have you tried out uubers? magearna isn't broken there, but it's the single best mon in that meta for its versatility, and there's plenty of indication that it would still be too much for ou to handle. as for chi-yu, i'm very interested in hearing why you would want something like that because i literally cannot think of any change that dlc2 could possibly bring to make chi-yu balancedany other unbans?and
are my candidates
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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My spicy opinions time. Keep in mind 5 for me just means “should absolutely START unbanned”, not that I’m convinced it’s not gonna be broken. Realistically, everything on this list could still be broken.
3 - I think it’ll probably be too much still, but the overall stat creep of the tier means it’s slightly easier to both pressure it with damage & take hits from it early on before it snowballs.
1 - Bax + Alolan Ninetales is so degenerate and easy to use, and I don’t see any world in which that stops being the case in the DLC.
5 - Don’t get me wrong, it needed to be banned and I’m happy it was. However, it was banned because it was impossible to make progress against with the current power level of the tier while simultaneously being able to outlast any of our limited forms of removal and generate constant Spikes pressure. High chance increased power levels & better removal options in the DLC will make this not true anymore, and if not, it at least needs to be tested to be sure.
1 - God no. Way too fast for how strong it is, AND it can pivot? AND it can set up? AND its typing is broken?
2 - I’m gonna be real with you; only reason I didn’t give it a 1 is because it’s technically a new Pokémon and it’s only been tested in 1 meta. I think it’s ridiculous, but there’s room for error in my judgement. Weird to have it on this list and not Chi-Yu when I think this thing is more broken but eh, I don’t want Chi-Yu back either tbh.
3 - Probably still too much, but it’s likely easier to exploit that pre-transformation turn now with the overall higher metagame power level, and more bulky water options make it more reliant on Tera to get past them. Getting Tapu Fini back would be a big blow to it too, but we don’t know if that’s happening.
3 - It’s been manageable before & I’m not convinced Knock Off was what broke it in the Teal Mask meta, so it may be manageable again in the Indigo Disk. May. Even when it was manageable, it wasn’t exactly the healthiest presence in the tier.
2 - Cheesler is broken with good terrain setters. Too easy to use & too consistent. I don’t think unbanning Gliscor is gonna save this thing from being unhealthy.
1 - This thing singlehandedly invalidates balance and forces the meta to polarized extremes, & the very nature of its ability + STAB combo makes it completely unwallable without Blissey-tier special bulk. If it couldn’t set up, use priority, AND recover health while having incredible physical bulk and the ability to boost its special bulk, then the breaking power by itself would be manageable, but it’s really not, and I don’t think it ever will be really.
2 for both forms - They break, they clean with SD-boosted priority, they pivot, you can’t wall em, & you can’t even consistently punish Blueshifu with contact abilities anymore. I’d rather have Palafin than either of these guys because at least Palafin has 1 switchin of being deadweight.
5 - Just due process because of how it was banned. I’m not ACTUALLY convinced it’s gonna be balanced with Tera.
3 - Honestly I kind of wavered between 2 & 3. It’s not the worst thing on this list or anything, but I really think the steel typing & extra special bulk just make it way too consistent at IronPress compared to its counterpart. I could see it being tested again, but ehhhh
5 - Highkey the worst thing on this list and it needs to be properly tested. Is it gonna be balanced? Dunno, but nothing it has on paper is enough to warrant it staying banned without retrial.Other retests - unironically losing Extremespeed & Shift Gear is a huge blow for Genesect. I think Tera is still gonna break it though, but if it does come back somehow, it should maybe maybe MAYBE be retested. And not just because it’d be funny to see it get banned again, I promise.
I've spoken about this in the past but I have a pretty liberal view about DLC unbans, I feel it's generally better to give Pokémon a try before blanket disallowing them because I feel DLC2s drops such as certain potent starters as well as a few key legendary drops (perhaps Tapus?) will radically reshape the OU landscape and I think recalibrating after the relative mess that DLC1's ban wave was is a good call. Even if a lot of Pokémon end up banned again there are key ones that won't and ones that will be very important vs new threats so I think the best call is to cast a wide net. But council, please do not pull that "but we don't have the support" crap, if something is broken it's broken no matter what a survey says and you guys are smart people. My votes:
2 - I think this Mon is not conducive to a balanced metagame due to how it interacts with bulkier teams, Taunt + Rage Fist takes a good deal of agency away from players and essentially guarantees only offensive styles exist. 2 over 1 because a lot has changed since its ban and its power is not too absurd but overall its a pretty slim chance this thing will be a positive presence
4 - this should have gotten a suspect rather than quickban from the start, people always spam screens week 1 and it may fit well into DLC2 not only due to the new drops but also as it kind of gatekept a lot of other issues, removing it make Gliscor and roaring moon very difficult to deal with
5 - the Gliscor meta was by far the best iteration of DLC1, mirrors were stupid but this thing carried balance and stall on its back, I really hated it back when it was around but hate living without it even more. I think I was wrong to advocate for its ban before & several Pokémon here such as Bax and rapid strike would single-handedly make it ok
1 - plot + sheer force + that type and stats is absurd, Thundurus-T is annoying enough
3 - could go either way. Overall less Ogerpon in the meta feels better than more right now but very likely that could change and the Zacian ability is a little cracked
5 - this Mon was balanced for 95% of OU, was only questionable in the very particular climate it was banned in and is unlikely to be an issue week 1. Would have voted higher if it was an option. This Mon makes Rillabroken more bearable (until it clicks Uturn) which is also a huge plus.
4 - same deal as Manaphy where it would be a lot more of an issue if Ogerpon didn't make rain dogshit right now, but those stats are still pretty crazy. But you can nail it before it transforms or take advantage of the free turn, unless it's flip turn where it has to choose that over a more potent setup set. Worth a shot especially as I'm pretty confident it would be taken care of quick if it presents an issue again
1 - this will never be balanced in a meta with Rillabroken.
1 - see above but also is probably still stupid even without it
Dark 5 - worse Mon than rapid strike, this is basically a shitmon. Don't see what it could do wrong in OU.
Water 3 - less clear cut for sure. Single-handedly balances Gliscor which is a big plus but those surging strikes are pretty nasty
5 - checks powerful fairies and both of the widely hated steels of the tier. QD could still be inappropriate but let's see
5 - may still be an issue but only a hair better than zam-h, could be a cool tool for balance.
5 - been discussed to death, tested in OUPL, and the council has already said if it's broken they'd deal with it quickly. No conceivable harm testing this would do. And it's immune to stored power!
I didn't write in any more drops, considered Magearna but I've played enough UUbers to see it's still pretty damn tough to deal with. I also wrote in the "other considerations" that Rillaboom is more broken than half this slate which may have been hyperbole but please keep an eye on this extremely centralizing and ridiculous wallbreaker + knock spammer that enables the very worst cheese gameplay between stored power and unburden seed crap
2 - I think this Mon is not conducive to a balanced metagame due to how it interacts with bulkier teams, Taunt + Rage Fist takes a good deal of agency away from players and essentially guarantees only offensive styles exist. 2 over 1 because a lot has changed since its ban and its power is not too absurd but overall its a pretty slim chance this thing will be a positive presence 4 - this should have gotten a suspect rather than quickban from the start, people always spam screens week 1 and it may fit well into DLC2 not only due to the new drops but also as it kind of gatekept a lot of other issues, removing it make Gliscor and roaring moon very difficult to deal with 5 - the Gliscor meta was by far the best iteration of DLC1, mirrors were stupid but this thing carried balance and stall on its back, I really hated it back when it was around but hate living without it even more. I think I was wrong to advocate for its ban before & several Pokémon here such as Bax and rapid strike would single-handedly make it ok 1 - plot + sheer force + that type and stats is absurd, Thundurus-T is annoying enough 3 - could go either way. Overall less Ogerpon in the meta feels better than more right now but very likely that could change and the Zacian ability is a little cracked 5 - this Mon was balanced for 95% of OU, was only questionable in the very particular climate it was banned in and is unlikely to be an issue week 1. Would have voted higher if it was an option. This Mon makes Rillabroken more bearable (until it clicks Uturn) which is also a huge plus. 4 - same deal as Manaphy where it would be a lot more of an issue if Ogerpon didn't make rain dogshit right now, but those stats are still pretty crazy. But you can nail it before it transforms or take advantage of the free turn, unless it's flip turn where it has to choose that over a more potent setup set. Worth a shot especially as I'm pretty confident it would be taken care of quick if it presents an issue again 1 - this will never be balanced in a meta with Rillabroken. 1 - see above but also is probably still stupid even without it Dark 5 - worse Mon than rapid strike, this is basically a shitmon. Don't see what it could do wrong in OU.Water 3 - less clear cut for sure. Single-handedly balances Gliscor which is a big plus but those surging strikes are pretty nasty 5 - checks powerful fairies and both of the widely hated steels of the tier. QD could still be inappropriate but let's see 5 - may still be an issue but only a hair better than zam-h, could be a cool tool for balance. 5 - been discussed to death, tested in OUPL, and the council has already said if it's broken they'd deal with it quickly. No conceivable harm testing this would do. And it's immune to stored power!I didn't write in any more drops, considered Magearna but I've played enough UUbers to see it's still pretty damn tough to deal with. I also wrote in the "other considerations" that Rillaboom is more broken than half this slate which may have been hyperbole but please keep an eye on this extremely centralizing and ridiculous wallbreaker + knock spammer that enables the very worst cheese gameplay between stored power and unburden seed crap
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natdex main commenting in ou thread? wtf dude dont listen to this pet mod player. anyway heres what i voted:
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im sure that not a single thing will change that would make ape balanced down here, yeah you can hit it hard but guess what happens when you do hit it
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we dont need to give this another chance as long as tera is around, very obnoxious to build and play around with its large amount of opportunities to set up and win games and i dont think we need to drop it down bc we justifiably quickbanned it early. shouldnt drop down
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cool guy, it would be nice to have him back in the new meta to have a safety blanket against any broken + strong mons in general
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come on man
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still gonna be obnoxious as it was when it was legal
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i dont want to have rapidshifu but actually broken down here lol
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still hate this mon but wouldnt bat an eye if it was quicktested, would prob be quickbanned / suspected again tho lol
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see bax reason, we dont need strong and skilless cheese
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please stop.
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single shifu? still broken but you can play pretend with ur cplay and tera fairy stuff + meta is pretty offensive so it might not have that much opportunities to set up and stuff if SD, band is broken tho lol
rapid shifu? imo it didnt need to be banned so quickly and i wouldve preferred a suspect. what people believe the mon would do it can but not as effectively as ppl make it up to, it is not hard to stop and check this mon
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I HATE MOONBLAST!
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see moon reason but less on the hate
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anyone with a functional nervous system should know that it is not worth the time to test it, it will just add a broken HO sweeper that you would have to use larp counterplay for (see: ppl almost loading AV zama in oupl to deal with it) and is just too strong and in all honesty, uncheckable. do not free darkrai
tl;dr free the mons that are obviously not unbalanced and wouldnt be an issue and keep the ones that would be
also dont ban kyurem when it comes in dlc2 :D
- 1im sure that not a single thing will change that would make ape balanced down here, yeah you can hit it hard but guess what happens when you do hit it
- 2we dont need to give this another chance as long as tera is around, very obnoxious to build and play around with its large amount of opportunities to set up and win games and i dont think we need to drop it down bc we justifiably quickbanned it early. shouldnt drop down
- 4cool guy, it would be nice to have him back in the new meta to have a safety blanket against any broken + strong mons in general
- 1come on man
- 2still gonna be obnoxious as it was when it was legal
- 2i dont want to have rapidshifu but actually broken down here lol
- 3still hate this mon but wouldnt bat an eye if it was quicktested, would prob be quickbanned / suspected again tho lol
- 2see bax reason, we dont need strong and skilless cheese
- 1please stop.
- 2 and 4single shifu? still broken but you can play pretend with ur cplay and tera fairy stuff + meta is pretty offensive so it might not have that much opportunities to set up and stuff if SD, band is broken tho lol
rapid shifu? imo it didnt need to be banned so quickly and i wouldve preferred a suspect. what people believe the mon would do it can but not as effectively as ppl make it up to, it is not hard to stop and check this mon
- 5I HATE MOONBLAST!
- 3see moon reason but less on the hate
- 1anyone with a functional nervous system should know that it is not worth the time to test it, it will just add a broken HO sweeper that you would have to use larp counterplay for (see: ppl almost loading AV zama in oupl to deal with it) and is just too strong and in all honesty, uncheckable. do not free darkrai
tl;dr free the mons that are obviously not unbalanced and wouldnt be an issue and keep the ones that would be
also dont ban kyurem when it comes in dlc2 :D
It’s the other way around.
i dont want to have rapidshifu but actually broken down here lol
palafin is broken as shit. Urshifu is way less comparatively
yomaalt you know I respect you but why the fuck did you put matchup moth and we bear bears as semi-acceptable choices but not gliscorAlright guys new survey dropped time to-
Oh wait, it's for drops this time? Y'know what I feel like seeing how far i can push shit and get people to agree with me..
First and foremost, the guys i don't like (1)
Then, thebroken guys but I'm being biasedguys who I think should get a second chance!! (2-3)
Ok now for the "Free em they ain't do NOTHING!!" camp, i present to you, the worst lineup physically thought out while having a semblance of metagame knowledge
I will be back in 2 business hours - 6 business days with an oeuvre so incredibly influential, that critics in the unforseeable future will be using said work as a base line for all essays in professional setting. In due to, I shall present you all with a text that explains how reshiram, genesect and solgaleo wouldn't break OU in half. I'm hoping to see as many of you there!~
Huh, I think I'm forgetting someone... was it? Just keep it banned. Anyways, I'll see you all soon!
It's because Chien Pao having 2 tries in OU and a suspect instead of a quick ban when it's clear it's way more broken than chi-yu is fucking disgusting to me and I think chi-yu deserves to have another attempt at ruining the tier, equal rights you know?
I think they’re both pretty dumb tbh but Urshifu is dumber. Urshifu has secondary fighting STAB, actual coverage options to hit bulky waters without need for Tera, access to Swords Dance instead of just Bulk Up, immunity to scouting with Protect unless it’s specifically holding punching glove AND using Surging Strikes, and it doesn’t give up a free turn to use it, which is absolutely key against a competent player who is capable of exploiting the opening provided by Palafin. Pal does have some benefits of course, namely how Jet Punch being Aqua Jet with a built-in Choice Band is insanely cracked, but just looking at their base stats side-by-side doesn’t really tell a complete picture of these two.
1LDK is beating the racism allegations
Chiyu having an ability that drops enemy SpDef 25% using 130 BP stab coming off 135 spa that can't be spammed without switching: banworthy
Rillaboom getting an automatic 30% boost to its 120 BP stab coming off barely less than 135 atk, recoil always offset by terrain: apparently ok?
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100 speed is dog water the idea of that being the only operating difference is laughable
among approximately a million other things wrong with this comparison, rillaboom already has the terrain boost, but chi-yu can get an extra 1.5x boost from sun
100 speed is literally better than 85 speed what are you talking about
-Fire is a significantly better offensive typing than grass
-Rillaboom is slower than chi-yu
-Rillaboom does not have a weather that further boosts its stab
-Rillaboom does not have a secondary stab
-Rillaboom does not have a ghost resist
-Rillaboom has less special bulk than chi-yu
-Rillaboom is vulnerable to rocky helmet, static, and - despite grassy terrain - is not, in fact, immune to wood hammer recoil
I mean technically yes but the problem with chi yu was never "it's too fast" this is revisionist history.
things that beat band rillaboom:
tera'd dozo
zapdos
one of our many dragons
moth
pdef dirge
pdef ghold
ace
Things that beat specs chi-yu
Tera fire/water blissey
assault vest fully spdef invested hamurott because it's 2hko'd without investment lmao
you're forgetting about dachsbun! free chi-yu, the bread doggo counters it
also, how the fuck did we spend a page and a half of discussion on chi-yu in december 2023. what are we even doing anymore
dachbun is 2HKO'd unless full spdef, and relies on wishtect as its only recovery, and chi yu is spamming dark pulse with that 80% chance to flinch. The funny calcs fish wins again
You did not just compare Rillaboom to mfing Chi-Yu. A base 85 Speed mon with a shit offensive typing that half of its checks can outspeed and one-shot despite being 2HKOd by Tera Grass Wood Hammer. Not to mention it actually has countets. 4x resistances are not uncommon at all.
Heatran, Molt, Dnite, Corv, and a little Pokemon you should know by now caused uhh
A M O O N G U S S
The only Chi-Yu checks were AV Ttar, SpD Moon, and SpD Dachsbun. One is Ttar so not very good, the other would not wanna run a suboptimal set, and the last one is fucking Dachsbun.
How does one even come to this conclusion?
Speaking of fake checks...
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit in Grassy Terrain: 174-205 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 212-250 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth in Grassy Terrain: 154-181 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 282-332 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
And sure you can switch in a flame body bird and hope for a 1 in 3 burn. At the cost of your boots.
"ah yeah you can beat the knock off user with a bunch of Pokémon whose survival depends on not losing their boots"
Heatran is a real counter, unless it's High Horsepower of course. And I will give you that Passive Corv never dies to it and doesn't care about knock.
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