it sets that are good at being bad.
P.S.
If any of that sounds like it would need too much hard-coding, I’d just like to say that Luvdisc of all Pokémon deserves some extra effort to make it work and that each of those options would still be less intrusive to the spirit of randbats than that stat-boost-on-switch-in idea that almost went through.
Also, how come Enamorus doesn’t have a Contrary Stellar Tera Blast set? It’s easily the strongest Contrary user available, and is currently tearing up OU with that combination. I heard that there was a reason that went something like “it already has fairy ground coverage which is good enough” but Enamorus already has a Contrary Tera Blast set without ground coverage. Flipping that Tera type from Flying to Stellar seems like a no brainer. You might even add Moonblast as a roll over Play Rough since Stellar Tera Blast boosts SpA too.
Finally, we were joking around in the PS chat about how Luvdisc gets Endeavor now in DLC2 and could potentially engage in Sash Endeavor Aqua jet Luvdisc (SEAL) strats, and honestly? Luvdisc is so bad that I think something like that is worth a try. There are two ways this could be approached. One is a level 100 set with Endeavor, Endure, and two of Flip Turn, Aqua Jet, and Whirlpool; the Flip Turn sets would naturally get Heavy Duty Boots when they aren’t in the lead slot, and the Jet/Whirlpool version could get, uh, Wide Lens or Liechi Berry or something, I dunno. The second way is a genuine level 1 set with Sash, Endeavor, Aqua Jet, and two moves from Icy Wind, Whirlpool, Charm, and Flip Turn. Both sets would naturally have minimized bulk IVs and EVs (when they’re Sashed, anyway).
I know FEAR-like sets have been rejected in the past with the argument that their fixed level makes them impossible to balance, but Luvdisc is already impossible to balance for the very same reason. I also know it sounds gimmicky and unreliable, but Luvdisc has set an incredibly low bar thus far with win rates consistently hovering just above 40% since it hit level 100. An Endeavor set doesn’t have to bring it up to 50% WR to be worth adding; it just has to raise it at all. With that in mind, even the threat of level 100 Endure Endeavor Luvdisc being able to severely damage or even outright 1v1 various Choice and AV users that can’t outspeed or outprioritize it will naturally make the non Endeavor set do a little better through fear factor (SEAL factor?) alone.
Seriously, we need to explore the depths of Luvdisc’s potential, and not just its depths, but its underdepths as well. To that end, I do have one more idea: a Mirror Herb set with Tera Blast, Hydro Pump/Surf, Waterfall/Liquidation and Ice Beam. Its Tera Type would have to be either Grass or Electric—probably best to start with a roll between the two. Hell, you could even throw Stellar in there as it could maximize Luvdisc’s chance at at least one strong, clean hit. The idea with Tera Blast and double Water coverage is to be able to take advantage of any offensive boosts whether they’re physical or special. Waterfall is viable over Liquidation here, I think, as Luvdisc’s naturally high speed should give it plenty of opportunities to score flinches (and it will really appreciate free turns), especially with Mirror Herb helping ensure it doesn’t get outsped by Dragon Dance and the like. Sure, Luvdisc can’t OHKO Salamence with Ice Beam unless it has a Stellar boost, but Mirror Herb would at least give it an extra chance to try. The obvious offensively-natured intent of this set means Hydro Pump would be worthwhile over Surf, but revealing that your Luvdisc is Mirror Herb the moment you click any Water STAB isn’t ideal.
Both the Endeavor and Mirror Herb sets have the potential to turn Luvdisc from a very fast but otherwise passive generic Water type into an effective emergency blanket check against a wide swath of the meta’s most game-ending threats, which is often what players try to use it for anyway, since it’s not good for much else. I don’t think either of them will be enough to bring Luvdisc to 50%, but if Luvdisc’s sets are always going to be bad no matter what, you might as well try giving it sets that are good at being bad.
P.S.
If any of that sounds like it would need too much hard-coding, I’d just like to say that Luvdisc of all Pokémon deserves some extra effort to make it work and that each of those options would still be less intrusive to the spirit of randbats than that stat-boost-on-switch-in idea that almost went through.
We feel that the potential up-sides to Lunar Dance outnumber the fact that it can't be stored if a Pokémon has used up its PP. It's actually a conversation we had in auth during DLC set design and the majority feel that Lunar Dance is more game-winning than a stored up Healing Wish tends to be. Pulling off Healing Wish chains can be fun, but they're hardly common, whereas there are so many important 8PP moves, or even things like Revival Blessing, in Gen 9 that PP restoration has legitimate utility that is worth keeping.
Stellar-Type Enamorus is also certainly a set that's been suggested. For now we've replaced Taunt with Zen Headbutt, because it gives Enamorus significantly better coverage. That needs to be tested for the time being anyway. Perhaps Stellar-Type will be tested in the future, current majority opinion is Enamorus' super effective coverage outranks potential perfect neutral or capability to go mixed. (I actually fall on your side with this one, I'd like to see Stellar-Type Enamorus, but it wouldn't be tried out right now regardless).
We currently have plans to test both Endeavor and Whirlpool Luvdisc. My personal opinion is the former will be good and the latter won't be, but others think the inverse of that, so we'll just add one in January and add another one in February. We will not be making Luvdisc level 1, because the main thing Luvdisc has going for it is hilariously high speed thanks to level disparity (usually high levelled mons in rands are slow, Luvdisc has above average speed which is blazing at level 100). Making Luvdisc level 1 is taking away its one redeeming feature in favour of a set that will fail half the time because of things like hazards or multi-hit moves. Currently we're not planning to make it Endure + Endeavour either. Maybe that opinion will change when it comes time to add it in January for the testing period (or February depending on which move we try out first), but current plans would be just adding them as possible fourth moves on the current WishTect set. Luvdisc still has a pretty low base HP stat, and Endeavor from mid-range will take a huge chunk out of most Pokémon in the format, so I think Endeavour has a lot of value there even if Luvdisc isn't at literally 1HP thanks to Endure. WishTect + Endeavor together gives it a valuable level of versatility where it can keep the team healthy through to the mid-game and then probably trade itself for a huge chunk of damage when you no longer need the wish support.
On the other hand I certainly do get the appeal to having Endure to survive a SD or NP sweeper's hit and put them on 1HP, but then that doesn't win if your team doesn't have another super fast mon or priority user anyway. It's a cool last ditch effort, but one that would pay off relatively rarely, and therefore not to the extent that I feel it's worth losing WishPass which contributes every battle.
Mirror Herb is not something rands is interested in. We constantly get recommended movesets like Swagger + Mirror Herb and decline them every time. I understand the case being made with Luvdisc, where "it's so bad anyway so just plug it into the slot machine and see if it happens to get a perfect matchup", but if any Luvdisc were Mirror Herb they all would be and your opponent would soon know that, so you'd have to be making hard switches into potential setup mons in order to steal their boost, at which point Luvdisc is probably not 1v1ing them anyway since it can't OHKO much of the format at +2.
i was told smeargle uses lunar dance for code simplicity, since healing wish normally gives choice scarf on other pokemon. having it not do that would be a hardcode, so lunar dance is used instead. i also believe healing wish is much better, but the hardcode was deemed unnecessary