Format Discussion Past Gens Random Battle Sets

u'll probably get Choice Scarf on some sets :/
In gens 6-7, Scizor is guaranteed to have Bullet Punch so it can't have Choice Scarf (priority move), and Scyther will get either Choice Band or Eviolite since it is an NFE, so no worries there.

Scyther can already get Choice Scarf in gen 4 (with or without U-turn), so nothing new here, and Scizor will only get it if it doesn't have Bullet Punch. I think Choice Scarf is a pretty suitable item for a 4 attacks Scizor without Bullet Punch. Unlike in later gens, Scizor is not guaranteed to have Bullet Punch in gen 4 randbats (maybe something that might want to be changed as well?).
 
Is there a reason why Lati@s don't have Soul Dew in gens 3-6? Especially in gen 3 (and gen 4 for Latios), where they are Uber levelled, I think they should have the Uber item as well. Other (admittedly less good) Pokemon have their Pokemon-specific items, e.g. Pikachu, Marowak.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Is there a reason why Lati@s don't have Soul Dew in gens 3-6? Especially in gen 3 (and gen 4 for Latios), where they are Uber levelled, I think they should have the Uber item as well. Other (admittedly less good) Pokemon have their Pokemon-specific items, e.g. Pikachu, Marowak.
Basically, for balance purposes. Soul Dew Latis are considered too overpowered in gens 3-5, even at the uber level. It's not considered worthwhile to nerf their levels further than ubers just for the sake of having their sets be the same as their ubers sets, so basing them off their OU sets is preferred.

For gen 6 there is a difficult balance between Megas needing to be represented in rands and the fact that Soul Dew Lati@s are better than Lati@s-Mega. The teams behind gen 6 and 7 ultimately came to different decisions on how to implement that trade off.

It's not the only example of this type of balancing that diverges from ubers -- Gen 4 is the last gen with Baton Pass despite that diverging from Ubers, and in Gen 3 Deoxys doesn't have TwistedSpoon specifically because it would be able to OHKO too many things. Oldgen rands are handled with a little more care than gen 8 because they don't have active level balancing, and I think gen 7 also has slightly more individual level balancing compared with gens older than that.
 
Wait why Cresselia was nerfed to don't have Screens? It was a hard supportive mon that was hard to ko, similar as Uxie, also Claydol was nerfed, this mon isn't that strong in offense to need to new move just to get Screens removed from its sets. In btoh cases it makes u more vulnerable to sucker punch. Also Why BulletPunchless Scizor exist? Is just not good u will get koed in no time (if ur opponent decides to just spam attacks). All in gen4 rands
 

Celever

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Wait why Cresselia was nerfed to don't have Screens? It was a hard supportive mon that was hard to ko, similar as Uxie, also Claydol was nerfed, this mon isn't that strong in offense to need to new move just to get Screens removed from its sets. In btoh cases it makes u more vulnerable to sucker punch. Also Why BulletPunchless Scizor exist? Is just not good u will get koed in no time (if ur opponent decides to just spam attacks). All in gen4 rands
Claydol's set was changed because its other moves are so good. We didn't take Screens off Claydol so that it would get Psychic, but rather so it would always get one of, and more frequently two of, Spin / Rocks / Explosion as these are some of the best moves in the format, and Screens pale in comparison. Being able to add Psychic was a nice afterthought because now something like Screens Psychic Explosion would be impossible and that set being very bad is the only reason it didn't have Psychic at all before.

I actually agree with you about Cresselia and missed when that change was made initially. We are planning to give screens back to it. The decision was made before we fixed screens and now that they're fixed the problem we were trying to fix by removing them isn't a problem (CM Light Screen).

There are exactly two sets without Bullet Punch, Bug Bite / Superpower / Roost / Swords Dance is a good wallbreaker set that beats matchups that it would lose if one of those moves were Bullet Punch, and Bug Bite / Superpower / Pursuit / Roost is a nice defensive pivot set that still effectively creates 50/50s between Bullet Punch and Pursuit because the opponent has to assume you have Bullet Punch (if they are good) while the damage output from its two strongest attacks is great to have since you don't have Swords Dance.
 
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Claydol's set was changed because its other moves are so good. We didn't take Screens off Claydol so that it would get Psychic, but rather so it would always get one of, and more frequently two of, Spin / Rocks / Explosion as these are some of the best moves in the format, and Screens pale in comparison. Being able to add Psychic was a nice afterthought because now something like Screens Psychic Explosion would be impossible and that set being very bad is the only reason it didn't have Psychic at all before.

I actually agree with you about Cresselia and missed when that change was made initially. We are planning to give screens back to it. The decision was made before we fixed screens and now that they're fixed the problem we were trying to fix by removing them isn't a problem (CM Light Screen).

There are exactly two sets without Bullet Punch, Bug Bite / Superpower / Roost / Swords Dance is a good wallbreaker set that beats matchups that it would lose if one of those moves were Bullet Punch, and Bug Bite / Superpower / Pursuit / Roost is a nice defensive pivot set that still effectively creates 50/50s between Bullet Punch and Pursuit because the opponent has to assume you have Bullet Punch (if they are good) while the damage output from its two strongest attacks is great to have since you don't have Swords Dance.
Claydol other moves are good but still i don't see the reason of adding Psychic and removing Screens, yes your mentioned set is bad and Stealth Rocks is good, but u have to consideer that Claydol lacks on Attack and Special Attack Power, and its defenses are good but aren't too troublematic, but with one or 2 screens it can get annoying to beat, more if it has Rapid Spin, not mentioning that this is the gen4 where u need more defensive sets instead of more offensive ones, I think even Toxic would be a way better move for Claydol than Psychic, so it doesn't have to worry if its moves can deal enough damage to don't be ko'd and can punish some switches.
In case of Scizor the game of thinking about which moves can Scizor have can work until unless your opponent knows about your set, also notice that both of the mentioned sets makes u very vulnerable to most of the offensive mons in the tier including nplot/cm users to anything that have fire attacks, without Bullet Punch being enforced, ur opponent might not consideer u a problem and just will keep the offensive, if Bullet Punch is enforced, your opponent will think it twice.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Claydol other moves are good but still i don't see the reason of adding Psychic and removing Screens, yes your mentioned set is bad and Stealth Rocks is good, but u have to consideer that Claydol lacks on Attack and Special Attack Power, and its defenses are good but aren't too troublematic, but with one or 2 screens it can get annoying to beat, more if it has Rapid Spin, not mentioning that this is the gen4 where u need more defensive sets instead of more offensive ones, I think even Toxic would be a way better move for Claydol than Psychic, so it doesn't have to worry if its moves can deal enough damage to don't be ko'd and can punish some switches.
In case of Scizor the game of thinking about which moves can Scizor have can work until unless your opponent knows about your set, also notice that both of the mentioned sets makes u very vulnerable to most of the offensive mons in the tier including nplot/cm users to anything that have fire attacks, without Bullet Punch being enforced, ur opponent might not consideer u a problem and just will keep the offensive, if Bullet Punch is enforced, your opponent will think it twice.
A huge perk of Claydol having Psychic is in what it is able to answer by having it -- it means that Gengar can't safely spinblock, Hitmonchan and Hitmontop can't safely spin its own rocks, and by virtue of its typing allows it to actually threaten top format threats like Machamp and Weezing. It is a fairly specialised move, and I agree that for the most part it wants a defensive set, but it will still usually have a defensively-inclined set. But thanks to high BP moves and those moves being good types, 70 offenses is just enough for it to use its offenses to make its utility moves more effective. We may add Toxic to it too though, and will have more players weigh in on that suggestion. There are merits and downsides to that change.

Scizor is going to be helped by another change we're making soon, which will make it even less susceptible to offensive threats (a U-Turn rennovation in the format as a whole). That change will actually make Bullet Punch more common as a nice side effect, though it still won't be 100%.
 
A huge perk of Claydol having Psychic is in what it is able to answer by having it -- it means that Gengar can't safely spinblock, Hitmonchan and Hitmontop can't safely spin its own rocks, and by virtue of its typing allows it to actually threaten top format threats like Machamp and Weezing. It is a fairly specialised move, and I agree that for the most part it wants a defensive set, but it will still usually have a defensively-inclined set. But thanks to high BP moves and those moves being good types, 70 offenses is just enough for it to use its offenses to make its utility moves more effective. We may add Toxic to it too though, and will have more players weigh in on that suggestion. There are merits and downsides to that change.

Scizor is going to be helped by another change we're making soon, which will make it even less susceptible to offensive threats (a U-Turn rennovation in the format as a whole). That change will actually make Bullet Punch more common as a nice side effect, though it still won't be 100%.
Adding Psychic will reduce the chance of getting better moves, yeah it can be better aganist some of the mentioned mons here, i'm not aganist coverage, but I must when that interfeers with better sets, in this case Screens that u can do in the switch in even u can do these without knowing ur opponent mons, also having Psychic can make u get bad mu vs some mons, like Tropius, Latios/Latias, most pursuit users and if u're unlucky to not roll Equake, well all steel types :/.
 
Well these new changes on DPP, have been really good, still i'm not sure about tropius set and Beutifly one, specially the last one, stun spore does a lot for this v bad mon, it makes it a threat with that move and makes u think twice if u want to switch, rn is a joke and has nothing to save itself still has u-turn, but isn't the same and worse if your opponent did srocks or spikes before, Tropius set is great but Curse isn't too good for this mon, since now becomes slower than a good portions of its checks, Leech seed sucks sadly too, yeah this mon is very defensive but is very slow to make leech seed any useful and this mon doesn't have subs avaible :/, also it can be threatened v easily by any bug unless u suck like ariados, besides that Leaf Storm and Dragon Dance were a good aditions for this mon, and is very appreaciated!
 

Celever

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is a Community Contributor
Well these new changes on DPP, have been really good, still i'm not sure about tropius set and Beutifly one, specially the last one, stun spore does a lot for this v bad mon, it makes it a threat with that move and makes u think twice if u want to switch, rn is a joke and has nothing to save itself still has u-turn, but isn't the same and worse if your opponent did srocks or spikes before, Tropius set is great but Curse isn't too good for this mon, since now becomes slower than a good portions of its checks, Leech seed sucks sadly too, yeah this mon is very defensive but is very slow to make leech seed any useful and this mon doesn't have subs avaible :/, also it can be threatened v easily by any bug unless u suck like ariados, besides that Leaf Storm and Dragon Dance were a good aditions for this mon, and is very appreaciated!
Glad you're enjoying most of the changes so far!!

The idea behind taking Stun Spore off Beautifly is that A) it generated with Life Orb which meant that if Rocks were up and you didn't have removal you could send Beautifly in a maximum of one time, and B) that making it more specialised to trying to trade with the opponent (either as a revenge kill or with a good read with Specs) is ultimately better than trading Beautifly for just a paralysis instead of a KO. Scarf Beautifly also has legitimate cleaning potential, especially if you manage to get it into Swarm range! It's a very bad mon, but I've found the choice sets to generally be more successful than the LO ones. Also, this change was largely prompted because of the wider U-Turn change in the format, which is that U-Turn can now generate with only one other STAB attack instead of two on Bug-Type Pokémon. This is a great change for a lot of Pokémon, but on Beautifly it would have made something like Bug Buzz / U-Turn / Stun Spore / Psychic possible, which is a really bad set. So we had to choose between always choiced or always Bug Buzz / Stun Spore / Psychic / Hidden Power Ground in order to avoid those bad sets.

I agree that Leech Seed and Curse might not be great on Tropius, but they also might be! I think these are things that are worth trying -- Tropius is in a very unpredictable place right now, because we changed so many of its moves. If it turns out these moves are bad on it after further play testing we can always just remove them, but they have enough merit on paper to try it out. Leech Seed is mostly there as a support move for allies rather than a SubSeed sort of deal, which can work sometimes, and it will also be a pretty rare move anyway. And Curse is a matchup fish (much like Swords Dance and Dragon Dance) but it makes Tropius able to potentially clean up against a team that only has physical attackers (left alive). It's not uncommon at all for gen 4 teams to have one opposing mon that they really can't break, after all.
 
Glad you're enjoying most of the changes so far!!

The idea behind taking Stun Spore off Beautifly is that A) it generated with Life Orb which meant that if Rocks were up and you didn't have removal you could send Beautifly in a maximum of one time, and B) that making it more specialised to trying to trade with the opponent (either as a revenge kill or with a good read with Specs) is ultimately better than trading Beautifly for just a paralysis instead of a KO. Scarf Beautifly also has legitimate cleaning potential, especially if you manage to get it into Swarm range! It's a very bad mon, but I've found the choice sets to generally be more successful than the LO ones. Also, this change was largely prompted because of the wider U-Turn change in the format, which is that U-Turn can now generate with only one other STAB attack instead of two on Bug-Type Pokémon. This is a great change for a lot of Pokémon, but on Beautifly it would have made something like Bug Buzz / U-Turn / Stun Spore / Psychic possible, which is a really bad set. So we had to choose between always choiced or always Bug Buzz / Stun Spore / Psychic / Hidden Power Ground in order to avoid those bad sets.

I agree that Leech Seed and Curse might not be great on Tropius, but they also might be! I think these are things that are worth trying -- Tropius is in a very unpredictable place right now, because we changed so many of its moves. If it turns out these moves are bad on it after further play testing we can always just remove them, but they have enough merit on paper to try it out. Leech Seed is mostly there as a support move for allies rather than a SubSeed sort of deal, which can work sometimes, and it will also be a pretty rare move anyway. And Curse is a matchup fish (much like Swords Dance and Dragon Dance) but it makes Tropius able to potentially clean up against a team that only has physical attackers (left alive). It's not uncommon at all for gen 4 teams to have one opposing mon that they really can't break, after all.
In the first case, is way better than normal sets, since paralisis is a no joke, also u can spam it on any turn and the result will be always beneficial, like Beutifly has nothing vs flying types, it kinda sucks vs rock types, also u can get into Swarm range with life Orb without having to risk to survive a hit with is really helpful, also after u do Stun Spore u can do u-turn so u don't have to worry about if Beutifly will be ko'd in the next turn. Def Stun Spore is the best move of its set! (also is more reliable besides that 75%)

Also in the second case well not really, It will suck u get these moves instead of Roost, since now Roost chances are getting lower, also it can replace an attack move, and it can be a move u def want to beat steel types. Not counting also it has more problems to set up tahan rgisteel, since is weak to fire, hp ice is common, flying types hits very hard, SD mons destroy Tropius without too much troubles, etc etc, yeah it gets a better match up vs a lot of ground types but def isn't always the case. Curse will damage the mon in so many ways :/, and Leech Seed is worse since Tropius needs to be faster thant the opponent to work properly and u don't want to get this move instead of Roost, u might get fried with good switchs in less than 3 turns considering that this mon is weak to srocks!
 
In DPP Why u nerfed all mons but Umbreon and Farfetch'd :/, now Pidgeot and Fearow won't roll Choiced sets always, remove that Life Orb it will decrease a ton this mon utility since double edge CB is not a joke and having that 10% of less life each turn is not good as you said is important to conserve life (even CB/CS Heat Wave can work on these mons but never will Life Orb, not to mention Life Orb U-turn on a weak to Stealth Rocks mon is not good if they don't have an status move)
Ditto was bad, but why u had to make it worse? Life Orb was the only thing that could save this very bad mon it can't do anything too well due to its ps and having to rely in an status move, Now u can stall easier bc it will don't have an offensive set in an offensive tier ._.
 

MrSoup

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RBTT Champion
Alright, so I have a ton of suggestions for GSC randbats set updates. Three things.

1. I'm not sure how much I need to demonstrate that I play this meta for this thread, but I've been playing gen 2 rands for years, played in WCOR, and have been #1 multiple times on the ladder, including right now.
2. Many of these sets suggest Rest + Sleep Talk. I know GSC already has quite the negative reputation for being slow and RestTalk is certainly a major culprit. However, in most cases, these are simply the best set for the Pokemon. If there are issues with too much RestTalk, maybe consider adding a max and min for Pokemon you can have with the combo on one team, but as it stands, there's little reason to not have it on several Pokemon. It feels really bad when you don't have it just for some diversity that's worse in most scenarios. I included some potential diversity in other Pokemon sets to account for this.
3. GSC NU has a new VR, as does ZU, so should levels be updated accordingly?

Anyways, here's the list divided into subgroups based on suggested changes:

Simple RestTalk Changes
  • Ninetales should have a RestTalk Flamethrower/Toxic or HP Grass set. It's sort of odd that it doesn't at this point, as this is its ubiquitous set in standard play. It has massive special bulk, so it is able to make great use of this set to force out things like Electabuzz. It needs longevity, rather than always having a risky Sunny Day set.
  • Magneton should have a RestTalk/Tbolt/HPWater set. This is its most common set in UU, and is most probably better than Sub TWave. It's one of few steel types, which should be able to use RestTalk due to its great defensive attributes.
  • Hypno should have a RestTalk set. Hypno in UU only runs RestTalk, and it should be an option here, if not the only option. With great SpDef, it wants longevity and status safety. Dual screens is cool but inferior. Set should be Psychic/RestTalk/Twave or Reflect or Light Screen or SToss or BSlam
  • Slowbro and Slowking should always have RestTalk/STAB/STAB or coverage, removing TWave. Not rolling RestTalk on these mons is a tragedy. Being so slow, it does not need Dual Stab + coverage + TWave. These sets are unviable and should be removed.
  • The non-RestTalk Kangaskhan set with Roar should be removed. There are enough phasers in the pool, and Kangaskhan is one of the best normal RestTalkers. It's a shame when it doesn't get it, as things that do have the option for all-out attacking like Tauros are always RestTalk (which is fine, but change Kangaskhan).
  • Mr. Mime should have an uncommon RestTalk/Psychic/Thunder set. It has the SpDef to run this and be an offensive threat, and is, again, its most common set in UU.
  • Dragonite can have a RestTalk/BoltBeam option to add flavor, as its current sets are very one dimensional and make it an undesirable Pokemon to have on your team. It occasionally runs this in UUBL as well.
  • Togetic should get the option of its ZU set: RestTalk/DEdge/Psychic or Curse. It's well known how much of meme this thing is, but this set is much more standard for play and would likely do much more than its current set. Having both is some nice variety for a Pokemon that only has a guarenteed set.
  • Azumarill should have a RestTalk/Light Screen/Surf option. Another flavor switch to a Pokemon with a guaranteed set. In NU this is its only set it runs, and would make sense in rands too to help allies.
  • Remove Heracross sets with SToss and no RestTalk. This move is never useful without the longevity of RestTalk. Just remove it. If you want fighting flavor, add HP Fighting as its potential fourth on its RestTalk sets.
  • Remove non-RestTalk Roar Ursaring. Same reasoning as Kangaskhan, except even worse considering how potent of an attacker Ursaring is.
  • Remove the non-RestTalk Confuse Ray Stantler set. Confuse Ray is outclassed on this Pokemon. Let normal types do what they do best. Mono attacking or EQ are always superior.
  • Suicune should always be RestTalk. Even in modern gens, its stats just heavily lean this Pokemon to running Rest. Surf/coverage/coverage/Toxic sets don't do the Pokemon any favors for what it's meant to do.
Complex RestTalk Changes
  • If Dewgong has no RestTalk, its last move with STAB/Encore/Toxic should be Protect, not Body Slam. Remove Body Slam. This suggested set is one of its sets in NU, and there is no need for Body Slam with Encore or Toxic. Protect has a lot of synergy with these moves, adds a move no other Pokemon has in its set, and is great with Leftovers.
  • Lapras should always be RestTalk. Like Suicune, its stats just heavily lean it towards this role and it doesn't make much sense otherwise. Similarly, Lapras should have have TBolt over Thunder due to its bulk and longevity. Finally, remove Sing, as it has no place on Rest sets.
  • Aerodactyl can run Rest with no Sleep Talk along with Curse and Leftovers due to its unique typing, as Skarmory does in OU. It is one of the few Pokemon that can do this, and would add flavor.
  • Quagsire should have a RestTalk/EQ/Surf or Ice Beam or HP Rock option. Remove BSlam for HP Rock in all cases. In standard play Quagsire almost always runs HP Rock for perfect coverage after Belly Drum, not Body Slam. It's also well-known that Quagsire is one of the worst Pokemon in GSC rands. Adding this set will give it options, make it not as predictable, and give it longevity, when it is typically just a throw away Pokemon.
  • Skarmory should be able to get Rest without Sleep Talk. See Aerodactyl above. These two Pokemon are the only ones that can do this, so why not add it?
Mint Berry Changes
  • Remove Body Slam and Mint Berry from Piloswine. It's chances to roll sets are also very bad. It should be most commonly RestTalk/EQ/Ice Beam with a small chance for Curse or AP as its last. Currently this is flipped and is makes Piloswine very weak, being walled by flying types. Let it use its great STAB coverage! And remove its Mint Berry sets. These are not good for slow Pokemon or those with many weaknesses, which Piloswine is both. And then remove BSlam, which only appears on Mint sets anyways.
  • Remove Mint Berry on Steelix. Same two reasons that are why it's the same for Piloswine. Keeping its non-RestTalk sets are fine, just remove Mint, as having Explosion if it isn't going to have Sleep Talk is always better.
Spikes Changes
  • Cloyster should always have Spikes and more should have Explosion. If a Pokemon can have Spikes, it needs to have it. Period. There are only five spikers and its horrendous when they don't have it. Let them fulfill this role. Currently only two of the spikers always get it. I'm pretty sure you can't roll Spikes twice on the same team anyways, so this shouldn't change much. Also let Cloyster fulfill its amazing role of Spikes + Boom more often. That's what it's best at. It doesn't get explosion enough. It should always be STAB/Spikes + 2 of STAB/Explosion/Toxic each rolled at 66%.
  • Forretress should always have spikes. Same reasoning as above. Remove Double Edge to streamline this change. It doesn't want to click this almost ever.
  • Delibird should always have spikes. Same thing.
Small Set Additions and Removals
  • Persian should have a no item Thief set with guaranteed Hypnosis in tandem. This is pretty standard for its role, forcing a lot out with the threat of sleep. We can keep old sets, but this should be added.
  • Primeape should get Thunder infrequently. Obviously mutually exclusive with Meditate. This is common coverage in NU, hitting Flying types harder than Rock Slide typically.
  • Rhydon shouldn't have Zap Cannon. Its special attack is pitiful. It doesn't make much sense to have this move when it has GREAT other options.
  • Gyarados should have Roar added infrequently to its sets without RestTalk. Gyarados is a great phaser due to its Spike immunity and Ground immunity, giving it the opportunity to Roar a lot vs things like Quagsire and cursed-up Machamp.
  • Sudowoodo should get Self-Destruct more often. Its a key move for it. Only getting in 6% of the time is too low. It should frequently get Curse/EQ/Rock Slide/Self-Destruct and get RestTalk less (shocker!) Its simply its best set in most cases due to its special frailty not leaving it around very often.
  • Jumpluff should get Encore. This makes sense with its speed and typing. It can Encore EQ or Curse or Rest.
Bigger Set Additions and Removals
  • Blastoise shouldn't have Zap Cannon. I understand its small (albeit bad) niche of not having RestTalk on all sets due to Rapid Spin, but Zap Cannon is unnecessary. Either remove the non-RestTalk sets, create a 3-attack + Rest set (it runs this sometimes in UU), or keep it the same, but in all scenarios, remove Zap Cannon. HP Electric is an option if we really want to keep electric coverage.
  • Dugtrio should have the option for Screech and Thief, but not on the same set. These are both standard sets and make sense as a fast revenge killer with little coverage, because it is often forcing things out. Sets would be EQ/Rock Slide + Sub/Thief or Sludge Bomb or Screech or Swagger AND EQ/Rock Slide + Thief/Sludge Bomb, as you need Substitute for Screech and Swagger.
  • Bellossom should have Swords Dance when it rolls Double Edge. Either that or remove Double Edge. It can run something like HP Ground too if it rolls this set. Double Edge as it stands seems out of place.
  • Flareon shouldn't get Zap Cannon. HP Grass is better. Remove it to add more consistency to GrowthPass (its best set by far) or add Shadow Ball instead with it non-GrowthPass sets (this is less preferable than just removing Zap and making Baton Pass more common though).
Biggest Set Additions and Removals
  • Pinsir should have a Swords Dance/HP Ground/Double Edge/Rock Throw or Submission set. This should be an offensive option for non-Mint Berry sets. Rock throw is not currently on its set, but allows it to hit certain threats like Skarmory, Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Scyther harder. This is its most common set in UU. Submission can stay, but just be a possible fourth move with Rock Throw.
  • Meganium should get a Swords Dance/EQ/Synthesis/HP Rock or Return set. Keep the defensive sets but add this as an option. Meganium can functionally use this in UUBL due to its well-rounded stats, so it should be included in rands. Diversity! EQ gives it a great reason to not always want to run STAB.
  • Girafarig should have an Agility or Amnesia Baton Pass option. This is sort of what the Pokemon is known for in GSC. It doesn't need both on the same set, but it can run Psychic/Baton Pass + Agility or Amnesia/STAB or Rest or EQ as an extra set to what it already has.
  • Allow Smeargle to run another set. It should always have Spikes/Spore and probably Baton Pass. It's a little ironic how the Pokemon that can run every move has four locked ones. Instead of just Agility, allow it to pass Amnesias or Curses or Swords Dances as an option. Better yet, allows it to Trap Pass! Don't make this thing so one dimensional, although I think there are other options for it other than what I just listed.
 
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Alright, so I have a ton of suggestions for GSC randbats set updates. Three things.

1. I'm not sure how much I need to demonstrate that I play this meta for this thread, but I've been playing gen 2 rands for years, played in WCOR, and have been #1 multiple times on the ladder, including right now.
2. Many of these sets suggest Rest + Sleep Talk. I know GSC already has quite the negative reputation for being slow and RestTalk is certainly a major culprit. However, in most cases, these are simply the best set for the Pokemon. If there are issues with too much RestTalk, maybe consider adding a max and min for Pokemon you can have with the combo on one team, but as it stands, there's little reason to not have it on several Pokemon. It feels really bad when you don't have it just for some diversity that's worse in most scenarios. I included some potential diversity in other Pokemon sets to account for this.
3. GSC NU has a new VR, as does ZU, so should levels be updated accordingly?

Anyways, here's the list divided into subgroups based on suggested changes:

Simple RestTalk Changes
  • Ninetales should have a RestTalk Flamethrower/Toxic or HP Grass set. It's sort of odd that it doesn't at this point, as this is its ubiquitous set in standard play. It has massive special bulk, so it is able to make great use of this set to force out things like Electabuzz. It needs longevity, rather than always having a risky Sunny Day set.
  • Magneton should have a RestTalk/Tbolt/HPWater set. This is its most common set in UU, and is most probably better than Sub TWave. It's one of few steel types, which should be able to use RestTalk due to its great defensive attributes.
  • Hypno should have a RestTalk set. Hypno in UU only runs RestTalk, and it should be an option here, if not the only option. With great SpDef, it wants longevity and status safety. Dual screens is cool but inferior. Set should be Psychic/RestTalk/Twave or Reflect or Light Screen or SToss or BSlam
  • Slowbro and Slowking should always have RestTalk/STAB/STAB or coverage, removing TWave. Not rolling RestTalk on these mons is a tragedy. Being so slow, it does not need Dual Stab + coverage + TWave. These sets are unviable and should be removed.
  • The non-RestTalk Kangaskhan set with Roar should be removed. There are enough phasers in the pool, and Kangaskhan is one of the best normal RestTalkers. It's a shame when it doesn't get it, as things that do have the option for all-out attacking like Tauros are always RestTalk (which is fine, but change Kangaskhan).
  • Mr. Mime should have an uncommon RestTalk/Psychic/Thunder set. It has the SpDef to run this and be an offensive threat, and is, again, its most common set in UU.
  • Dragonite can have a RestTalk/BoltBeam option to add flavor, as its current sets are very one dimensional and make it an undesirable Pokemon to have on your team. It occasionally runs this in UUBL as well.
  • Togetic should get the option of its ZU set: RestTalk/DEdge/Psychic or Curse. It's well known how much of meme this thing is, but this set is much more standard for play and would likely do much more than its current set. Having both is some nice variety for a Pokemon that only has a guarenteed set.
  • Azumarill should have a RestTalk/Light Screen/Surf option. Another flavor switch to a Pokemon with a guaranteed set. In NU this is its only set it runs, and would make sense in rands too to help allies.
  • Remove Heracross sets with SToss and no RestTalk. This move is never useful without the longevity of RestTalk. Just remove it. If you want fighting flavor, add HP Fighting as its potential fourth on its RestTalk sets.
  • Remove non-RestTalk Roar Ursaring. Same reasoning as Kangaskhan, except even worse considering how potent of an attacker Ursaring is.
  • Remove the non-RestTalk Confuse Ray Stantler set. Confuse Ray is outclassed on this Pokemon. Let normal types do what they do best. Mono attacking or EQ are always superior.
  • Suicune should always be RestTalk. Even in modern gens, its stats just heavily lean this Pokemon to running Rest. Surf/coverage/coverage/Toxic sets don't do the Pokemon any favors for what it's meant to do.
Complex RestTalk Changes
  • If Dewgong has no RestTalk, its last move with STAB/Encore/Toxic should be Protect, not Body Slam. Remove Body Slam. This suggested set is one of its sets in NU, and there is no need for Body Slam with Encore or Toxic. Protect has a lot of synergy with these moves, adds a move no other Pokemon has in its set, and is great with Leftovers.
  • Lapras should always be RestTalk. Like Suicune, its stats just heavily lean it towards this role and it doesn't make much sense otherwise. Similarly, Lapras should have have TBolt over Thunder due to its bulk and longevity. Finally, remove Sing, as it has no place on Rest sets.
  • Aerodactyl can run Rest with no Sleep Talk along with Curse and Leftovers due to its unique typing, as Skarmory does in OU. It is one of the few Pokemon that can do this, and would add flavor.
  • Quagsire should have a RestTalk/EQ/Surf or Ice Beam or HP Rock option. Remove BSlam for HP Rock in all cases. In standard play Quagsire almost always runs HP Rock for perfect coverage after Belly Drum, not Body Slam. It's also well-known that Quagsire is one of the worst Pokemon in GSC rands. Adding this set will give it options, make it not as predictable, and give it longevity, when it is typically just a throw away Pokemon.
  • Skarmory should be able to get Rest without Sleep Talk. See Aerodactyl above. These two Pokemon are the only ones that can do this, so why not add it?
Mint Berry Changes
  • Remove Body Slam and Mint Berry from Piloswine. It's chances to roll sets are also very bad. It should be most commonly RestTalk/EQ/Ice Beam with a small chance for Curse or AP as its last. Currently this is flipped and is makes Piloswine very weak, being walled by flying types. Let it use its great STAB coverage! And remove its Mint Berry sets. These are not good for slow Pokemon or those with many weaknesses, which Piloswine is both. And then remove BSlam, which only appears on Mint sets anyways.
  • Remove Mint Berry on Steelix. Same two reasons that are why it's the same for Piloswine. Keeping its non-RestTalk sets are fine, just remove Mint, as having Explosion if it isn't going to have Sleep Talk is always better.
Spikes Changes
  • Cloyster should always have Spikes and more should have Explosion. If a Pokemon can have Spikes, it needs to have it. Period. There are only five spikers and its horrendous when they don't have it. Let them fulfill this role. Currently only two of the spikers always get it. I'm pretty sure you can't roll Spikes twice on the same team anyways, so this shouldn't change much. Also let Cloyster fulfill its amazing role of Spikes + Boom more often. That's what it's best at. It doesn't get explosion enough. It should always be STAB/Spikes + 2 of STAB/Explosion/Toxic each rolled at 66%.
  • Forretress should always have spikes. Same reasoning as above. Remove Double Edge to streamline this change. It doesn't want to click this almost ever.
  • Delibird should always have spikes. Same thing.
Small Set Additions and Removals
  • Persian should have a no item Thief set with guaranteed Hypnosis in tandem. This is pretty standard for its role, forcing a lot out with the threat of sleep. We can keep old sets, but this should be added.
  • Primeape should get Thunder infrequently. Obviously mutually exclusive with Meditate. This is common coverage in NU, hitting Flying types harder than Rock Slide typically.
  • Rhydon shouldn't have Zap Cannon. Its special attack is pitiful. It doesn't make much sense to have this move when it has GREAT other options.
  • Gyarados should have Roar added infrequently to its sets without RestTalk. Gyarados is a great phaser due to its Spike immunity and Ground immunity, giving it the opportunity to Roar a lot vs things like Quagsire and cursed-up Machamp.
  • Sudowoodo should get Self-Destruct more often. Its a key move for it. Only getting in 6% of the time is too low. It should frequently get Curse/EQ/Rock Slide/Self-Destruct and get RestTalk less (shocker!) Its simply its best set in most cases due to its special frailty not leaving it around very often.
  • Jumpluff should get Encore. This makes sense with its speed and typing. It can Encore EQ or Curse or Rest.
Bigger Set Additions and Removals
  • Blastoise shouldn't have Zap Cannon. I understand its small (albeit bad) niche of not having RestTalk on all sets due to Rapid Spin, but Zap Cannon is unnecessary. Either remove the non-RestTalk sets, create a 3-attack + Rest set (it runs this sometimes in UU), or keep it the same, but in all scenarios, remove Zap Cannon. HP Electric is an option if we really want to keep electric coverage.
  • Dugtrio should have the option for Screech and Thief, but not on the same set. These are both standard sets and make sense as a fast revenge killer with little coverage, because it is often forcing things out. Sets would be EQ/Rock Slide + Sub/Thief or Sludge Bomb or Screech or Swagger AND EQ/Rock Slide + Thief/Sludge Bomb, as you need Substitute for Screech and Swagger.
  • Bellossom should have Swords Dance when it rolls Double Edge. Either that or remove Double Edge. It can run something like HP Ground too if it rolls this set. Double Edge as it stands seems out of place.
  • Flareon shouldn't get Zap Cannon. HP Grass is better. Remove it to add more consistency to GrowthPass (its best set by far) or add Shadow Ball instead with it non-GrowthPass sets (this is less preferable than just removing Zap and making Baton Pass more common though).
Biggest Set Additions and Removals
  • Pinsir should have a Swords Dance/HP Ground/Double Edge/Rock Throw or Submission set. This should be an offensive option for non-Mint Berry sets. Rock throw is not currently on its set, but allows it to hit certain threats like Skarmory, Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Scyther harder. This is its most common set in NU. Submission can stay, but just be a possible fourth move with Rock Throw.
  • Meganium should get a Swords Dance/EQ/Synthesis/HP Rock or Return set. Keep the defensive sets but add this as an option. Meganium can functionally use this in UUBL due to its well-rounded stats, so it should be included in rands. Diversity! EQ gives it a great reason to not always want to run STAB.
  • Girafarig should have an Agility or Amnesia Baton Pass option. This is sort of what the Pokemon is known for in GSC. It doesn't need both on the same set, but it can run Psychic/Baton Pass + Agility or Amnesia/STAB or Rest or EQ as an extra set to what it already has.
  • Allow Smeargle to run another set. It should always have Spikes/Spore and probably Baton Pass. It's a little ironic how the Pokemon that can run every move has four locked ones. Instead of just Agility, allow it to pass Amnesias or Curses or Swords Dances as an option. Better yet, allows it to Trap Pass! Don't make this thing so one dimensional, although I think there are other options for it other than what I just listed.
Wanted to not leave you fully on read here-- we are looking into your suggestions. Not all of them will be implemented, but we are going through them in turn, and there will be changes made to the format in response to your comments. Thank you for your thoughtful, well-reasoned feedback.
 
Alright, so I have a ton of suggestions for GSC randbats set updates. Three things.

1. I'm not sure how much I need to demonstrate that I play this meta for this thread, but I've been playing gen 2 rands for years, played in WCOR, and have been #1 multiple times on the ladder, including right now.
2. Many of these sets suggest Rest + Sleep Talk. I know GSC already has quite the negative reputation for being slow and RestTalk is certainly a major culprit. However, in most cases, these are simply the best set for the Pokemon. If there are issues with too much RestTalk, maybe consider adding a max and min for Pokemon you can have with the combo on one team, but as it stands, there's little reason to not have it on several Pokemon. It feels really bad when you don't have it just for some diversity that's worse in most scenarios. I included some potential diversity in other Pokemon sets to account for this.
3. GSC NU has a new VR, as does ZU, so should levels be updated accordingly?

Anyways, here's the list divided into subgroups based on suggested changes:

Simple RestTalk Changes
  • Ninetales should have a RestTalk Flamethrower/Toxic or HP Grass set. It's sort of odd that it doesn't at this point, as this is its ubiquitous set in standard play. It has massive special bulk, so it is able to make great use of this set to force out things like Electabuzz. It needs longevity, rather than always having a risky Sunny Day set.
  • Magneton should have a RestTalk/Tbolt/HPWater set. This is its most common set in UU, and is most probably better than Sub TWave. It's one of few steel types, which should be able to use RestTalk due to its great defensive attributes.
  • Hypno should have a RestTalk set. Hypno in UU only runs RestTalk, and it should be an option here, if not the only option. With great SpDef, it wants longevity and status safety. Dual screens is cool but inferior. Set should be Psychic/RestTalk/Twave or Reflect or Light Screen or SToss or BSlam
  • Slowbro and Slowking should always have RestTalk/STAB/STAB or coverage, removing TWave. Not rolling RestTalk on these mons is a tragedy. Being so slow, it does not need Dual Stab + coverage + TWave. These sets are unviable and should be removed.
  • The non-RestTalk Kangaskhan set with Roar should be removed. There are enough phasers in the pool, and Kangaskhan is one of the best normal RestTalkers. It's a shame when it doesn't get it, as things that do have the option for all-out attacking like Tauros are always RestTalk (which is fine, but change Kangaskhan).
  • Mr. Mime should have an uncommon RestTalk/Psychic/Thunder set. It has the SpDef to run this and be an offensive threat, and is, again, its most common set in UU.
  • Dragonite can have a RestTalk/BoltBeam option to add flavor, as its current sets are very one dimensional and make it an undesirable Pokemon to have on your team. It occasionally runs this in UUBL as well.
  • Togetic should get the option of its ZU set: RestTalk/DEdge/Psychic or Curse. It's well known how much of meme this thing is, but this set is much more standard for play and would likely do much more than its current set. Having both is some nice variety for a Pokemon that only has a guarenteed set.
  • Azumarill should have a RestTalk/Light Screen/Surf option. Another flavor switch to a Pokemon with a guaranteed set. In NU this is its only set it runs, and would make sense in rands too to help allies.
  • Remove Heracross sets with SToss and no RestTalk. This move is never useful without the longevity of RestTalk. Just remove it. If you want fighting flavor, add HP Fighting as its potential fourth on its RestTalk sets.
  • Remove non-RestTalk Roar Ursaring. Same reasoning as Kangaskhan, except even worse considering how potent of an attacker Ursaring is.
  • Remove the non-RestTalk Confuse Ray Stantler set. Confuse Ray is outclassed on this Pokemon. Let normal types do what they do best. Mono attacking or EQ are always superior.
  • Suicune should always be RestTalk. Even in modern gens, its stats just heavily lean this Pokemon to running Rest. Surf/coverage/coverage/Toxic sets don't do the Pokemon any favors for what it's meant to do.
Complex RestTalk Changes
  • If Dewgong has no RestTalk, its last move with STAB/Encore/Toxic should be Protect, not Body Slam. Remove Body Slam. This suggested set is one of its sets in NU, and there is no need for Body Slam with Encore or Toxic. Protect has a lot of synergy with these moves, adds a move no other Pokemon has in its set, and is great with Leftovers.
  • Lapras should always be RestTalk. Like Suicune, its stats just heavily lean it towards this role and it doesn't make much sense otherwise. Similarly, Lapras should have have TBolt over Thunder due to its bulk and longevity. Finally, remove Sing, as it has no place on Rest sets.
  • Aerodactyl can run Rest with no Sleep Talk along with Curse and Leftovers due to its unique typing, as Skarmory does in OU. It is one of the few Pokemon that can do this, and would add flavor.
  • Quagsire should have a RestTalk/EQ/Surf or Ice Beam or HP Rock option. Remove BSlam for HP Rock in all cases. In standard play Quagsire almost always runs HP Rock for perfect coverage after Belly Drum, not Body Slam. It's also well-known that Quagsire is one of the worst Pokemon in GSC rands. Adding this set will give it options, make it not as predictable, and give it longevity, when it is typically just a throw away Pokemon.
  • Skarmory should be able to get Rest without Sleep Talk. See Aerodactyl above. These two Pokemon are the only ones that can do this, so why not add it?
Mint Berry Changes
  • Remove Body Slam and Mint Berry from Piloswine. It's chances to roll sets are also very bad. It should be most commonly RestTalk/EQ/Ice Beam with a small chance for Curse or AP as its last. Currently this is flipped and is makes Piloswine very weak, being walled by flying types. Let it use its great STAB coverage! And remove its Mint Berry sets. These are not good for slow Pokemon or those with many weaknesses, which Piloswine is both. And then remove BSlam, which only appears on Mint sets anyways.
  • Remove Mint Berry on Steelix. Same two reasons that are why it's the same for Piloswine. Keeping its non-RestTalk sets are fine, just remove Mint, as having Explosion if it isn't going to have Sleep Talk is always better.
Spikes Changes
  • Cloyster should always have Spikes and more should have Explosion. If a Pokemon can have Spikes, it needs to have it. Period. There are only five spikers and its horrendous when they don't have it. Let them fulfill this role. Currently only two of the spikers always get it. I'm pretty sure you can't roll Spikes twice on the same team anyways, so this shouldn't change much. Also let Cloyster fulfill its amazing role of Spikes + Boom more often. That's what it's best at. It doesn't get explosion enough. It should always be STAB/Spikes + 2 of STAB/Explosion/Toxic each rolled at 66%.
  • Forretress should always have spikes. Same reasoning as above. Remove Double Edge to streamline this change. It doesn't want to click this almost ever.
  • Delibird should always have spikes. Same thing.
Small Set Additions and Removals
  • Persian should have a no item Thief set with guaranteed Hypnosis in tandem. This is pretty standard for its role, forcing a lot out with the threat of sleep. We can keep old sets, but this should be added.
  • Primeape should get Thunder infrequently. Obviously mutually exclusive with Meditate. This is common coverage in NU, hitting Flying types harder than Rock Slide typically.
  • Rhydon shouldn't have Zap Cannon. Its special attack is pitiful. It doesn't make much sense to have this move when it has GREAT other options.
  • Gyarados should have Roar added infrequently to its sets without RestTalk. Gyarados is a great phaser due to its Spike immunity and Ground immunity, giving it the opportunity to Roar a lot vs things like Quagsire and cursed-up Machamp.
  • Sudowoodo should get Self-Destruct more often. Its a key move for it. Only getting in 6% of the time is too low. It should frequently get Curse/EQ/Rock Slide/Self-Destruct and get RestTalk less (shocker!) Its simply its best set in most cases due to its special frailty not leaving it around very often.
  • Jumpluff should get Encore. This makes sense with its speed and typing. It can Encore EQ or Curse or Rest.
Bigger Set Additions and Removals
  • Blastoise shouldn't have Zap Cannon. I understand its small (albeit bad) niche of not having RestTalk on all sets due to Rapid Spin, but Zap Cannon is unnecessary. Either remove the non-RestTalk sets, create a 3-attack + Rest set (it runs this sometimes in UU), or keep it the same, but in all scenarios, remove Zap Cannon. HP Electric is an option if we really want to keep electric coverage.
  • Dugtrio should have the option for Screech and Thief, but not on the same set. These are both standard sets and make sense as a fast revenge killer with little coverage, because it is often forcing things out. Sets would be EQ/Rock Slide + Sub/Thief or Sludge Bomb or Screech or Swagger AND EQ/Rock Slide + Thief/Sludge Bomb, as you need Substitute for Screech and Swagger.
  • Bellossom should have Swords Dance when it rolls Double Edge. Either that or remove Double Edge. It can run something like HP Ground too if it rolls this set. Double Edge as it stands seems out of place.
  • Flareon shouldn't get Zap Cannon. HP Grass is better. Remove it to add more consistency to GrowthPass (its best set by far) or add Shadow Ball instead with it non-GrowthPass sets (this is less preferable than just removing Zap and making Baton Pass more common though).
Biggest Set Additions and Removals
  • Pinsir should have a Swords Dance/HP Ground/Double Edge/Rock Throw or Submission set. This should be an offensive option for non-Mint Berry sets. Rock throw is not currently on its set, but allows it to hit certain threats like Skarmory, Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Scyther harder. This is its most common set in NU. Submission can stay, but just be a possible fourth move with Rock Throw.
  • Meganium should get a Swords Dance/EQ/Synthesis/HP Rock or Return set. Keep the defensive sets but add this as an option. Meganium can functionally use this in UUBL due to its well-rounded stats, so it should be included in rands. Diversity! EQ gives it a great reason to not always want to run STAB.
  • Girafarig should have an Agility or Amnesia Baton Pass option. This is sort of what the Pokemon is known for in GSC. It doesn't need both on the same set, but it can run Psychic/Baton Pass + Agility or Amnesia/STAB or Rest or EQ as an extra set to what it already has.
  • Allow Smeargle to run another set. It should always have Spikes/Spore and probably Baton Pass. It's a little ironic how the Pokemon that can run every move has four locked ones. Instead of just Agility, allow it to pass Amnesias or Curses or Swords Dances as an option. Better yet, allows it to Trap Pass! Don't make this thing so one dimensional, although I think there are other options for it other than what I just listed.
Problem of some of these sets is that they're quite weak in Randbats like u won't like to see Thunder in Primeape if u get Meditate (even u don't want to not roll Meditate...most of the time) and less being a 70% accuracy move, also Protect is so... bad if you know the movepool it just won't work also Magneton set is pretty fine you can see that thing hitting like a truck since is one of the few Wall breakers in the meta (also its defenses specially the special one is horrific, subs is better in this case), btw Zap Canon Flareon is Good you'll see other players thinking it twice in the switchs since it can paralize and hit hard at the same turn, same with Blastoise but this one is less reliable since it doesn't get Growth.
But besides that some of these ideas seems interesting, but the problem is how the sets are generated using the randbats internal mechanics you'll get weird sets some of them being unviable (consideer Rest goes with Chesto or Sleep Talk).
 
i need to make notes on more stuff for ADV, but restricting jask from having a super OP pass set that autowins (its just not interactive at all) and just removing unown are 2 aspects I would like to see implemented in ADV randbats.

kyogre/groudon could also be considered for some level of nerfs because *infinite* sun/rain setting is so incredibly strong in a random format
 

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again
is a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
Problem of some of these sets is that they're quite weak in Randbats like u won't like to see Thunder in Primeape if u get Meditate (even u don't want to not roll Meditate...most of the time) and less being a 70% accuracy move, also Protect is so... bad if you know the movepool it just won't work also Magneton set is pretty fine you can see that thing hitting like a truck since is one of the few Wall breakers in the meta (also its defenses specially the special one is horrific, subs is better in this case), btw Zap Canon Flareon is Good you'll see other players thinking it twice in the switchs since it can paralize and hit hard at the same turn, same with Blastoise but this one is less reliable since it doesn't get Growth.
But besides that some of these ideas seems interesting, but the problem is how the sets are generated using the randbats internal mechanics you'll get weird sets some of them being unviable (consideer Rest goes with Chesto or Sleep Talk).
Thanks for the response! I appreciate GSC rands getting any more attention than it currently has.

As for your comments, I do think some are interesting. I will admit I'm not exactly sure on how a lot of the sets are generated together, but I do have some points.

For Zap Cannon -- on Blastoise I think there's no question it doesn't really have much of a place, considering a Rest/Talk set is always better given Blastoise's role on a team (waters are your most valuable Pokemon for the tier and you need them to be reliable). Flareon, while I understand you liking it, is just not consistent, and I think my point is more that Growth + Pass with HP Grass and Fire Blast is better coverage and is all your bases covered. Zap Cannon is interesting, but necessitates dropping Baton Pass, which is always worse from a statistical rands standpoint for your chances of winning, given GSC is all about your opportunities to break.

This is also a little paradoxical when pointing to Thunder's 70% accuracy when Zap Cannon has an atrocious 50%. Moreover, criticizing Thunder in GSC is kind of weird considering that it's... like one of the best moves in the whole generation, as its power is needed to break RestTalk + Lefties + Full DVs. Primeape is a breaker by nature. Having Thunder on it is one of its best ways to break. It's already a high risk high reward Pokemon, with Cross Chop at 80% accuracy. Most Pokemon that can learn Thunder in GSC have it as an option on their sets.

As for Protect, I agree that it's usually bad, but Dewgong is the one Pokemon in GSC rands that it 100% makes sense for. STAB + Toxic + Encore + Protect has fantastic synergy. Rolling this set with Body Slam or Double STAB right now without Protect is awful. Protect gives you 6.25% health, scouts for Encore, and wracks up Toxic damage. This set would be fantastic in rands, and doesn't really depend on whether your opponent knows the set. It would just be an option on top of Rest/Talk. It also adds diversity without sacrificing how good a Pokemon is.

The Magneton set I suppose is... fine. It's actually extremely similar to my proposed Dewgong set. I think adding Rest/Talk would just make the Pokemon better. Sub/TWave is sometimes just really bad for you.

Some other things that this post has given me the opportunity to talk about:

I got two sets recently that you shouldn't be able to get (like I said I'm not exactly sure how the mechanism works, but this should be fixed somehow).
1683522558760.png
HP Water/Drill Peck/RestTalk is so bad. Psychic should be mandatory.

1683522688840.png
There is such a lack of synergy here its amazing. I'm not quite sure on the fix since all of these moves have their place on some TTar sets, but maybe making Curse + Pursuit (or special moves) incompatible (I'm not sure how this works).

Finally I wanted to include these three in my original post, but didn't because I thought of them more as nice changes rather than necessities (I see everything in my initial post pretty important for the meta). Raikou, Raichu, and Lanturn should always be RestTalk. I get the validity in their other sets (particularly with Encore Raichu and the synergy between Rain Dance and Lanturn's STABS), but they 99% of the time prefer to just be RestTalk. Like I said, it's very very very rarely nice, but let's be honest, when we roll these sets it's always a shame. And honestly Raikou's other set is ALWAYS inferior.

Thanks for the long read again. I love this format and hope to see it improve. I don't mean to put aside any of your concerns, and I appreciate the response, but I really am pressing for these changes as a long-time (and one of the only) high-elo player of the format.
 
kyogre/groudon could also be considered for some level of nerfs because *infinite* sun/rain setting is so incredibly strong in a random format
Winrate based level balancing has begun only recently for old gens (3-7). In the first round in March both Groudon and Kyogre lost 3 levels. In April Groudon did not seem as strong anymore, thus losing only 1 level, while Kyogre lost another 3. If it's still objectively too strong it will get nerfed further, but note that losing 6 levels is already a very big nerf, so any older experiences you have may no longer be representative.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Thanks for the response! I appreciate GSC rands getting any more attention than it currently has.

As for your comments, I do think some are interesting. I will admit I'm not exactly sure on how a lot of the sets are generated together, but I do have some points.

For Zap Cannon -- on Blastoise I think there's no question it doesn't really have much of a place, considering a Rest/Talk set is always better given Blastoise's role on a team (waters are your most valuable Pokemon for the tier and you need them to be reliable). Flareon, while I understand you liking it, is just not consistent, and I think my point is more that Growth + Pass with HP Grass and Fire Blast is better coverage and is all your bases covered. Zap Cannon is interesting, but necessitates dropping Baton Pass, which is always worse from a statistical rands standpoint for your chances of winning, given GSC is all about your opportunities to break.

This is also a little paradoxical when pointing to Thunder's 70% accuracy when Zap Cannon has an atrocious 50%. Moreover, criticizing Thunder in GSC is kind of weird considering that it's... like one of the best moves in the whole generation, as its power is needed to break RestTalk + Lefties + Full DVs. Primeape is a breaker by nature. Having Thunder on it is one of its best ways to break. It's already a high risk high reward Pokemon, with Cross Chop at 80% accuracy. Most Pokemon that can learn Thunder in GSC have it as an option on their sets.

As for Protect, I agree that it's usually bad, but Dewgong is the one Pokemon in GSC rands that it 100% makes sense for. STAB + Toxic + Encore + Protect has fantastic synergy. Rolling this set with Body Slam or Double STAB right now without Protect is awful. Protect gives you 6.25% health, scouts for Encore, and wracks up Toxic damage. This set would be fantastic in rands, and doesn't really depend on whether your opponent knows the set. It would just be an option on top of Rest/Talk. It also adds diversity without sacrificing how good a Pokemon is.

The Magneton set I suppose is... fine. It's actually extremely similar to my proposed Dewgong set. I think adding Rest/Talk would just make the Pokemon better. Sub/TWave is sometimes just really bad for you.

Some other things that this post has given me the opportunity to talk about:

I got two sets recently that you shouldn't be able to get (like I said I'm not exactly sure how the mechanism works, but this should be fixed somehow).
HP Water/Drill Peck/RestTalk is so bad. Psychic should be mandatory.

There is such a lack of synergy here its amazing. I'm not quite sure on the fix since all of these moves have their place on some TTar sets, but maybe making Curse + Pursuit (or special moves) incompatible (I'm not sure how this works).

Finally I wanted to include these three in my original post, but didn't because I thought of them more as nice changes rather than necessities (I see everything in my initial post pretty important for the meta). Raikou, Raichu, and Lanturn should always be RestTalk. I get the validity in their other sets (particularly with Encore Raichu and the synergy between Rain Dance and Lanturn's STABS), but they 99% of the time prefer to just be RestTalk. Like I said, it's very very very rarely nice, but let's be honest, when we roll these sets it's always a shame. And honestly Raikou's other set is ALWAYS inferior.

Thanks for the long read again. I love this format and hope to see it improve. I don't mean to put aside any of your concerns, and I appreciate the response, but I really am pressing for these changes as a long-time (and one of the only) high-elo player of the format.
Based on the first post you put in here we have a to do list of changes that will likely happen soon, but is still a little suspect to change. This was actually completed a couple weeks ago, sorry for not updating you sooner:
- Make Spikes Forced
- Hypnosis incompatible with Sleep Talk and/or Rest
- Belly Drum incompatible with Sleep Talk if it isn't already
- Toxic and Thunder Wave incompatible with each other
- Magneton: Rest / Sleep Talk / Thunderbolt / HP Ice
- Hypno: +Rest +Sleep Talk +Toxic -Reflect -Light Screen -Hypnosis
- Ninetales: +Rest +Sleep Talk +Toxic -Confuse Ray -Hypnosis -Sunny Day
- Slowtwins: -Toxic +Ice Beam -Fire Blast +Flamethrower
- Heracross: -Seismic Toss
- Stantler: -Confuse Ray
- Suicune: -HP Electric
- GOOONG: -Body Slam
- Lapras: -Sing -Thunder
- QUAAAAG: -Body Slam +HP Rock +Sleep Talk
- Piloswine: -Body Slam
- Rhydon: -Zap Cannon -Fire Blast
- Jumpluff: +Encore
- Flareon: -Zap Cannon
- Togetic: Rest / Sleep Talk / Curse / Double-Edge
- Aerodactyl: -Reflect +Rest
- Bellossom: +Swords Dance
- Smeargle: +Spider Web +Swords Dance

Some of the suggestions aren't possible for technical reasons restricting the best sets (such as Protect on Dewgong) but if there are any further glaring omissions you'd like to see reply to this and we'll reconsider them / I will let you know why we didn't move forward with the change. And ofc if you have new ones you'd like to pitch that's awesome too, it's always ideal to make changes in one large patch compared to multiple smaller ones.
 
Did we not remove agility from smeargle? I thought we swapped agil for sd.
Based on the first post you put in here we have a to do list of changes that will likely happen soon, but is still a little suspect to change. This was actually completed a couple weeks ago, sorry for not updating you sooner:
- Make Spikes Forced
- Hypnosis incompatible with Sleep Talk and/or Rest
- Belly Drum incompatible with Sleep Talk if it isn't already
- Toxic and Thunder Wave incompatible with each other
- Magneton: Rest / Sleep Talk / Thunderbolt / HP Ice
- Hypno: +Rest +Sleep Talk +Toxic -Reflect -Light Screen -Hypnosis
- Ninetales: +Rest +Sleep Talk +Toxic -Confuse Ray -Hypnosis -Sunny Day
- Slowtwins: -Toxic +Ice Beam -Fire Blast +Flamethrower
- Heracross: -Seismic Toss
- Stantler: -Confuse Ray
- Suicune: -HP Electric
- GOOONG: -Body Slam
- Lapras: -Sing -Thunder
- QUAAAAG: -Body Slam +HP Rock +Sleep Talk
- Piloswine: -Body Slam
- Rhydon: -Zap Cannon -Fire Blast
- Jumpluff: +Encore
- Flareon: -Zap Cannon
- Togetic: Rest / Sleep Talk / Curse / Double-Edge
- Aerodactyl: -Reflect +Rest
- Bellossom: +Swords Dance
- Smeargle: +Spider Web +Swords Dance

Some of the suggestions aren't possible for technical reasons restricting the best sets (such as Protect on Dewgong) but if there are any further glaring omissions you'd like to see reply to this and we'll reconsider them / I will let you know why we didn't move forward with the change. And ofc if you have new ones you'd like to pitch that's awesome too, it's always ideal to make changes in one large patch compared to multiple smaller ones.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Did we not remove agility from smeargle? I thought we swapped agil for sd.
livid worked out that Smeargle will always get Spore / Spikes / Baton Pass, so the last slot is always a tossup between Agility, Swords Dance, and Spider Web. Agility Passing is still really good and, importantly, will always be good while occasionally Swords Dance will do essentially nothing, so we kept all 3.
 
Winrate based level balancing has begun only recently for old gens (3-7). In the first round in March both Groudon and Kyogre lost 3 levels. In April Groudon did not seem as strong anymore, thus losing only 1 level, while Kyogre lost another 3. If it's still objectively too strong it will get nerfed further, but note that losing 6 levels is already a very big nerf, so any older experiences you have may no longer be representative.
thats good to hear, I haven't rolled either of them much lately but I do remember both being a little slower than what i remember :P
 

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again
is a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
Based on the first post you put in here we have a to do list of changes that will likely happen soon, but is still a little suspect to change. This was actually completed a couple weeks ago, sorry for not updating you sooner:
- Make Spikes Forced
- Hypnosis incompatible with Sleep Talk and/or Rest
- Belly Drum incompatible with Sleep Talk if it isn't already
- Toxic and Thunder Wave incompatible with each other
- Magneton: Rest / Sleep Talk / Thunderbolt / HP Ice
- Hypno: +Rest +Sleep Talk +Toxic -Reflect -Light Screen -Hypnosis
- Ninetales: +Rest +Sleep Talk +Toxic -Confuse Ray -Hypnosis -Sunny Day
- Slowtwins: -Toxic +Ice Beam -Fire Blast +Flamethrower
- Heracross: -Seismic Toss
- Stantler: -Confuse Ray
- Suicune: -HP Electric
- GOOONG: -Body Slam
- Lapras: -Sing -Thunder
- QUAAAAG: -Body Slam +HP Rock +Sleep Talk
- Piloswine: -Body Slam
- Rhydon: -Zap Cannon -Fire Blast
- Jumpluff: +Encore
- Flareon: -Zap Cannon
- Togetic: Rest / Sleep Talk / Curse / Double-Edge
- Aerodactyl: -Reflect +Rest
- Bellossom: +Swords Dance
- Smeargle: +Spider Web +Swords Dance

Some of the suggestions aren't possible for technical reasons restricting the best sets (such as Protect on Dewgong) but if there are any further glaring omissions you'd like to see reply to this and we'll reconsider them / I will let you know why we didn't move forward with the change. And ofc if you have new ones you'd like to pitch that's awesome too, it's always ideal to make changes in one large patch compared to multiple smaller ones.
hiya, when do yall expect to roll these out?
 

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