Something has to be done, as Terra is very unpredictable and downright broken at times. (Looking at you, Chi-Yu.) I would personally have terra types shown in team preview, but it's understandable that many want it outright banned.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Oops!...I Did It Again
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Agreed
Alright, time to explain why I don't think Terra should be restricted or banned. The thing with Tera is that it's not like those gimmicks like Z-moves and Dynamax that only centralizes around certain turns. What Terra adds to the game is more on the level of abilities or items, and I think we're being a bit too hasty in throwing it away because it changes the way the game is played. One major difference Tera has from something like Dynamax is that Tera can be used defensively as well as offensively. "Defensive Dynamax" is a joke for a reason, and even with Z-moves while defensive applications of those exist they were extremely niche (the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Z-Stealth Rock and Z-Parting Shot). However, flipping your defensive profile is useful to any defensive mon and doesn't require an important commitment like an item slot. This means that defensive counterplay for any offensive use of Terra could arise, and I feel it's too early to see how that dynamic would really shape out in the long run. Another argument is that Terra is too unpredictable, and for that I feel a comparison with Z-moves is apt. Despite the variety of potential options for Z-moves, most abusers stuck with one or two. It's the same with Tera. While a Pokémon could run 18 types, most of them will not provide enough of a benifit for a Pokémon to run them, especially when consistency is factored. Usually, it's a choice between either their STAB type(s) or a type that gives them a different defensive profile. While exceptions exist, just as there were Pokémon like Tapu Koko that could viably run several different Z-move sets, those are the exceptions and acting like every Pokémon is that unpredictable is simply not true. While some crazy sets may exist, they are generally not consistent (think Z-Dig Greninja to lure Pex) and if they are, well, that becomes the new meta. Once again, I think this hasn't been explored enough yet to truly say that Tera is worth banning. Next, there is the argument of certain broken abusers, like Chi-Yu and Roaring Moon. Besides the fact that these Pokémon are likely broken anyway, it's not worth banning a mechanic as game-changing as Tera over just a couple of Pokémon. By comparison, Dynamax made Pokémon like Excadrill, Hawlucha, Gyarados, and Ditto broken, and they were clearly not broken without Dynamax, but I don't think you can say the same with Chi-Yu and Roaring Moon. Anything about "oh no this Pokémon might get Terra in the future and be broken" is pure speculation and shouldn't be considered.
As for the restrictions, showing the Tera Type at preview would be the only one I would remotely support. Limiting teams to one Tera user would be counterproductive in my opinion. Moves like Tera Blast are inconsistent, as if you don't Tera the Pokémon that knows it it's a waste of a moveslot, and in the current metagame there will be times when you want to Tera your other Pokémon. Limiting to one Tera removes that issue, as now sets that take full potential of Tera's power become much more viable, and the amount of counterplay becomes much more limited when you have less options for defensive Tera on your team. Limiting to only STAB Tera would be even worse, as it completely removes the defensive options that can limit the abuse of offensive Tera. I feel like these are only slightly more convoluted ways to lead to an inevitable ban on Tera. However, revealing the Tera types would be fair and it is precedented in VGC, so I wouldn't mind too much if that option does pass. But I would prefer to leave Tera unrestricted for now, as it has a lot of unexplored potential, and limiting it now would do more harm than good. If in six months we're still having the same problems, then we can revisit it. But Tera adds so many complexities to the game that, right now at least, we can't really say if it's truly banworthy or not.
As for the restrictions, showing the Tera Type at preview would be the only one I would remotely support. Limiting teams to one Tera user would be counterproductive in my opinion. Moves like Tera Blast are inconsistent, as if you don't Tera the Pokémon that knows it it's a waste of a moveslot, and in the current metagame there will be times when you want to Tera your other Pokémon. Limiting to one Tera removes that issue, as now sets that take full potential of Tera's power become much more viable, and the amount of counterplay becomes much more limited when you have less options for defensive Tera on your team. Limiting to only STAB Tera would be even worse, as it completely removes the defensive options that can limit the abuse of offensive Tera. I feel like these are only slightly more convoluted ways to lead to an inevitable ban on Tera. However, revealing the Tera types would be fair and it is precedented in VGC, so I wouldn't mind too much if that option does pass. But I would prefer to leave Tera unrestricted for now, as it has a lot of unexplored potential, and limiting it now would do more harm than good. If in six months we're still having the same problems, then we can revisit it. But Tera adds so many complexities to the game that, right now at least, we can't really say if it's truly banworthy or not.
How does defensive terastalization even solve the problems with offensive terastalization? You're still dealing with absurdly powerful breakers and type-swapping sweepers, amd defensively terastalizing only occasionally helps you. Sure, it's cool, and it's completely balanced, but theres not real way of completely preserving it without violating cartridge or leaving offensive terastal unbanned
This is from your own observation while getting the reqs for voting, or just speculation?
I personally believe that Terastralizing should remain in OU with no action taken at least until HOME comes out, as I feel like that a considerable amount of Pokemon that can abuse Tera to the point of being broken are both few and far between for now and could just be banned themselves instead of the whole mechanic. The unpredictability is an issue but I firmly belive that given enough time the pool of Tera Type some mons use will become very defined, to the point where you already can, in most cases, expect a certain Tera from most relevant Pokemon. As for my prefered option in case that not possible the ranking goes as following:
1. Tera Type Preview: This would be my prefered second option (the first being that Tera is left untouched for the time being) as it removes the unpredictability factor entirely outside of when the Tera is activated, allowing people to plan for it before it happens. Considering this is similar to how VGC is doing playing with Tera it might be the intended way Tera was meant to be used competitively so it should, in my opinion, at least be explored before a possible ban.
2. 1 Tera User Per Team: This turns Tera into a pseudo-Z Move which might be a viable alternative to current Tera since that allows you to just focus on what one specific Pokemon can do with the power of type change, still allowing for plays both offensively and defensively while giving better chance to react.
3. Outright Ban: The first 2 mentioned options in my opinion are the only ones that can keep Tera as a positive addition to the metagame, and should they not be the ones chosen I think that the other options may do more harm than good to the overall metagame.
4. Only STAB Tera or Non-Stab Tera Only: Altough these options could possibly work for me personally it feels like it limits the use of Tera too much from whats intended, especially when locking Tera to only STABs greatly harms its uses defensively compared to offensively.
5. Banning Tera Blast:i dont see what this does other than nerfing physical dragapult and some variants of chi-yu
1. Tera Type Preview: This would be my prefered second option (the first being that Tera is left untouched for the time being) as it removes the unpredictability factor entirely outside of when the Tera is activated, allowing people to plan for it before it happens. Considering this is similar to how VGC is doing playing with Tera it might be the intended way Tera was meant to be used competitively so it should, in my opinion, at least be explored before a possible ban.
2. 1 Tera User Per Team: This turns Tera into a pseudo-Z Move which might be a viable alternative to current Tera since that allows you to just focus on what one specific Pokemon can do with the power of type change, still allowing for plays both offensively and defensively while giving better chance to react.
3. Outright Ban: The first 2 mentioned options in my opinion are the only ones that can keep Tera as a positive addition to the metagame, and should they not be the ones chosen I think that the other options may do more harm than good to the overall metagame.
4. Only STAB Tera or Non-Stab Tera Only: Altough these options could possibly work for me personally it feels like it limits the use of Tera too much from whats intended, especially when locking Tera to only STABs greatly harms its uses defensively compared to offensively.
5. Banning Tera Blast:i dont see what this does other than nerfing physical dragapult and some variants of chi-yu
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General observation from battling, I doubt I'll have the time necessary to earn reqs. I've admittedly played more UU this gen, but Tera is if anything much less problematic there, which does lead me to believe that a lot of the problems in OU come down to the abusers.
Speaking of, I think everyone in this suspect test should check out UU. Sure, Espathra is dumb, but beyond that it's surprisingly well-balanced, and it may be helpful to look at Tera without many of the insane OU Pokémon like Annihilape and Chi-Yu.
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Hey not sure where else I can ask this but if I'm in the middle of laddering and i go to register an alt (at 10 wins say) and then it says this name is taken, what's going on?
I was able to select the name fine to start laddering with
I was able to select the name fine to start laddering with
Hello somgon been a while since I have spoken here but I believe we should ban terastallization and here are my reasons
As a manic it looks fun to change your type and get stab however when it comes to the competitive scene it's a different story. Let me.use a example shedninga is a annoying and easy pokemon to kill but I'm sure all of you have heard of the electric air balloon shedninga and that's only one example of the most annoying examples of the manic chi yu is definitely going to be banned soon thanks to it's stats and ability and tera still being in the tier just makes this mon even more terrifying to play around weather it's tera grass or dark. Speaking of tera into the same stats that's another reason I think it should be banned getting a double stab boost is insane mega Lucario has proven how in the previous generation if you need anymore reasons why it should be banned just look the terrifying mons in the meta game right now(chin Po,chin yu,iron violent, king gambit) and look at there attacks stats and imagine a double stab boost to it's stab strong moves(dark pluse, moon blast, sucker punch, icicle crash) you get the idea.
As a manic it looks fun to change your type and get stab however when it comes to the competitive scene it's a different story. Let me.use a example shedninga is a annoying and easy pokemon to kill but I'm sure all of you have heard of the electric air balloon shedninga and that's only one example of the most annoying examples of the manic chi yu is definitely going to be banned soon thanks to it's stats and ability and tera still being in the tier just makes this mon even more terrifying to play around weather it's tera grass or dark. Speaking of tera into the same stats that's another reason I think it should be banned getting a double stab boost is insane mega Lucario has proven how in the previous generation if you need anymore reasons why it should be banned just look the terrifying mons in the meta game right now(chin Po,chin yu,iron violent, king gambit) and look at there attacks stats and imagine a double stab boost to it's stab strong moves(dark pluse, moon blast, sucker punch, icicle crash) you get the idea.
Can someone who is pro Tera explain to me how knowing the sweepers Tera will change anything in the current meta? The opponent doesn't have to Tera and all options are exactly the same.
Like just because I know it's a fire Tera on a water mon doesn't prevent them from just not using Tera or whatever. It still leads to the absurd 50 50 game loss scenarios that currently are plaguing the meta.
Not only that explain how keeping the mechanic justifies banning like every future abuser of the mechanic.
Like just because I know it's a fire Tera on a water mon doesn't prevent them from just not using Tera or whatever. It still leads to the absurd 50 50 game loss scenarios that currently are plaguing the meta.
Not only that explain how keeping the mechanic justifies banning like every future abuser of the mechanic.
Someone is probably using the name on the ladder already you can play with the name because that account probably wasn't actually registered but they all accounts name was probably already taken.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Ya got sniped, champ. Someone went and took your alt while you weren’t using it. As a general rule of thumb, if you’re laddering with an unregistered alt and you want to go do something else for a few minutes instead, register the alt first.
Shedinja isn't even in the game and would still just die to hazards, status, weather, Mold Breaker, etc. If Chi Yu is going to be banned anyway, why is that a point against Tera? Sure, Mega Lucario was powerful with adaptability, but other adaptability Pokémon like Porygon-Z, Dragalge, etc were far less broken and Mega Luke was banned for its versatility, speed, and Movepool on top of its power. Overall, this entire post is just a non sequitur.
What effectively is the difference between predicting whether or not a Water Pokémon will Tera Fire and predicting whether or not a Water Pokémon will switch with a Fire Pokémon? I guess in the former situation the Water Pokémon can attack if it Teras Fire, but even then you should have an expectation of what moves it can use. Overall, Tera in UU does not have the same problems as it does in OU, so it's more likely that some of OU's abusers are problematic than Tera itself is, and this does not translate to banning every future abuser, as there are a lot of viable users that don't break the game.
so, there's two things here:
First! As to your question on reveal: a lot of "pro-tera" peeps are on no change, obviously. But as for those of us who like the idea of reveal as a solution, vs just "I'd rather no action but must vote a form of action as number 1", I think there's a few notable examples where knowing teratype changes things. Espartha's been brought up a few times, as an example; the difference between Tera Fairy and a different coverage tera can massively change how you play around the mon. The other best example I can pop off the top of my head is Dnite; knowing if it is tera normal for Espeed or an off-meta coverage tera to try and out the normal counters is, well, the difference between using your standard dnite check or needing to swap up the plan. Crescent too; you know right away if it's trying to tera flying acro you, or doing defensive or coverage tera-ing. Revealing tera types isn't a major reduction power, because the people voting for it presumably don't believe Tera NEEDS that reduction. What it is, is a reduction of variability. Take the list posted earlier in this thread, with 3+ teratypes per mon. Suddenly you know, at team preview, that you can truncate that list to one per pokemon.
As to your second point, I'd like to reply with a counter question: How do you know that there are that many abusers waiting in the wings? We know there are a few very notable abusers in OU, but multiple of those are potentially bannable WITHOUT Tera; Chi-yu majorly, but multiple others are suspect, especially as long as Shed tail exists. How do you know that, should those mons be banned, new abusers would appear that are warping? Also, why are we talking as if we need to ban tera based on that hypothetical? Wouldn't it be more sensible to test the mons that are clearly out of whack, and then ban tera IF new mons fill the abuse blanks those bans leave?
When home drops there will be an absurd amount of abusers. This is an absolute fact.
Whether any of them would be broken is pure speculation at this point. Let's just stick to the facts of the case.
Then it should be suspected when home drops, rather than in anticipation for an ASSUMED abuse case that doesn't currently exist.
I do want to say: I know that re-suspecting has come up, but I implore everyone here to consider re-suspecting even if Tera is banned in this round, if a significant number of current "tera abuse case" mons end up banned from OU regardless. I believe there is a real chance that we're risking hitting the wrong half of the problem here, and that should that turn out to be true, a retest seems advisable.
At the very least I do agree with this statement.
Chi-Yu/Shed Tail/Ape have absolutely no business still being in OU and while Im a bit torn on the other problem mons....these need to go for the meta to progress.
They atleast need to be suspect tested, right? And based on my own play and reading the responses here, I'd argue between those three bans you hit... every problem mon for tera? Atleast a majority? Dnite probably survives the loss of shed tail but it's certainly a hit to every single settup sweeper abusing offensive tera. If that ends up being true, wouldn't it be better to test Tera under conditions where there aren't other major balance problems potentially muddying the testing pool? I know it's too late to stop now, unless No Action wins, but I really think if Ban wins and fish\shed\ape all get banned anyway, Tera should be revisited for an UNBANNING, even partially.
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Chi-Yu and Shed Tail are overtly, explicitly broken and should be quickbanned. Hell, they should have been quickbanned before this suspect even happened.
Not for a while, I would think. This is the most complex, controversial suspect test since… well, ever. I know Finch has said the Council is open to multiple suspects, but I can’t realistically see an unbanning suspect happening in any capacity—even though there won’t be a separate official ladder, a ban would make an OM with Tera allowed practically an inevitability, so there wouldn’t be any need for an unban.
And I think a large part of that complexity comes from things like chi-yu and shed tail still being in the format and muddying the waters of balance; if tera gets banned and then those problem things do as well, it feels kinda wack not to see how tera feels in a meta without them, ya know?
So to me (I've sat in the 16-1700s so obviously not an expert but just some observations), it very much depends on the Pokemon. Certain Pokemon, it really doesn't matter. There are a few that have like one Tera type and knowing that doesn't really help you. Dragonite is always Tera-Normal, and it's still enormously threatening. Dragapult isn't ALWAYS Tera-Ghost, but IMO running any other Tera type doesn't really get you anything other than surprising a single would-be check before being outright worse for the rest of the game. The Dragapult example definitely illustrates a few really useful points to remember when trying to parse out Tera vs. its abusers. Anything CAN run a niche Tera that blows by something that would otherwise check it. Most of those are generally just worse options than the standard ones because after luring that one thing, they don't provide the power or defensive utility that a better option would have; they are basically lures. So in addition to the standard opportunity cost of "I could also let a more dangerous Pokemon Tera this game", you also have "I could also be running a more generally useful Tera type on this mon specifically". And if you have a problem with the idea that any Pokemon has the ability to lure any of its checks, overall utility be damned? Tera Preview solves this.
Sure, Iron Valiant CAN run Tera Water for Volcarona/Skeledirge, or Tera Dark for Skeledirge/Gholdengo, but even if sacrificing the generally better option of Tera Fairy isn't enough of a drawback, Tera Preview means that you are never going to be surprised by getting smacked by a Tera Water if you're using your Volcarona as the primary Valiant counter. Sure, you still have to either prepare for all possible Tera lures in the teambuilder, but to be frank, my problems with Tera over my time laddering hasn't really been the fact that I sometimes get lured by a kinda gimmicky Tera and just lose because of it. Most things are much easier to blanket check with a solid bulky core when they're not running a Tera type that lets them overpower you.
Going back to your original question, certain Pokemon (Dragonite, Dragapult) are basically unchanged in a Tera Preview meta. Others aren't. For example, the team I like to ladder with has Kingambit to deal with Tera Fairy Espathra (which it deals with very well) and Dragapult to deal with Tera Fighting (it isn't perfect, because it's often coming in on a Calm Mind, but bulky sets are getting outsped and fast sets are getting smashed by Shadow Ball even at +1), plus Dragonite can revenge kill both sets. It's not that I can't handle Espathra, it's that if I send the wrong check out, then I lose that Pokemon and have to rely on Dragonite to 1v1 it. With Tera Preview, I know my counterplay from the start of the match. Roaring Moon is not a matchup I do great against (I generally rely on Tera Fairy Volcarona luring it), but my CB Dragonite can tank a hit with Multiscale, and EQ Tera Steel or ESpeed/Dragon Claw/Ice Spinner Tera Flying variants. I don't do great against it, but knowing its Tera means that I can hedge my reads and at least not get auto-swept because I hard called out the wrong Tera type.
Another answer to your question: no, I don't have assurance that my Tera Ghost Dragapult will actually kill that Skeledirge. Maybe he removes his Ghost weakness and OHKOs me. At the same time, though, I can just...switch out? I have other things that can take a single hit from anything Skeledirge can do and don't care about Wisp. If he Teras and uses a Ghost move, great, I just forced out the Tera for a lure that didn't work. If he switches out, okay, the situation resets. Maybe you switch out and he stays in and clicks Torch Song. The meta isn't a simple spreadsheet of fixed matchups, where every Pokemon always beats certain Pokemon and loses to others. Most of the time, you don't need to be in the headspace of "I either read the Tera with a super-effective move or I read the no-Tera with a super-effective move". Being able to hedge your bets and cover multiple options is really important. And again, doing that is much easier in a Tera Preview meta where you only need to hedge two options.
These answers, of course, have exceptions. Certain Pokemon do just have very limited counterplay even if you know their Tera type. Certain Pokemon don't need to lure you because there's just so little that you would expect to beat their good Tera sets anyway. My question, though, is how many of those there actually are, and how many of those are banworthy without Tera too? This isn't like Dynamax where everything that got a Flying move and a way to boost their power could 6-0 you, or at least force multiple sacs, if you aren't playing around the Dynamax at every turn. Most of the broken threats in this Tera meta are crazy without Tera, and are crazy in ways that could easily have been predicted (and if there was something that would just take their place, we could see it now). Chi-Yu is faster Lele with boosts on both STABs and a 130 BP STAB. Chien-Pao is gen 8 Weavile that trades Knock Off's utility for more power, more speed, a more reliable Fighting coverage option, and Sucker Punch. Annihilape is annoying with Tera, but it does mostly the same thing with Tera; Ghost-Fighting doesn't get hard-walled by much, and it's difficult to safely bring in the things that cleanly kill it, but if you don't, it will snowball like nothing else. Tera Normal Dragonite is the Aerilate AAA set that got banned from that meta, Tera Ghost Dragapult is, again, basically just a theorycrafted Adaptability AAA set.
Point is, some Tera abusers are made much easier to handle in a Tera Preview meta, and some are at least possibly still broken even without Tera. I very much disagree that the meta is being ruined by 50/50s everywhere, because a) those are part of Pokemon and b) most of them aren't true 50/50s because you have options to deal with the risk of both. To me, the bigger impact of Tera is 1) giving already problematic Pokemon a new power level (to which I'd argue we should just test those problematic Pokemon) and 2) giving you 50/50s against devastating set-up sweepers where guessing wrong just loses you the game (to which I'd say either Tera Preview allows you to handle those, your team isn't properly incorporating counterplay to those sweepers, or the sweepers are just busted, in which case either a Tera Ban or just direct suspect action on those Pokemon could be warranted).
I could be wrong! It's very possible that Tera, between the boosted STABs and the boosted coverage moves, just keeps OU at such a power level that, even with Tera Preview and after the most egregious stuff gets banned, is just too high for fatter teams to work well (although frankly, I think just banning Chi-Yu will do a lot to help with that). I really do think, though, that we would already have see, or at least theorise, if there were problematic Pokemon waiting in the wings for the current worst abusers to get banned. In a Tera Ban meta, we probably suspect Chi-Yu, some combination of Glimmora/Gholdengo/Grimmsnarl/Ape/Cyclizar, then maybe Chien-Pao? And in a Tera Preview meta, we probably suspect...those, plus Dragapult and Dragonite? It just seems lazy to me to default to the "Tera is going to make other stuff problematic in the future once we ban the currently problematic stuff, but we don't currently know what's problematic because the factors that make a Tera mon broken aren't as cut-and-dry as with Dynamax, but we just know there will be more problematic Tera abusers".
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I have to disagree with this. Unbanning things every time the meta changes Just To Make Sure™ is a lot of work when it’s something like Tera that you’d have to re-suspect every time. We didn’t unban Blaziken to “see how it felt” when Baton Pass got banned, for example (even though I personally believe that base form Blaziken without Baton Pass was never broken and it was kind of unfair to keep it Ubers for so long after Baton Pass went).
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