Announcement np: SS CAP Round 3: Nerfing Process - Heavy Metal [Equilibra Nerfed]

[Mx]

Hello everyone, while CAPPL is still wrapping up, the metagame council has decided is time to address Equilibra. We'd also like to announce that Atha and -Voltage- are officially joining the council!

Equilibra has been a top tier threat since its release in late USUM. Even after being nerfed once, it still remained as a dominant force through the rest of Gen 7. The jump to SS has proven to be very beneficial to Equilibra, because while it lost the ability to run Iapapa Berry due to the pinch berries nerf, the lack of Z-Moves and the generally lower power level mean that Equilibra is now much harder to break. Additionally, as the metagame developed, it great offensive prowess has also become increasingly clear and Doom Desire support has become more important than ever, with partners like Urshifu being almost unstoppable when combined with the delayed damage.

The offensive presence of Equilibra cannot be overstated, as its STABs moves are very challenging to switch in. Pokemon like Slowking are much more popular in CAP than in OU because of Equilibra's influence. However, due to the nature of Doom Desire, even dedicated counters like those can't always prevent Equilibra from putting the opponent into outright unwinnable positions, as many threats like Urshifu and Hydreigon become virtually unstoppable when backed up by Doom Desire. This puts a very heavy strain on all teams and many times requires the opponent to play very aggressively if they want to stand a chance.

Its bulk is another aspect that makes Equilibra very overwhelming. Even some very strong moves like Tomohawk's Heat Wave and Choice Band Syclant's Icicle Crash fail to 2HKO, which gives Equilibra plenty of opportunities to set up Doom Desire. Furthermore, the duality of its abilities leads to difficult scenarios for players, often resulting in 50/50s where the opponent has to appropriately guess the ability at the risk of losing a turn. When coupled with Doom Desire, having to guess between Levitate and Bulletproof can often sway the momentum of a match towards the Equilibra user's side in a single turn. This means that on certain Pokemon like Venusaur and on the mirror matchup, even when running a move for each for each ability you still need to scout carefully to be sure of which one to use. Due to the combination of these factors, the CAP metagame council believes that Equilibra is an unhealthy addition to the metagame and action needs to be taken against it.

Checks and Counters

• : Slowking is a very common answer to Equilibra, as its high special bulk means that it can take its attacks decently well and Scald pressures it decently. Despite that, Equilibra can still exert a lot of pressure with Doom Desire and an appropiate teammate like Hydreigon. On top of that, if Earth Power gets a SpD drop, Slowking can be forced out.
• : Both Rotom forms are popular checks but tend to be worn down quite easily and can be heavily pressured by a teammate, especially with Doom Desire support.
• : Both pink blobs can take any attack that Equilibra throws at them; however their passive nature means that Equilibra can set up Doom Desire for almost free and Pain Split can use them to regain health with ease.
• : Levitate sets with Aura Sphere can be a great check against an opposing Equilibra, but the fact that one of the best ways to stop Equilibra is using one yourself is a very unhealthy interaction that further centralizes the metagame around it.
• Residual damage: Due to its lack of reliable recovery, Equilibra can be slowly worn down through the game. However, thanks to a typing and Levitate, Equilibra is naturally resilient against it.

1. The CAP Metagame Council identifies a broken/unhealthy threat. Input from the metagame discussion thread, Discord, high-level tournament replays, etc. are ways the community can voice their concerns to the CAP Metagame council.

2. The CAP Metagame Council begins a thread. The OP, written by the CAP Metagame Council, summarizes why the Pokemon is broken. Metagame shifts, game mechanics changing, or OU bans can be potential points. The CAP Metagame council will also include a checks and counters list. Hard-counters to soft-checks, hazard damage, relative ability to switch-in, etc. should be considered. Keep in mind that with the broken Pokemon in the metagame, we can continue to understand why it is broken.

3. In the thread, the community discusses the simplest solution(s) to making the CAP not broken. Here, we can well-define a new list of checks and counters. Some solutions may be changing its ability to one that's similar but not as good, reducing its speed tier, removing some of its bulk or attack, or removing a certain move or two from its movepool. The community will play a huge role in identifying what solutions are available, but CAP Metagame Council will have the final say on what nerf is implemented. Keep in mind that the nerf(s) that is(are) implemented MUST preserve the identity of the CAP (i.e. Necturna uses Sketch, Pajantom uses its powerful trapping move, etc.).

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Rules for posting in this thread:

• Do not post one liners, nor uninformed posts.
• Do not hold discussion on other potential nerfing processes.
• Do not hold discussion on the nerfing process.
• You are required to make respectful posts.
• If you fail to follow these rules, your post will be deleted and you will be infracted.

This time we're aiming for the Nerfing Process to run for approximately 2 weeks.

 

[Reviloja753]

I’m just gonna stop by real quick to offer my thoughts. I feel that the primary issue with Equilibra is its extreme durability. It has a fantastic defensive typing, two immunity abilities that cover weaknesses that can screw teams over if they guess wrong, ludicrous bulk, and access to Pain Split. The fact it is so difficult to kill allows it to set up Doom Desire several times throughout a match, which lets its 133 Special Attack stat matter more than it arguably should. If Equilibra is able to punch a hole in a team with a Doom Desire that’s one issue, but the reason that its high power is so scary is that it is a constant threat throughout a match due to how it just refuses to die. As such, I feel the way to balance Equilibra is to make it easier to kill. First of all, I believe Equilibra should lose Pain Split. It does not need access to recovery of any kind outside of leftovers, and while Chansey and Blissey are still incredibly passive against it, Equilibra will at the very least no longer be able to use them as health packs. Secondly, Equilibra should lose one of Levitate or Bulletproof. Both abilities have their arguments for removal. Bulletproof is the one most people discuss about, and for good reason. It blocks Focus Blast from the likes of Alakazam and Kerfluffle, effectively eliminating its Fighting weakness outside of the likes of Urshifu. Levitate is perhaps even more impactful, not just removing the Ground weakness, but more importantly in this metagame letting it be immune to Spikes. Thanks to its typing, it has no worries about Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock. With Levitate, it actually can afford to run Leftovers in this Heavy-Duty Boots metagame, which is huge for its durability. Removing either ability takes much of the guesswork out of beating Equilibra. I do feel Equilibra losing Levitate would be a bigger nerf due to perhaps needing to run Heavy-Duty Boots to avoid Spikes damage. The last thing I will propose is a nerf to Equilibra’s bulk in some form. I don’t know enough to specifically propose stat changes of a specific value, especially when the possibility of reducing bulk stats may just lead to it investing less in Special Attack and having the inverse effect of our intentions, but I do feel that it needs its stats reduced in some fashion. With these changes, I am positive Equilibra can become truly balanced once and for all.

 

[Rabia]

So when looking at Equilibra, I think two things stand out the most to me: its cracked-ass stats and access to Levitate. The former means Equilibra can invest significantly into Special Attack while still withstanding repetitive attacks from foes like Syclant, Kerfluffle, Jumbao, and Pajantom, while the latter has essentially shut out the viability of most other Ground-type attackers. Pokemon are essentially invalidated from use because Equilibra is so difficult to make meaningful progress versus, as Levitate means it's not being punished by entry hazards at all, and thus games are often dictated on these Equilibra versus Equilibra scenarios in which each battler's check to Equilibra is their own.

I think we can also expand discourse on Equilibra's abilities from here because it vastly changes available counterplay to Equilibra and what Pokemon it handles. With Bulletproof, common coverage like Alakazam's Focus Blast and even Dragapult's Shadow Ball are simply stonewalled, but I don't really view this as much of a problem. Bulletproof opens Equilibra up much more to opposing Ground-types like Rhyperior and Sand Rush Excadrill, makes Equilibra incapable of checking itself, and still leaves it dropped by Kerfluffle's Close Combat, whereas Levitate leaves it more vulnerable to coverage like Jumbao's and Alakazam's Focus Blast. The difference in play between abilities is mostly trivial because you can usually discern from Team Preview what ability the opponent's Equilibra has; I don't think it's some tasking order to figure out how to manage the opposing Equilibra in that sense. I think the main issue really is how reliable Levitate is, though. As a spinner, it makes Equilibra incredibly self sufficient because you aren't prone to being worn down as much because of the Spikes immunity; I think Bulletproof sets are much easier to pressure even with Wish Astrolotl being more common right now just because Spikes residual puts significantly more pressure on the Equilibra user to preserve its HP and not play so haphazardly with it. There's a bit more opportunity cost in my eyes when building with Bulletproof Equilibra; thus, I am a proponent of removing Levitate. I don't really agree with their being much of any case to remove Bulletproof in the current metagame; with the bans to Magearna and Cinderace, there's much less that Bulletproof is stopping that's integral for Pokemon dealing with checks.

When it comes to stats, I think Equilibra is both too bulky and too powerful. As stated earlier, there is far too little opportunity cost for heavily investing in Special Attack; Equilibra's natural bulk is so high that it still blanket checks powerful neutral attackers like Syclant and Pajantom and takes super effective coverage from the likes of Zeraora and Kerfluffle really easily. I would argue this is also a prime reason those Urshifu-S + Equilibra cores are so nasty; current Equilibra's Doom Desire is nigh impossible for anything bar resistant walls and the pink blobs to switch into, which vastly complicates how to play around the wallbreakers that typically try to dissuade common Doom Desire answers from switching in to take it.

Here are some examples of Equilibra's current bulk to show how it's quite easy to reach certain benchmarks:
252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Equilibra: 178-210 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Kerfluffle Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Equilibra: 182-216 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Equilibra: 183-216 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind these are more meant to show how Equilibra isn't exactly reaching to switch into such foes and then go from there. In an ideal one-on-one, Equilibra can much more easily deal with these foes because they lack the power to immediately drop it, and depending on ability choice (Levitate versus Bulletproof), Equilibra can even more effectively deal with foes reliant on say, Focus Blast, to beat it.

While I think it's very easy to go from here and just argue for a bulk nerf given that'd indirectly hit Equilibra's Special Attack, I believe it'd be better to nerf both Defense and Special Attack. Sure, you could gut the hell out of Equilibra's Defense and prevent it from really benefiting much at all from investing in the stat, but I don't think that really solves the problem of Doom Desire---Equilibra in general---being a pain in the ass to switch into. I don't have numbers in mind because Equilibra's numbers were made with a different set of Pokemon in mind, and so actually adjusting its stats is hard to do in any manner that's not arbitrary. Here are some example calculations with -10 to its Defense, though, with the goal being to reach the above benchmarks:

252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Equilibra: 178-210 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Kerfluffle Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Equilibra: 182-216 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Equilibra: 183-216 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The numbers change dramatically, with the Kerfluffle benchmark even requiring a +Defense nature now. I can't really speak to if this is an "ideal" number nerf here or whatever, and of course I really didn't go into specifics regarding Equilibra's Special Attack. But I do believe looking into damage nerfs beyond the indirect ones that Defense nerfs would create should be considered.

 

[Voltage]

Throwing in my two cents here. I had to parse a few CAPPL replays to get my point across with why I feel that one of Equilibra's abilities is the issue (along with some ridiculous bulk margins, but that's the not the point right now). The OP references the duality of Equilibra's immunities, and Quziel has often been very vocal about how the abilities are effectively binary. And of course, one can essentially determine which ability Libra is running from team preview. If The opponent's team doesn't have its own Libra check, their Libra is Levitate. Otherwise, their Libra is Bulletproof. This would work enough of the time, but has the stipulation that everyone builds absolutely perfectly at all times.

Ultimately, Equilibra has a Quantum Ability Problem as I like to call it. Sometimes there are cases where you,as the player, have to play against Equilibra that has both abilities at the same time until you observe which ability it is. I have a few CAPPL Replays to show what I mean.

First I have my Week 1 match vs Rabia (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8cap-1154093886). From my team, I think that it's pretty clear that My Libra was bullet proof as I lacked an answer to Focus Blast, Alakazam and Magearna in general. With Rabia's team though, I remember having a notably harder time identifying whether or not their team had a better Equilibra answer other than Levitate. Through the game, I wasn't able to spam Weather Ball on my Specs Pelipper on the off chance that it WAS Bulletproof as I would likely lose a ton of momentum in making that mistake. I was able to determine the ability midway through the game, but there were absolutely turns in hindsight hwere I could've made plays had I not had to play with both of Libra's abilities being spectrally present.

Another match I thought was really notable was Andyb0y vs. Mx (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8cap-1162163387). This matchup, it's pretty clear, again, that Mx's Equilibra SHOULD be Bulletproof due to his team's two ground immunities as well as switchins to a Doom Desire (Manibuzz and Snorlax). However, With andy's team, there's a bit more question behind it since Andy DOES have a Tomohawk for a ground immunity, but doesn't have a great reliable answer for Doom Desires outside of Slowking and any SpDef on Astro (outside of his own Libra obviously). Going into this from the preview, I would've been more likely to assume that this Libra was Levitate. However, the team was also very Mage weak, so there was absolutely room to doubt Levitate here. Andy's team is a clear example of where one would absolutely have to play with Equilibra having both abilities. I would've been wrong too since this Libra was, infact Bulletproof.

The last match I want to bring to this post is less of a "Quantum-issue", but the fact that you can absolutely assume incorrectly from team preview, and that the argument "well this isn't hard if you're a good player" is moot. Jrdn vs. pdt (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8cap-1157263530-lfqarmu2uqind7k6yvzjjl5jn6nbnbcpw) happened. Both players are absolutely fantastic players and builders, but my point s comes at pdt's team. PDT has two ground immunties, but is weak still to some of Equilibra's common moves. However, the team is also very obviously weak to threats like Scarf Mage or CM Draining Kiss Mage as well. I may be a little narrow-minded here, but from preview I, along with some others I watched this with, thought that this Libra absolutely had to be Bulletproof. I was proved wrong at Turn 9 when Libra didn't take Spikes damage, of course, and jrdn obviously capitalized on it by the using Aura Sphere on the Libra effectively doing about 50% on it. But it wasn't until that Spikes reveal that jrdn was able to just click the correct move on Tomohawk, and while I don't know how pdt wouldn't have revealed Levitate once Spikes were up, it's clear that had jrdn not gotten spikes up immediately as a scouting tool, it would've been much harder, if not impossible, for him to confidently click Aura Sphere in a different Tomohawk v Equilibra matchup.

There are more replays from more recent weeks that I could use to prove my point as well, but I think I fall firmly in the camp that either Levitate or Bulletproof needs to go, along with some reducing of bulk or special attacking. Rabia has done an excellent job showing off some problematic calcs that Equilibra has and I'm hoping to highlight just how obnoxious Equilibra is to play against with regards to having to play against a quantum ability.

Also, personally, I don't think Pain Split is that big of an issue on Equilibra, as compared to the other two grievances raised. I admit that I haven't played against many Pain Split Libras, but the one I played against last night in a room tour vs. Andy was only good at prolonging DD turns to make sure it could keep firing off moves from its inordinately high special attack. Furthermore, Pain Split isn't exactly a reliable form of recovery either. As an example, Equilibra has a very difficult time against Rotom-Wash, and Spamming Pain Split is very unlikely to help Libra actually live more hits than it should be. The argument against the fat pink blobs is notable, but I have to wonder if Libra would ever actually win in a Seismic Toss + Softboiled vs. Pain Split DD 1v1 (especially since we already removed Toxic from its movepool). My final point on Pain split maybe not being as big of an issue, and maybe this is just a flaw of people not really seeing it as a bigger threat than it is, but Pain Split Libra sees almost no usage in the first place. This, again may be the result of the meta not shifting enough to where it's currently necessary, but almost all Libra are running some form of DD / EP / Flash Cannon / Rapid Spin, sometimes sacrificing Flash Cannon for Protect, or sometimes Pain Split. However, the loss of immediate Steel STAB does hurt Libra significantly especially when matchup against threats like LO Jumbao and any Ground immune mon like Mandibuzz and Tomohawk. Again, might just be an eventual meta shift, but there was minimal usage in CAPPL, and there's been minimal usage in room tours from what I understand (please correct me if this isn't the case). In short, I don't believe removing Pain Split solves any of the issues that we currently have with Libra.

But otherwise, these are my thoughts on mainly ability and a refutation against Pain Split being the problem. I didn't go into the stats here much just because, again, I think Rabia's done a good job at highlighting just how annoying Libra's bulk + Special attacking power really is. That's all for me at the moment though.

 

[jas61292]

There are a number of issues with Equilibra, but I think the most pressing one is its abilities. Simply put, having two immunity abilities, neither of which necessarily reveal themselves on switch in, is often like having both abilities. Until and unless you know which one it has, you can never safely use either Ground or Ballistic moves, as giving away that free turn can easily cost you a match. Simply eliminating the mind games that come with Equilibra would go a long way to making it more manageable.

Now, in terms of which ability should go, I think the answer is easily Bulletproof. While Levitate shuts down all ground moves, which is a common offensive type, I'd actually argue Bulletproof is responsible for shutting down more Pokemon. Anything that would rely on a special fighting move to take hit Equilibra simply cannot. Negating Focus Blast and Aura Sphere is simply huge. Pokemon like Alakazam or Jumbao who could otherwise deal a big chunk to it are left completely walled, while something like Tomohawk is forced to run a coverage move instead of a STAB if it wants to be able to damage it. And the added switch in opportunities from a Shadow Ball immunity is also a big deal. The ground immunity from Levitate is obviously also a big deal, but looking at the viability rankings, you would have to drop way further down to find a Pokemon that is hard walled by Levitate Equi than you do for Bulletproof.

As a secondary note, I also believe we should be biased towards keeping Levitate for the simple reason that it is the primary ability. Looking at the secondary ability discussion, it is clear that trying not to overshadow the primary ability was a large goal there. Seriously, I searched the thread for the word "overshadow," and, well, it appears a lot. Yet, in the current metagame, I have heard the sentiment expressed that, unless your Equilibra is your best Equilibra check, you should run Bulletproof. All else equal, I think we should stick true to the original projects intents and take the primary ability (which, by the way, was indeed chosen with Spikes immunity in mind), rather than the secondary that was not supposed to outshine it.

All that said, I believe that, even with an ability removed, Equilibra would likely still be stronger than we would like. And I believe the only way to fix this would be to reduce its stats. But in terms of how those stats should be reduced, I think the answer is that we should take a nice big chunk out of its defense. Like, at least 20 points, if not more. The biggest issue with Equilibra, in my opinion, outside the ability mind games, is that it is too damn hard to break down. Equilibra is bulky. Really, freaking bulky. And its defensive typing is quite fantastic too. This is, of course, by design. We wanted it to be able to come in and get off a Doom Desire, so we made it easy to switch in. What we obviously underestimated was how good Doom Desire was. Now, we could fix this by weakening SpA and making Doom Desire weaker, but I think that that both is a more direct attack on Equilibra's intended role, and is not as effective. Doom Desire being strong is nice, but the simple fact that it is big damage coming two turns later is what makes it good. Making the damage a little less big is not going to have a huge impact. What will have a big impact is making it harder for Equilibra to actually get the move off. Making it far, far harder for it to come in on physical hits would do that, while preserving its ability to be a decent check to special attackers.

I think it should also be noted that the most common Equilibra sets run defensive EVs to help it check certain Pokemon. Unless one of its stats is completely gutted, there is a good chance it will adjust its EVs to allow it to still check some of the same threats, meaning that, regardless of the specific nerf, it will end up running similar sets. What this means is that a nerf we make will be far more about what it has the potential to do, especially after a metagame shift, than what it would actually be doing currently. And I'd personally rather preserve its ability to absolutely nuke something than its ability to switch in all the time with impunity.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I believe that Equilibra's primary issue is its gigantic bulk and Special Attack. I am less convinced that its Abilities are what makes it broken in the current metagame. CAP veterans might remember the Build Triangle concept - the idea that a Pokemon's viability is a function of its Power (offensive typing, raw stats, power of moves, and ability to boost them), Bulk (defensive typing, stats, and ability to heal/boost defenses), and Speed (stats, access to priority, and ability to boost Speed). Relative to the metagames in Gen 7 and Gen 8, Equilibra received boosts to both Bulk and Speed even though Gen 8 has experienced serious power decreep from Gen 7.

The most obvious area where Equilibra has been buffed is its bulk. It runs the same sets it always has, but the fact that it can run Leftovers while most other bulky attackers in the metagame are stuck with Heavy-Duty Boots gives it a huge edge. There are countless examples in high-level play of an Equilibra losing 50% or 60% of its HP only to slowly abuse the free turns granted to it by its numerous immunities and recover its HP through Leftovers all while wearing down its opponents who are no longer afforded the same recovery.

Another area where Equilibra has been buffed is its Speed. Now, its raw Speed hasn't changed, but the mechanics of the move Rapid Spin have. Even an uninvested Equilibra can start to outspeed walls such as Tomohawk and Mandibuzz after a Rapid Spin boost. While that might not sound like a big deal, it means that weakened Tomohawks and Mandibuzzes are much less free to switch into Equilibra to try to get off a quick Roost, Knock Off, or attack. It also puts additional pressure on the team facing Equilibra, as a particularly daring Equilibra player could go for a second Rapid Spin - at which point the Libra is outspeeding Pokemon such as Urshifu, non-Scarf Jumbao, and Excadrill. Equilibra was designed for its Speed to be its Achilles heel, but changes to Rapid Spin make that shortcoming easier to overcome.

I agree that Libra is a "Quantum Ability Pokemon", and that diagnosing an opposing Libra's Ability is incredibly important. Sometimes it's obvious by Team Preview (if your opponent is loaded with Ground wekanesses or doesn't have an obvious Libra check, it's Levitate. Otherwise it's probably Bulletproof). I don't think this is a problem if we re-balance Equilibra around its "Quantum Ability", as diagnosing the opposing Libra's set rewards players who skillfully read the Team Preview and make moves to bait out the opponent's Pokemon's sets. I'd rather we re-balance Equilibra's stats than cut an Ability, but if one must go - let it be Bulletproof for the reasons jas61292 laid out.

Furthermore, the combination of powerful, delayed-attack moves like Doom Desire and big breakers such as Urshifu or Rillaboom severely hamper stall as a playstyle. Ultimately, there just aren't enough Pokemon that can hope to take both a Doom Desire off of a gigantic Special Attack plus a Wicked Blow all in the same turn and live to tell the tale. The only way to combat this is to look at Equilibra's Special Attack. There's also the question of if we want to change what Equilibra does entirely or just make it a little worse at its job without fundamentally changing what the job is. I'm more partial to the latter, and believe that the best way of nerfing Equilibra are modest to moderate reductions in Special Attack, Defensive Stats, and Speed.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

WIP

First, congrats to Voltage and Atha for joining the CAP Council.
They are both brilliant players who have done so much for CAP and have proven themselves time and again.
I knew the day of 2nd round of equal nerfs are coming...and oh boy Ive been prepping for this day.

In general, I really don't like nerfing or banning Pokemon unless absolutely necessary. Nerfs hurt and can take away some of the fun and enjoyment of a game or a specific Pokemon. Instead of nerfs, a focus should be on buffing. But in CAP, there are only so many elements that can be controlled, and nerfs and bans are the primary way we can manipulate the metagame. But its because of this general mentality I have, the nerfs Im looking for are on the conservative side of things.

Equil was a concept that was incredibly successful. It showed the viability of delayed moves in the OU/CAP Meta before Teleporting Slows rocked the meta. Buts its nutty that after 1 round of nerfs, here we are again.
Though I can understand why the Council would do this because its somewhat overcentralizing the meta. While I wasn't actively involved in the design process, I learned people overcompensated in some areas of Equals design.

Note: I will be referring to old Pokes confirmed to be coming back in DLC 2. While people will point out nerfs are due to current meta changes, Fall 2020 is right around the corner and this is the 1st Pokemon game to have DLC like this. While its important to focus on present, we should also look to the future.

Why is Equal good: Equal right now has a little bit of everything. Scary Doom Desire, fantantisc def type, 2 strong def abilities that cover different matchups, hard to whittle down with residual dmg, and 133 SpA. Its weakness comes from lack of speed, recovery, and meh coverage but this can be overcame with good team support, speed isn't a big deal anymore thanks to buffed rapid spin, and coverage is compensated by power. There isn't 1 super amazing thing about Equal that sticks out to me, instead its that it has a little bit of everything causing the total package to be greater than the sum of its parts.

Like my post about Astro, Im breaking this down into nerfs Im against, spit, and pro.

Nerfs Im against:
Lowering SpA: Okay this has no competitive reasoning but a experience feeling. While nerfs are meant for "competitive balance" (something the more I play the more I get confused and frustrated about), nerfs shouldn't take away the fun/satistifaction of using the poke in the first place. To me, there is something oddly satisfying about setting up a Doom Desire and watching it rip on something. Doom Desire only has 8 PP, so I want to get the most bang for my buck and compared to Slows, Equal has a harder time setting up again and again because no regen, slack off, or teleport. Also, Equal Ev spreads is make Equal as bulky and fast as you need it to be, then throw rest in SpA. By nerfing bulk in some way/form I think this will inherently decrease the SpA without needing to touch the actual stat.

Nerf HP: Yes Equals bulk is really good overall, but I don't want an overall bulk nerf by hitting its HP or both def stats. Equal needs to be bulky to partially compensate for lack of recovery and gets its gameplan going. Instead, we should nerf one of the def stats instead of overall bulk.

Nerfs Im Split About:

Nerfs I Support:
Remove Levitate or Bulletproof: This is secretly one of Libras greatest strength. The fact that you have 2 abilities that let specifically help Equal address some of its weaknesses is huge. And the scary part of it is, its basically a 50/50. Unless you scout the ability via trace or Libra switching in on Spikes, your have to gamble on throwing out a move. And wasting a turn can make or break a game because 1 turn is all Libra need to set up another Doom. Arguments have been made that you can infer based on team preview, but I disagree about this. There have been games where Team Preview makes you think Bulletproof but it turns out Levitate or vise-versa. Though this might have to deal with me being a trash player. I believe that when this was first discussed that Levitate as Primary and Bulletproof as secondary would be more of a 80/20 than 50/50, but there are 2 points in Gen 8 CAP that stick out to me when it really felt like a 50/50. These metas are bellow:

1) Begin of Gen 8 CAP when Dug/Ground type+Fairy core was running around, the choice was tricky. Bulletproof let Equal wreck offensive fairies like Jumbo and Kerfluff, at the cost of being weak to Ground and being trapped by Dug. Levitate meant no dug trapping you and helps against the ground part of the core but the offensive fairies can hit with Focus Blast.
2) The meta right before Mag and Cinder was banned: Mag and Cinder (+ Ala) are key targets Equal handled with Bulletproof to the point that while OU found Cinder and Mag to much for them, they were quite mangeable in CAP. But ground moves and spike pressure (mainly because Astro) lead to Levitate still being seen often. In both battling and team building, this causes a 50/50 and made Equal that much harder to break. Removing one of these abilities would decrease the def utility of Equal and make it easier to check.
Removing Levitate would probably be more extreme, but more meaningful. Now the Ground weakness is always a thing, Levitate Equal mirrors will stop being a thing (thank god), and Equal taking spikes dmg making its easier to check with passive dmg. Note that with DLC brining back Chomp, no Levitate means Chomp can actually Check Equal quite well. Removing Bulletproof makes certain winning matchups into losing matchups making Equal easier to check. Removing both is excessive, but I think removing 1 of these 2 is something the Council should consider.

Decrease Physical Def:
Instead of hitting the bulk overall, I would nerf physical def. With 80 EV and leftovers, Equal is 3hko by CB syclant Icicle Crash makes it incredibly bulk and have a lot of opportunity to switch in. Equal bulk is 102/96/118. The special bulk is similar to the physical bulk of Hippo and Cyc which is 108/118. Sure they have slack off, but lack the other def qualities that libra has in spades likes def abilities, X4 resist to SR, and immunity to toxic. Hippo has 72 Spd, Cyc has 80. The actual def stat nerf can be debated but in an effort to keep Equals bulk in line with other mons that have similar ish bulk spread to it, decreasing Equal physical bulk to be =>70 but <=80. That way, Equal is easier to check with physical attacks, and will likely cause more investment in def stat to compensate. This should lead to a decrease in SpA investment, thus decreasing SpA without needing to touch the stat.

Also, OP has shown that the go to checks are special attackers. Instead of making those matchups better, lets make other pokes better at checking Equal.

Or dont do any of this at all because my opinion should be taken with a truck of salt due to the fact that Im utter gutter trash.
Ty everyone for attending my rant.

 

[Badger]

This mon has always been broken. I stopped playing CAP for a bit but am unsurprised to see it still sitting at the peak of the meta.

Now what're it's problems? Well, #1, Levitate is a stupid ability when you don't know if your opponent has it or not. It's just a crappy mind game that seems really unbalanced to me, especially when that mon has that ridiculous special attack stat, amazing defensive typing, and Doom Desire. I suggest removing levitate and replacing it with another, far less useful, ability, such as Synchronize (which, you have to admit, makes sense based on it being about equilibrium.)

Another broken thing about Equilibra is the fact that even Blissey doesn't want to come in on it, as it will often get pain splitted and just like that, full HP and a free switch. Although this seems sort of dumb, I think removing pain split from it's learnset will be a very healthy change, maybe not as important as the first but still a good one.

Finally, the stat distribution. As with most CAP mons, it's stats seem to be perfect for what it needs to do. 50 attack being it's lowest stat doesn't really deter it. With almost 560 BST and almost none of that being used on stats it doesn't need, I think it's attack stat should be buffed a little bit and it's special defense, special attack, maybe speed and overall BST be nerfed. This will make more sense for the design of the mon, and even out the stat distribution while also making it easier to break, easer to switch into, and combined with a removal of pain split, will make it much more manageable.

I think no matter what we do for this mon it will still be very viable in CAP due to it's great typing and doom desire, which is such a great combo.

 

[Mx]

First of all I'd like to announce that the metagame council is currently planning on looking at Equilibra this Saturday afternoon, so consider this a ~42 hour warning before the end of the thread.

Apart from that here's some of my own personal thoughts on this issue:

I think Equilibra is a very complicated case, as the combination of all its attributes is what makes it so overwhelming. It's bulk means that only a few select Pokemon can actually break it reliably, it's power means that there are barely any switch ins, and Doom Desire can easily put you into no win situations.

Changing one of Equilibra's abilities has been one of the most common suggestions on how to nerf it, but I think it would run into some important issues. Removing Bulletproof sounds good in theory and it would make counterplay against Equilibra much more linear, both in the teambuilder and in game; however Bulletproof is not that common at the moment, and I think that removing it wouldn't address any of the more important issues, namely the huge bulk and very punishing nature of Doom Desire coming from a 133 SpA stat. If we want to remove an ability, I think removing Levitate would be the superior choice, as taking Spikes damage would make it much easier to wear down and Pokemon like Sand Rush Excadrill and Choice Band Syclant would give it a lot more trouble. That said, I could definitely see the argument against removing Levitate simply because it is the primary ability and removing Bulletproof alongside a small stat nerf should do the trick just fine too. Ultimately, I'm not really convinced that removing either ability is necessary.

I believe lowering stats would probably be a better path to take in order to achieve a good result, as the combination of raw bulk and power is what truly makes Equilibra overwhelming in my opinion. That said, this is a very tricky task, as Equilibra is incredibly flexible. In theory, this flexibility could mean that any reasonable reduction we make will lead up to the same final result, as Equilibra should be able adapt by changing its EV spread; however, because Equilibra will always pick its most optimal spread, it should always be able to minimize any nerf, and therefore we need to be extra careful when doing this. To make it easier to predict the power of the post-nerf Equilibra I think we should always aim to alter only one stat. As for which stat we should alter, I think Special Attack would be my pick. Even from its original stat submission, SpA has always been considered Equilibra's dump stat and this is true for most of the standard spreads, so if any stat would be nerfed, it should translate to a SpA drop on practice. Therefore, I'd rather simplify things by just directly target SpA.

Deciding the exact number is also pretty challenging. I would like to avoid doing something like arbitrarily reducing SpA (or any other stat for that matter) by 10 points, so I decided to search for various benchmarks that occur as you lower SpA. For the purpose of this, I used the analysis EV spread of 252 HP / 80 Def / 132 SpA / 44 SpD. This means that while Equilibra could just invest more more SpA to prevent these, it would then miss its those defensive benchmarks. I'd also imagine that a similar number of benchmarks would appear in any other spread.

Benchmarks for Equilibra's SpA

130 SpA
Earth Power can't guarantee a 3HKO on Ferrothorn (252 HP / 4 SpD)
Earth Power can't guarantee a 3HKO on Amoonguss (252 HP/ 92 SpD)
129 SpA
Earth Power can't OHKO Aegislash-Shield (4 HP / 0 SpD)
128 SpA
Earth Power can't OHKO Krilowatt
Flash Cannon + Doom Desire can't KO Mandibuzz (252 HP / 44 SpD)
126 SpA
Earth Power can't guarantee a OHKO on Urshifu-Single Strike
125 SpA
Doom desire can't OHKO Venusaur after Stealth Rock
Earth Power can't OHKO Jirachi (0 HP / 4 SpD)
124 SpA
Doom Desire can't 2HKO Zeraora
Earth Power can't 2HKO Pajantom (0 HP / 0 SpD)
Earth Power can't guarantee a 3HKO on Kommo-o (252 HP / 40 SpD)
123 SpA
Doom Desire can't OHKO Hydreigon after Stealth Rock
122 SpA
Flash Cannon can't 2HKO Hydreigon
121 SpA
Doom Desire can't 2HKO Smokomodo
Earth Power + Doom Desire can't KO Mandibuzz (252 HP / 44 SpD)
120 SpA
Flash Cannon can't OHKO Jumbao (0 HP / 0 SpD) after Stealth Rock
119 SpA
Earth Power can't 2HKO Slowbro (252 HP / 4 SpD)
Doom Desire can't OHKO Rillaboom
117 SpA
Doom Desire can't OHKO Dragapult
116 SpA
Earth Power can't 2HKO Volcarona (mostly relevant when a SpD drop happens)
Doom Desire can't 2HKO Skarmory (252 HP / 4 SpD)

I wouldn't say that any of these benchmarks are particularly important, but I think that they add up pretty quickly and alongside the general power decrease of lowering SpA, they should be enough to make Equilibra much less oppressive. I personally think 121 SpA (-12 from its current value) seems like the best place to go.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Bite-sized post on SpA, but I'd also like to add in 118 SpA, which guarantees that Earth Power cannot OHKO 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex with Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes down. As a corner case, it could allow for a Pex to guarantee a Knock Off (or Scald to pick off a weakened Libra/fish for a burn) or at least make the Libra second-guess staying in.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

After some discussion and reading over Mx's post, Im going to give a more dedicated stance of an Equal nerf.
A stat drop and a ability removal would actually be pretty extreme. So just a stat drop is the way to go.
Equal ev spreads have always been make it as fast and bulky as needed, and spa is the dump stat.
Equal has an amazing def typing, incredibly hard to wear down with passive dmg (especially with levitate), and super bulky at 102/96/118.
Compare this to Hippo who has 108/118/72 bulk and Cyc which has 108/118/80 bulk, Equals bulk is extremely well rounded. Yes it lacks slack off, but its immune to poison, spikes (with levitate), and x4 resist SR which makes it really hard to kill with passive dmg.
Thanks to its bulk and high SpA, even with 132 SpA Ev a modest nature, Equal is both a tank and a nuke.

Instead, I propose cutting physical def to 88.
I will be using the same stat spread Mx used which is the following EV spread of 252 HP / 80 Def / 132 SpA / 44 SpD and a modest nature.

To get the same physical bulk baseline, Equal would require 144 def EV based on the following calc:

252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Equilibra: 183-216 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

132 SpA EVs with a Modest Nature and a base stat of 121 puts Equals SpA at 342.
With only 40 SpA evs and a modest nature, Equals new SpA is 343 which is nearly identical to what Mx proposed.

The reason I want to nerf physical def over special attack is because it adds a bit more depth in team building than just a straight SpA nerf. Bellow are the new options when it comes to Equal EV spread:
1) Equal still wants to hit the same defensive benchmarks as it did pre-nerf. This would cause SpA evs to be shifted to Def Evs. This inherently decreases the Special attack stat without actually touching the base stat at all.
2) But lets say you want your Doom Desires to be utter nukes (and who wouldn't, thats one of Equals greatest appeals). You still have the same potential fire power as pre-nerf but at the calculated risk of not hitting the established physical defensive benchmarks.

Most players would likely prefer A rather than B due to the nature of how Equal EV spreads are built.
Basically, dropping SpA forces Equals nuke potential to go down but keep its tank potential. The proper physical bulk nerf forces players to decide. Do I want my Equal to be Nuke or a Tank? It can be one, but can't be both.
Ive thought of dropping physical bulk more, but I can't find the right number right now and I wanted a def number that should cause SpA be similar to what Mx proposed in a very different way.

Option B: Remove Levitate
Ive already made a previous post about this, but when the meta causes Equal ability pick to be a 50/50, it leads to big swings. Guessing wrong can cost a huge shift in game momentum because thats all Equal needs to set up Doom. Removal of levitate inherently makes Equal less bulky because now its forced to take spikes dmg, suddenly more Pokemon can properly check it, and makes the Equal mirror less obnoxious thank god. Yes it was meant to be a primary ability, but I don't think people expected Equal to be so good that it needs to be nerfed 2 times.

At the end of the day, Equals strength is that has a mix of everything causes the total to be greater than the sum of its parts. Nerf one part has a big impact on the total package which is why Im advocating for either 1 nerf or the other. Both is way to excessive.

Hopefully, this post was able to fully articulate my opinion/stance I have with nerfing Equal. If you disagree with me, thats totally fine. I don't expect people to agree with me at all on this. And I realistically don't expect these to be the nerfs the council decides.
But if this post was able to offer a new perspective, properly argue my stance, and people read it, Im happy.

And wow this tired me out a bit. I can't imagine what my CAP stat spread will be like. Ive already begun drafting the format of the document.

Though maybe these ideas all stem from me being a suttborn dumbass who doesn't want SpA touched even though its a far simpler nerf and the nerf the majority of players want. RIP Doom Desire nukes. You were fun while you lasted.

 

[Mx]

Alright, the metagame council has discussed Equilibra and reached a conclusion:

Equilibra
Ability: -Bulletproof
Stats: 102 HP / 50 Atk / 96 Def / 121 SpA ( Lowered 12 SpA) / 118 SpD / 60 Spe​

Tagging Marty to please implement this on Monday, to avoid messing with the current forum tournament. These changes only need to be applied to Gen 8. For the moment Justyke should keep Bulletproof.

We started by discussing abilities. Removing Levitate was considered but was quickly decided not to be the best option. Removing Bulletproof was discussed for a bit but was rejected for the moment. We then moved onto stats, where many possible changes were brought up. -12 Special Attack was considered for the ability to make standard Mandibuzz (252 HP / 44 SpD) always tank Earth Power+Doom Desire with 132 SpA EVs. -6 Defense was mentioned too, as it would mean that for a 252 HP / 0 Def spread, Pajantom would always be able to 2HKO with a Banded Spirit Shackle. Reductions to HP, SpD and Spe were also discussed briefly, but they weren't deemed to be worth targeting. After a heated debate, we were unable to come to an agreement on how to handle stats by themselves, so we decided to go back to abilities. Despite not seeing much use at the current time, it was decided to remove Bulletproof due to the way it constrains a lot of Pokemon on the teambuilder, such as Choice Specs Aegislash, Alakazam, and Aura Sphere Tomohawk.

After that, we went back to stats. With Bulletproof already removed, this time we came to a much clearer consensus that only Equilibra's SpA needed to be reduced, as the raw power behind its Doom Desire was the main problematic element here. Apart from the already discussed -12 SpA, -9 SpA was also considered at this stage, as it would mean that at 132 SpA, Earth Power cannot 2HKO offensive Pajantom. Ultimately the council decided to go with the slightly harsher -12 SpA. For reference, here's some benchmarks that Equilibra would now miss assuming 132 EVs on SpA:

Benchmarks

Earth Power can't guarantee a 3HKO on Ferrothorn (252 HP / 4 SpD)
Earth Power can't guarantee a 3HKO on Amoonguss (252 HP/ 92 SpD)
Earth Power can't OHKO Aegislash-Shield (4 HP / 0 SpD)
Earth Power can't OHKO Krilowatt
Flash Cannon + Doom Desire can't KO Mandibuzz (252 HP / 44 SpD)
Earth Power can't guarantee a OHKO on Urshifu-Single Strike
Doom desire can't OHKO Venusaur after Stealth Rock
Earth Power can't OHKO Jirachi (0 HP / 4 SpD)
Doom Desire can't 2HKO Zeraora
Earth Power can't 2HKO Pajantom (0 HP / 0 SpD)
Earth Power can't guarantee a 3HKO on Kommo-o (252 HP / 40 SpD)
Doom Desire can't OHKO Hydreigon after Stealth Rock
Flash Cannon can't 2HKO Hydreigon
Doom Desire can't 2HKO Smokomodo
Earth Power + Doom Desire can't KO Mandibuzz (252 HP / 44 SpD)

At that point, we agreed that would be it and no further nerfs were needed. We believe these two nerfs should be enough to make Equilibra much more manageable both on the teambuilder and during the game, as the lower power means that it should be easier to play around it, its Doom Desire should be less punishing, and there are many more options that can reliably pressure it. Thanks everyone for participating and we look forward to the metagame developing after this changes!