AG National Dex AG

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Hello everyone that follows me just to see what weird set I'll post next.

Today I've got for you something special. It's a Groudon, that effortlessly beats Zygarde and Mega Rayquaza. Yes, you heard that right, effortlessly.

Behold:
+0 252 Atk Groudon Max Hailstorm (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 400-472 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+0
252 Atk Groudon Max Hailstorm (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Strong Winds: 316-372 (90 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
If you decide to opt for an adamant nature, these are guaranteed OHKOs regardless of Stealth Rock!

Does it require Life Orb? No! Why have your sweep ended by Life Orb recoil kill when you can just do this:
Groudon @ Pomeg Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance
- Natural Gift
- Aerial Ace

You can even use it once after you dynamax! What's not to like?

Does it get the same KOes Life Orb does?
+2 252 Atk Groudon Max Hailstorm vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 404-476 (90.9 - 107.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Groudon Max Hailstorm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 656-774 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Groudon Max Hailstorm vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 127-150 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 53.5% chance to 3HKO let's just ignore this!

Give it a try!!!!
 
Hello everyone that follows me just to see what weird set I'll post next.

Today I've got for you something special. It's a Groudon, that effortlessly beats Zygarde and Mega Rayquaza. Yes, you heard that right, effortlessly.
Good ol' nerd200 made another innovation :O Seems a good idea, definitely a good choice if Arceus-Water and Ho-Oh see drops in usage. Both are a little hard to handle, since without Life Orb you can't OHKO Arceus-Water after a SD, and Ho-Oh takes an advantage of lack of Stone Edge.

+2 252 Atk Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 325-384 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Dynamax Arceus-Water: 325-384 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Sun and the SpD boost from Max Quake allows you to take at least a few number of Max Geysers, but you would probably come in the range to get KOed by Extreme Speed.
0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Max Geyser vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Groudon in Sun: 140-168 (20.4 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Max Geyser vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Groudon in Rain: 320-380 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

Probably with a few SpD boosts and the sun can allow you to survive, but I guess Arceus-Water is a bit less worrisome than Ho-Oh, especially now that Arceus-Water has seen a drop in usage, and Ho-Oh's usage is a bit high (more than that of Arceus-Ground).
Capture.PNG
Honestly since most Groudon carry a rock-type move, the player may think twice before sending it. But, if they manage to know about Max Hailstorm, they would guess the rest of the moves. Precipice Blades obviously, then Aerial Ace and Swords Dance or why would you Dynamax Groudon. If they sent Ho-Oh pray to Arceus that Sacred Fire doesn't burn you if they don't Dynamax. If it burns, shame on Arceus.
Still, this set looks fun and good to use against Arceus-Ground and Zygarde teams.
 

The_Powerful_Entity

Banned deucer.
National Dex Anything Goes is a format where there are so many pokémon to look out for when building a team.
When building a team, there are no "must-have" pokémon except for ditto, which can often be a late-game sweeper. However, if you are new to this format, using tyranitar is extremely beneficial.
Calyrex-Shadow, one of the most used and viable pokémon in the meta, excels in its ability to churn through teams once stealth rock has been set up. Tyranitar, with the help of its ally, the sandstorm, can tank hits and hit back with pursuit, preventing Calyrex-Shadow from escaping. Dynamax Yveltal without Max Knuckle is completely walled by tyranitar as well Another useful method is to exploit tyranitar's sand stream by switching into a sashed pokémon to finish it off.

Tyranitar @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 200 HP / 28 Atk / 120 Def / 160 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Rock Tomb
- Foul Play
- Rest

A burned tyranitar is a useless tyranitar. Rest is also very helpful when removing status conditions such as poison or paralysis. It heals your tyranitar to full health and cures it. Safety goggles works very consistently against smeargle or other sleep-inducing pokémon. As soon as I put this tyranitar on my team, I don't have to worry about losing to a spore team. It will take a great deal of stress off your back.

Pursuit and foul play are used for two different purposes:
Finishing off a weakened foe (such as ho-oh) and punishing high-attack pokémon that boost their stats (such as rayquaza-mega)
 
Why did about 17% of dark Arceus have serious nature in this statistics file? Was it a real strategy or a mistake?
Serious:200/0/0/0/104/204
No idea but uh, Nat Dex AG ladder is full of people who don't know a lot of common strategies tbh. 38% of Cal-S and 31% of Mega Ray being Focus Sash and <1% of Nec-DM being HDB should sum that up.
Marshadow
| Items
| Focus Sash 86.059%
Yep, Ladder Rule 1 still applies.
Someone correct me if this is an actual spread plz, and tell me why it isn't Calm?
National Dex Anything Goes is a format where there are so many pokémon to look out for when building a team.
When building a team, there are no "must-have" pokémon except for ditto, which can often be a late-game sweeper. However, if you are new to this format, using tyranitar is extremely beneficial.
Calyrex-Shadow, one of the most used and viable pokémon in the meta, excels in its ability to churn through teams once stealth rock has been set up. Tyranitar, with the help of its ally, the sandstorm, can tank hits and hit back with pursuit, preventing Calyrex-Shadow from escaping. Dynamax Yveltal without Max Knuckle is completely walled by tyranitar as well Another useful method is to exploit tyranitar's sand stream by switching into a sashed pokémon to finish it off.

Tyranitar @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 200 HP / 28 Atk / 120 Def / 160 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Rock Tomb
- Foul Play
- Rest

A burned tyranitar is a useless tyranitar. Rest is also very helpful when removing status conditions such as poison or paralysis. It heals your tyranitar to full health and cures it. Safety goggles works very consistently against smeargle or other sleep-inducing pokémon. As soon as I put this tyranitar on my team, I don't have to worry about losing to a spore team. It will take a great deal of stress off your back.

Pursuit and foul play are used for two different purposes:
Finishing off a weakened foe (such as ho-oh) and punishing high-attack pokémon that boost their stats (such as rayquaza-mega)
Hello and welcome to Nat Dex AG! Thanks for your set, however I'd like to point out a few things. This Tyranitar set is primarily used with Leftovers or Tyranitarite, and also usually with max SpD as well. Leftovers makes it have to Rest less often by adding passive recovery, which means it provides less free turns to the opponent. Tyranitarite gives it absurd special bulk, letting it take boosted (Z-)Pollen Puff from Cal-S better, as well as more damage output. Safety Goggles is not such a great choice for Tyranitar, due to it then being easier to wear down for a Calyrex clean lategame. If you want an anti-cheese measure, I suggest Safety Goggles Zygod due to its absurd bulk, higher Atk for breaking Subs and access to Haze+Glare.

In addition, in general I would not recommend new players use Tyranitar as a go-to pick for two reasons.
1. Sandstorm. Sandstorm complicates trying to utilise Necrozma-Dusk Mane, who is basically mandatory to check Xern and Zac-C, as it means Nec-DM only heals 33% from Moonlight. Since Ttar tends to be Xern and Zac food, this mandates a second check to them such as (as you mentioned) Ditto.
2. Baton Pass. Calyrex-S's most dangerous set is the Nasty Plot Baton Pass set, which cannot be Pursuit trapped. Since Cal-S can just Baton Pass out of Ttar, the rest of your team has to be prepared for threats like a +4 Xern, a +2 Eternatus (Ttar does a reasonably decent job here in the event it is not chipped, though due to being a Cal-S check it probably is) or a +2 (Primal) Kyogre. SpD Yveltal, by contrast, can cripple incoming threats with Snarl or Knock Off, or even attempt a U-turn to regain momentum. While Ditto can revenge kill these threats, this implies losing a mon to do so.
I hope you can now see the problems with using Ttar and how constraining it is on your own builder. As a B+ ranked mon it is still extremely good, being able to Pursuit trap non-BP Cal-S and check LO Yveltal, but in general I consider SpD Yveltal to be by far the easiest Dark-type to use in the current metagame due to its flexibility and larger margin for error against Cal-S, as well as making better use of Dynamax should it need to defensively do so.
 

The_Powerful_Entity

Banned deucer.
Smeargle should be put in the tier list. I'm not saying it is a viable pokémon whatsoever, but the fact that it has so many moves means there are tons of smeargle sets available. There are a few sets I created, and each of them have a special function.

Smeargle @ Custap Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Destiny Bond
- Endure
- Magic Coat
- Glare

This smeargle excels at taking down boosted sweepers down with it. However, it cannot take down dynamaxed pokémon with destiny bond. However, any dynamaxed pokémon also do not have a substitute, so use glare on it by all means.

Smeargle @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Substitute
- Shell Smash
- Power Trip

This smeargle set takes advantage of slow pokémon such as ho-oh by sporing it. You cannot switch into a smeargle unless your pokémon has safety goggles or is a grass type. (Or if it has insomnia.) Often, this smeargle can change a 5-0 into a 1-0 by sporing anything in sight with its boosted speed, repeatedly shell smashing, and spamming the now 560 power move on the opponent.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Defend Order

Skarmory @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Rock Tomb
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes

These two pokémon work together as a set. Rock tomb lowers the opponent's speed, allowing smeargle to spore on the next turn. If the opponent does have a priority move, focus sash will ensure that it will survive at least one hit. By the way, if you think I copied this off of someone, I didn't. Also, this set has always existed, and just because someone used it first doesn't mean I can't display it now.

Of course, there are some sticky web and stealth rock variants, but they just don't work. Anyway, that's why smeargle should be promoted to C because of its various movesets.
 

The_Powerful_Entity

Banned deucer.
I think some people do not understand the meaning of winning. In national dex anything goes, it's about taking advantage of everything. Every switch-in your opponent makes gives you a free turn. Don't waste that turn attacking or going for a super effective move. Instead, either switch in something that counters whatever the opponent will most likely switch in, or use a move that will do some damage to the incoming attacker. In the case of calyrex-shadow, if your opponent has a tyranitar, don't go on the attack. It is extremely likely that you'll get pursuit trapped and ultimately lose your calyrex-shadow in the process. Switch in primal groudon and threaten it with a ground move, but instead use stealth rock when something else is switched in. In the case of zacian-crowned, if you know the opponent will switch in a necrozma-dusk-mane, switch in something like ho-oh. The idea of this tactic is to gain free attacks. You will inevitably have to take some damage at one point, but forcing switch-ins and exploiting them is very beneficial. This all goes back to how necrozma-dusk-mane is trash. If the opponent switches in a yveltal or a calyrex-shadow, you have to switch the necrozma out. Meanwhile, the opponent can use substitute, nasty plot, switch into something else, and even just attack without restriction. Tyranitar, on the other hand, threatens all pokémon with over 160 base attack stats by spamming foul play over and over. This prevents zacian-crowned from safely using a substitute against ditto or smeargle from baton passing its attack boosts. These days, more and more teams are becoming weak against kyogre. Sure, mega rayquaza does deal massive damage against kyogre, and so does groudon. However, once those two pokémon are fainted, scarf or primal kyogre dominates the rest of the game. It becomes almost impossible to switch in. Due to all of these factors, I think a few adjustments to the viability rankings are necessary.
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Tyranitar B+ to A-
Kyogre B+ to A+
Groudon-Primal B- to A
Yveltal S to S-
 

Amberr

Banned deucer.
Smeargle should be put in the tier list. I'm not saying it is a viable pokémon whatsoever, but the fact that it has so many moves means there are tons of smeargle sets available. There are a few sets I created, and each of them have a special function.

Smeargle @ Custap Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Destiny Bond
- Endure
- Magic Coat
- Glare

This smeargle excels at taking down boosted sweepers down with it. However, it cannot take down dynamaxed pokémon with destiny bond. However, any dynamaxed pokémon also do not have a substitute, so use glare on it by all means.

Smeargle @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Substitute
- Shell Smash
- Power Trip

This smeargle set takes advantage of slow pokémon such as ho-oh by sporing it. You cannot switch into a smeargle unless your pokémon has safety goggles or is a grass type. (Or if it has insomnia.) Often, this smeargle can change a 5-0 into a 1-0 by sporing anything in sight with its boosted speed, repeatedly shell smashing, and spamming the now 560 power move on the opponent.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Defend Order

Skarmory @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Rock Tomb
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes

These two pokémon work together as a set. Rock tomb lowers the opponent's speed, allowing smeargle to spore on the next turn. If the opponent does have a priority move, focus sash will ensure that it will survive at least one hit. By the way, if you think I copied this off of someone, I didn't. Also, this set has always existed, and just because someone used it first doesn't mean I can't display it now.

Of course, there are some sticky web and stealth rock variants, but they just don't work. Anyway, that's why smeargle should be promoted to C because of its various movesets.
Hey there! Thanks for the submissions to this thread!
If you don't mind, i'd like to make a few corrections to your posts.
First, Smeargle is already b+ on the viability rankings and I'm assuming you wanted it moved up to c, but its already in b+. Just wanted to clear that up with you.
I think some people do not understand the meaning of winning. In national dex anything goes, it's about taking advantage of everything. Every switch-in your opponent makes gives you a free turn. Don't waste that turn attacking or going for a super effective move. Instead, either switch in something that counters whatever the opponent will most likely switch in, or use a move that will do some damage to the incoming attacker. In the case of calyrex-shadow, if your opponent has a tyranitar, don't go on the attack. It is extremely likely that you'll get pursuit trapped and ultimately lose your calyrex-shadow in the process. Switch in primal groudon and threaten it with a ground move, but instead use stealth rock when something else is switched in. In the case of zacian-crowned, if you know the opponent will switch in a necrozma-dusk-mane, switch in something like ho-oh. The idea of this tactic is to gain free attacks. You will inevitably have to take some damage at one point, but forcing switch-ins and exploiting them is very beneficial. This all goes back to how necrozma-dusk-mane is trash. If the opponent switches in a yveltal or a calyrex-shadow, you have to switch the necrozma out. Meanwhile, the opponent can use substitute, nasty plot, switch into something else, and even just attack without restriction. Tyranitar, on the other hand, threatens all pokémon with over 160 base attack stats by spamming foul play over and over. This prevents zacian-crowned from safely using a substitute against ditto or smeargle from baton passing its attack boosts. These days, more and more teams are becoming weak against kyogre. Sure, mega rayquaza does deal massive damage against kyogre, and so does groudon. However, once those two pokémon are fainted, scarf or primal kyogre dominates the rest of the game. It becomes almost impossible to switch in. Due to all of these factors, I think a few adjustments to the viability rankings are necessary.
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Tyranitar B+ to A-
Kyogre B+ to A+
Groudon-Primal B- to A
Yveltal S to S-
A few things on this post too, Once again thank you for the submission.
To start, Switching isn't always a free turn as it us usually to switch to a check/counter. Second, Calyrex Shadow may take advantage of that by setting up a nasty plot as pursuit doesn't hit against baton pass. Also, There is a strategy known as double switching which is very common at higher elo. That strategy almost completely removes the point of the post you just made there, not saying that to be rude just correcting you. Also, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane has been one of the premier attackers and walls since its release in usum. Just because it gets hit by some attacks doesn't automatically invalidate any usefulness it has. Also,there is many pokemon which can switch in on Kyogre/Primal Kyogre including Primal Groudon, Eternatus, ect. Anyways, Necrozma dusk mane is able to stay where it is on the vr. Tyranitar Has no reason to rise up from what I can see in the current metagame, if anything it may drop to B. Kyogre will likely not rise in Natdex AG as there is many switchins to it, Groudon primal Has no reason to rise past B+ in the current meta either. Yveltal is easily one of the strongest attackers because of the popularity of quickpass, it also can wall some variants of calyrex shadow and several other special (and physical) attackers. Corrections aside thank you for spending your time to make submissions and contributions and good luck with your future endeavors.
*edit 1: Kyogre is already in A- teir so thats a thing
*edit 2: As requested i'm gonna explain how/why yveltal>ttar right now, Yveltal has reliable recovery, but needs to run boots to be a more effective wall. Also, Ttar gets crippled by status and dies to most physical attackers, it also only has 1, maybe 2 possible movesets. Meanwhile Yveltal benefits from its teammates if it gets a baton passed stat boost if you are running the dmax set. Yveltal has like 6 sets and even those can be mixed up to hit/wall different things. Also yveltal beats ttar with fblast lmao.
tldr; Praise Ygod
 
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I think Ray should be S and Zacian should be S- so they should be switched.

Zacian I think got a lot worse with the introduction of Calyrex. One big issue is that Ditto is now everywhere so you really have to imposter-proof Zacian. +2 Scarf Zacian on the other side is very scary. The other issue is that Rex itself now handles Zacian after a bit of chip.

As for Ray I think it's wrong to demote it, Ray does well with opposing Ditto, at least the Lonely LO set I use always KOs the opposing Ditto after the defense drop from Ascent/V-Create and SR damage. It's also true that Ray can't sweep as easily what with Arc-Normal and Marsh running around, but sweeping was never the main thing Ray was used for (indeed mix LO and lead sash DD to my knowledge have been the most popular sets), and the rise of Spdef support Arceus is a fantastic win for Ray. The drop in Zacian usage (and it has dropped a bit) and the decreased viability of Zacian I think also has been a boon for it.

Scarf Ray is also a bit more viable now what with Rex running around, though generally you're better off using Scarf Ditto.

On that note, I also think Ditto should jump to A+ or even S-. Ditto is good. Like, really really good. It does amazing things against Rex, Zacian, and even Xern and Yveltal. And also it's a great way to imposter-proof your own Calyrex (lol).

I also think that Dark Arc should jump to S-. It's a fantastic poke and a great Calyrex/Yveltal check. I run max HP max speed CM judgment recover refresh and it's so good, and also sweeps bulkier teams (people also run supportive spdef to fully check rex and tal). I'm not sure why Arc-Ground is up at S-, I think that belongs at A+ at best.

I am currently #1 on the ladder with a 2021 rating.

EDIT: I think Arc-Ground should drop to A+, the drop in Pdon usage is not fantastic for it, and my understanding was that one of its main draws was its ability to destroy Pdon which dropped in the VR (and NDM, which also dropped). It faces stiff competition from Yveltal as a Dynamaxer and I think it is not as good as Arceus-Dark when it comes to CM or support sets, because of the utility Arc-Dark provides with Calyrex as because the CM set does have trouble with Ho-Oh (not sure if Ho-Oh's usage really dropped, if anything I think it's gotten better with how it can check Rex and Yveltal without a Rock move). SD sets have to deal with the increased popularity of Marsh and Ditto.

EDIT-2: Ray can now run Scale Shot, which is nice for it, since it can outspeed Rex after a shot, which gives it again more viability and utility, and another way to get around the speed issue (it can also do Scarf or Espeed).

So my nominations I guess are:
Rayquaza-Mega S- -> S
Zacian S -> S-
Arceus-Dark A+ -> S-
Arceus-Ground S- -> A+
Ditto A -> S- (or at least to A+)
 
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Geysers

not round
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
VR Update!

Hello! The Natdex council decided that with the AG classic wrapping up, this would be a good time for a VR update. Before we get to the update proper, however, we've got three new council members! Myself, WSun1, and Kate have joined the team! We haven't figured out a practical way to vote on individual mons' placement within a rank, so stuff's alphabetized once again, whenever a mod has the time to update the OP.

Here's the slate!

Rises (courtesy of WSun1)
:arceus-ground: S- to S (Ground)
:arceus-steel: B to B+ (Steel)
:arceus-rock: B- to B (Rock)
:necrozma-ultra: B- to B
:excadrill: D to C
:skarmory: UR to D

:sm/arceus-ground:

As the new DLC expanded metagame has begun to settle down throughout the past 8 months, Arceus-Ground has once again proved itself to be one of the most threatening breakers and Dynamax sweepers the game has to offer. It is more threatening now than ever due to the falling off of Ho-Oh, a then omnipresent defogger and most reliable check to Calm Mind Arceus-Ground whose role has been replaced by the now omnipresent specially defensive Yveltal. The effectiveness of the Calm Mind set has not been hampered by the introduction of Calyrex-S as it easily muscles its way through this fragile threat by boosting and Dynamaxing. Moreover, the Swords Dance set is also as threatening as ever due to the mandatory presence of a specially defensive Yveltal which replaces what could have been a physically defensive pivot with a vulnerable target for Stone Edge. Arceus-Ground takes advantage of all of these recent metagame shifts productively to achieve the coveted ranking of S.

:sm/arceus-steel:

Arceus-Steel offers great role compression as a breaker capable of overwhelming threats such as Calyrex and Zacian-C, a switch-in to Rayquaza-Mega’s Dragon Ascent, and a general damage/status sponge. Dynamax enables Arceus-Steel to bolster its physical defense to unbreakable levels with Max Steelspike after it boosts its special attack and defense with Calm Mind, making it an extremely formidable breaker with access to recovery.

:sm/arceus-rock:

Arceus-Rock has been proving to be a reliable Rayquaza-Mega wall as more and more people gravitate to V-create over Earthquake to sufficiently threaten physically defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Additionally, it offers one’s team with another means of setting stealth rock which frees up a spot on defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane for something like Dragon Dance. As such, it has been bumped up from B- to B.

:ss/excadrill: :sm/necrozma-ultra:

These Pokémon have found niches on hyper offense teams as an entry-hazard setter and breaker, respectively. Excadrill distinguishes itself from other breakers as it has access to mold breakers and rapid spin which allows itself to set hazards through magic bounce and remove hazards for its team. Necrozma-Ultra shines as a self-improofing breaker on teams that do not require a defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane to counterplay the threatening Zacian-C. It has access to an excellent move pool and ability, stellar base stats, and is capable of outspeeding common threats to Hyper Offense teams in Zacian-C and Calyrex-S with Dragon Dance. Hyper Offense has only become more and more threatening as people have begun to shy away from building Ditto-centered bulky offense teams, which helps these two Pokémon rise in the viability rankings.

:ss/skarmory:
Skarmory has found itself a niche as an alternative to Celesteela, checking Necrozma-DM and some Arceus-Ground sets while spreading status and stacking Spikes. Its access to phazing in Whirlwind also helps it to deter setup attempts by Pokemon that could otherwise threaten it, making threats like Xerneas and Zekrom more manageable. Despite this, its weakness to the numerous special attackers in the tier and its corresponding inability to handle Calm Mind Arceus-Ground reliably make it a niche pick at best.

Drops
:calyrex-shadow: S+ to S
:arceus-dark: A+ to A
(Dark)
:ho-oh: A to A-
:arceus-fairy: A- to B+
(Fairy)
:ferrothorn: B+ to B
:gengar-mega: B+ to B
:tyranitar: B+ to B-
:tyranitar-mega: B to C
:groudon: B- to C
:lugia: B- to C
:mewtwo-mega-y: C to D
:diancie-mega: D to UR
:gliscor: D to UR

:ss/calyrex-shadow:
While Calyrex-S is still an incredibly threatening presence, we feel that it doesn't merit placement above the rest of the S rank. Calyrex-S suffers from the increased offensive presence in the meta, which can reduce its setup opportunities, with the threat of pursuit-trapping by Marshadow being especially significant.. Notably, Calyrex-S often loses to Calm Mind Arceus formes, which somewhat hampers its effectiveness. Regardless, Calyrex-S is still an incredibly dominant present in the current meta, and definitely deserves its S rank.

:ss/arceus-dark: :ss/tyranitar: :ss/tyranitar-mega:
Any Calyrex-S check not named Yveltal has been falling off lately, for good reason. All three of these Pokemon lose hard to Buginium Z Calyrex-S, and their inability to provide pivoting or punish setup as reliably as Yveltal hamstrings their viability. Mega Tyranitar, especially, is incredibly difficult to justify right now given that it takes a mega slot, and, as such is dropping to C. Despite its inability to check Calyrex-S as reliably as Yveltal, Arceus-Dark continutes to be a very solid Pokemon, running support, Perish-trapping, and Calm Mind sets with equal facility.

:ss/ho-oh:
Ho-Oh's still quite solid, but it dislikes the increased presence of Refresh support Arceus formes, which can reliably 1v1 it, and a general shift towards more offensive team structures on which it can struggle to find room. Additionally, the ability of Specially Defensive Yveltal to slot Defog reduces teams' need for Ho-Oh thanks to Yveltal's amazing role compression. This mon could definitely rise back to A if the meta becomes more favorable to it, however.

:ss/arceus-fairy:
Fairyceus is no longer the Yveltal check of choice, as it faces stiff competition from Arceus-Dark and Yveltal, both of which have the added benefit of compressing a Calyrex-S check as well. Fairyceus does, however, still retain some viability thanks to its ability to threaten Zygarde and run potentially threatening Calm Mind sets.

:ss/ferrothorn:
Ferrothorn is becoming increasingly difficult to fit on teams, as the meta shifts towards bulky offense that favors more offensive ways to handle Kyogre. Notably, Ferro faces stiff competition from Primal Groudon, which has numerous advantages such as soft-checking Zacian-C and being able to deter setup attempts through phazing. Ferrothorn also doesn't appreciate that Kyogre has been getting rarer, as it sees fewer and fewer opportunities to be useful.

:ss/gengar-mega: :ss/mewtwo-mega-y:
Offensive Pokemon weak to Calyrex-S and slower than it? Not in this meta! Both Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Gengar are checked by the same things that check Calyrex-S, significantly hurting their viability. While Mega Gengar retains some fringe utility as a balance breaker, Mega Mewtwo Y is virtually impossible to justify on any serious team, and I quite frankly don't know why it didn't drop to UR. Both Mega Gengar and Mega Mewtwo Y are easily revenge-killed by Calyrex-S, making them serious liabilities given that they give Calyrex-S a free setup turn every time it comes in.

:ss/groudon:
Another offensive mon that struggles to find any setup attempts in the current offense-heavy meta, Groudon is extremely difficult to fit on a team, and is severely hampered by the rising prominence of Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Water. There isn't a ton more to say here, so I'll move right along.

:ss/lugia: :ss/gliscor: :ss/diancie-mega:
Stall is extremely difficult to build effectively in the current meta, and these drops reflect that. Lugia gives setup turns to all manner of offensive Pokemon, ranging from Zacian-C to Calyrex-S to Arceus-Steel and struggles to find room on anything thanks to its extreme passivity. The same thing applies to the other two, neither of which has any real utility right now thanks to the absurdly centralizing power of Calyrex-S.
 

Hgssanta

Banned deucer.
Any Calyrex-S check not named Yveltal has been falling off lately, for good reason. All three of these Pokemon lose hard to Buginium Z Calyrex-S, and their inability to provide pivoting or punish setup as reliably as Yveltal hamstrings their viability. Mega Tyranitar, especially, is incredibly difficult to justify right now given that it takes a mega slot, and, as such is dropping to C. Despite its inability to check Calyrex-S as reliably as Yveltal, Arceus-Dark continutes to be a very solid Pokemon, running support, Perish-trapping, and Calm Mind sets with equal facility.
While I agree with the fact the Buginium Z Calyrex-S does infact fold Tyranitar and Arceus-Dark, It should be noted that the Dynmax versions of these Pokemon can infact live the hit, and Tyranitar and Arceus-Dark can both punish Baton Pass and setup. Tyranitar can run roar or snarl to mess with Sub NP calyrex and Arceus-Dark can also run snarl to punish any Substitutes. These two are preferred for their ability to soft check Yveltal as well as Calyrex-Shadow. Also I want to bring to your attention that Yveltal isnt the best Calyrex-Shadow check either, which is proved by the following calc:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Max Starfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 494-582 (108.5 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal folds to a much more common set that Buginium Z, and if the counterplay is to max, then Calyrex-Shadow can baton pass away the stat boosts to another teammate that Yveltal cannot at all threaten, like opposing Yveltal. Thus it wasted the Dynmax and can clean up the entire team later. If the Player's Yveltal can infact threaten the opponent's Yveltal that has been Baton Passed into, i.e. Its a special attacker variant with life orb, then let me present to you this calc:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Max Starfall vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dynamax Yveltal: 686-808 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
We can clearly see that a draining kiss Calyrex-Shadow, if played properly, is more than a match for Yveltal. Another obvious flaw being if Calyrex-Shadow is carrying trick, then Yveltal is much more adversely affected than Arceus-Dark, which isnt affected by trick, and Tyranitar which can pursuit trap the Calyrex-Shadow. Non-HDB Yveltal can easily be worn down with rocks, and even HDB Yveltal get horribly crippled by being locked into roost and losing their Stealth Rock Immunity.

I would like to go more into Arceus-Dark, as it is the Main focus of my post here, along with a few other things.

Arceus-Dark is an absolutely superb Pokemon that puts up an insane performance even in games where Calyrex-S and Yveltal are not present. It is possibly the best Perish Trapper, almost always forcing Zacian-Crowned in and forcing it to take 15-16% each time. It can smash Lugia if it attempts to whirlwind, and due to the recent fall in Ho-oh usage, it's even more difficult to deal with. For me the thing that pushes Arceus-Dark into A+, if not S, if the fact that you dont know what set you are facing. If its a perish trapped and you switched in chansey or Zacian-C then you are losing either an incredibly important Pokemon, or you are forcing Zacian to lose 15-16% of its HP, increased to about 20% with rocks. Almost nothing except Zygarde-Complete, Arceus-Fairy and Ho-oh can play the long game with this behemoth of a Pokemon. Even Xerneas gets worn down over time. This is just the PerishPool set, I am yet to go over the other things this Pokemon can do.

Lets move onto the Calm Mind set, which uses any Non-Nasty Plot or Choiced Calyrex-Shadow or even Yveltal as setup fodder to quickly steamroll teams. It is only stopped by Xerneas, Zacian-Crowned, Arceus-Fairy and Ho-oh, and only Ho-oh and Arceus-Fairy pack the reliable recovery to beat it in a longer game. Marshadow could be considered as a check, but it simply cannot switch in without risking immediate death. This set is an absolute game-ender that can put in work on a game to game basis, again, even if the opponent isn't packing Calyrex-Shadow or Yveltal. It can deal with even Ho-oh if it is using a Recover + Refresh set, thus making it's checks even slimmer. In my opinion this is one of the best Calm Mind Arceus sets and cements Arceus-Dark as once again an incredible Pokemon.

Now for the Third and Final set. Arceus-Dark is an extremely reliable defogger and can spread poison and sometimes even lure and burn its best check Zacian-Crowned, thus neutering the mutt for the rest of the game, which can be huge. It has a decent matchup versus the best stealth rock setters in Necrozma Dusk-Mane. Groudon-Primal and Arceus-Ground, it can hit the former with a super effective Judgement and the Latter with Earth Power or the Latter two with a crippling toxic. This is an excellent defogger that can keep the rocks off the field in longer games as well.

Finally, I would like to compare Arceus-Dark to Arceus-Ground, an S tier Pokemon that is also an Arceus Forme.
Arceus-Ground has utility in its ability to check Zacian-Crowned and Mega Rayquaza with defensive sets. This can be compared to Arceus-Dark's ability to check similarly metagame defining offensive threats in Yveltal and Calyrex-Shadow. Arceus-Ground can run an excellent Calm Mind set, threatening many Pokemon and checked by very few Pokemon. However, I would like to point out that due to Arceus-Ground's inability to hit Flying types with it's STAB, it is forced to run Ice Beam over Refresh, thus making it vulnerable to status. Arceus-Ground is definitely better than Arceus-Dark because of it's ability to run a swords dance set, although Arceus-Ground is not very effective at running a PerishPool set, because Pokemon like Arceus-Dark or Water can do the same thing much better due to their ability to deal with certain anti-trapping measures.

Based on the statements I have said above, I would like to propose the following changes:
Arceus-Dark - A- to A/A+/S Versatility in very viable sets and ability to wear down opponents in longer games
Tyranitar - B- to B/B+ Reliable Calyrex-Shadow and Yveltal check that can pursuit trap ditto and other Pokemon.
Calyrex-Shadow - S to S+ Can potentially beat every single one of it's checks, thus making it virtually counter-less.
 
I am a bit confused why Arc-Ground got to S if 3 people voted S, one voted S-, and one voted A+. Ray didn't jump to S even though 2 people voted S and 3 voted S-. The average of S and A+ is somehow higher than S-? S,S, and A+ average to something closer to S than to S-? If anything I'd expect S>S->>A+ so that S,S,S,S-,A+ < S,S,S-,S-,S- (which is what mray is).

It looks to me like Arc-Ground, Yveltal, Ray are all very very close to the border between S and S- and are a step below Rex and Zacian.

Wouldn't it make more sense to then put Rex and Zacian as S+, Ray, Yveltal, Arc-Ground as S, and NDM as S-? The current ratings give the impression that Arc-Ground and Yveltal are up there with Rex and Zacian and are a step above Mega Ray.
 

Geysers

not round
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I am a bit confused why Arc-Ground got to S if 3 people voted S, one voted S-, and one voted A+. Ray didn't jump to S even though 2 people voted S and 3 voted S-. The average of S and A+ is somehow higher than S-? S,S, and A+ average to something closer to S than to S-? If anything I'd expect S>S->>A+ so that S,S,S,S-,A+ < S,S,S-,S-,S- (which is what mray is).

It looks to me like Arc-Ground, Yveltal, Ray are all very very close to the border between S and S- and are a step below Rex and Zacian.

Wouldn't it make more sense to then put Rex and Zacian as S+, Ray, Yveltal, Arc-Ground as S, and NDM as S-? The current ratings give the impression that Arc-Ground and Yveltal are up there with Rex and Zacian and are a step above Mega Ray.
For groundceus, 3 people voted for S. This is a majority so it went up.
For Mega Ray, 3 people voted for S-. This is a majority so it stayed put.
We didn't do any fancy average things if there's a clear majority, as there was for those two mons.
Also yes, the rankings do reflect that we think, on average, that Arceus-Ground and Yveltal are more dominant presences than Mega Ray. If you think that this is wrong, you can write up a nomination post to change our minds.
 
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For groundceus, 3 people voted for S. This is a majority so it went up.
For Mega Ray, 3 people voted for S-. This is a majority so it stayed put.
We're didn't do any fancy average things if there's a clear majority, as there was for those two mons.
Also yes, the rankings do reflect that we think, on average, that Arceus-Ground and Yveltal are more dominant presences than Mega Ray. If you think that this is wrong, you can write up a nomination post to change our minds.
So the guy that voted A+ (lower than S-!) gets his vote completely ignored? Technically it should be S- because the average rating was around there.
 
To clarify, if a majority vote that pokemon X is Y rank, you immediately move the pokemon to Y rank? So if 3 people vote A and 2 vote C you still put it at A? That's a "clear majority". I am not sure if this is how the VR tends to work as a matter of principle?

2/5 people rated Ray above Arc Ground, 2/5 rated Arc Ground above Ray, and 1 rated them the same. So one could say - the majority voted that Ray should be ranked at least as high as Arc Ground, and as many people voted them lower.

You can also get a Condorcet paradox from this; the majority opinion on mon X vs mon Y might not be transitive. My personal pro-Ray biases (which I admit to) notwithstanding, I thought generally VR uses a mean not a median. Again the median is problematic because of things like Condorcet.
 

Geysers

not round
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
To clarify, if a majority vote that pokemon X is Y rank, you immediately move the pokemon to Y rank? So if 3 people vote A and 2 vote C you still put it at A? That's a "clear majority". I am not sure if this is how the VR tends to work as a matter of principle?
Yes, it is. This is how every VR system has worked on Smogon pretty much forever. What the majority of the council believe is where the mon ends up. That simple.
2/5 people rated Ray above Arc Ground, 2/5 rated Arc Ground above Ray, and 1 rated them the same. So one could say - the majority voted that Ray should be ranked at least as high as Arc Ground, and as many people voted them lower.
We're not voting on whether Mon A is better than Mon Y. We're voting on whether Mon A deserves to be in X rank. If we were voting specifically on whether Mon A is better than Mon B and then ranking them based off of that, this criticism would be valid. Given that we're not voting on A vs B, however, this criticism is completely off-base and doesn't make any sense.
You can also get a Condorcet paradox from this; the majority opinion on mon X vs mon Y might not be transitive. My personal pro-Ray biases (which I admit to) notwithstanding, I thought generally VR uses a mean not a median. Again the median is problematic because of things like Condorcet.
This... isn't how a Condorcet paradox works. We are not voting on whether Mon A is better than Mon B. We are voting on whether what rank Mon A should be in, and what rank Mon B should be in. Every Pokemon on the VR is handled in a vacuum, with no respect to how a given council member ranks a given Pokemon relative to others, which is how Smogon VRs have been run basically forever. If you've got a problem with it, go bug Chaos or try to get a badgeholder to make a PR thread or something. A Condorcet paradox arises in this context if, and only if, we were voting on the position of a given Pokemon relative to others, as opposed to its position in a vacuum. Please do a little bit of research next time.

Hopefully this explanation makes sense and will lead to an end to the pointless bickering about voting methodology.
:blobthumbsup:

tl;dr none of this holds any water because we're voting on each mon independently instead of where a given mon should be relative to others.
 
OK thanks for the clarification! I didn't how how Smogon VR worked in general (that it was by median and not mean), and now I know.

I know how a Condorcet paradox works, I was just saying that if the VR Council is some body whose opinions are derived from the majority opinion of its members, then the VR Council's preferences might be intransitive. You said "[the VR Council thinks] on average, that Arceus-Ground and Yveltal are more dominant presences than Mega Ray" which is why I made this comment about the Condorcet paradox. Clearly average means median and not mean from context. The council doesn't actually think that Arc-Ground is more dominant than M-Ray perse (2 in favor, 2 opposed, 1 abstention), but the median council person thinks Arc-Ground is S and the median council person thinks Ray is S-.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the clarifications.
 
Hey guys, just wanted a share a cool lead set I thought of.
Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 204 HP / 52 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast/Diamond Storm/Earth Power
- Misty Explosion/Explosion
- Encore/Toxic/Baton Pass/More coverage
Lead (Mega) Diancie has a very similar role to Excadrill: Preventing opposing hazards going up while getting Rocks down with some offensive presence to boot. However, Mega Diancie has a crucial edge over its Ground/Steel rival: It completely and totally shuts down every Smeargle and Deo-S set out there, bar only Baton Pass and Skill Swap. The bulk allows it to usually handle an opposing Caly-S lead provided it doesn't Mega:
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 246-291 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Never-Ending Nightmare (190 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 261-307 (89.3 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Worst-case scenario:you learn the opposing Calyrex's set is Modest Specs at the cost of a mon, or they burn their Z-move KOing your lead.
Best-case scenario:you Encore them into Sub or Nasty Plot.
It does have a bad lead matchup with Zacian-C, so be sure to lead with something else in that case. Some other possible lead matchups VS meta staples:
52 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 234-276 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Can only U-turn)
52 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 324-384 (82.4 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (It needs Steel Wing lol)
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 398-470 (136.3 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (You're faster and get Rocks up, if they use any other move just Encore them.)
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 278-330 (95.2 - 113%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Same unless they're near-max Speed, which usually implies an offensive set that shouldn't really be leading)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 247-291 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (fun calc lol)
52 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 320-378 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 588-696 (201.3 - 238.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Same as Pdon and Arc-Ground)
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Sludge Bomb vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 191-226 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Etern without SB does nothing to you and you get Rocks up either way while denying potential Tspikes)
Ditto-You can Mega, they can't.
224 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 222-264 (76 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You know the drill, Moonblast also has a favourable roll KO non-SpD versions pre-Power Construct)
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 230-270 (78.7 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You outspeed Adamant and Moonblast OHKOs. If you want to get Rocks up more badly than killing it, just don't Mega so you take less damage and learn its set)
So yeah, I think lead Diancie has a real niche on certain HO teams that hate Rocks going up against them. Any thoughts?
 
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