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Middle Cup ORAS
- Thread starter Mazz
- Start date
I meant unbanning yes. It's not being allowed.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Ok decided to update the VR with these changes:
Servine to B- (Is likely to go even lower, but Glare is a cool tool for it that might keep it relevant)
Frogadier added to A- (Really nice offensive mon with a lot of power and coverage, struggles to get through walls and Electabuzz can revenge non-Scarf variants)
Monferno to A+ (Basically Combusken's replacement, doesn't have Speed Boost, but it still has a lot of versatility and power in it's many sets, including LO, Scarf, Band, SD and Nasty Plot, etc.)
Duosion to A- (Kadabra leaving made this thing a lot better)
Vigoroth to B (I've been testing out a Bulk Up set, and while it is pretty good, Vigoroth still lacks the bulk to set up Substitutes against mons like Roselia and Porygon2, and offensive sets can lack power and coverage)
Braixen to B- (Not as improved as Monferno from Combusken's ban, but it's become a really nice special attacking Fire type and can actually beat Monferno with Psychic coverage.)
Discussion Points:
Kirlia to B (Improved since Kadabra's ban, has some neat tools in moves like Calm Mind and Destiny Bond as well as having Fairy STAB, but suffers from a lack of bulk, power, and Speed, having to run either Life Orb or Choice Scarf to gain and sacrifice a stat.)
Gothorita to A (Improved since Kadabra's ban, and Shadow Tag rips through defensive and balanced teams.)
Frogadier to A (We already know, high speed and power, does have some flaws, but I just think it's a lot better than A-.)
Piloswine to A- (Has anyone ever used this thing? I have never seen one, and honestly it doesn't seem too much better to use over Rhydon since it lacks Flying resist, and it's slow as well. But, having Ice STAB and priority helps it check stuff like Fraxure, so it might not deserve a drop.)
Overall, I've been loving this new meta, as it helps give some underused mons like Kirlia and Monferno a chance to shine again with their competitors banned, and a new addition in Frogadier also helps add diversity to the metagame, which is one of my favorite parts of Middle Cup, the diversity! I hope this metagame goes well, there isn't any "broken" mons that I can really see, which is awesome, we might reach a stable meta! Keep up the good work Middle Cup players!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/middle-cup-oras.3524287/page-3 Page with the updated Viability Rankings, unfixable could you use this VR in the 2nd post, as the 2nd post VR lists mons like Combusken.
Servine to B- (Is likely to go even lower, but Glare is a cool tool for it that might keep it relevant)
Frogadier added to A- (Really nice offensive mon with a lot of power and coverage, struggles to get through walls and Electabuzz can revenge non-Scarf variants)
Monferno to A+ (Basically Combusken's replacement, doesn't have Speed Boost, but it still has a lot of versatility and power in it's many sets, including LO, Scarf, Band, SD and Nasty Plot, etc.)
Duosion to A- (Kadabra leaving made this thing a lot better)
Vigoroth to B (I've been testing out a Bulk Up set, and while it is pretty good, Vigoroth still lacks the bulk to set up Substitutes against mons like Roselia and Porygon2, and offensive sets can lack power and coverage)
Braixen to B- (Not as improved as Monferno from Combusken's ban, but it's become a really nice special attacking Fire type and can actually beat Monferno with Psychic coverage.)
Discussion Points:
Kirlia to B (Improved since Kadabra's ban, has some neat tools in moves like Calm Mind and Destiny Bond as well as having Fairy STAB, but suffers from a lack of bulk, power, and Speed, having to run either Life Orb or Choice Scarf to gain and sacrifice a stat.)
Gothorita to A (Improved since Kadabra's ban, and Shadow Tag rips through defensive and balanced teams.)
Frogadier to A (We already know, high speed and power, does have some flaws, but I just think it's a lot better than A-.)
Piloswine to A- (Has anyone ever used this thing? I have never seen one, and honestly it doesn't seem too much better to use over Rhydon since it lacks Flying resist, and it's slow as well. But, having Ice STAB and priority helps it check stuff like Fraxure, so it might not deserve a drop.)
Overall, I've been loving this new meta, as it helps give some underused mons like Kirlia and Monferno a chance to shine again with their competitors banned, and a new addition in Frogadier also helps add diversity to the metagame, which is one of my favorite parts of Middle Cup, the diversity! I hope this metagame goes well, there isn't any "broken" mons that I can really see, which is awesome, we might reach a stable meta! Keep up the good work Middle Cup players!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/middle-cup-oras.3524287/page-3 Page with the updated Viability Rankings, unfixable could you use this VR in the 2nd post, as the 2nd post VR lists mons like Combusken.
Threw
cohiba
Let's talk about the elephant in the room: Dusclops.
This thing is sitting pretty at A+ (A-plus) despite having, according to a couple of reliable sources, somewhere around zero usage in MC games thus far. It's objectively just a poor Pokemon. Its bulk is great until you see that 40 HP (3HKOed by Electabuzz isn't awful, but it's nothing all that special either, especially since it doesn't hit back effectively at all), it has less than zero offensive potential, and even if it wasn't so bad, the real reason it has absolutely no usage in MC is the fact that the only playstyle you might want to use it in is stall, which is, as we all know, completely non-viable in MC. I'm not set on any rank in particular, but please at the very least drop this thing to the low B ranks.
Also, it's funny you mentioned Piloswine because I was about to build with it and see what's up. Very good looking Electabuzz check that doesn't require priority/prior chip damage (can even counter if it's not Specs Electabuzz), but that's only on paper, hopefully I'll have more illuminating things to say after I've taken a closer look.
This thing is sitting pretty at A+ (A-plus) despite having, according to a couple of reliable sources, somewhere around zero usage in MC games thus far. It's objectively just a poor Pokemon. Its bulk is great until you see that 40 HP (3HKOed by Electabuzz isn't awful, but it's nothing all that special either, especially since it doesn't hit back effectively at all), it has less than zero offensive potential, and even if it wasn't so bad, the real reason it has absolutely no usage in MC is the fact that the only playstyle you might want to use it in is stall, which is, as we all know, completely non-viable in MC. I'm not set on any rank in particular, but please at the very least drop this thing to the low B ranks.
Also, it's funny you mentioned Piloswine because I was about to build with it and see what's up. Very good looking Electabuzz check that doesn't require priority/prior chip damage (can even counter if it's not Specs Electabuzz), but that's only on paper, hopefully I'll have more illuminating things to say after I've taken a closer look.
seven rings (Sliggoo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
Ahh I love this thing! Sliggoo is actually super awesome. I'm sure there's a more optimal EV spread out there, but I'm just running simple 252/252+ since it actually doesn't care about... well... any special attack. Here a cool calc:
252 SpA Life Orb Kirlia Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sliggoo: 78-94 (44.5 - 53.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sliggoo takes on like every special attacker and sets up in their face. Also has perfect synergy with Rhydon! Super interesting Pokemon~
I need someone to explain this new Kirlia fad to me. This thing has abhorrent stats compared to something like Togetic or Haunter. I can sort of understand the entire "Kadabra's gone" excuse, but I'd have thought Duosion would have gotten the nod to rise. All it needs is Thunder Wave support to be really good, whereas Kirlia needs a Choice item or Calm Mind to even consider being effective.
Since Kadabra's been banned, I've found something rather cool to use on my teams in place of our spooned friend.
Haunter @ Leftovers
Levitate
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Disable
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
SubDisable Gengar was always really cool to see used in DPP OU and BW OU, and Mega-Gengar took advantage of the strategy in early XY OU as well. The goal with this set is relatively straight forward - get a Substitute up, use Disable on the move your opponent chose to break your Substitute, thus either forcing them out, or enabling you to pick on them a bit more. I've considered running Will-O-Wisp in the 4th slot, I rarely click Dazzling Gleam. Should you ever need it however, it's an excellent option against Gurdurr and Krookodile, providing excellent, reliable coverage alongside STAB Shadow Ball. Something else worth considering: if you're planning on running Will-O-Wisp, run Hex as well. You absolutely must burn the opponent, either directly or on the switch-in, but you're now capable of hitting harder than Shadow Ball.
Be warned though - Haunter falls into the same "glass cannon" category that Kadabra fell into. Don't expect it to take any hits particularly well, regardless if the for is burnt or not.
Since Kadabra's been banned, I've found something rather cool to use on my teams in place of our spooned friend.
Haunter @ Leftovers
Levitate
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Disable
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
SubDisable Gengar was always really cool to see used in DPP OU and BW OU, and Mega-Gengar took advantage of the strategy in early XY OU as well. The goal with this set is relatively straight forward - get a Substitute up, use Disable on the move your opponent chose to break your Substitute, thus either forcing them out, or enabling you to pick on them a bit more. I've considered running Will-O-Wisp in the 4th slot, I rarely click Dazzling Gleam. Should you ever need it however, it's an excellent option against Gurdurr and Krookodile, providing excellent, reliable coverage alongside STAB Shadow Ball. Something else worth considering: if you're planning on running Will-O-Wisp, run Hex as well. You absolutely must burn the opponent, either directly or on the switch-in, but you're now capable of hitting harder than Shadow Ball.
Be warned though - Haunter falls into the same "glass cannon" category that Kadabra fell into. Don't expect it to take any hits particularly well, regardless if the for is burnt or not.
I noticed a gimmick that Servine might be able to use:
Servine @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Timid Nature
- Protect / Giga Drain
- Mean Look
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
Substitute, then trap them with Mean Look, Protect whenever necessary, and set up Leech Seed for all their life and they can't switch! If you get down to 25% HP and are running GDrain, heal with your boosted attack! I think that this really isn't that much of an argument but I tried it in and it works fairly well, I think that all of its possible sets are too good to drop to C-.
Servine @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Timid Nature
- Protect / Giga Drain
- Mean Look
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
Substitute, then trap them with Mean Look, Protect whenever necessary, and set up Leech Seed for all their life and they can't switch! If you get down to 25% HP and are running GDrain, heal with your boosted attack! I think that this really isn't that much of an argument but I tried it in and it works fairly well, I think that all of its possible sets are too good to drop to C-.
EV
Banned deucer.
What are you gonna do to Kirlia tho?
seven rings (Sliggoo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
Ahh I love this thing! Sliggoo is actually super awesome. I'm sure there's a more optimal EV spread out there, but I'm just running simple 252/252+ since it actually doesn't care about... well... any special attack. Here a cool calc:
252 SpA Life Orb Kirlia Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sliggoo: 78-94 (44.5 - 53.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sliggoo takes on like every special attacker and sets up in their face. Also has perfect synergy with Rhydon! Super interesting Pokemon~
nothing, it's just a calc, eevee e_e.
besides, i kinda agree with mazz. kirlia is ohkoed by like... literally everything. and it's slow.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
I'm gonna try and put in my support for creating Servine sets to keep it relevant.
Servine @ Life Orb / Miracle Seed
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Glare
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Fire
- Knock Off / Taunt / Calm Mind
Servine isn't very good without Contrary, but with a great move in Glare and okay-ish attacking stats, it can still pull off an offensive set with Glare. Glare cripples anything basically, allowing Servine to outspeed them and attack them, and also support slower teammates like Loudred. Giga Drain is a reliable STAB move that also heals HP, but it is pretty weak. The decision between Hidden Power varies between your team basically; Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon types and Flying types not named Fletchinder, HP Rock hits Fletch and other Flyers, and HP Fire hits Steel types like Metang. The fourth move is basically a utility move, Knock Off cripples mons by removing their item, Taunt shuts down walls, and Calm Mind is Servine's only set-up move other than Swords Dance, so it can be a decent late-game sweeper sometimes. Sadly, Servine is still easily checked and is mostly outclassed by the other Grass-types of Middle Cup, such as Roselia and Grovyle, but it can still find a niche in it's decent movepool including gems such as Mean Look, Glare, and Knock Off.
Also yeah Kirlia sort of sucks but it's faster than Duosion and has a Fairy typing over Gothorita, it could rise but honestly I think it's fine at B- now.
Servine @ Life Orb / Miracle Seed
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Glare
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Fire
- Knock Off / Taunt / Calm Mind
Servine isn't very good without Contrary, but with a great move in Glare and okay-ish attacking stats, it can still pull off an offensive set with Glare. Glare cripples anything basically, allowing Servine to outspeed them and attack them, and also support slower teammates like Loudred. Giga Drain is a reliable STAB move that also heals HP, but it is pretty weak. The decision between Hidden Power varies between your team basically; Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon types and Flying types not named Fletchinder, HP Rock hits Fletch and other Flyers, and HP Fire hits Steel types like Metang. The fourth move is basically a utility move, Knock Off cripples mons by removing their item, Taunt shuts down walls, and Calm Mind is Servine's only set-up move other than Swords Dance, so it can be a decent late-game sweeper sometimes. Sadly, Servine is still easily checked and is mostly outclassed by the other Grass-types of Middle Cup, such as Roselia and Grovyle, but it can still find a niche in it's decent movepool including gems such as Mean Look, Glare, and Knock Off.
Also yeah Kirlia sort of sucks but it's faster than Duosion and has a Fairy typing over Gothorita, it could rise but honestly I think it's fine at B- now.
Nominating Dragonair for B+
This thing even with mediocre stats is a decent Dragon Dance user: it's somewhat poor attack and speed hain boosts, and it's defenses are ok even without Eviolite.
Dragonair @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
While it completely dies to fairies, Dragon Dance allows it to use its bulk to set up enough to become a strong attacker, and then it can proceed to destroy with Outrage. While Outrage has the downsides of locking and confusion, if Sleep Talk picks it at least it does not lock. Rest allows Dragonair to heal, stop status, and importantly, activate Marvel Scale which greatly boosts its tankiness when it is asleep. Sleep Talk simply allows it to do something while it's snoozing.
This thing even with mediocre stats is a decent Dragon Dance user: it's somewhat poor attack and speed hain boosts, and it's defenses are ok even without Eviolite.
Dragonair @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
While it completely dies to fairies, Dragon Dance allows it to use its bulk to set up enough to become a strong attacker, and then it can proceed to destroy with Outrage. While Outrage has the downsides of locking and confusion, if Sleep Talk picks it at least it does not lock. Rest allows Dragonair to heal, stop status, and importantly, activate Marvel Scale which greatly boosts its tankiness when it is asleep. Sleep Talk simply allows it to do something while it's snoozing.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
I can definitely agree with a Dragonair rise. While being slightly overshadowed by Fraxure, it's still a perfectly good DD sweeper when defensive or even with an offensive DD set, like this one below:
Dragonair @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Blast / Iron Tail
This set uses some of Dragonair's key aspects over Fraxure, mainly it's ability to roast Doublade with Fire Blast, and priority in Extreme Speed, to full effect. Dragonair also has Shed Skin so status can't kill it, while Fraxure sometimes has to run Lum Berry to not get screwed by Scald burns. Iron Tail is an option over Fire Blast, as it can 2HKO Fairy types, but the ability to fuck Doublade over is more useful imo. Overall a really cool and underrated sweeper, can definitely earn B+.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togetic: 133-159 (82.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Dragonair Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Doublade: 140-166 (85.3 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Dragonair Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Doublade: 140-166 (85.3 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Extreme Speed is definitely a major niche for Dragonair imo. Good role compression to have a strong priority user and a Dragon Dance sweeper in one slot. I guess it's also worth mentioning Aqua Tail/Waterfall on it since it is really effective against Rhydon and Lairon and hits Steels for neutral damage, though Fire Blast and Iron Tail probably hit more worthwhile targets. I also like Dragon Rush over Outrage on it since it doesn't have the lock and confusion, but that's up to preference since accuracy is an issue there.
I can definitely agree with a Dragonair rise. While being slightly overshadowed by Fraxure, it's still a perfectly good DD sweeper when defensive or even with an offensive DD set, like this one below:
Dragonair @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Blast / Iron Tail
This set uses some of Dragonair's key aspects over Fraxure, mainly it's ability to roast Doublade with Fire Blast, and priority in Extreme Speed, to full effect. Dragonair also has Shed Skin so status can't kill it, while Fraxure sometimes has to run Lum Berry to not get screwed by Scald burns. Iron Tail is an option over Fire Blast, as it can 2HKO Fairy types, but the ability to fuck Doublade over is more useful imo. Overall a really cool and underrated sweeper, can definitely earn B+.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togetic: 133-159 (82.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Dragonair Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Doublade: 140-166 (85.3 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
I think that people need to give Piloswine a shot it is an excellent wall breaker with choice band and has powerful STAB + priority to boot.
Piloswine @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
This set is pretty freaking amazing. EQ shreds apart so much, it even OHKOs Dancing Rhydon and Ice Shard does around 45% which is really useful as a last ditch way of getting rid of weakened Rhydon. Icicle Crash is great for smacking Flying-types that might want to switch into EQ. Superpower is filler and doesn't pick up any notable KOs and EQ is almost always going to be the better option. There isn't a whole lot to say about this set in particular, it's just a really powerful attacker. However, I thought of another set:
Piloswine @ Earth Plate/Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Icy Wind
Almost the same as the last set except this set fakes CB and uses Icy Wind to slow down switch ins and will just be annoying in general. While yes, the opponent can just switch out again Icy Wind makes it extremely easy to make doubles and grab momentum. This set is just a theory set but I think that it would work well especially on things that like to abuse Choice Locked Pokemon. If for example you EQ a protect, chances are they will switch into a Flying-type, so you can either Icicle Crash or Icy Wind. Overall, Piloswine forces switches very easily allowing it to abuse a lot of Pokemon. Easily A and shouldn't drop.
Piloswine @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
This set is pretty freaking amazing. EQ shreds apart so much, it even OHKOs Dancing Rhydon and Ice Shard does around 45% which is really useful as a last ditch way of getting rid of weakened Rhydon. Icicle Crash is great for smacking Flying-types that might want to switch into EQ. Superpower is filler and doesn't pick up any notable KOs and EQ is almost always going to be the better option. There isn't a whole lot to say about this set in particular, it's just a really powerful attacker. However, I thought of another set:
Piloswine @ Earth Plate/Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Icy Wind
Almost the same as the last set except this set fakes CB and uses Icy Wind to slow down switch ins and will just be annoying in general. While yes, the opponent can just switch out again Icy Wind makes it extremely easy to make doubles and grab momentum. This set is just a theory set but I think that it would work well especially on things that like to abuse Choice Locked Pokemon. If for example you EQ a protect, chances are they will switch into a Flying-type, so you can either Icicle Crash or Icy Wind. Overall, Piloswine forces switches very easily allowing it to abuse a lot of Pokemon. Easily A and shouldn't drop.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
As a new topic for you all to discuss, how about combining D and E rank into one rank, while removing the cocoons entirely from the VR? I was thinking of having the D rank be like RU's D rank: the worst of the worst, but not as bad as the cocoons of course, lol. I was also thinking if we do this, we could move up some of the D ranks that have a small, but bigger niche than the other D rankers, to C-. (Basically I want to move Quilava up). I thought of this because after looking at the VR, I decided that E rank wasn't too necessary. What are y'all's opinion on this?
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
I wouldn't put the whole D rank at C-, stuff like Flaaffy and Tranquill don't really have notable niches that put them above their fellow D mons, they're just better than the cocoons basically
I think it makes sense to combine D and E, the cocoons are useless and have virtually no niche. While on the note about Quilava, I don't see a reason to move it up to anything higher than C-, it is almost completely outclassed by Charmeleon except for Flash Fire and Eruption. Otherwise Charmeleon has arguably a much better movepool.
I advocated this earlier in the thread, so I'm all for it. save jigglypuff
I was going to make a Speed Tier chart so I organized all the legal Pokemon (except E rank) in a list by Base Speed to start. However, after doing so I realized Threw already made a fairly comprehensive list a few pages back. I recommend you add it to the OP, unfixable, so its easier for people to find.
However, that list is kind of overwhelming when I'm not sure if anyone can really define what the generally ideal benchmarks in this meta like they can with OU, so I'm going to attempt to do just that. Using the list I compiled, I'll talk more broadly about ideal Speed benchmarks in the meta without going too in-depth on individual Speed tiers. Here are all the legal Pokemon in order of Base Speed:
As I see it, Base 80 is the go-to "fast enough" benchmark in this meta on par with base 100 in OU, while Base 90 is the "really fast" benchmark that's most similar to base 110-115+ in OU. If you're 90+, you're in the top 10 fastest in the meta, and I figure that every good offensive team should have at least one of these Pokemon. Here are the Speed stats for those benchmarks, along with the upper bracket of the unboosted speed tiers (Electabuzz). "Max" means 252 investment with a Positive nature.
Base 80 Max Speed = 145
Base 90 Max Speed = 156
Electabuzz Max Speed = 172
Given those values, we can find the minimum Speed stats to beat those benchmarks using Choice Scarf or Dragon Dance/Flame Charge (+1). The three numbers for each benchmark are the total Speed stat and the minimum Base stats for a Positive nature (ex: Jolly) and a Neutral nature (ex: Adamant).
Speed needed to outspeed Base 80 at +1 = 94 (Base 34 Positive, Base 42 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Base 90 at + 1 = 105 (Base 44 Positive, Base 53 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Electabuzz at +1 = 116 (Base 54 Positive, Base 64 Neutral)
These numbers reveal a lot. Only 3 Pokemon fail to pass Base 34 Speed, so nearly everything can beat Max Speed Base 80's using Choice Scarf or an appropriate boost move. Everything as fast as Swadloon and faster doesn't even need to run a positive nature to hit this mark. Entering the Base 90 bracket is slightly trickier but not by much: even something as slow as Flaaffy can reach the benchmark at +1, and Pokemon like Lampent can manage it while running Modest, etc. What's more, if Pokemon in Lampent's Speed tier (Base 55) and above decide to run a Positive nature, they outspeed the entire unboosted meta, including Electabuzz. Everything in Nidorino's tier (Base 65) and faster can forgo a positive nature and still accomplish this.
There are also abilities (Chlorophyll) and moves (Rock Polish) that double Speed, so here are the minimum stats needed to beat the same benchmarks.
Speed needed to outspeed Base 80 at +2 = 73 (Base 15 Positive, Base 21 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Base 90 at + 2 = 79 (Base 20 Positive, Base 27 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Electabuzz at +2 = 87 (Base 28 Positive, Base 35 Neutral)
Obviously, the bar is set pretty low here. Even Boldore at its blazing Base 20 can enter the Base 80 AND Base 90 bracket with Jolly Rock Polish. Nothing really fits the criteria to enter those brackets with a Neutral nature or Electabuzz's bracket with a Positive nature, so we'll discount those. However, everything Base 35 and up only needs a Neutral nature to outspeed the entire unboosted meta, so Adamant Rock Polish Graveler and Adamant Automatize Doublade (and anything faster) only have to worry about opposing Choice Scarf users.
Obviously, there are additional benchmarks one must consider once you step outside the unboosted metagame (Jolly DD Fraxure at +1, Unburden Grovyle), but I think this is a good start in defining where exactly you should aim for when investing in Speed without looking at every possible individual Speed stat.
However, that list is kind of overwhelming when I'm not sure if anyone can really define what the generally ideal benchmarks in this meta like they can with OU, so I'm going to attempt to do just that. Using the list I compiled, I'll talk more broadly about ideal Speed benchmarks in the meta without going too in-depth on individual Speed tiers. Here are all the legal Pokemon in order of Base Speed:
105 Electabuzz
97 Frogadier
95 Haunter
95 Grovyle
93 Magmar
90 Golbat
90 Vigoroth
90 Pikachu
90 Poliwhirl
85 Seadra
84 Fletchinder
83 Servine
82 Gabite
81 Monferno
80 Staravia
80 Skiploom
80 Charmeleon
80 Quilava
74 Krokorok
73 Braixen
71 Pidgeotto
70 Vibrava
70 Dragonair
69 Palpitoad
67 Fraxure
65 Roselia
65 Nidorino
65 Tranquill
60 Porygon2
60 Sliggoo
60 Ivysaur
60 Herdier
60 Luxio
60 Nuzleaf
60 Dewott
60 Bayleef
59 Vanillish
58 Croconaw
58 Wartortle
57 Quilladin
56 Nidorina
55 Gothorita
55 Lampent
55 Pignite
55 Weepinbell
52 Floette
51 Pupitar
50 Piloswine
50 Prinplup
50 Zweilous
50 Marshtomp
50 Metang
50 Lombre
50 Klang
50 Kirlia
50 Shelgon
48 Loudred
47 Whirlipede
45 Sealeo
45 Machoke
45 Flaaffy
42 Swadloon
40 Gurdurr
40 Rhydon
40 Togetic
40 Eelektrik
40 Gloom
40 Lairon
40 Marill
36 Grotle
35 Doublade
35 Clefairy
35 Graveler
30 Duosion
25 Dusclops
20 Boldore
97 Frogadier
95 Haunter
95 Grovyle
93 Magmar
90 Golbat
90 Vigoroth
90 Pikachu
90 Poliwhirl
85 Seadra
84 Fletchinder
83 Servine
82 Gabite
81 Monferno
80 Staravia
80 Skiploom
80 Charmeleon
80 Quilava
74 Krokorok
73 Braixen
71 Pidgeotto
70 Vibrava
70 Dragonair
69 Palpitoad
67 Fraxure
65 Roselia
65 Nidorino
65 Tranquill
60 Porygon2
60 Sliggoo
60 Ivysaur
60 Herdier
60 Luxio
60 Nuzleaf
60 Dewott
60 Bayleef
59 Vanillish
58 Croconaw
58 Wartortle
57 Quilladin
56 Nidorina
55 Gothorita
55 Lampent
55 Pignite
55 Weepinbell
52 Floette
51 Pupitar
50 Piloswine
50 Prinplup
50 Zweilous
50 Marshtomp
50 Metang
50 Lombre
50 Klang
50 Kirlia
50 Shelgon
48 Loudred
47 Whirlipede
45 Sealeo
45 Machoke
45 Flaaffy
42 Swadloon
40 Gurdurr
40 Rhydon
40 Togetic
40 Eelektrik
40 Gloom
40 Lairon
40 Marill
36 Grotle
35 Doublade
35 Clefairy
35 Graveler
30 Duosion
25 Dusclops
20 Boldore
Base 80 Max Speed = 145
Base 90 Max Speed = 156
Electabuzz Max Speed = 172
Given those values, we can find the minimum Speed stats to beat those benchmarks using Choice Scarf or Dragon Dance/Flame Charge (+1). The three numbers for each benchmark are the total Speed stat and the minimum Base stats for a Positive nature (ex: Jolly) and a Neutral nature (ex: Adamant).
Speed needed to outspeed Base 80 at +1 = 94 (Base 34 Positive, Base 42 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Base 90 at + 1 = 105 (Base 44 Positive, Base 53 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Electabuzz at +1 = 116 (Base 54 Positive, Base 64 Neutral)
These numbers reveal a lot. Only 3 Pokemon fail to pass Base 34 Speed, so nearly everything can beat Max Speed Base 80's using Choice Scarf or an appropriate boost move. Everything as fast as Swadloon and faster doesn't even need to run a positive nature to hit this mark. Entering the Base 90 bracket is slightly trickier but not by much: even something as slow as Flaaffy can reach the benchmark at +1, and Pokemon like Lampent can manage it while running Modest, etc. What's more, if Pokemon in Lampent's Speed tier (Base 55) and above decide to run a Positive nature, they outspeed the entire unboosted meta, including Electabuzz. Everything in Nidorino's tier (Base 65) and faster can forgo a positive nature and still accomplish this.
There are also abilities (Chlorophyll) and moves (Rock Polish) that double Speed, so here are the minimum stats needed to beat the same benchmarks.
Speed needed to outspeed Base 80 at +2 = 73 (Base 15 Positive, Base 21 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Base 90 at + 2 = 79 (Base 20 Positive, Base 27 Neutral)
Speed needed to outspeed Electabuzz at +2 = 87 (Base 28 Positive, Base 35 Neutral)
Obviously, the bar is set pretty low here. Even Boldore at its blazing Base 20 can enter the Base 80 AND Base 90 bracket with Jolly Rock Polish. Nothing really fits the criteria to enter those brackets with a Neutral nature or Electabuzz's bracket with a Positive nature, so we'll discount those. However, everything Base 35 and up only needs a Neutral nature to outspeed the entire unboosted meta, so Adamant Rock Polish Graveler and Adamant Automatize Doublade (and anything faster) only have to worry about opposing Choice Scarf users.
Obviously, there are additional benchmarks one must consider once you step outside the unboosted metagame (Jolly DD Fraxure at +1, Unburden Grovyle), but I think this is a good start in defining where exactly you should aim for when investing in Speed without looking at every possible individual Speed stat.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Ok time for a VR update n_n
Rises:
Frogadier to A (A- was seriously underestimating Frogadier's power and speed, and it's the best offensive Water in the tier as well.)
Gothorita to A (The bane of defensive and balanced teams, as it basically can beat every defensive mon in the tier, and is still decent against offense by trapping stuff or with a Choice Scarf. Sadly doesn't have that much power tho)
Quilava to C- (Was the only D rank I thought was actually good enough to move up when I merged D and E together.)
Graveler to C (Suprisingly decent SR lead that fares well against other leads like Whirlipede due to typing and access to Rock Blast, can sacrifice itself for another teammate to come in thanks to Explosion, and is just better than it's C- bretheren, justifying a rise to C.)
Dragonair to B+ (As stated earlier, has a good niche over other Dragons like Fraxure due to it's unique moves like Fire Blast and Extreme Speed, and can run an okay defensive DD set as well.)
Drops:
Kirlia to C+ (While it was a discussion point to move up, it was basically the "OFFENSIVE PSYCHIC TYPE" hype left after Kadabra was banned, and it's pretty poor in practice due to it's abysmal stat distribution, and aside from Fairy-typing and being faster than Duosion, there's not much of a reason to use it over Duosion or Gothorita.)
And that's it! Through some battles, I learned that Piloswine is SUPER hard to switch into, and definitely deserves it's A rank. Some discussion points I want to add are Electabuzz to S (It really defines the meta imo, the highest speed tier and decent power make it super splashable on a bunch of builds), Shelgon to C+ or lower (What niche does this have?), and mostly just discussion on some of the lower tiered mons like Nidorina and Loudred, because I want to see your opinions about them and what their niches are in the meta. Good work Middle Cup players!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/middle-cup-oras.3524287/page-3 Link to updated VR
Rises:
Frogadier to A (A- was seriously underestimating Frogadier's power and speed, and it's the best offensive Water in the tier as well.)
Gothorita to A (The bane of defensive and balanced teams, as it basically can beat every defensive mon in the tier, and is still decent against offense by trapping stuff or with a Choice Scarf. Sadly doesn't have that much power tho)
Quilava to C- (Was the only D rank I thought was actually good enough to move up when I merged D and E together.)
Graveler to C (Suprisingly decent SR lead that fares well against other leads like Whirlipede due to typing and access to Rock Blast, can sacrifice itself for another teammate to come in thanks to Explosion, and is just better than it's C- bretheren, justifying a rise to C.)
Dragonair to B+ (As stated earlier, has a good niche over other Dragons like Fraxure due to it's unique moves like Fire Blast and Extreme Speed, and can run an okay defensive DD set as well.)
Drops:
Kirlia to C+ (While it was a discussion point to move up, it was basically the "OFFENSIVE PSYCHIC TYPE" hype left after Kadabra was banned, and it's pretty poor in practice due to it's abysmal stat distribution, and aside from Fairy-typing and being faster than Duosion, there's not much of a reason to use it over Duosion or Gothorita.)
And that's it! Through some battles, I learned that Piloswine is SUPER hard to switch into, and definitely deserves it's A rank. Some discussion points I want to add are Electabuzz to S (It really defines the meta imo, the highest speed tier and decent power make it super splashable on a bunch of builds), Shelgon to C+ or lower (What niche does this have?), and mostly just discussion on some of the lower tiered mons like Nidorina and Loudred, because I want to see your opinions about them and what their niches are in the meta. Good work Middle Cup players!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/middle-cup-oras.3524287/page-3 Link to updated VR
So, Electabuzz. I think that this thing definitely has the room to move to S, there is no longer Sash Kadabra being the most splashable one time check to a lot of fast mons that drop to such a high Sp.Atk. And now Electabuzz is the only mon with 105 Spe which is very nice. It also has a good base Atk at 83 and a great base 95 Sp.Atk. And it's bulk isn't half bad with 65/57/85 defenses Electabuzz can definitely stomach at least one hit that you might need it to. Finally, Electabuzz has a wide range of moves to use both on the physical and special side as well as a nice ability in Vital Spirit which allows it to switch into Sleep Powder.
Electabuzz @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty/Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch/Fire Punch/Thunder Wave
Electabuzz makes great use of Expert Belt. Because Electabuzz has very nice coverage it can hit plenty of things super effectively with only a few Pokemon not taking Super Effective damage from its coverage; Lombre and Fighting-types to name a few. However, Electabuzz does get Psychic so if for instance a team needs Elecatabuzz to run Psychic over Volt Switch don't be surprised when their Electabuzz Psychics your Gurdurr. Electabuzz also gets Signal Beam to hit Psychics and a few Grass-types. However, Fire Punch is better overall because most Grass-types that you will see are Grass-, Poison-types. Focus Blast is for the omnipresent Porygon2. Use Hasty if you run Fire Punch so you keep your attack at a nice level.
Electabuzz @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty/Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch/Fire Punch/Thunder Wave
Electabuzz makes great use of Expert Belt. Because Electabuzz has very nice coverage it can hit plenty of things super effectively with only a few Pokemon not taking Super Effective damage from its coverage; Lombre and Fighting-types to name a few. However, Electabuzz does get Psychic so if for instance a team needs Elecatabuzz to run Psychic over Volt Switch don't be surprised when their Electabuzz Psychics your Gurdurr. Electabuzz also gets Signal Beam to hit Psychics and a few Grass-types. However, Fire Punch is better overall because most Grass-types that you will see are Grass-, Poison-types. Focus Blast is for the omnipresent Porygon2. Use Hasty if you run Fire Punch so you keep your attack at a nice level.
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 98-118 (51 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Expert Belt Electabuzz Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Roselia: 108-130 (68.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gloom: 125-149 (74.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rhydon: 245-293 (135.3 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Doublade: 67-81 (40.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Doublade tanks so ez fire punch actually does less)
0 Atk Expert Belt Electabuzz Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sliggoo: 96-115 (54.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you can even bring ice punch for sliggoo and still be able to hit roselia)
248 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefairy: 88-105 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gurdurr: 106-126 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togetic: 144-173 (88.8 - 106.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togetic: 103-125 (63.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Expert Belt Electabuzz Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Roselia: 108-130 (68.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gloom: 125-149 (74.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rhydon: 245-293 (135.3 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Doublade: 67-81 (40.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Doublade tanks so ez fire punch actually does less)
0 Atk Expert Belt Electabuzz Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sliggoo: 96-115 (54.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you can even bring ice punch for sliggoo and still be able to hit roselia)
248 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefairy: 88-105 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gurdurr: 106-126 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togetic: 144-173 (88.8 - 106.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
248 SpA Expert Belt Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togetic: 103-125 (63.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ah my bad. I hadn't noticed that I had been given the first two posts yet. Sorry for being so inactive, it's been an odd couple of weeks, with midterms and holidays galore. I've gone ahead and made the changes to the Viability Rankings to reflect recent tier changes, and wanted to kick-start some discussion in regards to the viability rankings.
Currently, the S- and A-Ranks do not properly reflect the current status of the metagame. There's been loose discussion on moving certain things to S, A, and dropping certain Pokemon to B or C. I'd like to encourage some solid back and forth discussion in order to better reflect the status of Middle Cup.
Discussion points:
Frodagier from Unranked to A+
Servine from A / wherever it was previously to B+
Doublade from S to A-
Dusclops from A+ to B
Electabuzz from A to S
Haunter from A to A+
Piloswine from A to A+
Seadra from B+ to A
I haven't added any explanations as I'm more curious about what the community thinks about these Pokemon (and others that I may not have mentioned), and want to encourage active discussion as opposed to having the playerbase blindly agree with me. Keep in mind that a more active playerbase results in a healthier Viability Ranking. Get out there and test!
I've also been thinking of getting a small tournament together. I'm currently working on a few logistical things (the biggest is 5-ish active members), but I'd like to hopefully start and run a 16- to 32-man tournament by the beginning of April.
To end this post, a couple of notes:
In respect to the arguments of sorting out E-Rank: I've previously stated that arguing the placement of things simply not viable in MC is silly and a waste of a post. I do not believe the bugs should be ranked separately from things like Jigglypuff, Tranquill, etc. If a Pokemon has no viability, then it simply has no viability, and the ability to outperform a cocoon is irrelevant. E-rank will not be dedicated to the cocoons based on the definition of E-Rank - the ranking given to Pokemon with no viability in Middle Cup.
Smogon currently has this link on the strategy dex, and I'd like to make more use of it. I'll send some PMs to the boffins at the C&C departments and see if I'm allowed to edit it using my SCMS access (haven't used it in a year+, so I'd rather not step on any toes if I shouldn't). If that's the case, I'll sit down with BrandonBeast and anyone else willing to participate, and we'll generate viable sets for everything currently in Middle Cup, and host them there. I doubt we'll be able to get into full-blown analysis territory due to the status of MC as an Other Metagame, but the additional resource would do anyone wanting to get into Middle Cup a lot of good.
Currently, the S- and A-Ranks do not properly reflect the current status of the metagame. There's been loose discussion on moving certain things to S, A, and dropping certain Pokemon to B or C. I'd like to encourage some solid back and forth discussion in order to better reflect the status of Middle Cup.
Discussion points:
Frodagier from Unranked to A+
Servine from A / wherever it was previously to B+
Doublade from S to A-
Dusclops from A+ to B
Electabuzz from A to S
Haunter from A to A+
Piloswine from A to A+
Seadra from B+ to A
I haven't added any explanations as I'm more curious about what the community thinks about these Pokemon (and others that I may not have mentioned), and want to encourage active discussion as opposed to having the playerbase blindly agree with me. Keep in mind that a more active playerbase results in a healthier Viability Ranking. Get out there and test!
I've also been thinking of getting a small tournament together. I'm currently working on a few logistical things (the biggest is 5-ish active members), but I'd like to hopefully start and run a 16- to 32-man tournament by the beginning of April.
To end this post, a couple of notes:
In respect to the arguments of sorting out E-Rank: I've previously stated that arguing the placement of things simply not viable in MC is silly and a waste of a post. I do not believe the bugs should be ranked separately from things like Jigglypuff, Tranquill, etc. If a Pokemon has no viability, then it simply has no viability, and the ability to outperform a cocoon is irrelevant. E-rank will not be dedicated to the cocoons based on the definition of E-Rank - the ranking given to Pokemon with no viability in Middle Cup.
Smogon currently has this link on the strategy dex, and I'd like to make more use of it. I'll send some PMs to the boffins at the C&C departments and see if I'm allowed to edit it using my SCMS access (haven't used it in a year+, so I'd rather not step on any toes if I shouldn't). If that's the case, I'll sit down with BrandonBeast and anyone else willing to participate, and we'll generate viable sets for everything currently in Middle Cup, and host them there. I doubt we'll be able to get into full-blown analysis territory due to the status of MC as an Other Metagame, but the additional resource would do anyone wanting to get into Middle Cup a lot of good.
hi yeah that'd be fine i'll help also but full analyses will not be a thing for a long time unfortunately :s (though i wouldn't mind THEM!)