Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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IKR! Here's a replay too it's absolutely hilarious because it really showcases how no one expects how powerful it is https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1717505806-fwkl57qfp8z4oi2z8avftz243148m5apw
The funny thing is he totally lost if his corv was body press which it probably was
Would be interested in looking at some replays or what team you're using



I think by that point that Shed Tail may leave in the near future because of the egregious dynamic it brings to the tier, slow pivoting seems fine otherwise but i feel like it can be threatened too easily beside if as you said, you use agility
I don't really have any good replays showing off Gallade because I never really save replays, but here's the team I was using!
SV - CB Gallade (pokepast.es)
Team kinda gets 6-0'd by bundle, but like I said this was a couple days ago and I wasn't seeing it as much. I've since replaced TTar with SpDef Scream Tail because it kind of does the same thing and checks Bundle better, but the team is definitely not perfect. Also had TPunch over Brick Break on the cat but it doesn't really make much difference
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Banning an ability that only one Pokemon gets with nothing else getting it even being on the horizon would not make any sense.
I mean, it would make sense in some scenarios. If, say, a Pokémon got an Ability that was something like “this Pokémon gets +2 to every stat on switch-in always and can’t be phazed” or “this Pokémon has Brightpowder as an Ability and it stacks with actual Brightpowder because fuck you that’s why” (spoilers for Gen 10 probably) and the mon itself had other Abilities and was fine aside from that, then there would be a solid case for merely banning the Ability. This, of course, is not one of those scenarios. The problem here, and I’m sure we all recognize this but I’d just like to reiterate, is that the Ability by itself isn’t broken, just really good, and the only Pokémon that gets it doesn’t have anything else, so banning the Ability would effectively be banning the Pokémon anyway.
 
I think Chi-Yu is a huge problem, and Chien-Pao is too, but we're not ready for that conversation yet (and I mean that sincerely lol, I don't think the meta has developed in a way to make this obvious enough).

Annihilape is NOT overpowered though, Tera is the problem since it removes what should be a balancing weakness for it, its defensive typing.
 

Finchinator

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I mean, it would make sense in some scenarios. If, say, a Pokémon got an Ability that was something like “this Pokémon gets +2 to every stat on switch-in always and can’t be phazed” or “this Pokémon has Brightpowder as an Ability and it stacks with actual Brightpowder because fuck you that’s why” (spoilers for Gen 10 probably) and the mon itself had other Abilities and was fine aside from that, then there would be a solid case for merely banning the Ability. This, of course, is not one of those scenarios. The problem here, and I’m sure we all recognize this but I’d just like to reiterate, is that the Ability by itself isn’t broken, just really good, and the only Pokémon that gets it doesn’t have anything else, so banning the Ability would effectively be banning the Pokémon anyway.
If no other Pokemon got the ability, we would still likely ban the Pokemon in this case — but at least that’s a discussion worthy topic that we can debate. The situation with Gholdengo isn’t that at all.
 
Lol I'll look into those Gallade teams!

Also question, on what basis do pokemons get on the radar? Discussion among the council? Among the players? And at what point will we start suspect tests regarding any tier based decision?
 

Ema Skye

Work!
I'm sure someone will ask so I might as well ask it anyways: at what point would the council ban Rage First instead of Annihilape? Primeape gets the move too and while it hasn't gotten any attention, Rage Fist is the core of everything Annihilape does in the tier. Or is Annihilape's bulk and Ghost typing enough to just ban the Pokemon and not the move?

Kinda like the Houndstone situation with the future datamines, except we have a second user of the move already.
 

Finchinator

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Lol I'll look into those Gallade teams!

Also question, on what basis do pokemons get on the radar? Discussion among the council? Among the players? And at what point will we start suspect tests regarding any tier based decision?
Discussion among council ultimately does the trick, but as you see I’m active in following and responding to this thread, so community discussion plays a major role — that’s why we just added Gholdengo and the Ape, for example.

We probably are going to begin shifting focus to Tera and Tera discussion soon, which will ultimately lead to our first suspect in some capacity. From that point, it’ll likely be suspects rather than QBs unless we encounter extreme cases.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
If no other Pokemon got the ability, we would still likely ban the Pokemon in this case — but at least that’s a discussion worthy topic that we can debate. The situation with Gholdengo isn’t that at all.
I mean, Dugtrio was effectively the only Pokémon with Arena Trap because using Diglett or Trapinch is a great way to get laughed out of a room. But this avenue of discussion isn’t going to take us anywhere interesting or new, so let’s turn to another topic that I’ve been thinking about recently.

Has anyone been making use of the new items introduced this gen? I’ve seen Loaded Dice used on Breloom and it seems pretty solid, and Booster Energy is obvious, but has anyone found success with Covert Cloak or Clear Amulet?
 

Finchinator

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I'm sure someone will ask so I might as well ask it anyways: at what point would the council ban Rage First instead of Annihilape? Primeape gets the move too and while it hasn't gotten any attention, Rage Fist is the core of everything Annihilape does in the tier. Or is Annihilape's bulk and Ghost typing enough to just ban the Pokemon and not the move?

Kinda like the Houndstone situation with the future datamines, except we have a second user of the move already.
Primeape isn’t used with the move and the move is contingent on Pokemon taking multiple hits, so it’s not like you can isolate the move as being clearly broken itself.

Last Respects doesn’t require bulky Pokemon and can be abused through self-induced means such as Memento, foddering, natural game progress, and so on. That type of scaling move is more volatile and abusable. This requires a degree of strategy and unless other or multiple other Pokemon get it and prove to be problematic — which isn’t the case at all now, then we will focus only on the Pokemon.
 
I'm sure someone will ask so I might as well ask it anyways: at what point would the council ban Rage First instead of Annihilape? Primeape gets the move too and while it hasn't gotten any attention, Rage Fist is the core of everything Annihilape does in the tier. Or is Annihilape's bulk and Ghost typing enough to just ban the Pokemon and not the move?

Kinda like the Houndstone situation with the future datamines, except we have a second user of the move already.
is primeape broken with rage fist? the answer seems to be a clear no. in that case, if anything was getting banned, Annihilape would be, because we have precedent that there is other stuff that isn't broken with it. houndstone is different in that we don't have that precedent yet, because nothing else at this time learns Last Respects. A better example is Dracovish, as we have Arctovish as clear proof that Fishous Rend does not on its own make something unbearable

I mean, Dugtrio was effectively the only Pokémon with Arena Trap because using Diglett or Trapinch is a great way to get laughed out of a room. But this avenue of discussion isn’t going to take us anywhere interesting or new, so let’s turn to another topic that I’ve been thinking about recently.

Has anyone been making use of the new items introduced this gen? I’ve seen Loaded Dice used on Breloom and it seems pretty solid, and Booster Energy is obvious, but has anyone found success with Covert Cloak or Clear Amulet?
Not sure you know, but in the past, there were actually people that used Diglett and Trapinch with Arena Trap and it was still broken. Dugtrio was not the sole good user
 

Finchinator

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I mean, Dugtrio was effectively the only Pokémon with Arena Trap because using Diglett or Trapinch is a great way to get laughed out of a room. But this avenue of discussion isn’t going to take us anywhere interesting or new, so let’s turn to another topic that I’ve been thinking about recently.

Has anyone been making use of the new items introduced this gen? I’ve seen Loaded Dice used on Breloom and it seems pretty solid, and Booster Energy is obvious, but has anyone found success with Covert Cloak or Clear Amulet?
Dugtrio was banned initially. Then, people began using Diglett to similar effect with minimal extra support.

Same thing happened with the Goth line.

Therefore, we had to ban the abilities.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Dugtrio was banned initially. Then, people began using Diglett to similar effect with minimal extra support.

Same thing happened with the Goth line.

Therefore, we had to ban the abilities.
I remember Dugtrio being suspected but ultimately not banned by a slim margin. I do recall people using Trapinch on the suspect ladder, but I don’t seem to remember it being very successful.
 

Finchinator

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I remember Dugtrio being suspected but ultimately not banned by a slim margin. I do recall people using Trapinch on the suspect ladder, but I don’t seem to remember it being very successful.
Trapinch never caught on.

We had a legitimate amount of Diglett used after, at points in both gen7 (which had the initial Dugtrio suspect which has no ban) and gen8 (which has only an Arena Trap suspect which was a clear ban).

I just went back on phone and can confirm there are dozens of logs of us discussing Diglett years back, too, which I find pretty amusing.
 
Discussion among council ultimately does the trick, but as you see I’m active in following and responding to this thread, so community discussion plays a major role — that’s why we just added Gholdengo and the Ape, for example.

We probably are going to begin shifting focus to Tera and Tera discussion soon, which will ultimately lead to our first suspect in some capacity. From that point, it’ll likely be suspects rather than QBs unless we encounter extreme cases.
Does this mean Palafin won't get quickbanned? Seems even more restrictive than Flutter Mane was, imo, and I've seen a lot of people agreeing that it's unhealthy for the tier and should be banned.
 
My two cents on the new additions to the tiering radar
Gholdengo

Without a doubt the best enabler to entry hazard spam. Being able to block all forms of removal is really good. Its MU into Corviknight is great and so the only spinners I've found causing any fear for me are BIG Tusk and to a lesser extent Iron Treads. Corv U-turning on a Gholdengo switchin is also always pretty safe and has the benefit of popping Balloon if they're running it.

For some more off-meta counterplay, Torkoal, while not really able to switch into Gholdengo, at least makes it think twice about switching in, and I think Sun has a lot of potential in this meta (esp if Bundle and Palafin get axed). I haven't seen any (probably for good reason considering the ground and water infestation), but in the future I don't think Coalossal is completely outlandish either. I don't feel as though Cyclizar or Tsareena are entirely without tools to deal with Cheese man either.

Even without Gholdengo hazards are going to be an omnipresent force in this meta for the time being due to the lack of removal availability. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that more Pokemon should be opting into Boots. There is a substantial opportunity cost to this but especially if things slow down a little having boots on the likes of Chien-Pao, Iron Bundle, Dragapult, etc. will probably do a lot for their longevity.

I think this is not quickban worthy. Its great at punishing opponent mistakes but the counterplay feels adequate to me so far.

Annihilape

Monke seems pretty reasonable. It does require meticulous counterplay and you have to be very selective about when you're going to choose to hit it, and the Tera Water variant is really strong. The solid bulk means that it can almost always one-for-one at least in my experience, and its tough to handle, but I find it significantly less egregious than something like Palafin. Before it gets rolling the Ghost coverage is not nearly as threatening and you can heavily chunk it before it even has a chance to setup. Since entry hazards are everywhere in this meta as well, the natural bulk gets undercut slightly.
Also, its slow. Monke definitely gets victimized by faster mons, especially those that can hit it hard neutrally or SE like Chien-Pao, Iron Bundle, or Roaring Moon.
Also not quickban worthy in my opinion.
 
You said “it doesn’t 2HKO everything” but you’ve just posted a bunch of mons that get 2HKO’d by Specs + Spikes. Considering how easy it is to set hazards and how hard it is to remove them, you need to factor Spikes into every calc you do right now. That’s what makes Iron Bundle such a problem—most of its so-called “checks” start the battle with 75% HP. Blissey and Chansey are the only things that can reliably switch into Iron Bundle at the moment, unless you’re using something like Tera Steel Water Absorb, which denies you Tera on the rest of your team.
The threshold for being too strong offensively is pretty low if we move it to "2HKOs almost everything... with a choice item... and three layers of spikes".
 
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