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Here's how it works.

Trump will clap DeSantis's cheeks in the primaries. Trumper has a ~90% approval rating among Republicans. Trump has a low approval rating for democrats and independents. Luckily their opinion is meaningless in primaries.

Desantis would be a good match for Biden and a real threat in 2024. He's less of a red flag for independents yet still has similar policies to Trump. Unfortunately for DeSantis, Trump clapped his cheeks and thus he won't run.

Biden will crush Trump because independents won't vote for Trump. Who gives a fuck who Republicans vote for when 30% of the country is on the fence, and that fence is far from Trump.

Republicans are fucked and the 2022 election red trickle is just the start of their party destroying itself. It would take a moderate to win, but until Trump dies or public opinion shifts drastically the Republicans are unlikely to find a moderate who can push through Trump. I unironically love Trump now, he's the Democrat's biggest ally.

Oh and public opinion WILL shift. Boomers are dying and millennial + gen Z are finally starting to vote. Oh boy gen z is so left leaning that they make millennials look like boomers. And the Zs are hitting 18, millions more every year. And voting gets these kids so fucking hard. They're going to flip the Republican party on its ass so much that 10 years from now you might see a Republican running on a platform of higher minimum wage or free college or something, because the party is dead if they don't. Maybe we'll see a hilarious future where Elon Musk runs as a Republican on a platform of supporting green energy, public transportation, and space travel running against AOC or someone running on Bernie's platform. Can't wait to see Republicans try to explain why electric cars are actually good.

Tldr in the short term Trump will fuck the Republicans, in the longer term gen Z is going to fuck them even harder. Am I drunk off Thanksgiving beer? Hell yeah brother. But I'm also drunk on progress. Drunk on freedom. Definitely drunk on Natty Daddys.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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Chou Toshio

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Here's how it works.

Trump will clap DeSantis's cheeks in the primaries. Trumper has a ~90% approval rating among Republicans. Trump has a low approval rating for democrats and independents. Luckily their opinion is meaningless in primaries.

Desantis would be a good match for Biden and a real threat in 2024. He's less of a red flag for independents yet still has similar policies to Trump. Unfortunately for DeSantis, Trump clapped his cheeks and thus he won't run.

Biden will crush Trump because independents won't vote for Trump. Who gives a fuck who Republicans vote for when 30% of the country is on the fence, and that fence is far from Trump.

Republicans are fucked and the 2022 election red trickle is just the start of their party destroying itself. It would take a moderate to win, but until Trump dies or public opinion shifts drastically the Republicans are unlikely to find a moderate who can push through Trump. I unironically love Trump now, he's the Democrat's biggest ally.

Oh and public opinion WILL shift. Boomers are dying and millennial + gen Z are finally starting to vote. Oh boy gen z is so left leaning that they make millennials look like Republicans. And the Zs are hitting 18, millions more every year. And voting gets these kids so fucking hard. They're going to flip the Republican party on its ass so much that 10 years from now you might see a Republican running on a platform of higher minimum wage or free college or something, because the party is dead if they don't. Maybe we'll see a hilarious future where Elon Musk runs as a Republican on a platform of supporting green energy, public transportation, and space travel running against AOC or someone running on Bernie's platform. Can't wait to see Republicans try to explain why electric cars are actually good.

Tldr in the short term Trump will fuck the Republicans, in the longer term gen Z is going to fuck them even harder. Am I drunk off Thanksgiving beer? Hell yeah brother. But I'm also drunk on progress.

Happy Thanksgiving!
The most optimistic and funny side of the probable spectrum. Mostly agree— and happy thanksgiving! Eat some Turkey for me my countrymen (ovens do not exist in Tokyo lols).

Please preserve the nation so my kids can some day go and substantiate their understanding of turkeys as more than a hypothetical bigger chicken.
 
Let's go Trump 2024!!!

I think we all knew Trump was going to run again. I believe a ticket of Trump+DeSantis would be the ultimate one two punch to knock Biden into the retirement home where he belongs. Biden is literally the weakest president we have had in decades if not centuries and he is a national embarrassment. We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats that America is facing like the border crisis, crime, Opoid epidemic, China, brainwashing of the youth and potential global war.
 

Chou Toshio

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Let's go Trump 2024!!!

I think we all knew Trump was going to run again. I believe a ticket of Trump+DeSantis would be the ultimate one two punch to knock Biden into the retirement home where he belongs. Biden is literally the weakest president we have had in decades if not centuries and he is a national embarrassment. We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats that America is facing like the border crisis, crime, Opoid epidemic, China, brainwashing of the youth and potential global war.
Who are you voting for in the 2024 Republican primary?

Assume Desantis also runs, and runs against Trump. Also assume no one else in there because quite frankly none of the rest of the "field" matters.
 
Let's go Trump 2024!!!

I think we all knew Trump was going to run again. I believe a ticket of Trump+DeSantis would be the ultimate one two punch to knock Biden into the retirement home where he belongs. Biden is literally the weakest president we have had in decades if not centuries and he is a national embarrassment. We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats that America is facing like the border crisis, crime, Opoid epidemic, China, brainwashing of the youth and potential global war.
Saying Biden is a "national embarrassment" and wanting Donald Trump back is like pointing and laughing at everyone around you for not shitting their pants at the same time you did. As someone who lives outside the US and as someone who got a bit a travel in during the Trump years, allow me to assure you that Republicans turned the United States into a laughingstock whose foreign policy could be altered with a measly two-billion-dollar bribe to the Trump family. It's also fucking absurd to say " We need a strong leader like Trump to face the future threats" when he already had four years that saw Trump either ignore said crises or actively make them worse, ESPECIALLY just before leaving office. You can lie to yourself, but don't expect anything other than being laughed at when you lie to us.


Your takes in the Russia thread suddenly make a lot more sense.
Ukrainians after the United States announces DeTrumpification and proscribes the Republican Party:

 
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I wonder if Bernie is going to try it a third (second ?????????) time. Something something third times the charm I guess. It's a bit unfortunate how anything that's not a right wing gets immediately destroyed by both parties, even if I find a lot of Bernie centrism extremely annoying (unga bunga israel supporter moment)
 
Who are you voting for in the 2024 Republican primary?

Assume Desantis also runs, and runs against Trump. Also assume no one else in there because quite frankly none of the rest of the "field" matters.
Trump all the way! I like how Trump isn't a career politician and doesn't hold back his opinions. Trump did amazing job in the first 4 years and will do even better in the next 4 years. He was instrumental in turning over Roe vs Wade among a lot of other things.
 
Trump all the way! I like how Trump isn't a career politician and doesn't hold back his opinions. Trump did amazing job in the first 4 years and will do even better in the next 4 years. He was instrumental in turning over Roe vs Wade among a lot of other things.
For the sake of this not becoming a far left circle jerk, and assuming you aren't trolling, what specifically did Trump do that you like?
 

Adeleine

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don't think we must go out of our way to foster and encourage the "balance" of support for a far-right minority-hating, democracy-weakening, environment-trashing, mind-numbingly corrupt manchild

"internet discourse" has poisoned the idea of "circle jerks" and """far-leftism""" but, like, consensus that we don't hate minorities (and several other reasons to dislike trump) is a good thing i think and not actually far leftism
 
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don't think we must go out of our way foster and encourage the "balance" of support for a far-right minority-hating, democracy-weakening, environment-trashing, mind-numbingly corrupt manchild

"internet discourse" has poisoned the idea of "circle jerks" and """far-leftism""" but, like, consensus that we don't hate minorities (and several other reasons to dislike trump) is a good thing i think and not actually far leftism
Smogon is a Pokémon forum with a majority userbase of 15-25 year olds. It absolutely does not represent US politics as a whole and like most other internet communities has a political demographic that lines up with millennials / gen Z (specifically the left leaning ones who play video games and post on Reddit, not the guy from your high school who has a truck for a Facebook profile picture and thinks liberalism is a disease). Actual US political demographics is closer to 50/50 with the independents leaning slightly left. If you don't encourage the opposition to post in these bubbles then you end up with this thread, which is mostly just a bunch of Pokémon players agreeing as how Trump / Republicans are bad, yet no one is actually having serious discussion about WHY people would want to vote for a right leaning candidate. Obviously not every Trump voter is a racist uneducated hillbilly and if you never even try to talk with the other side then you will remain ignorant of what they vote for, then you can't pick candidates who meet closer in the middle who will actually win an election.

For example many right leaning voters oppose a 15 an hour federal minimum wage. It's easy to say they hate poor people and shut them off when they try to talk. And yes, many have the stupid generic Boomer responses "Mcdonalds isn't supposed to be a career, higher min wage = inflation" etc. But if you actually talk to a conservative who is politically invested they might be more likely to just say they think minimum wage should be controlled by the states, as a livable wage in Los Angeles is different to Fort Wayne Indiana. People living in these areas wouldn't see quality of life increase with a higher minimum wage, they would see most small business destroyed, an increase in unemployment, and an increase in rent. Even if a person disagrees with that and thinks min wage would help rural areas it's important to actually talk with these people and address their concerns. Yeah a minimum wage increase will help far more people than it will hurt, but it WILL hurt some people and many people will vote against you if their fears aren't being addressed. Republican voters have actually voted in favor of minimum wage increases at the state and local level multiple times so the answer isn't as simple as them hating the poors.

I disagree with pretty much everything Republicans say but they still have opinions and the ability to vote, and if a person isn't willing to talk with them then they aren't helping anyone. Yeah you probably won't change the views of a super right-leaning red hat wearing Trump flag flying truck nuts guy but the majority of people aren't so far invested in their party that they couldn't have their opinion swayed. It's especially important to talk with the opposition on public forums where for every one person you reply to a hundred others will read your comment, and many of these people are politically centrists or otherwise "don't involve themselves" with politics. For these passive readers your comments could help sway them to see how unreasonable the other side is or how rational your ideas are. It's important to let people see both sides and decide for themselves. Just saying mean things about the other side isn't going to convince anyone in the same way that a Republican calling the lefts "Libtards" isn't going to make you sympathetic to them. We have to actually engage.

tl;dr online political discussion probably won't change the opinion of the person you're talking with but it will definitely help onlookers realize who the crazy one is which is probably the most important thing we can do in an era of political bubbles.
 
Yeah, no, how about instead we bypass the Republican voters, unionize the shit out of every sector we can, and force things like a 15 dollar minimum wage (or higher; 15 dollars is not livable in every part of the country) through with general strikes? Unionization is the engine to social change, not electoralism; both the working class and the bourgeoisie have known this for like 150 years now. There's a reason why companies fear unions the way they do, and why they will go to the enormous lengths and expenses that they do to union bust (including historically machine-gunning down striking workers and calling in militias to force workers to work at gunpoint like something straight out of Maoist China). You can thank unions for the fact that child labor isn't really a thing anymore, the fact that we actually have (some) safety standards for workers, and the fact that we have a minimum wage at all, even if it hasn't kept up with inflation for ~60 years.

Vote, sure, try to reach Republican voters and make them see sense, sure, but those should secondary goals next to unionization, and if I'm going to be 100% honest, moving a hardline MAGA-type over to a slightly less awful position of "hey, maybe every job should pay you enough to be able to live" is only a small improvement in the big picture as far as I'm concerned. We've got a lot more problems to tackle than just that. Our energy is better spent elsewhere in my opinion. When the quality of life for the majority of lower and lower-middle class Republicans improves drastically, while the quality of life of middle and upper-middle class Republicans doesn't deteriorate, they will begin to move over.
 
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Crunchman

Banned deucer.
Smogon is a Pokémon forum with a majority userbase of 15-25 year olds. It absolutely does not represent US politics as a whole and like most other internet communities has a political demographic that lines up with millennials / gen Z (specifically the left leaning ones who play video games and post on Reddit, not the guy from your high school who has a truck for a Facebook profile picture and thinks liberalism is a disease). Actual US political demographics is closer to 50/50 with the independents leaning slightly left. If you don't encourage the opposition to post in these bubbles then you end up with this thread, which is mostly just a bunch of Pokémon players agreeing as how Trump / Republicans are bad, yet no one is actually having serious discussion about WHY people would want to vote for a right leaning candidate. Obviously not every Trump voter is a racist uneducated hillbilly and if you never even try to talk with the other side then you will remain ignorant of what they vote for, then you can't pick candidates who meet closer in the middle who will actually win an election.

For example many right leaning voters oppose a 15 an hour federal minimum wage. It's easy to say they hate poor people and shut them off when they try to talk. And yes, many have the stupid generic Boomer responses "Mcdonalds isn't supposed to be a career, higher min wage = inflation" etc. But if you actually talk to a conservative who is politically invested they might be more likely to just say they think minimum wage should be controlled by the states, as a livable wage in Los Angeles is different to Fort Wayne Indiana. People living in these areas wouldn't see quality of life increase with a higher minimum wage, they would see most small business destroyed, an increase in unemployment, and an increase in rent. Even if a person disagrees with that and thinks min wage would help rural areas it's important to actually talk with these people and address their concerns. Yeah a minimum wage increase will help far more people than it will hurt, but it WILL hurt some people and many people will vote against you if their fears aren't being addressed. Republican voters have actually voted in favor of minimum wage increases at the state and local level multiple times so the answer isn't as simple as them hating the poors.

I disagree with pretty much everything Republicans say but they still have opinions and the ability to vote, and if a person isn't willing to talk with them then they aren't helping anyone. Yeah you probably won't change the views of a super right-leaning red hat wearing Trump flag flying truck nuts guy but the majority of people aren't so far invested in their party that they couldn't have their opinion swayed. It's especially important to talk with the opposition on public forums where for every one person you reply to a hundred others will read your comment, and many of these people are politically centrists or otherwise "don't involve themselves" with politics. For these passive readers your comments could help sway them to see how unreasonable the other side is or how rational your ideas are. It's important to let people see both sides and decide for themselves. Just saying mean things about the other side isn't going to convince anyone in the same way that a Republican calling the lefts "Libtards" isn't going to make you sympathetic to them. We have to actually engage.

tl;dr online political discussion probably won't change the opinion of the person you're talking with but it will definitely help onlookers realize who the crazy one is which is probably the most important thing we can do in an era of political bubbles.
This is tuff because what you’ve mentioned as examples of reasonableness are economic issues and most objections to right-wing politics have to do with the social issues, tbh. Only time economic issues come into play are when they have big social ramifications (think cutting Medicare) but really that’s still just a social issue operating under the guise of economics. Everyone wants to see the common man prosper (or at least claims to, that’s how you get votes). Left and right economic policy aren’t super different, there’s big business backing and influencing both sides of the aisle. For most people I would say that party preference is more tied to the social issues than to the economic issues and a lot of economic stances serve as guises to execute social agendas. Do people vote Republican for reasons without hateful undertones? Yeah sure maybe, but a large majority of policy and support for the party focus on contentious issues that sacrifice freedoms and quality of life for minorities of people in return for the affirmation of certain belief systems (most commonly some interpretations of Christianity, but everyone’s reasons are different; it should also go without saying that not all Christians vote republican. Kind of an apples are fruits but not all fruits are apples type of deal).

Adeleine’s point is pretty salient simply because there’s no reason to amplify an argument you’re not subscribed to. (Also, she obviously disagrees with the original post’s view, but she’s not saying that the post itself shouldn’t be made. Just that it shouldn’t be encouraged to expand for the sake of “preventing it from being a far left circle jerk”)

Just because everyone happens to think one way doesn’t mean that the other way needs to be pushed more just for the sake of it. It’s not like the other side hasn’t been considered, it has and it’s been thoughtfully rejected. My parents (since for most of the past few elections and all of the presidential ones I have been a minor) have always voted democrat except in 2016 when we voted for trump. In 2020 we switched back to Biden. When I first voted last election (not house/senate but state and county elections) I knew I subscribed to most left wing ideals (not all) and that greatly informed my decision making. This is all to say that while similar viewpoints may be tossed out, viewpoints are being made based on careful thought and aren’t predetermined. If they are naturally similar then that is okay, if they are naturally different that is also okay.
 
Biden is a disaster from a foreign pol perspective. Imagine being so bad you'll end up pushing most of Europe into the hands of Russia and China.

I hope Trump, Biden and all the other dinosaurs in the house and senate get annihilated in whatever elections they end up in, it's a joke that American politics is filled with geriatrics, most of whom have been in power for 30+ years and almost everything has gotten worse.
 

Chou Toshio

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Biden is a disaster from a foreign pol perspective. Imagine being so bad you'll end up pushing most of Europe into the hands of Russia and China.

I hope Trump, Biden and all the other dinosaurs in the house and senate get annihilated in whatever elections they end up in, it's a joke that American politics is filled with geriatrics, most of whom have been in power for 30+ years and almost everything has gotten worse.
“Buck Stops with Me.” Takes responsibility to pull out of Afghanistan— based

Give Ukraine weapons to defend themselves from fascist invasion but ignores hawk voices from both parties demanding troups/air cover in Ukraine— based

Supports Lula’s democratic victory and sends personal security consultation— based
(I mean you got a US President enabling democratic election of a Latin American leftist > fascist dictator instead of the usual couping the leftist to install the dictator)

Says we’ll defend Taiwan from China— as an Asian American living in Japan you don’t even need to ask how I feel about that one.

Single-handedly ends the Drone War— baaaaaasseed~~~

Overall there’s room for complaints (in anything) but foreign policy is an area where I support Biden the most.

There were even times in this Presidency when I agreed more with Biden than some shit parts of the left were saying.
 
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“Buck Stops with Me.” Takes responsibility to pull out of Afghanistan— based

Give Ukraine weapons to defend themselves from fascist invasion but ignores hawk voices from both parties demanding troups/air cover in Ukraine— based

Supports Lula’s democratic victory and sends personal security consultation— based
(I mean you got a US President enabling democratic election of a Latin American leftist > fascist dictator instead of the usual couping the leftist to install the dictator)

Says we’ll defend Taiwan from China— as an Asian American living in Japan you don’t even need to ask how I feel about that one.

Single-handedly ends the Drone War— baaaaaasseed~~~

Overall there’s room for complaints (in anything) but foreign policy is an area where I support Biden the most.

There were even times in this Presidency when I agreed more with Biden than some shit parts of the left were saying.
He got Americans killed the way he pulled out of Afghanistan and made the US look like a joke. Ukraine would have never have been invaded if Biden wasn't so pathetically weak on foreign pol beforehand.

The fascists in this war are the Ukrainians but regardless he still had the US dragging its heels giving Ukraine what they actually needed. Also the sanctions are a disaster and will push Europe into Russia and China's embrace, how on earth is this success?

I don't think supporting somebody who's owned by the cartels is a good thing no matter what you think of Bolsonaro. Also Lula is pro China

Taiwan is highly unlikely to be invaded, land is much easier than sea invasions.

Sorry but his foreign pol is a disaster.
 
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He got Americans killed the way he pulled out of Afghanistan and made the US look like a joke.
The US had been in Afghanistan for 20 years under four different presidents. Bush set up the occupation, Obama started drawing down troops, Trump wrote up the plans for the withdrawal, and Biden completed it (after delaying it for some time, to Trump's dismay). There are many different elements to be blamed for the Afghan war. The Afghans, the Taliban, the US, any number of the hundreds of politicians worldwide that influenced it, fuckin' Bin Laden. But blaming JUST Biden? Yeah sorry, that's ridiculous. Two decades of training, funding, and fighting and the Afghan resistance collapsed within days. Doesn't matter how we pulled out, it was clear another decade there wasn't going to change anything.

Ukraine would have never have been invaded if Biden wasn't so pathetically weak on foreign pol beforehand.
Ukraine was invaded under Obama in 2014 and has been fighting a low intensity conflict with Russia ever since. Trump withheld aid to Ukraine as a way to Blackmail Zelensky for dirt on his political rival. Biden passed the lend lease act and has done more to help Ukraine than literally any other nation.

The fascists in this war are the Ukrainians
A dictatorship invaded a democracy. I'm not sure you know what a fascist is.

but regardless he still had the US dragging its heels giving Ukraine what they actually needed.
What has the US not given Ukraine? Ukraine doesn't have the logistical infrastructure or trained soldiers to operate NATO weapons like Abrams, F35s etc and training takes many months or even years. Should Biden send them an aircraft carrier or nuclear submarine with no one to crew them?

Also the sanctions are a disaster and will push Europe into Russia and China's embrace, how on earth is this success?
Europe and NATO are more united than they have been since the fall of the Soviet Union, what on Earth are you talking about.

I don't think supporting somebody who's owned by the cartels is a good thing no matter what you think of Bolsonaro. Also Lula is pro China
He was democratically elected.

Taiwan is highly unlikely to be invaded, land is much easier than sea invasions.
Yes, Taiwan is an island. While China is unlikely to actually try and invade, so was Russia in Ukraine. China has made threats, and Biden is the first president in a long time to outright have the balls to say we will step in if fighting happens. With how raw Russia is getting fucked by Western armed-Ukraine I think it's safe to say Biden has made his stance on Taiwan perfectly clear, far from the usual unambiguity most presidents have.

Sorry but his foreign pol is a disaster.
lol
 
Adeleine’s point is pretty salient simply because there’s no reason to amplify an argument you’re not subscribed to. (Also, she obviously disagrees with the original post’s view, but she’s not saying that the post itself shouldn’t be made. Just that it shouldn’t be encouraged to expand for the sake of “preventing it from being a far left circle jerk”)

Just because everyone happens to think one way doesn’t mean that the other way needs to be pushed more just for the sake of it. It’s not like the other side hasn’t been considered, it has and it’s been thoughtfully rejected. My parents (since for most of the past few elections and all of the presidential ones I have been a minor) have always voted democrat except in 2016 when we voted for trump. In 2020 we switched back to Biden. When I first voted last election (not house/senate but state and county elections) I knew I subscribed to most left wing ideals (not all) and that greatly informed my decision making. This is all to say that while similar viewpoints may be tossed out, viewpoints are being made based on careful thought and aren’t predetermined. If they are naturally similar then that is okay, if they are naturally different that is also okay.
Thank you for engaging thoughtfully. I want to point out to you why your response didn't persuade me from agreeing with MrHands more, though. IMO, MrHands' most important point was that engaging with other's opinions is important for changing people's minds. I interpret your response as meaning 'We do not need to go out of our way to talk about views that we do not agree with because we have already reached our own conclusions.' I don't see how your point addresses MrHands' point that we should try to change people's minds by engaging with their opinions, and I think that changing people's minds is more important than only discussing the range of opinions that this thread is in agreement with.

You should either address how not engaging with other arguments is productive for changing people's minds or you should explain why trying to change other people's minds isn't important.
 
The idea that changing people's minds is a viable way to force social change presupposes that policy has any relationship to popular opinion. It does not. Between lobbying groups, corporations funding propaganda and misinformation campaigns, gerrymandering and voter suppression, the only way to honestly believe America exists within a remotely democratic framework is to not understand what democracy is. America is not and never really has been a democracy, liberals really need to stop gaslighting themselves into believing that it is and realize that that the only way viable way to fight systemic problems is with direct action.

I would love to change people's minds because more people believing good things instead of bad things is obviously a good thing in and of itself, but it isn't going to bring about meaningful changes in policy. You don't fight systemic problems at an individual level, you fight them at a systemic level.
 

Adeleine

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IMO, MrHands' most important point was that engaging with other's opinions is important for changing people's minds.
As MrHands said himself in the op, this style of impersonal internet debate is unlikely to change people's minds. Often, therefore, it's not important because it has about the same chance to work as Wales beating England by four goals today. (Praying it happens though.) Does that mean trying to change people's minds this way is pointless? Well, it depends.

Different people have different persuasion odds. To help understand that, I want to set up "deep wrong" versus "surface wrong". Everyone has room for improvement in their beliefs, factual understandings, opinions, and values. (If your response is "But opinions are subjective, how could one be better?" My response: "Is 'murder is generally bad' a better opinion than 'murder is generally good'"?) However, not all beliefs are equally imperfect. "I love fascism" is deeply wrong, and it tells more about a person, bad things, than "I think 15*15 equals 255," which like, oh well, no big deal.

The 15*15=255 person isn't that deeply wrong, and they probably share a lot of correct beliefs with me, giving us existent and good common ground. They probably think mathematics follows certain rules, trust calculators, you get it. I can enter 15*15 into Google, they will see 225, and they'll change their beliefs to be correct. In general, people who are more surface wrong are easier to persuade than people who are more deeply wrong.

From a lot of experience talking and watching politics on the internet (and real life some too), vocal Trump supporters tend to be very deeply wrong. They frequently prioritize their feelings of "winning" over actually becoming more correct, frequently box people into "evil villains" or "irrelevant other who deserves no attention" for very shallow reasons, and are frequently hostile to the processes of logic and science, among other things. The odds to persuade them, and benefit to talking with them in good faith, are very low on average.

I like disagreement and debate within a "less wrong range" more, as it's more likely to have people learn stuff, and it doesn't expose us all (especially the minorities threatened by Trump and his party) to deeply wrong and embarrassingly bad "argumentation." For example, steeldragon's reference to "brainwashing of the youth" is a frequent anti-LGBT dogwhistle, though, almost by definition, dogwhistles are not quite always used to hide the evil beliefs they frequently cover, so there's your disclaimer.

I would not necessarily support steeldragon's posts being deleted. However, I also see no need to actively draw more awful "discussion" from them with a good-faith invite like MrHands did. I especially don't see the need to draw them in out of desire to avoid a laughable "far-left circlejerk" bogeyman.

Edit: This video, while the tail end of a six part series, talks about challenges and disincentives to try and persuade people who are deeply wrong. I don't agree with all of it (at least with reference to the smogon dot com politics threads), but it has lots of good stuff, and maybe you see it differently. (just, like, replace feminism with not-republicanism and gamergate with republicanism) (great series btw)

Edit2: I HAD written about some important takeaways from the video, but it didnt save apparently. And Wales didn't win :(

Here's what I remember. When MrHands mentioned/implied that talking with deeply wrong people can benefit onlookers, he was totally right. However, as the video says, that benefit doesn't come from giving the deeply wrong arguments or people respect that is undeserved. It doesn't come from assuming good faith and giving friendly invites to spew more junk. It comes from systematically deconstructing the deeply wrong statements for the explicit benefits of onlookers.
 
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He got Americans killed the way he pulled out of Afghanistan and made the US look like a joke. Ukraine would have never have been invaded if Biden wasn't so pathetically weak on foreign pol beforehand.

The fascists in this war are the Ukrainians but regardless he still had the US dragging its heels giving Ukraine what they actually needed. Also the sanctions are a disaster and will push Europe into Russia and China's embrace, how on earth is this success?

I don't think supporting somebody who's owned by the cartels is a good thing no matter what you think of Bolsonaro. Also Lula is pro China

Taiwan is highly unlikely to be invaded, land is much easier than sea invasions.

Sorry but his foreign pol is a disaster.

Biden's decision to pull out of Afghanistan was forced by the Trump administration's drawdowns and empowerment of the Taliban. Ukraine was literally extorted by Trump for security guarantees, a fact the Zelenskyy government has been very forward about. You flat-out don't know what you're talking about, what you're saying is as factually wrong as flat-earth theory.
 

Chou Toshio

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He got Americans killed the way he pulled out of Afghanistan and made the US look like a joke.
The joke was so many Presidents staying in Afghanistan for so long. The fact that it crumbled in a night after decades of investment shows it was never going to work out. Could it have been done better? Yes. Was it going to be nice, clean, and perfect under anyone? NO. The whole Media ecosystem and even the whole Democratic Party might have shit on Biden for doing it, but I give him mad props for shouldering the responsibility of 3 fucked administrations before him with no one with the balls to man up to it.

This by the way, is actually a possible benefit of having an older President focused somewhat more on legacy building than career building. No way in fuck Buttegieg or Kamala or a hypothetical President AoC would do this. And all of these spineless Dems Dove and Hawk alike (including Bernie btw) refusing to stand with the President at the time-- was totally feckless.

In 2020 I didn't even vote for Joe. In a safe Blue state I voted for the Green Party after voting Bernie in the primary. BUT in the Afghan withdrawal I took my first HARD step towards Anarcho Bidenism.

Ukraine would have never have been invaded if Biden wasn't so pathetically weak on foreign pol beforehand.
Go to the Ukraine War thread and you can read my post outlining the economic and logistical reasons drive the need for Putin to invade in order to preserve the current Russian order. If Ukraine is allowed to fully liberalize and aligns with Europe (as IT wants to, and as freedom-minded people should cheer for it to) it will gain a path to become a huge competitor of Russia's; and Russia's military capability to prevent that path forward is on the decline-- it will only get harder for Putin to invade the longer he waits. From his perspective he faced growing pressure to pull the trigger, and looking at it in hindsight, from his perspective he probably pulled it too late.

What does matter, and what did fuck his ability to make pulling the trigger work was that Ukraine was already far more armed and competent than it was in 2014. And that ain't because of Obama, that's because of Biden AND Trump green lighting weapons, aid, and collaborative drills. GOOD

I’m not saying either of those admins did it all right— just that I’m glad Ukraine’s winning.

The fascists in this war are the Ukrainians but regardless he still had the US dragging its heels giving Ukraine what they actually needed. Also the sanctions are a disaster and will push Europe into Russia and China's embrace, how on earth is this success?
Just no.

I don't think supporting somebody who's owned by the cartels is a good thing no matter what you think of Bolsonaro.
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“Those in power can kill one, two, or three roses, but they will never be able to stop the coming of spring” - Lula da Silva.

Also Lula is pro China
He's a Latin American Leader. The US has continuously fucked Latin America. I don't blame Lula for building BRICS and trying to develop a power base outside of American hegemony.

That said, maybe Biden can please stop stamping on Railroad Worker Strikes, fully embrace Bernie, and then fully embrace our neighbors to the south:

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Taiwan is highly unlikely to be invaded, land is much easier than sea invasions.
Especially with Dank Brandon at the helm.

Sorry but his foreign pol is a disaster.
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