CAP 30 - Part 11 - Moveset Discussion

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Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
name: Substitute + Acid Armor
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Acid Armor
move 3: Body Press
move 4: Roost / Sludge Bomb
ability: Stamina
item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Black Sludge
evs: 252 HP / 148 SpD / 108 Spe
nature: Calm

Very similar route to snake's set but with Substitute thrown into the mix. We've seen Melmetal run a similar set to this, and I think cap30b's typing is interesting here in that it offers a lot of opportunities to get behind a Substitute and begin boosting. Foes like Landorus-T, Jumbao, and Arghonaut all are pretty free fodder here. The last moveslot is a bit interesting here. Originally, I was going to just do Roost there, but I think Black Sludge + Sludge Bomb as an alternative could work. As boosts are accumulated, the need to get behind Substitute again decreases because it becomes harder to break. Dropping a recovery move entirely would definitely hurt your early- and mid-game usefulness, but I think you can get away with doing so depending on your team's structure. I also really like Substitute giving us a shield against Trick Tapu Fini.

edit: evs btw are to outrun Heatran, but you could probably go with less investment; no one really runs uninvested Heatran unless it's a Sassy nature
 
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quziel

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Minor Point, but I think we should entertain Cosmic Power on 30b. Similar to Amnesia, it is a method of boosting Special Defense, but it is nowhere near as potent on that side, while also boosting Physical Defense, which while useful for us, is made somewhat less effective due to the presence of Stamina on our CAP.

I disagree generally with Earth Power on 30b, simply because I think forcing Body Press in order to break Heatran is somewhat cool.

Flamethrower and Heat Wave seem near identical power here, and Heat Wave fits flavor, so like, why not go with Heat Wave.

Acid Armor is cool, but honestly I would expect Skarmory to broadly outclass us in that role due to having more that it can do with its time.
 

Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
Acid Armor is cool, but honestly I would expect Skarmory to broadly outclass us in that role due to having more that it can do with its time.
Skarmory doesn't really run Iron Defense as a designated sweeper, though; rather, you run Iron Defense for the insurance against some physical wallbreakers/sweepers. I don't think we should be comparing it to cap30b for that reason.
 

Da Pizza Man

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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-88
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-91

I've changed my mind about Amnesia. It's way too easy to use the Special Defense boosts it offers in conjuction with Stamina to just generate an insane amount of defensive boosts that pretty much make you impossible to break and free to set up on pretty much anything in the tier (The fact that in game 2, I was able to use Slowbro's Future Sight, a move that would normally just cripple 30b, as a way to get an extra defense boost needed to combat Weavile is a perfect example of this). In both games I started setting up relatively early, and managed to either only fail to sweep because of hax (If Hurricane hit Urshifu then Zetalz would have lost on the spot) or just straight up win 6-0 (I disagree with kj that his team was illprepared against CAP 30b. Slowbro and Zapdos were pretty big threats to it and Weavile would be as well if I wasn't able to get the Stamina boosts in time. I should not have been able to plow through his team like I did).
 
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I'll start by immediately approving our STAB options in Hurricane and Sludge Bomb. Both have shown up in multiple sets and seems like very safe calls. I'll also be blacklisting Calm Mind, as I agree with the sentiment that immediate boosting of SpA and SpD at the same time stacked with Stamina procs is a dangerous combination.

Name: Bulky Wincon
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Hurricane
Move 3: Body Press/Flamethrower
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Nature: Modest
Name: SpDef Nasty Plot
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Hurricane
Move 4: Heat Wave/Earth Power
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
Here we have two slightly different takes on a Nasty Plot sweeper, one opting for more power with SpA investment, and one opting for more bulk with SpD investment. Given 30b's natural bulk and ability to (relatively) passively gain more, it's turned into a pretty good base for a setup sweeper, and I think Nasty Plot serves well as a boost to 30b's attacking power without making it too overwhelming to take down. However, discussion around SpD boosting alongside this means I will hold off on approving this for now. Between SpD boosting and Nasty Plot, I am currently more inclined to approve Nasty Plot.
I am not quite ready to make a decision on Heat Wave/Flamethrower and Earth Power. Our initial assessment in the beginning of the thread was that most types of coverage wouldn't be absolutely necessary, but it seems that opinions of Body Press's efficacy have gone down since then, bringing these moves to the forefront as alternatives to hit Steel types. I definitely want to see more discussion regarding these.
Name: Double Dance
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Nasty Plot
Move 3: Amnesia
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Def
Nature: Calm
Amnesia combined with Nasty Plot is definitely a higher opportunity cost compared to just Calm Mind by itself, but there is still potential to snowball out of control alongside Stamina boosts. To bring in another move that was suggested but not part of a moveset, Cosmic Power does not boost SpD as fast, but instead brings its own Defense boosts to make 30b harder to break on both sides, whereas an opponent could at least play around an Amnesia booster by minimizing Stamina activations until they can land a strong physical hit.
Name: Acid Armor + Body Press
Move 1: Acid Armor
Move 2: Body Press
Move 3: Sludge Bomb (/ Mystical Fire?)
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Calm
name: Substitute + Acid Armor
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Acid Armor
move 3: Body Press
move 4: Roost / Sludge Bomb
ability: Stamina
item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Black Sludge
evs: 252 HP / 148 SpD / 108 Spe
nature: Calm
These two sets both look to build on our access to Body Press and natural Defense stacking in Stamina by adding Acid Armor on top of it. I'm fine with the move by itself, as it fits in with all of the Defense boosting this Pokemon already does and gets Body Press to a useful point much faster, but with the uncertainty surrounding SpD boosting, I'd like to hold off on approving this.
Mystical Fire shows up in snake_rattler's set, but I don't really have any strong opinions on it. It's weaker than the proposed Heat Wave/Flamethrower, and at the same time the SpA drop, though weaker than SpD boosting, is a bit awkward. I would like to see more opinions on this, both on its own and as an alternative to any Fire coverage we get.
Name: DualDef Stall
Move 1: Toxic/Roost
Move 2: Body Press/Roost
Move 3: Amnesia
Move 4: Will-O-Wisp/Substitute/Roost/Haze
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
To begin with, this set isn't really a setup sweeper set, as its goal is stall out the opponent and passively build up Stamina boosts to get Body Press's damage up. Will-O-Wisp in combination with Stamina makes me hesitate, as this can really ramp up the difficulty of breaking 30b from the physical side. Haze is sort of interesting, but I'm not sure it will be run when Toxapex exists as a Poison-type that is also one of the best (and only) Hazers in the meta. I will need more justification for both of these.

To summarize:
  • Approved: Hurricane, Sludge Bomb
  • Want more discussion (in rough order from "most likely to be approved" to "least likely to be approved"): Nasty Plot, Acid Armor, Heat Wave/Flamethrower, Earth Power, Mystical Fire, Will-O-Wisp, Haze, Cosmic Power, Amnesia
  • Blacklisted: Calm Mind
In addition to getting more discussion on all the moves I listed, I want to bring back the subject of Ice coverage, as it has gone unsubmitted so far. It was deemed mostly just a bonus, rather than anything necessary, at the beginning of the thread, but I wanted to see if opinions have changed since then.

I will also now take this opportunity to open set submissions for the other discussed archetypes (defensive pivot, wall, and tank). I will give approximately 48-72 hours for discussion before I make my next round of approvals.
 
Will-O-Wisp in combination with Stamina makes me hesitate, as this can really ramp up the difficulty of breaking 30b from the physical side. Haze is sort of interesting, but I'm not sure it will be run when Toxapex exists as a Poison-type that is also one of the best (and only) Hazers in the meta. I will need more justification for both of these.
1st, i eliminated haze from the set xD
2nd, will o wisp is for steel types because they are inmune to toxic, over all, corviknight, i putted body press to counter heatran, that counters both moves also
3rd, its a LITTLE, because you really need the amnesia boost, but, it just, set-up, not set up sweeper xD
 

Brambane

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Name: 3 Attacks Spell Book
Move 1: Roost
Move 2: Sludge Bomb / Hurricane
Move 3: Mystical Fire/ Body Press
Move 4: Thunder / Hurricane / Scald
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Nature: Modest

Nothing too fancy here. 118 Special Attack is fairly meaty and lends itself nicely to a three attacks tank. Sludge Bomb and Hurricane for STABS. Mystical Fire has good synergy with Stamina, although I could see Heat Wave here as well. Body Press would be more specific for hitting Heatran and Blissey. Thunder hammers Toxapex, Tapu Fini (if you are running Hurricane), Arghonaut (if you are running Sludge Bomb), and Corviknight. Scald is an option I am dubious about, but learning from Chromera I can see the appeal of being able to fish for burns and chip Heatran and Lando-T quicker.
 

Da Pizza Man

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Fire Coverage:

After seeing how Body Press has been fairly underwhelming in practice, I've changed my mind and I'm now perfectly okay with this.

Ground Coverage:

This on the other hand I'm still against, albeit not to the same extent I was before. Like I mentioned in my previous post on Page 1, it just messes too much with our Checks/Counters list (Dealing with pretty much every Steel that isn't :Skarmory: or :Corviknight:, Electric-Types, and :Toxapex: all by themselves are kinda concerning to me, but doing it all in the same move slot sets off a pretty big red flag). I also really don't like how it turns some of our already quite niche options (Body Press and Sludge Bomb) into things that are just completely worthless, but that's more of a personal gripe I have rather than something I think should be considered legitimately concerning.

Haze:

I think Gaboswampert left this on his moveset on accident (Me and Amamama were talking about it earlier with him on Discord and he said he was going to remove it), but since its here might as well discuss it I guess. This move is trash, garbage, basura, and a bunch of other words for trash that I can't think of right now. Not only does :Toxapex: outperform 30b in using Haze in pretty much every way (Apart from I guess Swords Dance :Garchomp:), but it conflicts heavily with Stamina, which just kills of any potential defensive use it could have on a defensive moveset.
 

Zetalz

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Want more discussion (in rough order from "most likely to be approved" to "least likely to be approved"): Nasty Plot, Acid Armor, Heat Wave/Flamethrower, Earth Power, Mystical Fire, Will-O-Wisp, Haze, Cosmic Power, Amnesia
On Set-Up
I mentioned it before but I'm pretty confident now that set-up sets are only a problem if they have access to SpDef boosting. Nasty Plot feels very comfortable to play with or against when the threat of an Amnesia or Cosmic Power dropping to make 30b virtually untouchable isn't hanging over your head. Acid Armor is also really cool, one of the few ways I could see 30b actually utilizing Body Press at this point, would be a shame to lose that due to the threat SpDef boosting imposes. With that said I'd like to push for Nasty Plot & Acid Armor to be approved and the SpDef boosting options to be blacklisted.

On Coverage
Coverage has definitely felt a little awkward for 30b but not massively so. Of the options subbed so far the only one I could say maybe being a little much is Mystical Fire, but I'll go into that more below.

Earth Power is my own sub so I am definitely biased but I believe it won't break 30b as some might think. EP is without question a strong tool for 30b, one that would have us possibly consider limiting other coverage options but to be perfectly frank I think 30b is currently in a less satisfactory state than 30i and needs that little bit extra strength to be set. The concerns of how it affects the checks list is understandable but they are guidelines at the end of the day (not to mention how there are significant interactions that it does not break on it's own like :corviknight: :skarmory: and albeit more niche :zapdos:). With that said I could see problems arising from how it interacts with Fire coverage and/or Nasty Plot, but that feels unlikely to me since Nasty Plot sets will be pretty much always be restricted to 2 attacks and dropping hurricane feels mucho malo. Again, biased as fuck lol so take my thoughts with a grain of salt but I'd like to see Earth Power approved.

Of the Fire moves proposed Heat Wave/Flamethrower are pretty no-brainers. They feel fine giving 30b less hassle from a handful of steels. Mystical Fire feels kinda questionable as I said before but it doesn't feel particularly strong. It does poopoo damage and it's interaction with shoring up 30b's SpDef is far more restrained than the set-up moves. All of these are fine to approve imo.

Ice Beam
feels pretty lame to be completely honest, you don't need it to beat things like :landorus-therian: consistently with just flying stab. It's not offensive but adding it now kinda feels like a Stomping Tantrum :astrolotl: situation, basically just giving it something for when a future mon drops (:gliscor: he's coming). Leave Ice Beam off.

Was going to comment on the other misc. stuff like Haze, Wisp or Scald that got brought up as I was typing this, post is getting long as is and I don't feel strongly about any of them other than Haze bad, use :toxapex: instead.
 
First of all, I’d like to speak out against Amnesia and Cosmic Power. SpD boosting, while it might not be specifically broken, seems to be very unfun to play against. Cosmic Power may perhaps be even dumber than Amnesia since you simultaneously start being able to tank super-effective hits on the physical side and boost your weaker defense stat. Blacklist all Special Defense boosting.

Acid Armor
, on the other hand, is very much a tech option considering we have Stamina as is, but since it’s only Defense boosting I don’t see the harm in enabling Acid Armor + Body Press sets. As far as an “extra” move goes it’s at least doing something with the ability in terms of piling Defense. Approve Acid Armor.

Regarding coverage options, Fire coverage seems to be extremely wise to grant regardless of what else we decide. It lets us have a way around Steels not named Heatran, which I feel will be crucial for 30b’s viability. I don’t have a major preference to which move (I sorta prefer Flamethrower cause I hate missing but either works) but regardless I see no reason not to approve Fire coverage. Yeah okay change of heart. If we don’t give Earth Power obviously approve it. If we give EP then we need to think about whether having both would be a good idea. Not sure myself honestly.

As for Earth Power, I’m honestly torn. On the one hand, it’s a much more efficient coverage move than Fire, hitting Steels other than Corv/Skarm, as well as Electric types. Most crucially, it hits fellow Poison-types like Toxapex. It hitting Pex and its general efficiency are the major sticking points with it. Frankly, I feel that giving 30b Earth Power will give it a general power boost which will help it better stand out in the metagame, and I’m therefore in favor of approving Earth Power, but I totally get why people are hesitant.

edit: I think after reading snake’s new post that Earth Power would be better than Fire coverage and we might wanna avoid having both at the same time. It’s all very fluid tho.

edit edit: Zetalz Deep State forever
 
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snake

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Our initial assessment in the beginning of the thread was that most types of coverage wouldn't be absolutely necessary, but it seems that opinions of Body Press's efficacy have gone down since then, bringing these moves to the forefront as alternatives to hit Steel types. I definitely want to see more discussion regarding these.
Name: Where we are now
Move 1: Knock Off / Nasty Plot
Move 2: Hurricane
Move 3: Flamethrower
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe
Nature: Calm

If I had to come up with a "standard" CAP30b set with the tools we're projected to give it / tools we've given CAP30i, this is what I came up with, However, when I finished this set, I couldn't help but think about how we're proposing a lot of the same moves/coverage that Tornadus-T very commonly uses. I know that CAP30b and Tornadus-T have different statlines and abilities, but CAP30b is forced to run Roost due to lack of Regenerator, is much more vulnerable to Stealth Rock once knocked (again due to lack of Regenerator, and is much slower than Tornadus-T. Yes, CAP30b is bulkier and has the power of Stamina, but I'm unsure if that's enough for CAP30b to have a clear niche over Tornadus-T.

Name: Zetalz Deep State
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Nasty Plot
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe
Nature: Calm

Zetalz's suggestion of Earth Power would definitely allow CAP30b to differentiate itself from Tornadus-T, and Hurricane and Earth Power form really great coverage together. I could very clearly see myself choosing CAP30b to a team over Tornadus-T. Knock Off, Stealth Rock, and Nasty Plot are great options to add for its third slot, providing some kind of support or offense to a team. (EVs outspeed Arghonaut and dump in Special Attack.)

That being said, imo it's either Fire-type coverage OR Ground-type coverage. I don't think that a Hurricane / Earth Power / Flamethrower / Roost set is the healthiest set to have running around. Choosing Earth Power over Flamethrower would also shift around checks and counters so that CAP30b can't bust past the entire meta. In any case, I'm hoping that this sparks discussion on how CAP30b doesn't sit completely in Tornadus-T's shadow.
 

Brambane

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Name: Zetalz Slow State
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Nasty Plot
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 72 SpA / 188 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 5 Spe

This is the set that snake posted above me, but with radically different EVs. This spread hits the sweet spot between being slower than every Corviknight and faster than the standard Toxapex. As such, you set up Nasty Plot and Corviknight can never safely Roost against you. 188 SpA improves the Toxapex rolls so you can almost always 2HKO it with +2 EP into unboosted EP. It also helps a fair bit with the rolls vs PPads Melm (and Protect Lefties SpD Melm to a lesser extent.) This is somewhat gratuitous since defensive Corvi is literally set-up fodder for this mon and +6 Hurricane will blow right past it. Denying Corvi Roost while only at +2 is situationally useful and I don't think most of the other reasonable Speed benchmarks matter except Melmetal and MAYBE some Clefable?

I actually don't really mind giving 30b Fire + Ground coverage, since NP + Ground coverage can beat almost all the same shit, minus Equlibra and lol Cawmodore. The difference being without NP, 30b probably isn't breaking through the likes of Hippowdon, Toxapex, and Clefable (Hippo does nothing back but w/e.) You can smack Scizor, Equlibra, and Ferrothorn around unboosted ig, so maybe if your team is ultra weak to Libra for some reason there ya go.
 
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-88
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-91

I've changed my mind about Amnesia. It's way too easy to use the Special Defense boosts it offers in conjuction with Stamina to just generate an insane amount of defensive boosts that pretty much make you impossible to break and free to set up on pretty much anything in the tier (The fact that in game 2, I was able to use Slowbro's Future Sight, a move that would normally just cripple 30b, as a way to get an extra defense boost needed to combat Weavile is a perfect example of this). In both games I started setting up relatively early, and managed to either only fail to sweep because of hax (If Hurricane hit Urshifu then Zetalz would have lost on the spot) or just straight up win 6-0 (I disagree with kj that his team was illprepared against CAP 30b. Slowbro and Zapdos were pretty big threats to it and Weavile would be as well if I wasn't able to get the Stamina boosts in time. I should not have been able to plow through his team like I did).
These test replays provide valuable insight. Have you also tested any Body Press sets? While it was one of the selling points of choosing Endurance as the ability, it doesn't seem to actually pop up that often in the movesets discussed in this thread.
 

Da Pizza Man

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These test replays provide valuable insight. Have you also tested any Body Press sets? While it was one of the selling points of choosing Endurance as the ability, it doesn't seem to actually pop up that often in the movesets discussed in this thread.
It really just boils down to Body Press being quite underwhelming in practice.

30b is in a weird spot where its typing sort of puts it in a spot where it wants to be taking a lot of Special Attacks, and combined with the fact that Stamina gives us a way to get our Defense to fairly high levels anyways, most of us have found spreads that invest in Special Defense to be the most optimal way of building 30b. This in turn creates an issue where Body Press is fairly weak and unreliable before we are able to get a few Stamina boosts up, and we would just be better off using Fire/Ground coverage as a more reliable way to get over Steel-Types instead of trying to reinvent the wheel by using Body Press. I still think Body Press could be pretty good on sets with Acid Armor, and even without it could have a niche in being able to hit Heatran (Assuming we don't go with Ground coverage that is), but for the most part it's just not worth it.
 
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Interesting. I guess that's a lesson learned from CAP 30 quite early then: Stamina is not enough to carry Body Press optimization; a STAB and/or more base def would have been needed ?
But in the end I guess it's not that big a deal, since the aim was to optimize Stamina first and make use of Body Press as a byproduct, not the other way around. That's why I suppose removing Fire/Ground coverage to shoehorn ourselves into using Body Press would be counterproductive ?
 
At this point I am more interested in Earth Power over Fire coverage as it helps to set it apart from the host of flying types running heatwave, that fulfill similar tanky roles.
I am also not entirely opposed to fire and ground in conjunction, as dropping Nasty Plot or utility to run both fire and ground moves is a big trade off (for example uninvested I boosted heatwave still does not manage to break corviknight).
I think having both would be great for three attacks sets as both flying, ground and fire and Poison, Ground and Fire are incredibly potent Coverage, that is hard to switch into.

I really don’t like Special defense boosting. Remove it.

Now for a new set proposal.

Most of the sets have banked on SpD investment because 30bs typing is more geared towards dealing with a bunch of special attackers and because it closes a hole in its defenses, which set up sets need.

But I think this set has merit:

Name: Physically defensive Wall/Pivot
Move 1: Will-O-Wisp
Move 2: Body Press/Hurricane
Move 3: Hurricane/Sludge Bomb/U-turn/Knock Off/Stealth Rock
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature

What if Landorus and Corviknight had a child? You’d get Gliscor. Now What if you throw in a bit of Torn DNA as well?
You get CAP 30b.
All of the above are excellent defensive pivots, that are able to check a host of physical (or special attackers, thanks to their excellent typing and stats.
CAP30bs Physical bulk is excellent and while I agree, that for offensive sets a mixed bulky approach is probably better, I believe, that CAP30b can be an excellent physical wall and pivot.
Stamina paired with its physical bulk enables it to avoid 2hkos from any physical attacker not named Zeraora and Urshifu R.
60 EVs are put into special defense to avoid Heatran 2hkoing with Magma Storm and makes its defensive matchup into Tapu fini a bit clearer.
The speed tier is great to always pivot slower than Corviknight if Uturn is on the set (as you can always underspeed corvi with adjusted ev and Ivs) and chunk it hard if it dares to roost on a body press.

Will-o-wisp is the main attraction of the set, as it disables physical attackers even further and punishes steel and poison type switch ins witth constant chip.
Knock Off is great at crippling these switch ins even more, while stealth rock provides another form of Team Support and is good for role Compression.

While I think body press is solid on a physically invested build, running either Hurricane alone or Cane or sludge Bomb in conjunction with body press is a viable option, which makes the build a bit less utility focused and leans harder into a tank role.

The only issue I see atm with this set, is that 30b is a Flying type that doesn’t Check Cawmodore (unless it tries to set up on 30b) which might make teamslots an issue.
 
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G-Luke

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Special Defense boosting, particularly Amnesia, has been largely underwhelming from replays I have seen. I genuinely believe this is just a case of heavy bias towards CAP 30b on Teambuilder + the general unexpectedness of Amnesia on the test ladder. Running Amnesia comes at a significant opportunity cost of dropping more impactful utility or useful coverage.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-88
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-91

I've changed my mind about Amnesia. It's way too easy to use the Special Defense boosts it offers in conjuction with Stamina to just generate an insane amount of defensive boosts that pretty much make you impossible to break and free to set up on pretty much anything in the tier (The fact that in game 2, I was able to use Slowbro's Future Sight, a move that would normally just cripple 30b, as a way to get an extra defense boost needed to combat Weavile is a perfect example of this). In both games I started setting up relatively early, and managed to either only fail to sweep because of hax (If Hurricane hit Urshifu then Zetalz would have lost on the spot) or just straight up win 6-0 (I disagree with kj that his team was illprepared against CAP 30b. Slowbro and Zapdos were pretty big threats to it and Weavile would be as well if I wasn't able to get the Stamina boosts in time. I should not have been able to plow through his team like I did).
No offense, but if we are to have a serious discussion on whether or not we should be allowing Amnesia, I'd like to see more than one replay of it putting in major work versus an opposing team. First replay I do not count, as it was filled with questionable plays on both parts and was filled to the brim with Hax that heavily favored the Amnesia user. They also still lost. The second set also had a combination of unfortunate hax (Triple Axel hitting once sucks) and in my opinion, the rather poor matchup the team had versus SpD CAP 30b. While Weavile could directly threaten it, the Pokémon could not switch in, and Zapdos being the sole reasonable switch in could have just have easily been pressured by a Sludge Bomb as Amnesia boosts. CAP 30b finally just sets up on all the other team mates - it's the definition of a poor matchup.

Let's not be hasty in banning something that is not more overtly potent until we have more data on how strong it is and how it performs versus a wide variety of teamstyles.

As for my thoughts on EP v Fire Coverage, I am firmly a Fire coverage supporter. I really like the relationship that Heatran has with 30b, and I think gramting it Earth Power just shits on what may otherwise be a situational, yet still smart counterplay to our new CAP. It also incentivizes Body Press sets to see the light, because realistically, Heatran is our main target with that move. Otherwise the move is a dunderhead option outside of dedicated Acid Armor sets, which ofc have their iwn problrms. Tl;dr Up with the Flamethrower, Down with the Earth Power.
 

dex

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I want to weigh in on the discussion of fire vs. ground coverage and talk about Body Press

Body Press is not a good move. It's super weak and fighting coverage in the face of access to ground coverage is not good outside of hitting Blissey. Assuming NP is allowed, EP is a million times better than Body Press. EP also lets CAP30 switch into Heatran, giving it an actual defined niche before playtesting.

Fire coverage is helpful for Corviknight, but the fact of the matter is that Corvi ain't doin too much back, and I'd rather keep Corvi alive as a mon that can pivot on 30b as this activates Stamina and actually gives 30b some use out of its ability as a U-turn deterrent.

EP is good, Fire Coverage is ok but not that great, stop relying on Body Press for calcs, it is a bad move.
 
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LucarioOfLegends

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Quick post No thoughts head empty.

Amnesia/Cosmic Power: They're either going to be really disgusting or really underwhelming depending on how it pans out. Erring on the side of caution and just blacklisting might be the smarter choice here.

Fire-type coverage vs Earth Power: I really don't know, I think both have mons that we can't hit if we choose one over the other and it's really dependent on what mons we want to keep as stops (Heatran if Fire coverage unless you invest real hard into Body Press, or Corviknight if Earth Power). Fire coverage seems generally safer but realistically I have no preference. Maybe a slight lean in Earth Power considering a waning trust in Body Press.

Haze: Why is this even being discussed it removes our boosts lmao. If you want an anti-setup just run Pex.

Mystical Fire: I dont really see how this is much of an option when basically any Fire-coverage would be consistently more useful. Its weaker than all other options and its SpA drop is occasionally helpful at best and just useless at work. Really not seeing any scenario where it actually gets approved.

Everything else I feel pretty alright about.
 

quziel

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Obvious caveat that test games mean little beyond getting a feel.

Amnesia feels like its on a totally different level from Cosmic Power. Guaranteeing that we are out of 2HKO range for every relevant electric type is huge compared to still being vulnerable to some bad rolls. I do think CPower has some worry, but being stuck with one attacking move really sucks when its gonna be Hurricane/Air Slash, so I think the weaker Spdef boosting option is fine to include, I just don't want to have to deal with the stronger of the two. Note Amnesia can avoid a 2HKO from Tapu Koko's Tbolt (aka +0 into +2), Cosmic Power cannot.

+1:
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat in Electric Terrain: 158-188 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 148-174 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 136-162 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2:
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat in Electric Terrain: 120-144 (32 - 38.5%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 109-133 (29.1 - 35.5%) -- 11.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 102-121 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


Mystical Fire is similar to, and weaker than, Cosmic Power. While it does let you still technically take on threats like Koko/Pult, you can't really Mfire up before they're in as reliably (aka they have to hard switch in on it). The decrease in power compared to Heat Wave / Flamethrower is also not irrelevant. This is fine to approve honestly, and is a cool tech set. If we want to preserve Melm as a one time Twave answer, I think we could even just go for it over Flame.

0 SpA Crobat Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 190-224 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Crobat Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 158-188 (65.5 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Crobat Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 154-182 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Crobat Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 128-152 (32 - 38%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Crobat Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 79-93 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Crobat Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 94-111 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Crobat Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 104 SpD Melmetal: 184-218 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Crobat Mystical Fire vs. 40 HP / 104 SpD Melmetal: 154-182 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Epower lets us easily 2hko Heatran and Magnezone, while KOing pex through Haze a lot of the time. Scorching Sands is a lower power level move that gives Heatran a solid chance to avoid a 2hko. Could be worth exploring if we want a lower power level move. That said it gives 0 damage into Pex.

0 SpA Crobat Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 180-212 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Crobat Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 228-272 (59 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Crobat Scorching Sands vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 256-304 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Crobat Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 328-388 (116.3 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Crobat Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Crobat Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 86-102 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO


Please approve Earth Power and Mystical Fire. Deny Flamethrower/Heat Wave. This means our defining coverage is Hurricane + Epower, a combo that has already been proven to excel, while we have the ability to tech into the Zapdos/Corv matchup with Mystical Fire.
 
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Rabia

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I'm "fine" enough with seeing Amnesia blacklisted in the sense it removes annoying cheese potential from cap30b; however, I agree with G-Luke that the replays shown are poor demonstrations of it being overbearing. Double-boosting sets (as in, Amnesia + Nasty Plot) will be reliant on several turns going well for the user and an incredibly favorable matchup to get past the slew of wallbreakers/other setup sweepers that can pressure you too quickly for the boosts to really accrue. I think we should not blacklist Amnesia at the time because the evidence in favor of doing so is very poor.
 

Da Pizza Man

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Special Defense boosting, particularly Amnesia, has been largely underwhelming from replays I have seen. I genuinely believe this is just a case of heavy bias towards CAP 30b on Teambuilder + the general unexpectedness of Amnesia on the test ladder. Running Amnesia comes at a significant opportunity cost of dropping more impactful utility or useful coverage.

No offense, but if we are to have a serious discussion on whether or not we should be allowing Amnesia, I'd like to see more than one replay of it putting in major work versus an opposing team. First replay I do not count, as it was filled with questionable plays on both parts and was filled to the brim with Hax that heavily favored the Amnesia user. They also still lost. The second set also had a combination of unfortunate hax (Triple Axel hitting once sucks) and in my opinion, the rather poor matchup the team had versus SpD CAP 30b. While Weavile could directly threaten it, the Pokémon could not switch in, and Zapdos being the sole reasonable switch in could have just have easily been pressured by a Sludge Bomb as Amnesia boosts. CAP 30b finally just sets up on all the other team mates - it's the definition of a poor matchup.

Let's not be hasty in banning something that is not more overtly potent until we have more data on how strong it is and how it performs versus a wide variety of teamstyles.

As for my thoughts on EP v Fire Coverage, I am firmly a Fire coverage supporter. I really like the relationship that Heatran has with 30b, and I think gramting it Earth Power just shits on what may otherwise be a situational, yet still smart counterplay to our new CAP. It also incentivizes Body Press sets to see the light, because realistically, Heatran is our main target with that move. Otherwise the move is a dunderhead option outside of dedicated Acid Armor sets, which ofc have their iwn problrms. Tl;dr Up with the Flamethrower, Down with the Earth Power.
I was originally going to respond to this in more depth, but I scrapped it because I felt like I came across too much like an asshole in it, so I will just keep it kinda short.

While I agree to an extent on the first replay, you are heavily overstating how much the Triple Axel miss actually mattered in the second.

+2 252+ Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. +2 248 HP / 8 Def Crobat: 242-288 (64.8 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This might seem like a lot, but remember the next time Weavile attacks, its going to need to get past us at +5, and the above calc is going to shrink tremendously if without more set-up which just gives an extra turn (Or two if the roll was actually low enough).

As another point I didn't really mention earlier, you have to consider just how much of a match-up fish that Amnesia turns 30b into, which I think goes without saying is incredibly unhealthy and not something we should consider having on our mon. It's not like we really even lose out on anything by going with banning Amnesia either.
 
The last 21 hours have been rather chaotic in terms of discussion from where I'm standing, so I'm just going to quickly go over some new moves and cement a firmer stance on others.

Earth Power / Heat Wave / Mystical Fire
Personally, I feel that having both Earth Power and Heat Wave isn't going to cause severe problems, as one will mostly likely be forced to drop Nasty Plot to accommodate both moves while retaining Hurricane and Roost. Moreover, Heat Wave needs some investment and a Modest nature to actually always 2HKO Corviknight. More damningly, it simply does not enough damage to the current Toxapex set with Earth Power to truly frighten it.

52+ SpA CAP30b Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 188-222 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA CAP30b Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Toxapex: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If I had to only pick one though, I'd go for Earth Power, simply for letting us pressure Toxapex (after a Nasty Plot) and Heatran. Regardless of our coverage, Corviknight cannot touch 30b; against Nasty Plot, it simply cannot afford to squat on 30b and instead has to pivot out, giving 30b a Stamina boost.

If people do fear Heat Wave being too strong combined with Earth Power (which I personally disagree with considering the above) but want Fire coverage regardless, then Earth Power + Mystical Fire strikes me as a solid compromise, as Mystical Fire doesn't have the capability of OHKOing Corviknight outright, and is also helpful against the likes of Zapdos without having the possibility of being absurdly obnoxious compared to Amnesia and Cosmic Power. I personally think approving all three moves is perfectly balanced, as Heat Wave is a better move for the likes of Corviknight, while Mystical Fire is a more niche option for Pokemon like Zapdos. Therefore, I present to you....

Moveset Submission

Name: Zetalz Deep State Deluxe
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Nasty Plot / Mystical Fire / Earth Power
Move 3: Earth Power / Heat Wave [Mystical Fire]
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
  • Hurricane is the primary choice for a STAB option, as it packs a major wallop, especially after a Nasty Plot. Sludge Bomb can theoretically work here considering its similarly strong synergy with the coverage moves, but it's definitely a more niche choice (and three slots with two moves looks bad) so I chose to omit it from here.
  • Nasty Plot is obviously a monumental power boost, allowing 30b to act as more of a tank than a simple wall as it collects Stamina boosts.
    • If setup is not your cup of tea though, Mystical Fire is handy against the likes of Zapdos, allowing you to accumulate Stamina boosts while you simply have to pray not to be paralyzed. It also pairs quite well as neutral coverage with either STAB option.
  • Earth Power is the most efficient coverage move 30b can run, hitting Pokemon that would otherwise hard wall it, such as Heatran and Magnezone, as well as making Pokemon like Zeraora and Astrolotl think twice about switching into 30b.
    • Heat Wave trades the Heatran matchup for the likes of Ferrothorn and Corviknight, primarily after a Nasty Plot boost. Fire coverage also goes very well with Hurricane, though obviously not as much as Earth Power. [Mystical Fire is only in this slot for if Heat Wave gets blacklisted. Otherwise remove it.]
  • Roost is for recovery purposes. Pretty straightforward.
  • EVs and Calm nature are to maximize special bulk, but maxing SpA with a Modest nature is also an option.
This is a bread and butter set for 30b, allowing it to use a combination of strong neutral coverage and access to boosting (if it wants to use it) to gather Stamina boosts and threaten the opposing team.

Now I'm going to talk about moves that haven't necessarily been beaten to death.

Will-o-Wisp
Tbh I feel this is a bit overkill? By no means is it broken on 30b, and one could have argued it for 30i as a way to negate Leftovers from stuff like Corviknight, but 30 already has access to Stealth Rock and Knock Off, so that seems unneeded. 30b is likely to receive Acid Armor any day now, and as far as shoring up physical Defense goes outside of Stamina, I think it's all we need. At least Acid Armor enables Body Press to be useful. 30 already has Toxic and Thunder Wave, and I really don't think we need to add another status on top. Blacklist Will-o-Wisp.

Scorching Sands

It's a Ground-type move, which I do like, but it barely does anything to Toxapex at +0 compared to Toxapex sets that aren't 204+ SpD, let alone sets that are, and it doesn't 2HKO Heatran at neutral unless rocks are up, which is pretty pathetic for a Ground-type move.

0 SpA CAP30b Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 204 SpD Toxapex: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA CAP30b Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 180-212 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

To make matters worse, its 30% chance to burn makes it simultaneously underwhelming (for being a Ground-type move) and overkill (with its ability to inflict burn, which I just discussed as to why we do not need to be able to burn). Blacklist Scorching Sands.

Welp, that's it for now. Goodnight. can't wait for everything to be lit ablaze again in a day when someone proposes Jungle Healing or something
 

spoo

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Whether or not Amnesia is straight "broken," it's hard for me to view it as anything but an utterly unnecessary option. It's not going to be nearly as consistent as something like NP, and that's not a point in its favor––Amnesia feels like a cheese option first and foremost, and I am very okay about forgoing it given we already have a good kit of tools to work with at this point. Cosmic Power also just seems kind of bad, and while the immediate cheese factor is (probably) less than Amnesia, I guess I also just don't see why it's something we really need. Between the two I prefer Cosmic Power, but I feel that both are unnecessary. Tldr matchup fish options aren't super productive for us.

I also wanna advocate for EP + Mystical Fire. While I don't see a huge problem giving out both EP + Heat Wave, it could be kind of annoying having NP 30b pick and choose its counters, which is not something I really want to deal with. Mystical Fire is a weaker alternative to Heat Wave that preserves a greater degree of counterplay and also compliments Stamina quite well. I've come around to favoring EP > Heat Wave as it's a higher power option that still preserves stuff like Corviknight and Zapdos as checks, and helps set us apart from other Pokemon like NP Tornadus that can currently do pretty much everything we can.

Re: Ice Beam since this seems to have been forgotten, I'm like 60/40 in favor of giving it out but the more I think about it the more it also feels a little unnecessary. It would probably be more useful without NP as another way to cement matchup against Ground-types, but NP + Cane already sorta beats them, so like, the move might just not get used.
 

snake

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That being said, imo it's either Fire-type coverage OR Ground-type coverage. I don't think that a Hurricane / Earth Power / Flamethrower / Roost set is the healthiest set to have running around.
When I first made this assertion, the idea of Mystical Fire on CAP30b was still very new, being a questionable slash on the Acid Armor + Body Press set. I still maintain that Earth Power + Flamethrower/Heat Wave on CAP30b would be somewhat rough to build/play against; however, Earth Power + Mystical Fire is an excellent combination for us to leverage, as Mystical Fire's lower base power makes a huge difference. I also get that Stamina + Body Press was a combination that we wanted to leverage, but we chose Stamina after Poison / Flying. I don’t think Body Press is necessary to Stamina’s success, and we shouldnt force it if we don’t want to. Thus, I want to put my support behind Earth Power + Mystical Fire.

Thus, I'd like to edit my previous sets:

Name: Zetalz Deep State (Nasty Plot + 2 Attacks)
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Hurricane
Move 3: Earth Power / Mystical Fire
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpD / 92 Spe (or increase speed to outspeed Heatran)
Nature: Calm

Name: Zetalz Utility State (2 Attacks + Utility)
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Earth Power / Mystical Fire
Move 3: Knock Off / Stealth Rock
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe (or increase speed to outspeed Heatran)
Nature: Modest

And then add this set that covers for 3 attacks + Roost. I think Sludge Bomb is a worthwhile option over Mystical Fire due to its power and Poison chance. This set would sort of function like a bulkier Nidoking - still hard to switch into but not immediately forced to switch out.

Name: 3 Attacks + Roost
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Mystical Fire / Sludge Bomb
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe
Nature: Modest

Re: Ice Beam since this seems to have been forgotten, I'm like 60/40 in favor of giving it out but the more I think about it the more it also feels a little unnecessary. It would probably be more useful without NP as another way to cement matchup against Ground-types, but NP + Cane already sorta beats them, so like, the move might just not get used.
At this point, I don't think Ice Beam is necessary. Hurricane, Sludge Bomb, Earth Power, and Mystical Fire are all great options that CAP30b can utilize, alongside Stealth Rock, Knock Off, and Nasty Plot. Alongside the Acid Armor + Body Press set, I think CAP30b has a solid set of options to set itself apart from other options in the metagame so far, and I'm really excited to see this Pokemon used.
 
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