Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Now lets see how this same turn goes with Gholdengo.

(opponent switches in gholdengo)

Defog gets blocked

and now you either switch out and pray you don't get blasted by Make It Rain, or you gamble that they don't switch in an iron valiant counter after a Nasty Plot or something.

(This is Mold Breaker Hawlucha against Gholdengo)

Hawlucha used Defog!
The pointed stones disappeared / spikes are gone

Make it Rain has a 87.5% chance to OHKO Hawlucha on Timid, but Modest always OHKOes it, that means Hawlucha can't switch in directly at an non-defensive Gholdengo. So Focus Sash is prefered on this set. Fire Tera will avoid the OHKO. Heavy-Duty Boots will prevent the damage from Stealth Rock if Hawlucha needs to be at full health.

 

[pika pal]

I agree. It will not. Speaking for me personally, I’m still going to lay spikes and I’m still going to spin block. Not really concerned about Corviknight Defogs since he’s passive af (free switch to breaker). Also the good spikers / rockers beat the removal mons anyway.

Not concerned about Corviknight Defog is kind of ignoring the value of removing hazards for even one turn. Your breaker literally needs to be anywhere from 12-30% stronger to hit a switch-in without/less hazard support, so the fact that Defog worked is already in Corv's favor even if it immediately gets sacced and doesn't survive to do a Slow U-Turn (which isn't exactly an unrealistic thing for Corviknight since its own Hazard Profile can afford Leftovers for one thing).

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 186-219 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The other thing is that beating the Removers isn't as urgent a requirement if Hazard removal even becomes feasible. One of the trade-offs to Spikes is (theoretically) that they do a lot of consistent damage if you take more turns to set them vs how much work they are to remove. Naturally this makes the concept of Spin-blocking a lot more valuable to Spikes teams, put a lot more pressure on them to position well when Defog became a thing (since you had to pressure them out of it/have Taunt ready rather than being able to reactively stop it), and why they're so huge when Gholdengo stops them for free on top of the narrow removal. We did get several good new Spikes users this generation, to which I argue that still isn't what changed the Hazard Dynamic compared to Gholdengo being an Iron Ball on the already constricted Hazard Removal: Of the Pokemon that gained it this Gen but didn't have it in their last appearance and would realistically see use with it in an OU set, we have: Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Mew, Garchomp, Gliscor (banned), Greninja, Magearna (banned), Meowscarada, and Sandy Shocks. 7 Spikers vs 3-4 Removers isn't as dire as it sounds considering what those ratios were like in previous Generations, and looking just at Corviknight as the central example, 4 of the still-OU guys can't make any more progress against Corv with their Spikes sets or a Standard + Spikes set than it can against them, which is a winning ratio for the Defog-Spikes turn count as well.

"Free" is a label I use because Gholdengo HAPPENS to stop Rapid Spin and Defog, but no one is short-sighted enough to think this is the only or even primary reason for a Mon with 12 Resistances/Immunities, extremely well-distributed stats, and a movepool that includes excellent Coverage/Recovery/"Better Draco" STAB is an OU staple (hell most of the Pro-Gholdengo arguments focus on its defensive checking of several big threats that GaG stopping Defog doesn't factor into heavily).

Another point, not strictly an accusation against your post but one that bothers me, is how the Gholdengo sentiment seems to argue at times that if its removal won't fix the Hazard situation then action against it isn't worthwhile. Even if the problem is still bad, Gholdengo undeniably makes it WORSE while having several other negative impacts on the tier (literal free Utility/Recovery casting use since Taunt is blocked, dominance over anything that is not a strong direct attacker). People having to spin-block with Dragapult or Tera Ghosts is a MASSIVE shift in blocking removal for obvious reason, and this is assuming no other Ghosts rise up to significance without Gholdengo in the tier, whether for Spin-blocking or simply having niches that aren't worth it competing with the tier's best Pokemon (yes I say this over Gambit, who is broken but less tier-defining than tier-stomping as terms I used in a previous post)

 

[Smashburn]

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Call me a nerd, but isn't Reuniclus returning in DLC 2? Even though Reuniclus is weak to Gholdengo, it is nonetheless a Magic Guard user. Maybe it can aid use in the battle of hazards for this generation. Hell, maybe even a Heavy-Duty Boots + Regenerator set could see usage (all 3 of Reun's abilities are all fucking amazing -- I completely forget it has both Regenerator and Overcoat as well as Magic Guard).

 

[June Heat]

Call me a nerd, but isn't Reuniclus returning in DLC 2? Even though Reuniclus is weak to Gholdengo, it is nonetheless a Magic Guard user. Maybe it can aid use in the battle of hazards for this generation. Hell, maybe even a Heavy-Duty Boots + Regenerator set could see usage (all 3 of Reun's abilities are all fucking amazing -- I completely forget it has both Regenerator and Overcoat as well as Magic Guard).

I’d say Magic Guard as having a more offensive Pokemon against Garg, and Gliscor with Toxic would be nice.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Zamazenta loses to Sableye

Sableye uses encore to Heavily Screw over Body Press Zamazenta

Zamazenta has to read a switch-in with Crunch

Sableye burns Zamazenta into oblivion and recovers off damage dealt

Sableye is a very good Pokemon

sableye loses to top metagame threat lokix

Lokix knocks off its item and is immune to prankster encore + willowisp because of its dark typing

Lokix uses leech life to recover damage from sableye's foul play

lokix beats tera steel sableye with tinted lens

LOKIX IS A VERY GOOD POKEMON

 

[quacc]

(This is Mold Breaker Hawlucha against Gholdengo)

Hawlucha used Defog!
The pointed stones disappeared / spikes are gone

Make it Rain has a 87.5% chance to OHKO Hawlucha on Timid, but Modest always OHKOes it, that means Hawlucha can't switch in directly at an non-defensive Gholdengo. So Focus Sash is prefered on this set. Fire Tera will avoid the OHKO. Heavy-Duty Boots will prevent the damage from Stealth Rock if Hawlucha needs to be at full health.

To be fair, that's not really how you use Hawlucha.

A lot of hazard setters, such as Ting-Lu, have poor matchups into Hawlucha, so you switch directly on THOSE mons and THEN defog as Gholdengo switches in. This way, you can just retreat and not take damage on Hawlucha.

There are suicide leads, but in these cases, you would kill the suicide lead and then find an opportunity to defog. Hawlucha even outspeeds Gholdengo if you need to.

That being said, I don't like the restricted role of Hawlucha, as it really only does one thing. I personally like rocky helmet on Hawlucha to even somewhat check Kingambit if hazards are out of the picture, but focus sash isn't a good item on this set in my opinion.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

There's some other moves Gholdengo can use against other Pokemon with different Tera types

(Assuming this is Gholdengo's Choice Specs set)

Thunderbolt with Electric Tera has 93.8% chance to OHKO a specially defensive Corviknight and 56.3% chance for Dondozo, Thunder always OHKOes both of them.

Ice Tera Blast OHKOes Dragonite, also allows Gholdengo to benefit from Snow as well.

Steel Beam is Gholdengo's extreme nuke coupled with Steel Tera, Metal Coat / Iron Plate and Nasty Plot. Unlike Make it Rain, it doesn't lower it's special attack, however it can miss (5% chance). Recover allows to use it even more times since it takes 50% of Gholdengo's Max HP each time it uses it. Flash Cannon in other hand is weaker and has no drawbacks.

Psychic smites Toxapex with Tera Psychic. Psyshock can counter Assault Vest Toxapex as well as Blissey itself.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Gholdengo Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 433-511 (66.4 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Psychic Gholdengo Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 684-807 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Lightniong]

I

View attachment 574335

The OU metagame is in shambles

Everything is getting banished into the Ubers realm

Hazards aren’t getting removed

Please, my room is full of rocks and it’s a pain to get through

Corviknight is not defogging

Cinderace is using court shenanigans

Sableye is the “Savior” of this metagame

Why are people selling sableye

Gholdengo is very controversial

God help it hurts

Please

 

[Napoli Burns]

I also notice you didn't even attempt to refute my last point

answering to the same things over and over is boring, using utility moves like wow encore or sub for dealing not only with gambit but also other threats, from balance to stall isn't really a big deal.

this is adapting, not putting 3 counters of gambit in every team; only the fact gambit has viable checks like tusk (only real spinner in the tier, has multiple, viable sets) make him different from ursaluna bloodmoon that required nearly an unplayable pokemon like bronzong to be checked or rmoon that was nearly impossible to outspeed after a dance

on offensive teams to not fold to it

so? is normal for an offensive team have problems against a pokemon with a priority or a lot faster pokemon like the ones with swift swim. Bax, oger flame, sneasler was able to destroy almost every playstyle with low effort. Pokemon before gen 9 wasn't only about offensive, frail teams and ban everything able to threat them.

ust because a player is qualified doesn't mean their opinion is worth listening to.

so players who are able to play spl/high ladder and ALSO, care about the state of ou aren't able to understand when a pokemon deserve to be tested or not lmao

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I do think Gliscor is a potentially safe thing to drop back in if Weavile gets Axel back, since its gonna be really good if it has triple Axel, and if weavile is everywhere I think it might be a safe thing to let back into OU even if it constantly lays down hazards since we would have a splashable ice type to consistently answer defensive sets, which is something we do not really have at the moment to deal with Gliscor considering the fact that Tusk was one of the few answers and would have to run ice Spinner and rapid spin on the same set when Gliscor was here which was not optimal at all for Tuskothy to run.

Either way Triple Axel Weavile is gonna be awesome regardless

 

[RaikouLover]

I do think Gliscor is a potentially safe thing to drop back in if Weavile gets Axel back, since its gonna be really good if it has triple Axel, and if weavile is everywhere I think it might be a safe thing to let back into OU even if it constantly lays down hazards since we would have a splashable ice type to consistently answer defensive sets, which is something we do not really have at the moment to deal with Gliscor considering the fact that Tusk was one of the few answers and would have to run ice Spinner and rapid spin on the same set when Gliscor was here which was not optimal at all for Tuskothy to run.

Either way Triple Axel Weavile is gonna be awesome regardless

Triple Axe is awesome but Gliscor will still be dumb since it effectively walls with Tera-Water. Gliscor is just not missed. Leave that clown in Ubers where it belongs.

 

[artificialdeath]

Triple Axe is awesome but Gliscor will still be dumb since it effectively walls with Tera-Water. Gliscor is just not missed. Leave that clown in Ubers where it belongs.

Tbf gliscor dislikes having to tera much more than other broken things do, but you're still right that it gives it an out against things like Weavile

 

[Floatstonemafia]

I do think Gliscor is a potentially safe thing to drop back in if Weavile gets Axel back, since its gonna be really good if it has triple Axel, and if weavile is everywhere I think it might be a safe thing to let back into OU even if it constantly lays down hazards since we would have a splashable ice type to consistently answer defensive sets, which is something we do not really have at the moment to deal with Gliscor considering the fact that Tusk was one of the few answers and would have to run ice Spinner and rapid spin on the same set when Gliscor was here which was not optimal at all for Tuskothy to run.

Either way Triple Axel Weavile is gonna be awesome regardless

Yeah that's definitely not broken checks broken. If gliscor is only balanced because everyone is running weavile, then Gliscor doesn't need to drop, Weavile probably needs to go.

If a single mon is capable of dropping a ubers mon back down to OU, then the mon is still Ubers you're just being forced to pay the gliscor tax because it's allowed in OU for some godforsaken reason.

 

[KamenOH]

Yeah that's definitely not broken checks broken. If gliscor is only balanced because everyone is running weavile, then Gliscor doesn't need to drop, Weavile probably needs to go.

Its lesser Chein Pao. I doubt giving it TA will make it broken enough to warrant a ban. It wasn't ban worthy in Gen 8, why would it be worthy in a powercrept gen?

 

[Floatstonemafia]

The options here are simple. Either Weavile is powerful enough that putting it on any given team is so common that it can single handedly check gliscor down from ubers, or it's not powerful enough and you're running it mainly to put gliscor in check. There's no real middle ground here. Either Weavle is strong enough on it's own merits to be on most teams in which case it should be considered for tiering action, or you're forcing everyone to fit a circle through a square hole just to have gliscor back in OU, in which case Gliscor should not be OU.

Putting a mon on a team has opportunity cost of not having another mon. The problem with your logic is that either the opportunity cost for putting weavile on a team is so low that weavile is present enough to check gliscor, which will be on every single team because it's crazy good role compression and fits multiple roles, which means weavile must be near-omnipresent, or the cost is too high and everyone's doing it specifically because of gliscor. Either case, it's time to warm up the ban hammer.

 

[Magcargo]

The options here are simple. Either Weavile is powerful enough that putting it on any given team is so common that it can single handedly check gliscor down from ubers, or it's not powerful enough and you're running it mainly to put gliscor in check. There's no real middle ground here. Either Weavle is strong enough on it's own merits to be on most teams in which case it should be considered for tiering action, or you're forcing everyone to fit a circle through a square hole just to have gliscor back in OU, in which case Gliscor should not be OU.

Putting a mon on a team has opportunity cost of not having another mon. The problem with your logic is that either the opportunity cost for putting weavile on a team is so low that weavile is present enough to check gliscor, which will be on every single team because it's crazy good role compression and fits multiple roles, which means weavile must be near-omnipresent, or the cost is too high and everyone's doing it specifically because of gliscor. Either case, it's time to warm up the ban hammer.

TBH, I legitimately wonder if Triple Axel Weavile would be worthy of any tiering action when it eventually releases. Comparing it to our good friend, Chien-Pao, the damage calculation differences between CB Weavile and Chien-Pao are actually not too far apart from one another.

Damage Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 237-282 (65.2 - 77.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 190-225 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 222-262 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 210-247 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Weavile even out-damages CB Crash from Chien-Pao with its CB Triple Axel. It is a bit slower, bit less reliable, and most notably, its priority and coverage are drastically weaker. Furthermore, Knock Off damage is weaker on consecutive hits meaning its Dark damage is far weaker than what's shown above. Nonetheless, I fear it may become a bit overwhelming for OU, despite it more than likely being fine.

 

[Wolf-X]

TBH, I legitimately wonder if Triple Axel Weavile would be worthy of any tiering action when it eventually releases. Comparing it to our good friend, Chien-Pao, the damage calculation differences between CB Weavile and Chien-Pao are actually not too far apart from one another.

Damage Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 237-282 (65.2 - 77.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 190-225 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 222-262 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 210-247 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Weavile even out-damages CB Crash from Chien-Pao with its CB Triple Axel. It is a bit slower, bit less reliable, and most notably, its priority and coverage are drastically weaker. Furthermore, Knock Off damage is weaker on consecutive hits meaning its Dark damage is far weaker than what's shown above. Nonetheless, I fear it may become a bit overwhelming for OU, despite it more than likely being fine.

I doubt it, but triple axel would be a huge boost to Weavile. Also knock off while it has its benefits, it loses a lot of power after the first use on each mon which allows for some mons to wall it relatively easy.

Chienpao has overall a bit more bulk, is faster and had slightly better coverage (sacred sword > low kick in OU).
Chienpao could be adamant and still outspeed most of the tier, weavile cant afford that much.

 

[658Greninja]

Now that someone mentioned it, Sableye ironically has a small niche in the tier. Its a spinblocker with priority Encore that can spread Knock and burns all over the opponents team. It also checks Zama since it isn’t weak to anything but Fairy. It has absolutey atrocious matchups like Gambit, Ghold, Valiant, and Clef while only fitting on specific hazard stacking balance teams, but it is an option to consider if you are just fucking bored.

 

[Floatstonemafia]

Sableye has the bulk of wet tissue paper even invested. Everything in the format with offensive investment 2hkos it at minimum. Good luck getting it in to start spreading status. You might do it once, but even physical attackers can largely just attack on the switch, take burn, attack to kill through burn.

Prankster nerfs and general power creep really kind of dumped on Sableye, and it wasn't even that great back when it first got prankster. Even if you get it in safely, half the time they just switch out to a dark type/Gholdengo/Clef and then you're up the creek again.

 

[YubelVT]

answering to the same things over and over is boring, using utility moves like wow encore or sub for dealing not only with gambit but also other threats, from balance to stall isn't really a big deal.

Just admit you're wrong lmao. All of gambit's checks bar Moltres can be completely invalidated with the right tera type (tera fire sucks ass don't fucking run that).

this is adapting, not putting 3 counters of gambit in every team; only the fact gambit has viable checks like tusk (only real spinner in the tier, has multiple, viable sets) make him different from ursaluna bloodmoon that required nearly an unplayable pokemon like bronzong to be checked or rmoon that was nearly impossible to outspeed after a dance

notably, Roaring Moon wasn't banworthy before it got knock off. Kingambit has been banworthy the entire generation. Bloodmoon is also a different beast and also also was handled relatively well by assault vest ttar (special attacking investment makes it even better). This isn't to say that bloodmoon wasn't banworthy. I'll be the first to admit that I said there wasn't a problem with it and I was wrong.

so? is normal for an offensive team have problems against a pokemon with a priority or a lot faster pokemon like the ones with swift swim. Bax, oger flame, sneasler was able to destroy almost every playstyle with low effort. Pokemon before gen 9 wasn't only about offensive, frail teams and ban everything able to threat them.

Bax was completely fine before we got a good veil setter in a-tales (and also arguably before it got scale shot but that's a debate I'm not stepping into), Oger-Flame is only as insane as it is in the context of OU because it has mold breaker, give that thing flash fire and it's a worse waterpon. Sneasler has been obscene since it released, as has Kingambit been, and both have only gotten better despite the meta being COMPLETELY WARPED AROUND KINGAMBIT. And to address your original point, let's take a look at ubers. E-Killer Arceus is a really good pokemon in that tier, but it's also not difficult to answer with offensive threats. Things in that tier are naturally bulky enough that they can take a +2 E Speed a lot of the time if they didn't get completely owned by chip. The difference between E Killer in the context of Ubers and Kingambit in the context of OU is that Kingambit is surrounded by (relatively) frail pokemon, has a higher base attack stat than arceus (120 vs 135), and actually has a defensive profile with good bulk. E Killer Arceus is relatively bulky, but it's also a normal type that relies on tera to gain a defensive profile.

so players who are able to play spl/high ladder and ALSO, care about the state of ou aren't able to understand when a pokemon deserve to be tested or not lmao

Yes it's possible for good players to have bad opinions about the games they play. Wolfey thinks singles sucks and VGC is better, BKC thinks gen 2 is good, Finch has probably said something stupid on twitter once. The list goes on.

 

[Floatstonemafia]

> Yes it's possible for good players to have bad opinions about the games they play. Wolfey thinks singles sucks and VGC is better, BKC thinks gen 2 is good, Finch has probably said something stupid on twitter once. The list goes on.

Side Tangent - Leffen in SSBM is the undisputed master of this. He might be the most mechanically skilled player to ever touch the game. He also wins the award for 'Dumbest Takes by a Top Level Player' every single year. Post-Loss Twitter is a hell of a drug.

It's actually very common for top players to have really dumb takes about their own game, or just straight up oblivious takes. There's a reason why some of the best strategic players or coachs are low elo in most games. It's hard to be both a top level mechanical player and understand everything about the game, and they require different training. It's a lot like having muscle memory but being unable to narrate your own button presses in a game. Top level players know instinctively why something works, they just may not be able to express or even actually know how it works.

 

[658Greninja]

> Yes it's possible for good players to have bad opinions about the games they play. Wolfey thinks singles sucks and VGC is better, BKC thinks gen 2 is good, Finch has probably said something stupid on twitter once. The list goes on.

Side Tangent - Leffen in SSBM is the undisputed master of this. He might be the most mechanically skilled player to ever touch the game. He also wins the award for 'Dumbest Takes by a Top Level Player' every single year. Post-Loss Twitter is a hell of a drug.

It's actually very common for top players to have really dumb takes about their own game, or just straight up oblivious takes. There's a reason why some of the best strategic players or coachs are low elo in most games. It's hard to be both a top level mechanical player and understand everything about the game, and they require different training. It's a lot like having muscle memory but being unable to narrate your own button presses in a game. Top level players know instinctively why something works, they just may not be able to express or even actually know how it works.

You could’ve used a better example, like when ABR said Dynamax was a healthy, balanced aspect of SS when Gen 8 was still brand new. The two examples you’ve listed are more of preferences than bad opinions. Like of course the VGC player thinks VGC is better than singles. GSC is a metagame that you either love its chess-esche gameplay and unique offense, or you don’t.

Though at the end of the day, even if you think a take is wild or absolutely stupid, there is no good or bad take. Its all subjective.

 

[Floatstonemafia]

It is 100% possible to have a terrible take. Any take that is misinformed, not based in reality, or based on extreme self serving desires that negatively affect everyone else are inherently terrible takes. It's understandable how people get there, but ultimately the take is still terrible.

Going back to my leffen example - Leffen made a serious attempt to rally the community behind his terrible take that a game wide rule should be instituted to create an situation where if a match up was played a certain way by one player, the other player (not the one using the strategy, the one on the receiving end) would automatically lose the game. Why this was a terrible take is because it was a rule that explicitly benefited Leffen (because he was the main one doing the strategy to start with and wanted to win more with it), he claimed that it would reduce the prevailance of the strategy that he was already using as a first resort (because people playing his character would be too honorable to abuse it despite it literally creating an auto-win con), and it's only real purpose was to make the way Leffen was playing the best way to play, as well as increase Leffen's personal win rate in the match up.

That's what a terrible take looks like from a top level player.

In context of OU, seriously suggesting that Arecus drops to OU is a terrible take. End of discussion. There is nothing subjective about it. It's a bad idea at every level. No one should take it seriously. That's what makes it a terrible take. Now a lot of takes are dismissed as terrible that are subjective, but it is possible to have a take so bad that it's not subjective in any way shape form or fashion. Suggesting that a specific PU mon may have a role in OU is not inherently a terrible take as long as it's supported, you provide a set, and are very clear about when and how it should be used, it may have merit and should be explored. Stating 'Charizard is an OU mon', providing a low ladder generic sword dance set and a couple of 1300 replays, and calling it a day is a terrible take.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. No one's entitled to it being a good opinion.

 

[June Heat]

Man I legitimately think Weezing-G would be OU if not for Gholdenjoemama. It actually has a ton of switch in opportunities with Levitate, and its unique typing. Plenty of Defog opportunities, and good deterrent with Toxic/Will’o. If not for Mr. Capitalist, which forces you to fun fire move and Tera, Weezing could be great.