Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[MasterPlayer]

It might be a solution, but you can still manually switch to get hero form.

But that's the thing. It not only scares Palafin, but also punishes it should it go for a switch either done manually or with Flip Turn because the enemy is basically giving Iron Bundle a free KO. While I'm at it, a Glaceon lead with Freeze-Dry could also work especially since Glaceon is slower, meaning that Palafin is always going to go first if this is used intentinoally and with Glaceon going for a turn 1 Tera Water means that if it goes for the swtch, Glaceon is gonna get a kill against whoever that comes in that isn't Blissey because it's SpA is higher that Iron Bundle's SpA. And not even Grass types are safe because Glaceon packs Freeze-Dry to hit them hard if they don't have any SpD investment

 

[BeeOrSomething]

"Flutter Mane will arguably go down as one of the most broken presences to ever grace an Overused metagame in competitive Pokemon's lengthy history" - Finchinator

 

[Goodstyle]

Flutter Mane lost to basically all priorty, so it wasn't THAT broken. Definitely deserved to be banned, but nowhere near historically busted.

 

[Negative Charge]

I’ll throw my two cents in: just ban last respects. This is silly. Why can’t we just tier with a scalpel instead of sledgehammer, just once?

 

[nimzowitsch]

Flutter Mane lost to basically all priorty, so it wasn't THAT broken. Definitely deserved to be banned, but nowhere near historically busted.

Breloom: Am I a joke to you?

Ye, of all the busted mons in OU history, Flutter Mane is certainly up there, but I wouldn't put it above BW Deoxys-A haha

 

[chimp]

A Tera Preview mod would still allow the mechanic to enable busted up sweepers and would lead to some really awkward 50/50s which really aren’t particularly good for a metagame. A good rule of thumb is; if a mechanic is so busted you have to mod the game to nerf it, it should probably just be banned outright. Is Terastalizing really that compelling of a mechanic that we need to bend over backwards to let it stay? I don’t think so.

And before you say it, Sleep Clause has precedent as an official Nintendo rule. HP% mod just does the math legwork for you, it doesnt drastically give you information you wouldn’t otherwise be privy to.

 

[Turtleye_]

I've been running Curse Dondozo and IDBP Garganacl (not on the same team). Both are incredible win-conditions that really don't need much to just end a game. Sometimes they just win in team preview, set up a few boosts and collect your rating. Dondozo is a bit harder to pull off than Garganacl imo, because salt cure + recover is incredible at forcing out defensive answers.

Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Liquidation
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The main answers I've run in to so far for this set are Clodsire with Water Absorb and Iron Bundle. Grass Tera to turn the table on mons with Electric coverage. It also just doubles as a really solid defensive answer into stuff like Chien Pao, Palafin, and Great Tusk, to name a few. It comes in, sets up a curse or two whilst being incredibly bulky, rests up and then starts cleaning house.

Garganaci (Garganacl) @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Salt Cure
- Recover
- Body Press
- Iron Defense

Boy is this thing a threat. The main thing holding Garganacl back is the omnipresence of Great Tusk, but I see him often ran as hazard control so he's usually able to get pressured out. Been pairing it with Corviknight and Dondozo (RestTalk 2 attacks) to handle Tusk. The other things threatening it are Iron Valiant, Iron Bundle, and strong Fight/Ground stabs in general.
Garg is surprisingly tanky on the special side and after a single ID it just sits on most physical attackers that can't boost up alongside it. The key to this set is Poison Tera, though. It completely swings the Breloom matchup as it now can't spore you anymore, or hit you with Bullet Seed or a fighting move. Same goes for a lot of other mons with Fighting coverage. It does add a new weakness to Psychic though, but most mons have Psyshock as their psychic coverage so it's not too awful. It's not the most reliable because you do need to switch in Garg first before you can Tera but once you do its very nice. Also absorbs tspikes which is a good bonus!

Iron Bundle eats both of these mons for breakfast though, and with Bundle stonks on the rise it wouldnt surprise me if these mons fall off a bit.

But, give these mons a try if you want a more BO/Balance approach, they're good!

 

[MasterPlayer]

Also Dondozo with Avalanche looks very goodbusted because it pretty much slaps the uno revense card on anything that isn't Breloom if it goes for Avalanche and it's huge HP and Defense stats lets it wall quite a lot of things with Leftovers for recovery. This and Palafin could make up for a nasty duo and if Iron Bundle goes away they will be extremely hard to counter

 

[Finchinator]

Flutter Mane lost to basically all priorty, so it wasn't THAT broken. Definitely deserved to be banned, but nowhere near historically busted.

It Tera'd around a lot of the priority, making it even more crazy.

 

[MudkipNerd]

you know whats the number one pokemon of all time though??? assault vest kingambit

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Ye, of all the busted mons in OU history, Flutter Mane is certainly up there, but I wouldn't put it above BW Deoxys-A haha

Still doesn't even compare to the insanity that was SM OU Marshadow. The fact that Marshadow was OU at all is just baffling to me



Anyway, Thoughts on the broken stuff that is left:

Iron Valiant/Roaring Moon: Suspect? (Don't know enough about either but both could become more broken with time, and neither seem like they are nearly as broken as some more absurd stuff in OU right now.)

Iron Bundle: Quickban it please... I love using this mon but Specs is nigh unwallable... (This mon makes SwSh Kyurem look bad in comparison.) People are finally catching on to how stupidly op this mon is and I think it should be on the radar now and genuinely should be considered for a quickban... Turns out that is probably just as broken as flutter mane and people didn't realize until now, which kind of impresses me!

Chien Pao: Should get Quickban, Mega Weavile also too much for OU, and I don't even have to explain why its broken because a bunch of people here have already explained that it has incredible coverage, incredible stats, and a defense reducing ability.

Palafin-H: Quickban. Palafin is so oppressive with bulk up jet punch, and it gets coverage like ice punch to beat its counters. One of the few feasible counters that kind of works if you can keep it from bulking up is iron bundle and iron bundle is stupid busted so it becomes a broken checking broken situation that nobody wants...

Terastal: Suspect. Probably broken but nowhere near on Dmax level, and thus deserves a fair shake.

Shed Tail/Cyclizar: Personally would prefer suspect on shed tail, as the move itself is what seems uncompetitive, as cyclizar is kind of mediocre without it, and Orthworm is unviable in the higher tiers without it.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Have we ever thought of considering turn 1 Tera for even more unpredictability?

 

[Emptymap]

The key to this set is Poison Tera, though. It completely swings the Breloom matchup as it now can't spore you anymore, or hit you with Bullet Seed or a fighting move. Same goes for a lot of other mons with Fighting coverage. It does add a new weakness to Psychic though, but most mons have Psyshock as their psychic coverage so it's not too awful. It's not the most reliable because you do need to switch in Garg first before you can Tera but once you do its very nice. Also absorbs tspikes which is a good bonus!

How about Flying Tera? With that you can handle Great Tusk's STABS, though I suppose you're vulnerable to being poisoned and can't absorb tspikes now.

 

[BeeOrSomething]

in all honesty, flutter mane was really really good, but I definitely wouldn't call it among the best mons banned from ou
deoxys-attack, genesect, skymin, darkrai, mega mence, marshadow, mega-lucario, arguably even deoxys-normal, landorus-incarnate, dracovish, and zamazenta were all much stronger/more oppressive

 

[Turtleye_]

How about Flying Tera? With that you can handle Great Tusk's STABS, though I suppose you're vulnerable to being poisoned and can't absorb tspikes now.

Probably works fine too, but you gain a weakness to Rocks which hurts your capability to switch in to things. Most Tusks seem to run either Ice Spinner or Stone Edge anyway so I'm not sure if it's worth it, but you can definitely try

 

[BolTingBlazie]

in all honesty, flutter mane was really really good, but I definitely wouldn't call it among the best mons banned from ou
deoxys-attack, genesect, skymin, darkrai, mega mence, marshadow, mega-lucario, arguably even deoxys-normal, landorus-incarnate, dracovish, and zamazenta were all much stronger/more oppressive

Deoxys-attack, Marshadow, Mega-Lucario, Mega-Mence and Marshadow are probably the 5 most broken pokemon ever allowed in ou in all honestly...

 

[MasterPlayer]

Also has anyone in the history of competitive ever thought of making a Glaceon with Defense EVs along with the SpAs? because in the current meta (and especially once Iron Bundle goes away) it'll be harder to handle Palafin-H, but I'm sure that Defensive Glaceon could punch holes in teams with something like Tera Water to nullify it's previous weaknessesand hit anything that isn't specially defensive hard (still has to keep an eye out for Breloom but I doubt the two mons will end up in the same tier)

 

[Player J]

Ladies & Gentlemen
I know I am a little late to the conversation, but I wanted to share my experience.

I also want to say I am not the best Pokémon player.
I think the highest ranking I ever reach is 1200.

With the above things in mind, I wanted to show the Team I been using in Lower legends.
A lot of players have been running very aggressive Offensive Attackers in Gen 9.
- Flutter Mane
- Chien Po
- Dragon Pult
- Iron Bundle

With all of these very Offensive & Aggressive Pokémon at Play, I decided to make a very Defensive & Bulky Pokémon team.
My goal with my team was to survive the Enemy attacks, Heal off the Damage, & Slowly wear down the enemy.

In order to make Defense/Bulky team win, I had to think about using Pokémon which could survive the top 4 Attackers in Gen 9.
This ultimately lead me to a quest to find the counters.

Clodsire @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Skeledirge @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 81 HP / 175 Def / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Hex

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Punch

Tinkaton (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Play Rough
- Gigaton Hammer

Arboliva @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Energy Ball
- Hyper Beam

Iron Bundle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Whirlpool
- Hydro Pump

 

[bogglywoods]

Also has anyone in the history of competitive ever thought of making a Glaceon with Defense EVs along with the SpAs? because in the current meta (and especially once Iron Bundle goes away) it'll be harder to handle Palafin-H, but I'm sure that Defensive Glaceon could punch holes in teams with something like Tera Water to nullify it's previous weaknessesand hit anything that isn't specially defensive hard (still has to keep an eye out for Breloom but I doubt the two mons will end up in the same tier)

I'm assuming people have considered it and it didn't work out at all seeing as Glaceon is pretty relegated to PU/being untiered. It has good defense but Ice is not at all a good defensive type. Anything defensive that can't safely switch into Stealth Rocks is also not great.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I think a Freeze-Dry Iron Bundle lead (that might not last long because it might get banned due to how insanely fast it is) could scare a Palafin Lead who thinks they can have a free switch at the start of the game to get their win condition set up

If iron bundle gets quickbanned, it won't just get quickbanned for being fast, bundle is gonna get quickbanned for being unwallable too. Freeze Dry + Hydro Pump is actually unwallable. Priority isn't even that great of an answer to it unlike flutter mane, since it does not even get okho'd by monstrous priority moves like Exremespeed coming off of Dragonite and Scizor surprisingly. The fact that it was just as broken and meta warping as flutter mane and no one realized until flutter mane got banned today is kind of funny to me...

 

[alephgalactus]

just played a game in which cyclizar was the last mon, it kept putting up subs without using hp. Is that how it is on cart or is a glitch on showdown?

I don’t know, but either way, this is a case for an immediate ban of Shed Tail, either to re-tool the move to work properly (if a glitch) or because that’s just absurd and incredibly uncompetitive (if not a glitch).

 

[AHHHHHHHH]

I don’t know, but either way, this is a case for an immediate ban of Shed Tail, either to re-tool the move to work properly (if a glitch) or because that’s just absurd and incredibly uncompetitive (if not a glitch).

dont have the replay but heres a snap shot

 

[Mister Marshadow]

Just wanted to share a possible set for a Pokemon I think is underrated right now. 155HP/135def makes very bulky and gives it strong body presses and 110 attack makes its earthquake better than most defensive STABs. To top it all off, it gets stealth rock (and spikes).

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Ruination
- Body Press
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

 

[Lily]

I wanna talk a bit about Iron Thorns real quick bc I think he's quite slept on:


Iron Thorns @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock (this can be so much more! coverage out the ass, tera blast is nice too)

Water is just a generic defensive Tera that I used for the sake of resisting Jet Punch; other decent options ime include Flying (immune to EQs thrown at you, resist Mach Punch from Breloom which ime is a big danger for HO, neutral to a lot of other prio), Rock (haha stone edge go brr), Grass (good midground for resisting Jet Punch + Ground), but anyway I think this mon is really good on HO. You can say that about like all the paradox mons but shrug, I really wanna talk about how nuts this is though.

Nothing in SV OU really tanks these 2 moves at +2, p much everything that could got snapped; Toedscruel and Breloom are the only 2 mons that resist both and they both get wiped off the face of the earth:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 225-264 (86.2 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (+1 + booster energy, dies guaranteed if ur rock tera obv)
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Tentacruel: 233-274 (64 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge damage (idk if anyones running this mon or what spreads theyre running if so but ya not much chip required, dies if u rock tera, u wall it if grass tera, etc)

Its Speed tier is really nice, it's unfortunately slower than Chien-Pao even at +1 but these EVs let you outspeed Meowscarada at +1; you could go higher if Kilowattrel or Weavile end up being relevant but I don't see either happening (assuming Chien-Pao stays in the tier that is). Obviously after a DD you just kinda obliterate shit, like a lot of the mons ppl use to "check" this are just not answers at all lol, for example:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 428-504 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 452-532 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 374-442 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 261-308 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's not perfect obvs, you're walled pretty hard by Quagsire unless you're Ground Tera (or Grass Tera Blast) and stuff like Hippo can soft check, but being super bulky & having overall solid coverage against everything while being so strong with Booster Energy and compressing the SR slot for HO makes this mon worth looking into imo.

Here's the 5 min team I built with it; I played like 5 games so I'm sure there's a ton I'm missing, but it was fun to mess around with and I won em all (albeit on very low ladder). https://pokepast.es/539113de37e88920 don't face breloom!

fun meta overall hoping it shapes up well :D

 

[SunCooled]

dont have the replay but heres a snap shot

Can confirm this is a glitch after 10 seconds of testing.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1716683563

Roomstaff on PS are aware of the issue at the moment.