Resource Scarlet & Violet VGC Discussion

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Giokio

#1 Nia simp
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Hello Everyone, S/V Leaks have started to give us stats and abilities for the new Pokemon, and they're pretty interesting so far. That's why I thought it would be a good idea to let people talk about their opinion on them. Keep in mind that the new VGC format has yet to be announced, so everything here will be speculation at best, even if it will probably be only regional Dex.
Nothing in this thread can be regarded as absolute truth, leaks by definition are not official and there are many fake ones around, so let me know if you know that something is confirmed to be fake.
You can use this thread for everything related to the next VGC format and the leaked Pokemon, here are some pictures of what we have:

Stats, learnsets, and TMS :
https://pastebin.com/6cYuSv92 (part 1)
https://pastebin.com/wKuA8ZRj (part 2)
Everything:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lview?pru=AAABhJuRbTI*oI4OOljQU3Yvyc-MLYJQZg#

Updates: https://twitter.com/CentroLeaks

The Highlights seem to be the new Paradox Pokemon and Sprigatito's final form, (THAT THING IS AS FAST AS A NOIVERN), i'm excited to learn what you think, have fun and be respectful of everyone's opinion.
(I'll update this everytime i find new leaked info online or one of you sends it, so stay tuned!)
 
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Regarding Paradox Pokemon:
The new Salamence will be broken if its real and intimidate gets a nerf where its a one-time thing like has been leaked for contrary and defiant. The Future Volcorona is already good, insane if it keeps fiery dance and broken if it keeps its bug moves. Though that would be really weird and i expect amoonguss to be mid, if its movepool becomes anything like the one it currently has its gonna be even more of a fucking pain. Mismagius seems like a frailer Spectrier with coverage, and im not sure how that trade-off works out but it does seem very good. Hariyama is just really strong and insanely bulky especially on the physical side, with that unique typing its gonna be viable for sure but idt it would be a top tier meta threat just because physical electric move suck and its really slow and might not have enough sweeping potential to be worth it in TR compared to some threats like Torkoal, but also potentially Ursaluna and Enamorus. Magneton, Hydreigon and Future Donphan dont look insanely dangerous but can definitely be good with the right movepool. Hydreigon does sound outclassed by Moltres-Galar in later formats. I dont really like the Gardevoir/Gallade because of fairy/fighting, you would rather have a fairy type be a spatker and a fighting type a physical attacker and its stats being so mixed takes a lot out of the other stats. However the speed is good and the attacking stats are good while the defenses arent the worst thing ever so it can just be quite strong especially since i think the ability is like beast boost? Past Volcorona just reminds me of Buzzwole which isnt the best pokemon, but maybe in a regdex format it'll see some results (also it doesnt look like it'll get close combat which is the one thing making Buzzwole scary). I dont like the Tyranitar typing and not having sand stream sucks, normal Tyranitar is way better. Past Donphan has a slightly awkward speed tier and bad spdef and the typing though interesting isnt my favourite. Unless The Jigglypuff mon gets like follow me its attacking stats are just too bad.
 

Borghi

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break down of the starters, may talk about the past&future mons later

Meowscarada
Protean is broken, so thats going for it. The base typing is fucking horrid though. A 4x weakness to U-Turn and otherwise being insanely frail is not the best trait to have. 123 Speed stat and a 110 Attack stat both look super great. It seems like this Pokemon should be learning Fake Out, but otherwise this one is going to entirely come down to the spread of its moves. Grass types don't tend to have a very diverse movepool in general, so I'm actually not very hopeful on this one's future.

Skeledirge
A bulky Fire/Ghost type seems interesting, but honestly the typing is kinda shit defensively. 104/100/75 defenses are solid, but nothing to write home about. It's speed stat at 66 is mediocre at best. 110 SpA is very good, but its a lot weaker than its contemporaries. Unaware is a good ability, but not on this Pokemon. You can ignore Azumarill's boosted Jet, but like, its still a Huge Power Jet being thrown your way. All in all, Skeledirge pales in comparison to Chandelure and H-Typholosion, who do the Fire/Ghost thing both faster and stronger.

Quaquaval
Water Fighting is a solid typing. Average defenses and a decent speed stat don't actually do much for it however. This Pokemon is probably gonna end up running around the 128 speed stat range, and try to make the best use of its great 120 Attack stat. Mold Breaker in general is an okay ability. The only real applicability to it is ignoring Gastrodon's Storm Drain and maybe being able to 1hko some mons around Sturdy? Overall I think Quaquaval is probably the best of the starts, but otherwise I think they all have the Gen 2 treatment of none of them being viable.
 
break down of the starters, may talk about the past&future mons later

Meowscarada
Protean is broken, so thats going for it. The base typing is fucking horrid though. A 4x weakness to U-Turn and otherwise being insanely frail is not the best trait to have. 123 Speed stat and a 110 Attack stat both look super great. It seems like this Pokemon should be learning Fake Out, but otherwise this one is going to entirely come down to the spread of its moves. Grass types don't tend to have a very diverse movepool in general, so I'm actually not very hopeful on this one's future.

Skeledirge
A bulky Fire/Ghost type seems interesting, but honestly the typing is kinda shit defensively. 104/100/75 defenses are solid, but nothing to write home about. It's speed stat at 66 is mediocre at best. 110 SpA is very good, but its a lot weaker than its contemporaries. Unaware is a good ability, but not on this Pokemon. You can ignore Azumarill's boosted Jet, but like, its still a Huge Power Jet being thrown your way. All in all, Skeledirge pales in comparison to Chandelure and H-Typholosion, who do the Fire/Ghost thing both faster and stronger.

Quaquaval
Water Fighting is a solid typing. Average defenses and a decent speed stat don't actually do much for it however. This Pokemon is probably gonna end up running around the 128 speed stat range, and try to make the best use of its great 120 Attack stat. Mold Breaker in general is an okay ability. The only real applicability to it is ignoring Gastrodon's Storm Drain and maybe being able to 1hko some mons around Sturdy? Overall I think Quaquaval is probably the best of the starts, but otherwise I think they all have the Gen 2 treatment of none of them being viable.
I do think Meowscarada isnt only gonna learn fake out but also uturn and knock off. Fake out/uturn/knock off/leaf blade with protean would make for a strong AV set right?
 
104/100/75 defenses are solid, but nothing to write home about
it is better than both quagsire and clefable at least I feel like this is playable if you want unaware
sure 5 weaknesses but resisting fairy+steel is sweet


move sets def matter of course so nothing written off quite yet
I will be forcing quaquaval onto a team because it's my favorite typing
 
it is better than both quagsire and clefable at least I feel like this is playable if you want unaware
sure 5 weaknesses but resisting fairy+steel is sweet


move sets def matter of course so nothing written off quite yet
I will be forcing quaquaval onto a team because it's my favorite typing
Yeah but neither of these are VGC mons (clefable isnt terrible but you can do a lot better than it), they mostly invest into one defense stat that they're checking which is easier to get away with in singles since you can choose what attackers u're facing (somewhat)
 
Yeah but neither of these are VGC mons (clefable isnt terrible but you can do a lot better than it), they mostly invest into one defense stat that they're checking which is easier to get away with in singles since you can choose what attackers u're facing (somewhat)
both of them can be played in vgc from time to time
I tried to use quagsire as a zacian counter, for example
 

Borghi

Banana eater
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
break down of the starters, may talk about the past&future mons later

Meowscarada
Protean is broken, so thats going for it. The base typing is fucking horrid though. A 4x weakness to U-Turn and otherwise being insanely frail is not the best trait to have. 123 Speed stat and a 110 Attack stat both look super great. It seems like this Pokemon should be learning Fake Out, but otherwise this one is going to entirely come down to the spread of its moves. Grass types don't tend to have a very diverse movepool in general, so I'm actually not very hopeful on this one's future.

Skeledirge
A bulky Fire/Ghost type seems interesting, but honestly the typing is kinda shit defensively. 104/100/75 defenses are solid, but nothing to write home about. It's speed stat at 66 is mediocre at best. 110 SpA is very good, but its a lot weaker than its contemporaries. Unaware is a good ability, but not on this Pokemon. You can ignore Azumarill's boosted Jet, but like, its still a Huge Power Jet being thrown your way. All in all, Skeledirge pales in comparison to Chandelure and H-Typholosion, who do the Fire/Ghost thing both faster and stronger.

Quaquaval
Water Fighting is a solid typing. Average defenses and a decent speed stat don't actually do much for it however. This Pokemon is probably gonna end up running around the 128 speed stat range, and try to make the best use of its great 120 Attack stat. Mold Breaker in general is an okay ability. The only real applicability to it is ignoring Gastrodon's Storm Drain and maybe being able to 1hko some mons around Sturdy? Overall I think Quaquaval is probably the best of the starts, but otherwise I think they all have the Gen 2 treatment of none of them being viable.
Update on Quaquaval

Now confirmed that it’s hidden ability is Moxie, not Mold Breaker. This is a huge change. In addition, it gets Aqua Step, an 80 BP move that raises speed and doesn’t make contact (unconfirmed on contact or not).

What was before a mediocre typing due to its speed stat, now becomes insanely strong, as it can instantly boost its speed, and if timed right, can boost both attack and speed in a single turn. Add to it that it likely gets Close Combat and a most likely something like Brave Bird, this is easily the best starter of the bunch
 

Ace Emerald

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What is everyone's thoughts on the paradox Pokémon Abilities and how they interact with Sun teams/Electric Terrain?
I mean that totally depends on how big the boost is. Sun is pretty good on its own, especially with some of the new leaked Pokémon, so regardless of the boost level you will probably see scarlet exclusives on those builds. Electric terrain is a little less good, especially if pinchurrin is the only legal setter, so my guess is there will be far fewer teams centered around the violet paradox pokemon. If the boost is significant (1.3 or higher) I'd expect to see paradox Pokémon from both games holding the booster item on teams without sun/electric terrain. Especially if gamefreak gives us another no drawbacks 1.5 boost ability, that is worth utilizing an item for as it is essentially a better Choice Item/Assault vest.
 
Do we have any more info on new moves?


Knowing oricorio is returning I'm curious if there are any new dance moves that could give it a niche
 
I feel like from what we currently know, in VGC 2023 every paradox is just gonna run the item, saccing item and ability is rough but a choice boost without choice lock is so worth it. Besides pincurchin is bad especially without rising voltage and most past mons dont really fit on sunroom teams to abuse torkoals sun (the only good partner for it is hariyama imo who is in violet so electric terrain)
 

Giokio

#1 Nia simp
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I feel like from what we currently know, in VGC 2023 every paradox is just gonna run the item, saccing item and ability is rough but a choice boost without choice lock is so worth it. Besides pincurchin is bad especially without rising voltage and most past mons dont really fit on sunroom teams to abuse torkoals sun (the only good partner for it is hariyama imo who is in violet so electric terrain)
Yes, i think it's how they balanced them, bad terrain setters
 
I feel like from what we currently know, in VGC 2023 every paradox is just gonna run the item, saccing item and ability is rough but a choice boost without choice lock is so worth it. Besides pincurchin is bad especially without rising voltage and most past mons dont really fit on sunroom teams to abuse torkoals sun (the only good partner for it is hariyama imo who is in violet so electric terrain)
For what matters, from a 2nd bit of datamine that's buried in the OI thread, it does look like that all the paradoxes learn their respective weather/field abilities.
Some of the more utility oriented paradoxes like not-jigglypuff may or may not be able to be supportive and set it manually as well, assuming the payoff for the other mons is worth it (plus, making it a non once-per-switchin since the item is consumed)
 
Also i just heard grimmsnarl is gonna get parting shot, thats gonna be so centralizing especially in regional dex game freak doesnt learn from their mistakes god damn. Spirit Break fake out thunder wave parting shot with sitrus sounds like a really broken support set thats basically incin +speed control
 
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For what matters, from a 2nd bit of datamine that's buried in the OI thread, it does look like that all the paradoxes learn their respective weather/field abilities.
Some of the more utility oriented paradoxes like not-jigglypuff may or may not be able to be supportive and set it manually as well, assuming the payoff for the other mons is worth it (plus, making it a non once-per-switchin since the item is consumed)
But at that point shouldnt they just be using a boosting move?
 

Ace Emerald

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Here are my initial thoughts based on just the stats, moves, and ability texts. I haven't seen any hard numbers on the new abilities, so I'll be making some guesses. I'm ready for all these takes to age poorly, but if even one pans out I will point to this post as proof of my peerless genius :)

Busted On Paper
Another generation leak, another month of people freaking out about stats of Pokemon they haven't played a single game with. That said: there are some Pokemon packing a lot of power in this generation. Will they pan out to be actual meta threats? Here are the early ones to watch:

Roaring Moon - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis

Based purely on stats, Roaring Moon has the most splashable potential. It has the best blend of power, speed, and bulk of any of the Paradox Pokemon. For reference, it is stronger and faster than Garchomp, has more Special bulk, and a little less Physical bulk. It can setup with Dragon Dance, support with Tailwind, or pivot with U-turn. It pays for these advantages with less optimal typing, Terastylizing could mitigate this but it can probably operate fine without it. Overall, it seems worth using on aggressive balance cores, even completely ignoring the ability. But factoring in the ability is where things go from "good" to "potentially meta defining".

I disagree that Roaring Moon can't fit on a Sun team. All the meta defining Sun teams of last generation were Trick Room optional, flexing GMax Charizard as a powerful sweeper. And I think there is a real potential for Roaring Moon to slot into Sun teams in a similar role. It threatens a lot of Pokemon that match well into typical Sun leads, like other Dragon-types or Fire-types. And if Protosynthesis is a 1.5 level boost, wow are these calcs crazy. It pretty much 2HKOs anything that doesn't resist its STABs.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Rotom-W: 126-149 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Corviknight: 133-157 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Figy Berry recovery

And if you want to Tera to Fire-type, well you basically OHKO anything that doesn't resist, and 2HKO even moderately bulky resists.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Fire Tera Type Hydreigon Tera Blast (Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ground Tera Type Garchomp in Sun: 220-259 (120.2 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Fire Tera Type Hydreigon Tera Blast (Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-H in Sun: 99-117 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Fire Tera Type Hydreigon Tera Blast (Fire) vs. 220 HP / 172 Def Cresselia in Sun: 157-187 (70.4 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Palafin - 100/160/97/106/87/100 (Total: 650) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero
As far as we know, the only thing Palafin needs to hit the above stat spread is to hit the field, switch out, and come back in at somepoint. Lead Palafin, Flip Turn or hard switch out, then bring it back after a slow pivot or KO to clean up. If Roaring Moon has solid balanced stats, Palafin's are something else. Acceptable bulk, similar to Roaring Moon, mid tier Speed, and absolutely ridiculous Attack. Now needing to switch out is somewhat exploitable. If an opponent takes aggressive moves in the early game, taking advantage of the weak Flip Turn or switch turn, even a strong Pokemon in the end game might not be able to make up the deficit. Still, its power is undeniable and coverage is strong.



252 Atk Life Orb Wishiwashi-School Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Corviknight: 105-125 (51.2 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Figy Berry recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Wishiwashi-School Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 270-322 (147.5 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Wishiwashi-School Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Rotom-W: 95-112 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

Chien-Pao - 80/120/80/90/65/135 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ice - Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin
Chi-Yu - 55/80/80/135/120/100 (Total: 570) - Dark/Fire - Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin
No calcs here because I don't know if these abilities are stat drops or static field effects, and if its the latter the question becomes "how much does it debuff?" Regardless of the level, I see these both as prominate early meta threats. They might be significantly more frail than the first two I discussed, but their debuffs helps not only themselves, but also their partners (though watch out for the reduced partner defense!). Chien-Pao has STAB priority with Ice Shard/Sucker Punch, while Chi-Yu threatens STAB spread with Heat Wave/Snarl.


Pivot Moves
Game Freak went HARD with pivot moves this generation. That is exciting after a generation with only one or two good pivots (you know the ones). I think in general, pivots increase the skill cap of the game, as players get access to plays that dynamically change the state of battle. They also encourage switching by decreasing the opportunity cost of wasting a turn to switch. Let's see what we got:

Priority Parting Shot
Both Grimmsnarl and Grafaiai get access to Prankster and Parting Shot. Off the bat this seems like ridiculous support; drop an opponents stats before they can even move, soften the blow for whatever is coming in, and enjoy your positioning against a weaker opponent next turn. I definitely think these will see a lot of play, but there is a fair amount of counterplay here as well. Dark-types (of which there are 3 in the above section), Psychic terrain, priority blocking abilities, the new Clear Amulet item, new Pokemon with Clear Body and other status blocking abilities, new Defiant Pokemon. All these punish spamming Prankster Parting Shot, and will certainly rise with Grimmsnarl and Grafaiai.

Shed Tail
We have two Shed Tail users: the fast Cyclizer (base 121 Speed) and the slow Orthworm (base 65 Speed). Both have healing, Cyclizer through Regenerator and Orthworm through Earth Eater (absorbs Ground-type moves for HP). Both have a great niche: Cyclizer to bring something in safely without taking damage itself, and Orthworm to tank a hit and bring in another Pokemon with an intact Substitute. This safe switching can give teams with frailer Pokemon options to change positioning without taking direct hits.

U-turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn
All these moves got even more users, including many Paradox Pokemon. Nothing really new here, just expect these moves to return on Assualt Vest and Choice sets while they were absent on many Dmax meta sets.

Chilling Reception
Now this is a weird one. A move that sets Snowstorm and switches out. As far as we know now, its exclusive to Slowking and Slowking-G. This could be an interesting tech to clear weather, and manuaver an Ice-type into battle to take advantage of its increased Defense and Blizzard spam. There are some good Ice-types this generation, maybe with the buff and the option to Tera to a better defensive type will make them viable.

Dark Horse Picks
Okay maybe its a little early to be calling things "underrated." But here are some things I think we could surprise us in a top cut appearance:

Brute Bonnet - 111/127/99/79/99/55 (Total: 570) - Grass/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Okay the typing is much worse than regular Amoonguss. Weakness to Fairy, Fighting, 4x to Bug, and lack of Regenerator hurts its logevity. However it offers something Amoonguss does not: offensive presence. Its not limited to Sporing and waiting around for opponents to wake up. A 127 Attack stat is good on its own, and it can be paired with Torkoal on Trick Room teams easily to get that extra boost.

Iron Bundle - 56/80/114/124/60/136 (Total: 570) - Ice/Water - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
With a great Speed and Icy Wind, it can act as a budget Regieleki. If you actually get Quark Drive active, it can even surpass Regieleki in terms of Speed (though this seems difficult). It can pivot with Flip Turn, has acceptable Defense that actually becomes bulky with a Snowstorm boost. Strong enough Special Attack to spam Blizzard. Its got plenty of tools, we'll see if there are builds that it can shine on.

Dondozo - 150/100/115/65/65/35 (Total: 530) - Water/Water - Unaware/Oblivious/Water Veil

How it works. Silly gimmick or the next Coalossal? +2 to all stats, Oblivious to guard against Intimidate drops, and can boost its Attack more with an 80BP attack, but it has to fight 2v1 until it faints. In the wrong situation, it can become setup bait, unable to do anything while an opponent positions an endgame. In the right situation, it can use its effective base 121 Speed and good movepool to pick up a couple KOs while sponging hits.
 
i really hope we find out an answer soon on how exactly the paradox abilities interact with the weather / terrain / item b/c whether its a passive lasting buff (i.e choice item) vs a consumable stat raise as well as if its a 1.2/1.3/1.5x boost really matters.

p-misdreavus seems like the biggest offender considering its an unfakeoutable 135 spatk / 135 speed behemoth with almost unresisted neutral coverage, & a 0 drawbacks spread move. throw on some specs and the ability to tera and you get a truly ridiculous attacker in sun. but if the buff isnt 1.5x or if the item is consumable, it makes it (at least slightly) more manageable

besides that, here are some cool things i saw that ill definitely want to try once the ladder is up and running:
cetitan gets belly drum and ice shard??? it probably wont be awesome due to the fact that every mon can become a steel type and arcanine will probably be the best intim user, but it might have a niche w/ rly good bulk & atk, thick fat and the ability to tera (ground or water seems best but dont sleep on ghost)
the grass tentacool seems pretty neat w/ spore and rage powder. its ability is kinda wacky (i assume it just makes you go last in your priority bracket? otherwise why rage powder if it makes you go last rofl) but having the ground typing is kinda cool. regular amoong will still be better than this one and the p-amoong tho

speaking of rage powder, the pepper mon gets it AND moody. it will probably be bad b/c its bulk is non-existent but itll be funny nonetheless. also i might be wrong here but with jumpluff getting access to tailwind, i think its the first mon to have both redirection and tailwind/tr?? it also gets sleep powder and encore so it could be a neat little option.
maushold is super neat imo, it has friend guard follow me with all the support moves you could ever want (helping hand, encore, u-turn, etc). i believe its also the first redirector with access to feint which seems like a fun little niche for it. its stats are pretty bad but i think theres still potential for it to be useful on the right comps. also side note, it (and most normal types) should probably run terablast as its primary attacking move even if you dont tera since it lets you /kinda/ ignore intimidate and youll have a stab if you do decide to tera for w/e reason.
farigiraf will probably be one of the go-to trick room guys since mental herb + armor tail does a rly good job of ensuring setup (barring being outright ko'd or flinched by rock slide or para'd or smth). its especially useful since once tr goes up, it also prevents fake out cycling to waste tr turns, and has a stab spread move and helping hand to boot. ironically though, its probably going to be one of the best ANTI tr mons as well because it has an unfakeoutable imprison tr and has a good ability just for regular teams, lots of fun mind games with that one lmao.
gholdengo has aegislash typing, ok bulk (87/95/91 is fine) cant be statused and has nasty plot. its almost definitely gonna see some success

tatsugiri by itself is an interesting option, water/dragon with 120 spatk and nasty plot. it also had access to muddy water as a spread move and a real lack of fairies to hinder it. its also the only new storm drain user.

revavroom is probably the best shift gear user since klinklang, might see some usage considering it has a rly good ability (filter) and good attack (119)
wattrell seems good (125 speed, 105 spatk, good typing, competitive ) as an anti intimidator with volt switch, altho gf did their part against intim already with the clear body item and making all the new intimidators probably bad (give the dark dog parting shot PLEASE)

grafaiai has prankster encore which could be a cool niche, but otherwise seems like a worse grimmsnarl

f-delibird is the fastest mon in the format and has access to icy wind / flip turn / good stab coverage. seems like a prime candidate for the covert cloak, especially with electroweb being all but snapped away.

f-hariyama is super fat, hits super hard, has fake out and can pivot out with volt switch now?? this guy seems dangerous, especially on tr comps
also please for the love of god game freak, make the pawmi revival move not work in pvp battles :tymp:
 

Ace Emerald

Cyclic, lunar, metamorphosing
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i really hope we find out an answer soon on how exactly the paradox abilities interact with the weather / terrain / item b/c whether its a passive lasting buff (i.e choice item) vs a consumable stat raise as well as if its a 1.2/1.3/1.5x boost really matters.
I asked about this in the mechanic leak thread, Jibaku says it's a passive buff, not a stat increase. It activates and deactivates with the field condition. Booster Energy gets consumed if it activates, no word on how long it lasts in that case. No word yet on boost level.
 
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