I agree, but only because I like sleep/species clause and want dynamax banned.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame National Dex AG Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Pigeons
- Start date
- Status
Mega and Z moves are more likely to get banned than Dynamax in Natdex AG though, since those are Gen 7 mechanics.
Last edited:
I believe this isn't the right thread for this, the Simple Questions, Simple Answers would be more appropriate, but still, answering your question: they said that they're going to create new tiers for National Dex if enough interest is shown (we already have OU and AG, and Random is already confirmed on the future).
I also support Nat Dex Ubers and saw many people on the Ubers room wanting it too, but you should ask that here to get an answer from the higher ups, here it's the metagame discussion for AG.
I built a Gen 8 team around Primal Kyogre, and it got me to #47 (I have tilted tho).
Dusk Mane Necrozma is a good Stealth Rock setter because of the rise of Xerneas and trappers. Shed Shell allows it to escape any trappers, since it loses to both MGar and Gothitelle otherwise. It's also immune to Toxic, a common form of damage by Defoggers. This means the only real defogger that beats it is Ho-oh. Many Arceus-Ground tend to ignore SpA investment if they have Defog, focusing more on HP and Def. Doing this makes them miss the 2HKO.
Primal Kyogre is just super busted in this meta. No one preps for it, so you can just lead with it and get a free kill with Water Spout. Calm Mind is a lot less of an option: you let MGar trap you, and you can't beat Ditto 1v1. You also have a lot less chances to set up due to the rise of offense and physical attackers. Thunder fixes these issues, and the 12 SpD IVs allow Thunder to always beat opposing Ditto 1v1.
Choice Scarf Mega Rayquaza is the best set, no question. Dragon Ascent and Draco Meteor are self-explanatory. V-create OHKOs Zacian-Crowned, while Earthquake does not.
Extreme Speed may seem like a strange choice, but it's there to revenge kill boosted threats. This can change your game from a sweep to a potential comeback.
Ho-oh is self-explanatory. Next.
Substitute Swords Dance Zacian-Crowned is a great set. Behind Substitute, you avoid counter-sweeps from Ditto, and beat would-be checks such as Ho-oh. Behemoth Blade and Wild Charge hit most of the metagame for at least neutral. Not much else to say.
Ditto is also self-explanatory.
Anyway, this is the main team I've been using in Gen 8!
Dusk Mane Necrozma is a good Stealth Rock setter because of the rise of Xerneas and trappers. Shed Shell allows it to escape any trappers, since it loses to both MGar and Gothitelle otherwise. It's also immune to Toxic, a common form of damage by Defoggers. This means the only real defogger that beats it is Ho-oh. Many Arceus-Ground tend to ignore SpA investment if they have Defog, focusing more on HP and Def. Doing this makes them miss the 2HKO.
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 153-181 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Primal Kyogre is just super busted in this meta. No one preps for it, so you can just lead with it and get a free kill with Water Spout. Calm Mind is a lot less of an option: you let MGar trap you, and you can't beat Ditto 1v1. You also have a lot less chances to set up due to the rise of offense and physical attackers. Thunder fixes these issues, and the 12 SpD IVs allow Thunder to always beat opposing Ditto 1v1.
252+ SpA Ditto Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 238-280 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ditto: 238-280 (100.4 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ditto: 238-280 (100.4 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Choice Scarf Mega Rayquaza is the best set, no question. Dragon Ascent and Draco Meteor are self-explanatory. V-create OHKOs Zacian-Crowned, while Earthquake does not.
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 248-292 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 442-522 (136 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 442-522 (136 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ho-oh is self-explanatory. Next.
Substitute Swords Dance Zacian-Crowned is a great set. Behind Substitute, you avoid counter-sweeps from Ditto, and beat would-be checks such as Ho-oh. Behemoth Blade and Wild Charge hit most of the metagame for at least neutral. Not much else to say.
Ditto is also self-explanatory.
Anyway, this is the main team I've been using in Gen 8!
Is it still central? How does it change from last gen
Primal Groudon in Natdex AG remains an extremely viable and integral option on teams. However, with stuff like Heavy Duty Boots Ho-oh and Lugia, and Arceus Ground being more prominent, expect Primal Groudon to run Stone Edge and Toxic over Overheat. Dynamax Zygarde, Lugia, Mega Rayquaza, Primal Kygore (sometimes), and Dynamax Trick Room Necrozma-DM are still significant problems for it though. On the other hand, it is one of the few Pokemon that can check our new Steel/Fairy (inferior) Mega Rayquaza wannabe, Zacian-C, and avoid the OHKO from a Close Combat. Overall, it is still excellent, but not centralizing as much as USUM AG.
I would argue that primal groudon is even better than the last generation now. It's typing allows it to switch in at least once if not many times into any zacian-c set, and that alone is extremely valuable. This means that groudon is even more splashable onto offensive teams than previously generations, especially considering how extremely threatening zacian-c and its very limited pool of reliable switch-ins.
Additionally the threats you listed above that hinder primal groudon, only dynamax trick room necrozma-DM is a new to this generation.
I do agree that with the popularity of boots ho-oh, it is a lot more attractive to run rock coverage on defensive stealth rock sets to keep hazards up.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Wanted to share some thoughts on some mons I been having a really fun time abusing / think that are really good:
Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 136 Def / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
Literally a monster under Dynamax, Xerneas heavily restricts teambuilding and is easily one of the best mons in the format. Usual "checks" such as Ho-Oh and more offensive Primal Groudon can be pressured by max moves and can struggle to even dent Xern when considering the surplus in bulk and inability to be phazed thanks to Dynamaxing. Even offensive checks such as Ditto, Ekiller, and Espeed Ray can fail to rkill it unless it is heavily weakened. I have been using Specially Defensive Necrozma-DM to cover this threat and imo it's hard to find anything else that can really pressure Xern as much. Even then, usually it forces me to Dmax with my own Necro-DM to even take it on, so ye this thing is hella busted lol.
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Play Rough
- Wild Charge
Another spashable threat that pairs well with Xern, Zacian-C is an amazing and diverse offensive threat as well. Coverage usually gives it enough room to threaten the entire metagame for the most part besides uncommon checks such as Aegislash. Substitute is usually preferred over Swords Dance as it prevents a Ditto countersweep and can pressure incoming switchins more readily. Usual checks to this include physically bulky Primal Groudon (which can still be worn down rather quick and does not appreciate +1 CC even then), Ho-Oh (which dies to Wild Charge), and physically defensive Arceus Ground. Dope mon that I feel deserves even more attention that it is already receiving.
Eternatus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
- Toxic
I been loving this mon too. Amazing Speed tier and impressive bulk that can shit on common cores such as Ho-Oh + Zygarde, Ferro + Zygarde, and most support Arceus forms. It can repeatedly set up Subs and Toxic through most mons and in general is just hard to properly check without tanky mons such as SpD Necro-DM, Tyranitar, and specially defensive Pdon.
Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- V-create
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
DD Ray is good ofc but this is it's best set hands down imo. It is just nice to offensively check and abundance of threats such as Zacian-C, Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, Mega Gengar, and DD Necrozma-DM. Although still, I feel Ray just struggles more in the SS meta compared to USM due to the abundance of offensive checks if it does not decide to run Scarf, although this is not dismissing the fact that it still warps the tier around itself to a certain degree (although not as much as mons such as Xerneas and Zacian-C imo).
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy / Occa Berry / Shuca Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge / Photon Geyser
Another amazing Dynamax abuser, the addition to DD in Necrozma's arsenal was truly a blessing. The foregoing of the need to run 2 setup moves just opens the door to a wide array of coverage options that can enable it to beat certain checks such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and other stuff. This is lowkey one of the best mons in the tier as well as it's Specially Defensive sets are also quite amazing in dealing with shit like NP Mega Mewtwo-Y, Xerneas, and Eternatus.
That's my thoughts for now, I am currently working on setting up a VR with a few other prominent players and can hopefully can be set up soon.
Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 136 Def / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
Literally a monster under Dynamax, Xerneas heavily restricts teambuilding and is easily one of the best mons in the format. Usual "checks" such as Ho-Oh and more offensive Primal Groudon can be pressured by max moves and can struggle to even dent Xern when considering the surplus in bulk and inability to be phazed thanks to Dynamaxing. Even offensive checks such as Ditto, Ekiller, and Espeed Ray can fail to rkill it unless it is heavily weakened. I have been using Specially Defensive Necrozma-DM to cover this threat and imo it's hard to find anything else that can really pressure Xern as much. Even then, usually it forces me to Dmax with my own Necro-DM to even take it on, so ye this thing is hella busted lol.
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Play Rough
- Wild Charge
Another spashable threat that pairs well with Xern, Zacian-C is an amazing and diverse offensive threat as well. Coverage usually gives it enough room to threaten the entire metagame for the most part besides uncommon checks such as Aegislash. Substitute is usually preferred over Swords Dance as it prevents a Ditto countersweep and can pressure incoming switchins more readily. Usual checks to this include physically bulky Primal Groudon (which can still be worn down rather quick and does not appreciate +1 CC even then), Ho-Oh (which dies to Wild Charge), and physically defensive Arceus Ground. Dope mon that I feel deserves even more attention that it is already receiving.
Eternatus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
- Toxic
I been loving this mon too. Amazing Speed tier and impressive bulk that can shit on common cores such as Ho-Oh + Zygarde, Ferro + Zygarde, and most support Arceus forms. It can repeatedly set up Subs and Toxic through most mons and in general is just hard to properly check without tanky mons such as SpD Necro-DM, Tyranitar, and specially defensive Pdon.
Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- V-create
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
DD Ray is good ofc but this is it's best set hands down imo. It is just nice to offensively check and abundance of threats such as Zacian-C, Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, Mega Gengar, and DD Necrozma-DM. Although still, I feel Ray just struggles more in the SS meta compared to USM due to the abundance of offensive checks if it does not decide to run Scarf, although this is not dismissing the fact that it still warps the tier around itself to a certain degree (although not as much as mons such as Xerneas and Zacian-C imo).
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy / Occa Berry / Shuca Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge / Photon Geyser
Another amazing Dynamax abuser, the addition to DD in Necrozma's arsenal was truly a blessing. The foregoing of the need to run 2 setup moves just opens the door to a wide array of coverage options that can enable it to beat certain checks such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and other stuff. This is lowkey one of the best mons in the tier as well as it's Specially Defensive sets are also quite amazing in dealing with shit like NP Mega Mewtwo-Y, Xerneas, and Eternatus.
That's my thoughts for now, I am currently working on setting up a VR with a few other prominent players and can hopefully can be set up soon.
Wouldn't you need at least 148 Spe EVs to outspeed Scarf Ray?Wanted to share some thoughts on some mons I been having a really fun time abusing / think that are really good:
Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 136 Def / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
Ok, I waited until I got in the 1400s to share this, but I have some fun Zacian sets to share. I started running a 4 Zacian team just for the memes, but the way it performed was far beyond what I expected. Without Species Clause, Zacian is a surprisingly versatile beast that can tank some surprising hits while hitting hard even uninvested. Since this is my first post, someone tell me how to use spoilers and I'll edit those in so this isn't too much a space-taker. Edit: Figured it out.
There's other options for Zacian too, like using Dig and Groundium Z to surprise Pdon (haven't run calcs on this yet), just running Farium Z for a nuke, and so on. Zacian has some supreme offensive utility, and 92/115/115 is very bulky defences in combination with Zac's excellent typing. The only issue is lack of recovery. So TL;DR: experiment with Zacian, it's better than Zazamenza at everything, and Ditto is OP.
Rayquaza-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Extreme Speed
LO 4 attacks Mega Ray because I'm bad lol. EQ is to hit Pdon, which is a natural enemy of Zac spam. That's all the thought that went into this.
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Substitute
SubDance Zac-C acts as a win-con in theory, with the two attacks offering ok neutral coverage. Adamant because opposing Zacs should be dead before you set up, also outruns base Mewtwo by 1 point lol. I don't often find time to get subs off, probably because I'm bad, possibly because it's AG and everything can kill your sub. Should be noted this is the team's best Ditto reply. Hence me losing to 6 Ditto lol.
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform
The MVP. Ditto won me so many games, be it by reversing a Xern sweep or an opposing Zacian. It also makes a great lead against Pdon leads, since Imposter lets you transform before Primal Reversion. You can then get rocks up before Dmaxing out a supereffective Max Quake, while the opposing Pdon can't hit your weaknesses without rare coverage. And there goes a big chunk on the opposing Zac check.
Zacian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Def / 200 Spe
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
- Fire Fang
AV Zacian is a beast. It tanks things it has no right to tank and hits back stupidly hard, even uninvested. Speed EVs creep Jolly Mega Ray. The calcs tell the story best.
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 165-195 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Zacian Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 362-428 (103.1 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can also run 72 speed to creep adamant Ray, which lets it do this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 180 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 271-319 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's a Fairy type so you have to watch out for being trapped by mega gen-oh, never mind...
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Zacian: 224-266 (66 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Zacian Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
The list goes on and on...
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 270-320 (79.6 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (you still lose though because crunch is a 3HKO)
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 258-304 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kyogre-Primal Liquidation vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian in Heavy Rain: 168-198 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Zacian in Heavy Rain: 225-265 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Zacian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Fire Fang
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat
Scarf Zac is a great revenge killer (when those play roughs actually hit lol). Jolly to outrun Ultra Necrozma after a Dragon Dance(!) and OHKO while also outrunning standard Geo Xern (88 speed modest) at +2 by some margin (though it needs a lot of chip to KO it). Basically if something's taken a hit or two, this can kill it.
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang
- Wild Charge
Finally, coverage Zacian. Behemoth Blade OHKOs Xern, ignoring Dmax, while Zac-C has a chance to take a Max Lightning uninvested.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 300-353 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Wild Charge has worked very well, the fangs have been pretty useless tbh. Outside Sun, Behemoth Blade out damages both of them unless the fangs are quad damage. Psychic Fangs and Sacred Sword/CC are better. Fire Fang has some use in Sun or hitting Ferrothorn, but Ice Fang is pretty useless.
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Extreme Speed
LO 4 attacks Mega Ray because I'm bad lol. EQ is to hit Pdon, which is a natural enemy of Zac spam. That's all the thought that went into this.
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Substitute
SubDance Zac-C acts as a win-con in theory, with the two attacks offering ok neutral coverage. Adamant because opposing Zacs should be dead before you set up, also outruns base Mewtwo by 1 point lol. I don't often find time to get subs off, probably because I'm bad, possibly because it's AG and everything can kill your sub. Should be noted this is the team's best Ditto reply. Hence me losing to 6 Ditto lol.
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform
The MVP. Ditto won me so many games, be it by reversing a Xern sweep or an opposing Zacian. It also makes a great lead against Pdon leads, since Imposter lets you transform before Primal Reversion. You can then get rocks up before Dmaxing out a supereffective Max Quake, while the opposing Pdon can't hit your weaknesses without rare coverage. And there goes a big chunk on the opposing Zac check.
Zacian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Def / 200 Spe
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
- Fire Fang
AV Zacian is a beast. It tanks things it has no right to tank and hits back stupidly hard, even uninvested. Speed EVs creep Jolly Mega Ray. The calcs tell the story best.
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 165-195 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Zacian Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 362-428 (103.1 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can also run 72 speed to creep adamant Ray, which lets it do this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 180 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 271-319 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's a Fairy type so you have to watch out for being trapped by mega gen-oh, never mind...
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Zacian: 224-266 (66 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Zacian Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
The list goes on and on...
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 270-320 (79.6 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (you still lose though because crunch is a 3HKO)
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian: 258-304 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kyogre-Primal Liquidation vs. 56 HP / 252+ Def Zacian in Heavy Rain: 168-198 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Zacian in Heavy Rain: 225-265 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Zacian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Fire Fang
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat
Scarf Zac is a great revenge killer (when those play roughs actually hit lol). Jolly to outrun Ultra Necrozma after a Dragon Dance(!) and OHKO while also outrunning standard Geo Xern (88 speed modest) at +2 by some margin (though it needs a lot of chip to KO it). Basically if something's taken a hit or two, this can kill it.
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang
- Wild Charge
Finally, coverage Zacian. Behemoth Blade OHKOs Xern, ignoring Dmax, while Zac-C has a chance to take a Max Lightning uninvested.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 300-353 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Wild Charge has worked very well, the fangs have been pretty useless tbh. Outside Sun, Behemoth Blade out damages both of them unless the fangs are quad damage. Psychic Fangs and Sacred Sword/CC are better. Fire Fang has some use in Sun or hitting Ferrothorn, but Ice Fang is pretty useless.
Last edited:
Why arent Zamazenta & Origin Giratina ranked?
Giratina's only niche is as a bulky wall, which Giratina-O is worse at. Zamazenta is literally worse Zacian in every way, and without species clause Zamaz has no reason to be run on a team if Zacian is legal. See my post above for Zacian Scarf and AV sets that eliminate any niche Zamaz holds. Although I do wonder why Zacian base isn't on there.
Why isn’t Dam- Galar ranked?
That is on you to show that it should be ranked. Also there is a dedicated thread for ranking.
bigtalk
Banned deucer.
Not sure how this post got so long but...
After thinking about it for a while, I would argue that people should stop running Play Rough on this in favor of Behemoth Blade. Blade is more powerful, 100% accurate, and better against Dynamaxed Pokemon, so it seems like it should be the default STAB option unless there's a strong argument in favor of Play Rough.
I'll divide the Pokemon that Play Rough is better against into three categories, and talk about each of them:
Category 1: Blade already does a ton to these Pokemon.
If you're running Jolly, you just need to get rocks up (or get a round or two of Life Orb on Mega Rayquaza) and all of these get OHKOed by Blade anyway. If you're running Adamant, you don't even need chip to guarantee the OHKO on Ultra Necrozma with Blade. Additionally, Zacian has Wild Charge for Yveltal:
Category 2:
So tldr the only compelling reasons I see to run Play Rough > Blade are to hit Zygarde and Giratina, which doesn't seem worth it compared to all these benefits, so Blade should be the default choice. (only advocating this for AG and not Ubers though, since Quagsire is a lot more relevant there)
After thinking about it for a while, I would argue that people should stop running Play Rough on this in favor of Behemoth Blade. Blade is more powerful, 100% accurate, and better against Dynamaxed Pokemon, so it seems like it should be the default STAB option unless there's a strong argument in favor of Play Rough.
I'll divide the Pokemon that Play Rough is better against into three categories, and talk about each of them:
- Offensive Pokemon that are weak to Play Rough and neutral to Blade (Mega Rayquaza, Yveltal, Ultra Necrozma)
- Defensive Pokemon that are weak to Play Rough and neutral to Blade (Zygarde-C, Arceus-Dark, Mega Sableye, Giratina)
- Pokemon that are neutral or weak to Play Rough and resist Blade (Arceus-Water, Primal Kyogre, Zekrom, Quagsire, Reshiram)
Category 1: Blade already does a ton to these Pokemon.
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 298-352 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 313-369 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 307-363 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 328-387 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 343-405 (87.2 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 339-399 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you're running Jolly, you just need to get rocks up (or get a round or two of Life Orb on Mega Rayquaza) and all of these get OHKOed by Blade anyway. If you're running Adamant, you don't even need chip to guarantee the OHKO on Ultra Necrozma with Blade. Additionally, Zacian has Wild Charge for Yveltal:
252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 376-444 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 412-486 (104.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 412-486 (104.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Category 2:
- Admittedly, you're walled by these without Play Rough
(dark)
- You lose the ability to OHKO these, but you still 2HKO them with Blade (and get a free sub on darkceus)
- These already get hit by Wild Charge
- Sure, but no one's going to try and set up with this versus Zacian
- Walls you anyway
- D rank and still takes a nice chunk from Blade
- More powerful/accurate and hits Dynamaxed Pokemon harder, as I mentioned earlier
- Lets you break through defensive Arceus-Ground
- Hits opposing Zacian-C and Mega Gengar much harder
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 192-226 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 190-225 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 211-249 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So tldr the only compelling reasons I see to run Play Rough > Blade are to hit Zygarde and Giratina, which doesn't seem worth it compared to all these benefits, so Blade should be the default choice. (only advocating this for AG and not Ubers though, since Quagsire is a lot more relevant there)
I agree with this, with one caveat: Play Rough is better for making it as hard as possible for Ditto to revenge you.Not sure how this post got so long but...
After thinking about it for a while, I would argue that people should stop running Play Rough on this in favor of Behemoth Blade. Blade is more powerful, 100% accurate, and better against Dynamaxed Pokemon, so it seems like it should be the default STAB option unless there's a strong argument in favor of Play Rough.
I'll divide the Pokemon that Play Rough is better against into three categories, and talk about each of them:
- Offensive Pokemon that are weak to Play Rough and neutral to Blade (Mega Rayquaza, Yveltal, Ultra Necrozma)
- Defensive Pokemon that are weak to Play Rough and neutral to Blade (Zygarde-C, Arceus-Dark, Mega Sableye, Giratina)
- Pokemon that are neutral or weak to Play Rough and resist Blade (Arceus-Water, Primal Kyogre, Zekrom, Quagsire, Reshiram)
Category 1: Blade already does a ton to these Pokemon.
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 298-352 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 313-369 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 307-363 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 328-387 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 343-405 (87.2 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 339-399 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you're running Jolly, you just need to get rocks up (or get a round or two of Life Orb on Mega Rayquaza) and all of these get OHKOed by Blade anyway. If you're running Adamant, you don't even need chip to guarantee the OHKO on Ultra Necrozma with Blade. Additionally, Zacian has Wild Charge for Yveltal:
252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 376-444 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 412-486 (104.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Category 2:
Category 3:
Now let's take a look at the benefits of Blade over Play Rough:
- More powerful/accurate and hits Dynamaxed Pokemon harder, as I mentioned earlier
- Lets you break through defensive Arceus-Ground
- Hits opposing Zacian-C and Mega Gengar much harder
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 192-226 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 190-225 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 211-249 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So tldr the only compelling reasons I see to run Play Rough > Blade are to hit Zygarde and Giratina, which doesn't seem worth it compared to all these benefits, so Blade should be the default choice. (only advocating this for AG and not Ubers though, since Quagsire is a lot more relevant there)
+1 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 397-468 (122.1 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 178-210 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However, with Sacred Sword, it ruins the fun somewhat:
+1 252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 238-281 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Wild Charge is the same calc, but Ditto does 25.1 - 29.6% recoil damage to itself, possibly putting into range of your own Wild Charge:
252 Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned (Ditto): 159-188 (67 - 79.3%) -- 37.5%-68.8% chance to OHKO without rocks, KO with rocks.
So Play Rough makes it harder for Ditto to revenge you. I agree with everything else.
EDIT: Adamant calcs, aside: Adamant is the way to go in general unless you care about speed tieing opposing Jolly Zacs.
+1 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 195-231 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 261-308 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes (so you can only switch into rocks once, which reduces the chance to 6%)
252+ Atk Intrepid Sword Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned (Ditto): 175-206 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after recoil
Last edited:
You are correct with that! However, this is easily migrated with properly predicted Substitutes, and you can always OHKO back with a behemoth blade. Besides, considering that Xerneas + Zacian-C is extremely common together as an offensive core, why use a physical Fairy attacker when you can OHKO Zygarde and Giratina (which isn't common anywhere but on desperate stall) with a special Fairy attacker with their STAB.
Edit:
Here's my Zacian-C set:
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
252 Atk/ 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
Ability: Intrepid Sword
- Substitute
- Behemoth blade
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat
Last edited:
bigtalk
Banned deucer.
Yes, that's true. You shouldn't really rely on that though, because if Zacian gets chipped ie. from hazards or switching into Dragon Ascent, then Ditto can still revenge kill you with Play Rough. So it's still necessary to guard against it by having a team that prevents a single move from reverse sweeping you.
IE: Don't be me with the 4 Zacians lol. It's why I only have BB on one Zac-C.
Edit: Yep you right, I swear it was on the teambuilder before lol. Ah well. Still, Scarf Zac and Ditto make a great revenge killing/reverse sweeping combo.
Last edited:
Regular Zacian doesn't learn Behemoth Blade
bigtalk
Banned deucer.
I wanted to
1. Even though Mega Gengar should behind a Substitute after it successfully traps something with Encore, Ditto's still a problem for it. If the opponent still has a faster Pokemon like Zacian-C around, they just sack it to break the Substitute, then reverse sweep you with Ditto.
2. In addition to bringing in Mega Gengar safely on a status move such as a support arc's Toxic / Recover, you still have to win a risky 50-50 if the opponent hasn't burned their Dynamax yet. (explained below)
3. You can't touch Chansey / Ekiller / Smeargle with just Shadow Ball. (not the main reason for this but something worth pointing out)
First, I'll start off with Substitute / Encore / Perish Song / Disable.
- If the opponent's already burned their Dynamax, this set lets you:
- Guaranteed kill slower Pokemon locked into a bad move, and
- Guaranteed kill slower Pokemon that only have 1 move to hit you with
- If the opponent hasn't used their Dynamax yet, things get a little more complicated. Let's say that you switch Mega Gengar into a support arc as they use a status move. With the Nasty Plot set, you have to get the following 50-50 right in order to kill / force them to burn Dynamax:
- The opponent could try to attack you without Dynamaxing, in which case the best play is to Encore first + use Substitute on the next turn in case they Dynamax to break the Encore lock. This is usually what ends up happening since people tend to be conservative and don't want to waste Dynamax prematurely. However, it's also possible that
- The opponent could predict Encore and attacks you while Dynamaxing immediately to block it, in which case the best play is to use Substitute right away.
- This is a high-risk, high-reward 50-50 since it has severe repercussions if you get it wrong. If you use Encore as they Dynamax and attack you, you lose Mega Gengar; if you use Substitute as they attack you without Dynamaxing, you can't kill / force them to burn Dynamax anymore because you missed the opportunity to Encore them into the status move.
- The Disable set lets you skip this 50-50 for Pokemon that only have 1 move to hit you like Arceus-Dark. In this scenario, the low-risk play is to always click Substitute versus these type of Pokemon. If they choose to attack without Dynamaxing as you do so, you can still kill / force them to use Dynamax by using Disable the next turn, then subbing once again to scout for Dynamax.
- However, with Pokemon that have 2 moves to hit you like Arceus-Ground with Judgment + Ice Beam, you still have to get the 50-50 right otherwise it's a lost opportunity. If you use Substitute as they attack you without Dynamaxing, then they can just keep alternating between these moves afterwards to force you out without burning Dynamax. (They have to keep alternating moves so that you can't Disable + Encore them and force them to Struggle.)
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1042729324 - sub against first turn Dynamax
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1042730720 - sub + disable + sub again to burn Dynamax
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1042731146 - sub + disable + sub + psong for the kill if opponent decides to save Dynamax for something else
- If the opponent's already burned their Dynamax, this set lets you:
- Guaranteed kill slower Pokemon locked into a bad move, without sacrificing Mega Gengar (same as before), and
- Guaranteed kill any slower Pokemon*, with the caveat that you may need to sacrifice Mega Gengar
- I'll explain how this works. Basically, you keep clicking Substitute until all of their attacking moves kill Mega Gengar, then you click Destiny Bond. If they attack you, they die. If they don't attack you because they predict Destiny Bond and use a status move like Calm Mind / Recover / etc, you Encore them into that then use Perish Song. Meaning they still die, but you get to keep Mega Gengar.
- * This doesn't work against phazers or if the opponent misses their move
- If the opponent hasn't used their Dynamax yet, then using Substitute is also a low-risk play with this set in the 50-50 scenario I presented earlier, depending on how much you value Mega Gengar. You don't lose the opportunity to kill the support arc because you still have Destiny Bond, but you have to trade Mega Gengar now, whereas you wouldn't have to if you'd locked them into the status move. It's also worth noting that avoiding the 50-50 applies to any slower Pokemon now, not just ones with 1 move to hit Mega Gengar.
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1042723689 - forcing trade with dd mray
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1042725984 - forcing trade with 2 attacks groundceus
edit: yup, this is good. I'm liking the second set more so far, as it's more flexible and usually forcing a trade is more valuable than trying to preserve Mega Gengar.
Last edited:
Depends if Dragon Ascent was/stays Dexited. If so, np, if not there are two consistent options IMO:
1.Have both Dynamax AND Mega Evolution available for use in battle, but lock out one if the other is used (Obviously don't allow both to be used in the same battle).
Issue: Allows far too much flexibility to Ray, not actually something that would be possible with our current mechanics.
2. Force players to commit to one or the other in the teambuilder, teams already get the option to select either Ray or Mega Ray, and rn they are basically the same thing.
Issue: This would be hard to inform players about in the teambuilder.
The last resort is just to ban Ray Dmaxing. But that is a last-resort only I think.
- Status