ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[Tesung]

Just because something is not fun to play against isn't a reason to not drop for a retest. We could basically say this to a lot of Pokemon in current OU. I wouldn't mind a retest, not saying it'll pass but it's worth to see if Aegislash has changed from XY meta to ORAS meta. But first I think Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye (though I don't find M-Sab to be broken but w/e) need looked at before we jump to any retests.

Not being fun to play against was only one of the reasons i gave.. And I play pokemon for fun idk bout u so I think thats a decent reason; having games based on stupid 5050s is annoying. We can test or w.e but actually dropping would be pointless and ruin ou.

Tesung Out of curiosity, what would you say to simply banning Scolipede and Smeargle? I argued for this several pages back and as far as I can tell, no huge controversy sprung from the suggestion(ofc, there's a lot of potential reasons for that). It'll definitely remove the two most powerful passers in the game while at the same time preserving things like BP mega-lop and celebi.

I don't really care, although I like scolipede's other sets so I guess I would prefer that it didnt happen. I think the best idea is that mods have the power to permaban anyone who uses a bp team n_n

 

[TFL]

I was told to voice my opinion on the idea of an Aegislash retest -3-

I'd like to test it for two reasons:

1. It warps the entire metagame around it. Others are against this because it makes the tier less diverse, but I actually prefer the tier this way. As it stands there are just too many mons to prepare for and Aegislash's presence in the tier alone significantly decreases that amount to something that's reasonable.

2. The test itself was kind of silly with people going back and forth with their votes. Aegislash might have actually stayed if the votes were locked at the start. And even then, the vote was very close.

ps I hate the King's Shield argument now. We're still dealing with 50/50s every turn, which is easily seen at higher levels of play.

Oh yeh an Aegislash retest isn't really needed (I think the meta is mostly balanced at the moment) .. but I still want the Aegimeta back.

 

[WebBowser]

People don't want scolipede and smeargle tested because they serve other purposes besides their baton passing sets.
Scolipede can serve as a late game cleaner and fairy check with its Offensive LO set. That set definitely has some issues, and is definitely not metagame defining, but it is still there and reasonably effective.
Idk about smeargle though, hazard setting sets are stupid, i mean i guess dark void/spore is good but hazard stacking is still ass.

We always have and always will ban mons based on their best set. Very few people would say that non-scarfed genesect or u-turnless genesect would be issues, but because genesect had one broken set (I'm referring to scarf pivot), it didn't matter how many unbroken sets it had, it was still banworthy (you may argue that it had more then one broken set, but the argument still stands. He had plenty of unbroken sets).

Saying that LO cleaner Scolipede is unbroken, therefore we should keep it, is no better then saying that Mega Lucario without a boosting move is unbroken, or that shift gear Genesect is unbroken (RIP Sgt. Genesect).

Tesung I'm not sure whether you are serious with your suggestion or not, but I'd rather not create any rules about team composition of all things that needs to be enforced by the mods. They have enough on their hands policing the forums and chatrooms as is.

 

[trikx_insane]

What are the chances on an Aegislash retest?

50 / 50 hehe bwoi [couldn't resist]

--
to make this post relevant, im on the fence of aegislash retest. But I'm more on the side of no because all these new threats and power we got in oras just makes aegislash better. I like the metagame as it currently stands as nothing is really too overcentralizing or broken imo. there are a lot of threats such as lando-i, mega-gross, mega-sab, and keld but I think it's manageable to deal with. Mega-gross is the only thing in my eyes that currently deserves as a suspect because it has all the right tools for a suspect of great raw power, good ability pre and after mega, good speed, and decent bulk for an offense mon'. I wouldn't like it getting banned as I really haven't had too much trouble that it's unmanageable but I could see why if it does get suspected then banned. Mega-sab, i don't understand how people think this deserves a suspect, as it's 2hko'd by a lot of things, as people mentioned before, and fairy type is such a dominent type rn which is one of the most reliable answers to it.

edit; going on the genesect retest, i'm meh, on it. don't really know what to say about it, until it actually happens. i think it'll be cool if we test it tho however.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Like I've said in the past, I still am not convinced how the metagame was revolved around aegislash. All the pokemon that lost viability with him around still lost viability after the metagame changed and adapted. We worried that medicham, gard, and hera would shred playstyles.. but in the end they failed as stall quickly adapted and they are still hard checked by plenty of pokemon, talonflame particularly. When aegislash left, scizor become more viable and just took it's place as a garde answer. We still see many many pokemon running ice coverage for one pokemon (lando-T) so centralization in OU is certainly still there.. overall I don't think we'll see some massive metagame change outside serperior and altaria falling.. even starmie I argued nukes aegi decently hard with analytic hydro pumps making it still a viable spinner with or without him... at least now greninja is one less competition. Beedrill was never really that high (UU) and scizor has been mostly just used as a defogger/pursuit trapper/u-turn spammer rather than a sweeper like he tried to in the x/y meta. Hawlucha is still ruined by talonflame and broken sablegross.

The only thing aegislash honestly stopped was allowing us to see how broken our metagame was in x/y. We never had a balanced x/y meta, and while aegislash made it look balanced, we revealed mawile was broken as fuck when we booted him.. similarly, if we readded him now, we may not see which of the new megas and pokemon are broken, metagross, diancie, and gallade would just stand there. (Gallade I have a funny feeling about once sablegross leave. Likewise for diancie with metagross.) Then we'd just bring back the "Broken checking broken" argument from both pro-ban/anti-ban sides which pretty much flooded the suspect test.

Honestly, right now is an awful time to suspect aegislash. I still believe he should be retested but not now. We have problems rampaging atm, and they need taken care of.. likewise, bringing aegislash back isn't exactly a necessity, we're not bringing him back to change the metagame nor because we want him to return.. we're bringing him back because his last suspect test was very, very questionable, timed poorly, and was filled with a ton of bias from both sides. I think our members on the forums nearly doubled during that suspect test with first posters giving their 2cents (myself included), and the ladder was absolute ass basically handing regs to anyone out there.. and we're not keeping him out of OU because he wasn't "fun to handle" (lol what is?) but because we controversially believed he was broken or had a negative affect which even after the test is a forever lasting debate.

Let's suspect test metagross first. See how gallade and sableye fair, and then worry about the likes of aegislash.

Off topic, but can I just point out that serperior, volcarona, SD talonflame, Charizard X, and emboar counter sableye pretty hard. Just some of them are unviable with the bird and lando around.

I'll give my 2 cents on scolipede in a bit.. but I don't believe he's broken at all.

 

[DoomX]

I dont understand why people wouldnt want to retest a pokemon. Lets say we banned say zapdos for example in xy for being too "op". (This would never happen just an example.) But then obviously in a dfferent metagame (oras ou) it could be easily dealt with. My point is we wouldnt know how good a banned pokemon is after it is retested. We can theorymon about these bannedmons all we want but at the end of the day you cant prove how broken it is untill you actually see it being played in a different meta. And i dont think it hurts anyway to retest mons that werent over the top

Oh and i also dont think we should be banning anymore mons untill after anything worthy of retesting is resolved. Only for the simple reason "one ban will eventually lead to another ban"

 

[yamb]

I dont understand why people wouldnt want to retest a pokemon. Lets say we banned say zapdos for example in xy for being too "op". (This would never happen just an example.) But then obviously in a dfferent metagame (oras ou) it could be easily dealt with. My point is we wouldnt know how good a banned pokemon is after it is retested. We can theorymon about these bannedmons all we want but at the end of the day you cant prove how broken it is untill you actually see it being played in a different meta. And i dont think it hurts anyway to retest mons that werent over the top

Oh and i also dont think we should be banning anymore mons untill after anything worthy of retesting is resolved. Only for the simple reason "one ban will eventually lead to another ban"

If Zapdos was banned for reasons that haven't been mitigated at all by metagame shifts or new megas/tutors, there's really no point in retesting it. It's just a reroll for people still butthurt about the outcome of the first test.

 

[Karxrida]

If Zapdos was banned for reasons that haven't been mitigated at all by metagame shifts or new megas/tutors, there's really no point in retesting it. It's just a reroll for people still butthurt about the outcome of the first test.

It's not like that test was super close or anything. There's only a small group that wants it back, not a sizable chunk of the community. No sir, just like 10 guys.

Please let the sarcasm be apparent.

Stop saying we're butthurt. We have legitimate reasons for wanting a retest, as stated by more eloquent posters.

 

[DoomX]

Uh some of the new megas can deal with some of the bans like Mega-Sableye can deal with Deoxys for instance. Lmfao like i said we can theorymon all we want but whats it gonna prove?

 

[Simperheve]

I think if we start going down the route of re-testing, we could end up pushing the state of the metagame backwards. My reasoning for this is that if we re-test/approve previously banned pokemon, pokemon that became viable due to the bans would suddenly become unviable again. Also, we'd see a lot of these pokemon making up the majority of teams, making for a less varied metagame. If we really want to re-test something, we should be looking to see if the reasons they were banned in the first place have been mitigated (perhaps in the form of counters/ team building strategies etc).

For now we should be looking in to see what is centralising the metagame. We should start by looking at Mega Sableye/Metagross, as most people have suggested.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Uh some of the new megas can deal with some of the bans like Mega-Sableye can deal with Deoxys for instance. Lmfao like i said we can theorymon all we want but whats it gonna prove?

This just brings back the age old cover up of "broken beats broken".

I repeat, it's not theorymonning if we've experienced the meta with the Pokemon before. Nothing has been added that puts Aegi in its place, so, nothing changed. We can retest it all we want, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing was added to make Aegi less centralizing.

 

[Synchronation]

While we have one of the most balanced metagame since a long time it is still not an enjoyable metagame. We still have a few serious problems which needs to be solved.
I would like to bring up the post from UltiMario since he worded it perfectly what the current problem is: staleness and too many threats to prepare for.

Hide

I'd like to see more discussion on the 2 closest suspects in Smogon's history: Aegislash and Genesect.

I'd like to first note Genesect because it feels like if something in Ubers is going to drop, it's going to be Gene. It used to be Greninja's big brother when it was around in early XY, but now Gren way surpassed it in terms of power and versatility, and while it was easily Ubers, it wasn't absolutely meta breaking like most Ubers (ex Mence). Especially with the light power creep introduced by ORAS and seeing how the ORAS meta's capability to at least somewhat handle a mon that was basically LO and Scarf Gene with better coverage rolled up into 1 set, I really don't see Gene's power, versatility, or access to Download being as defining as they were in XY. Especially not on only base 99 Spe.

Aegis on the other hand is sitting on a slightly higher pedestal, unlike Gene it has the full ability to warp the metagame around it, being the deciding factor on what is viable and what is not. However, in Aegis' case... that's a good thing.

This is where we start digging deeper. There is one really notable problem right now: Lando-T. It's usage has far surpassed anything that any OU meta has ever seen, its prevalence is so all-encompassing that at their highest usage when they were together in a metagame, it currently has more usage than the combined usage of both Aegislash and Genesect. Why is this happening? The answer is pretty obvious: there simply aren't other good pivots in the tier. If you need glue, it's Lando-T. It's the only thing left that can answer the sheer volume of threats ORAS has, and it effectively prevents many things from tearing the tier apart. This is a serious problem. Much larger than MGross, much larger than Sableye, much larger than Shadow Tag. The game is currently stuck in a fixated state where if you're not running stall, you're nearly forced to run Lando-T because you don't have other options. The threats are too large in number and are too strong in XY. This is a problem that the game's been having since Gen 5, the questions too far outnumber the answers, and the threats are much stronger than the Pokemon used to check them. This causes a game heavily biased by team match-ups, where your opponent could be carrying something you simply do not have the room to check, causing a near instant loss. Lando-T is used on so many teams because it shrinks the number of instant-loss mons by an incredibly large number. It is the last good pivot left in the game.

This is where we go back to Gene and Aegis. These mons are threats in their own right, they both are versatile, hit like a truck, and have overall fantastic stat allocation and typing. This is how they got in Ubers, but maybe we should've looked deeper into the meta shifts before we did this. Genesect's ban might've caused the worst meta in Smogon's history, it took multiple bans that happened over the course of months to finally put the game into a state where HO teams weren't ruining the game, and this fault game from the fact Gene was the glue that prevented all that from happening. Gene no longer has this power, as the types of teams it negated are no longer viable due to these bans, but it still is a strong asset to checking offensive threats in the meta. Aegis also dictated the game, making many otherwise OU-capable mons get stuck into BL or UU because they simply can't cope with it. Both these held the game in a state where dozens of Pokemon were locked away, unviable as threats because these Pokemon existed. They were the perfect pivots. They did what Lando-T is doing now, but also doubled as very good mons on their own. Ultimately, this is what the game needs. We currently are stuck in a meta where it is no longer possible to build non-stall teams that that sufficiently check the metagame (and it's only possible for stall to do that because of M-Sable), and this is where we need to look at suspects not in the perspective of their individual ability, but the effect they have on the game. Many people wanted to ban Aegis initially because it would bring more versatility into the game, but I believe after seeing how the Gen 6 meta has progressed it's pretty clear that versatility isn't always a good thing. Sometimes we need these incredibly strong pivots to prevent many threats from being viable in OU, which allows a meta that is less dictated on team match-up and more on teambuilding and player skill. I feel like both these mons would help weaken the power of top threats such as Mgross while not being completely overbearing in themselves.


As a final note, I'd like to discuss MSableye in regards to the potential of these mons dropping. As is stands, with Sable banned, stall is done. We will actually be left with 0 playstyles left in the game where the game comes down to mostly player skill rather than team match-up, since no other playstyles are currently capable of avoiding bad match-ups. Even Goth doesn't dictate an instant loss for stall due to the strength of MSable stall teams. I think this change is incredibly bad for the game if not complimented with something else, and that something else is Aegislash. If Aegis were to drop, I'd fully support a suspect test for Sableye, since now stall would have the wiggle room to play around with many different metas and team building styles, rather than being stuck in a place where they're just building around Sableye. Aegis not only is a strong asset for stall teams that would prevent the forced usage of Sableye on stall, but its presence in the meta pushes out threats that Stall currently has to worry about, many of which are Sableye checks. With Aegis in the meta I'm very confident that Sabeye's presence would no longer be needed, and if Aegis and Sable were swapped out we'd end with stall having less restrictive teambuilding while building for and against stall.


tl;dr- Aegis and Gene have a positive effect on the game because they encourage a game based on teambuilding and player skill rather than team match-ups. We should suspect test to drop them. Sableye as it currently stands is fine, but if Aegis drops it needs a test.

As you would expect from me I totally agree with the retesting of Aegislash. Many people were argueing what changed and how it will be a healthy presence but this we should discuss in the suspect thread. The main reasons for the retests are the staleness, lack of diversity and very unfair outcome of the votes from its suspect test. Especially the last reason is enough to warrant a retest because Aegislash deserves a fair and good discussion and judgement without any controversity and last-minute vote changing. I am looking forward to a (hopefully) great suspect test!
About Genesect, I am on the fence about it since it acts like Beedrill and Greninja put together. I don't have anything against a retest but I think if Greninja is too much Genesect is probably too much too.

The next big problem is again and still BatonPass-Teams. Just like WebBowser stated none of the clauses solved the problem these teams caused. Therefore I am AGAINST a suspect test and would like to QUICKBAN Scolipede and Smeargle altogether.
We have really enough problems and can not afford to waste more time on too many suspect tests. There is much to do and I don't think that Baton Pass needs more discussion. If we just quickban them the problem is solved and if enough players think this is not the right desicion we can retest both after we are done with everything else. For now both of them should be removed from OU without any suspect test.

The same suggestion I would like to make for Shadow Tag, or better Gothitelle. Including myself there are enough players who are thinking that Gothitelle is an unhealthy presence in the metagame and should therefore be banned. So many suspect tests are taking too much time so I prefer to quickban her too and retest her later when all suspect tests are done if it is neccessary.

Now to the probably only broken monsters left in OU which needs a suspect test:
First off Mega-Sableye. It is metagame-defining, is a burden in the teambuilding process and makes stall so much more viable that it is a serious problem. Even if you think it is not broken as a Pokemon itself its presence alone is a very unhealthy one and one of the many reasons this metagame is as stale as it is now. Run Sableye or run one or more fairys. Definitely suspect-worthy.
Mega-Metagross is the second one we should suspect. There are bulky but slow sweepers, there are fast but frail sweepers and there is Metagross. Great defensive typing with great defensive stats, a nearly perfect movepool and fast enough to outspeed or speedtie a majority of the metagame. These traits make it the perfect offensive mega out there and that warrants a suspect test. Not going into more details since this is not a suspect thread.

In terms of the order I would quickban Shadowtag and the two Batonpasser first. After that we can retest Aegislash (and maybe Genesect) to see how it fits in the current metagame. Testing Sableye and Metagross before is possible too to avoid "broken-checks-broken" arguments.

 

[WebBowser]

Synchronation You have some interesting ideas, but I think we need a bit more discussion on the merits of quickban vs suspect test before I can get fully behind the idea that a quick ban is warrented.

Historically, quick bans are reserved for mons who are so obviously broken that suspecting them would be a total waste of time. Scolipede, Smeargle, and Goth are nowhere near that level of power. Don't get me wrong, I still believe the former two are broken, and I'm on the fence about the latter, but even I would not try to compare Scolipede to the likes of Mega Kanga and Megamence (though he can setup in front of them, lol).

Therefore, one of two things need to happen if you want a quick ban: One, someone needs to convince the OU council (cuz they do quick bans) that I'm wrong and that Scoli, Smeargle and Goth really are that broken (good luck with that), or someone needs to convince the OU council that the benefits of quick banning them far outweigh the benefits of suspecting by so much that they would be willing to essentially change their rules and set a new (and potentially dangerous) precedent for quick bans.

So let's start by laying out the pros and cons of quick ban vs suspect

Quick Ban

Pros:

1. It's faster
2. It's guaranteed to result in a ban
3. Higher average quality of "voters" (I'm assuming that the OU council is more skilled then your average competitive player)

Cons:

1. Removes community influence
2. Smaller voting pool
3. Can potentially set a very dangerous precedent (what's the point of suspect tests if the council can just arbitrarily overrule/circumvent them?)


Suspect Test

Pros:

1. Well established and accepted method for determining whether or not something is broken.
2. Allows for community input
3. Gives the community a chance to experience a ladder with the suspects banned before a decision is made.

Cons:

1. It takes a lot of time
2. Many members of the community have little to no experience playing with or against the 3 suspects in question, even if they are otherwise competent players. This may affect their decision making.


That's all I have so far. Do you agree with this list? If not, what needs to be added/removed/changed? If the list is fine, do you still believe that a quick ban is appropriate here? Why?

And this discussion is, of course, open to anyone. Feel free to chip in.

 

[Latere]

^Good points, I’m heavily against quickbans for such controversial mons. As it stands right now I’d be for banning Smeargle and Scoli, against banning Goth. The thing is I can be swayed by good arguments from either side. Maybe somebody defending BP can list a ton of counters I had never even considered, or maybe somebody that wants Shadowtag gone could show me how it’s too much for certain playstyles. Also laddering on the Suspect Ladder can change my (and everybody elses) opinion on whether or not they should be banned. If a quickban took place then 1) I wouldn’t really understand or agree with why Goth had to leave and 2) as you said, the council can basically do whatever it wants. Quickbans should be saved for things that 99% of the community can see is broken, not things that have good arguments from both sides. If Gren was never considered for a quickban then no way in hell should Scoli, Smeargle or Goth be lol. Not to mention that Shadowtag has been in XY since the beginning and hasn’t received any buffs with ORAS, what’s the point in all of a sudden rushing to ban something that’s been around for so long?

So while I can see those three mons potentially getting banned, neither are anywhere near broken enough to be quickbanned. Nothing in the tier currently deserves to be quickbanned. Honestly I feel like Mega Eye is overrated and I’d probably be against banning it, Megagross can go either way. I’m iffy on Aegi coming back just because of the uncompetitive 50/50s it forces.

 

[qways]

Those are my opinions about the current meta:

Metagross: I would like to see it banned, it has all of bulk, speed, power and coverage, i even think it is more ban worthy than greninja.

Sableye: I dont get why some of you would like to ban it. its defenses are underwhelming for a stall mon and it cant switch into any strong physical moves. sure it deals with all the stall breakers which makes evevn non mega sableye stall more playable) and thus let stall run extreme passive stuff like chansey and cresselia, but Sableye itself isnt a wall. There is more stall than before on the ladder, but it isnt close to being dominant.

gothitelle stag: it can be annoying, but it rarely takes out more than 1 mon and often it can only trick something before it dies, and it is also pursuit weak, so no suspect/ban

geo pass/baton pass: i rarely see those teams (reading some posts i would think the ladder is full of them) and afaik there arent any of them at the top of the ladder so i also dont get why it should be suspected.

Ubers retesting: i think deoxys-d should be retested after a metagross suspect because the magic bounce users make it more difficult for it to work, but all the others (genesect, aegislahs etc...) should stay and not even tested.

 

[Croconaw Guy]

First, I am definitely in favor of suspect testing Mega Metagross for all of the reasons people have mentioned (bulk, speed, power, and so on). I think the fact that many people who don't think it's broken (and I do) have admitted that it is at least suspect-worthy makes me think that not only should it be tested, but it should be the first priority.

I don't feel strongly about Sableye, Aegislash, or Genesect. Do not retest Deoxys though please - how many times do we need to prove that Deoxys is cancer?

Gothitelle is a major problem. Any good player has to be able to beat stall, but Gothitelle is something of a "free pass" against at least one mon, and it's not like balance really likes to face it either when they often rely on Heatran, Ferrothorn, Clefable, etc. Shadow Tag is cancer, and this needs to be looked at, though I don't think it's the hugest priority right now since it's fairly uncommon.

Someone mentioned Stealth Rock earlier. I am really intrigued by Stealth Rock. First of all, it is objectively broken--you are at a disadvantage if you don't use it--but it also adds an element to the game that I personally enjoy. Hazards punish giving free turns to opponents and allow you to wear down opposing mons more easily, so I think that they do add to the skill element of the game in terms of in-battle execution ("winning the hazards game"). I don't think SR is cancer or anything like that (quite the opposite). Still, this is just an opinion, but I don't think that you can just ignore how insanely broken it is, and I think SR affects the metagame so profoundly that it is really quite difficult to predict how a SR-less metagame or even suspect ladder might look. I'm a little concerned that since DP, such a central part of the metagame hasn't even been looked at. Not that I think it should be banned, but given the open-ended nature of this thread, I thought I'd throw at least some support behind the idea of a SR test at some point in the future.

Lastly, this is admittedly quite out there, but has anyone considered looking at U-turn and Volt Switch? No other move provides so many win-wins. If you have a Scarf Land-T in on Latios or a Rotom-W in on a Keldeo, there is no reason *not* to pick the respective momentum move. Are we sure that such spammable moves are healthy for the metagame? Sure, they can be circumvented by making a well-timed ballsy play, staying in, and making the user pay for "momentum," but these are very risky plays and I think it's telling that actually stopping a VoltTurn is often very play-heavy. They corrupt the switching element of the game as Shadow Tag does, just in a far less extreme way. Again, I don't feel too strongly about this, but there are so many Pokemon that are effective BECAUSE they use these moves. Going back to DPP, is CB Scizor even remotely as good running Bug Bite? What about Scarf Flygon? I skipped gen 5, but here in ORAS, I wonder where Landorus-T would be if it had to run both Knock and Superpower instead of U-turn, how Rotom-W or Mega Manectric/Raikou usage would look being forced to run Thunderbolt, etc. The list is longer than you think. Besides Stealth Rock, these might be the best moves in the metagame. Even better than Knock Off.

All that said, I think the metagame is decently balanced except for Mega Metagross. I do worry a bit about what Diancie, Clefable, Azumarill, Gardevoir, and Altaria might look like in such a meta, but I guess that's what a suspect test is for.

 

[Josh Morales]

Someone mentioned Stealth Rock earlier. I am really intrigued by Stealth Rock. First of all, it is objectively broken--you are at a disadvantage if you don't use it--but it also adds an element to the game that I personally enjoy. Hazards punish giving free turns to opponents and allow you to wear down opposing mons more easily, so I think that they do add to the skill element of the game in terms of in-battle execution ("winning the hazards game"). I don't think SR is cancer or anything like that (quite the opposite). Still, this is just an opinion, but I don't think that you can just ignore how insanely broken it is, and I think SR affects the metagame so profoundly that it is really quite difficult to predict how a SR-less metagame or even suspect ladder might look. I'm a little concerned that since DP, such a central part of the metagame hasn't even been looked at. Not that I think it should be banned, but given the open-ended nature of this thread, I thought I'd throw at least some support behind the idea of a SR test at some point in the future.

.

The reason I think Stealth Rock is broken is because many people say "If you ban Stealth Rocks than the Mega Zard forms, Talonflame, and more become OP" but you know what? Why is it in literally every single suspect test thread and viability ranking thread that every and all broken-checks-broken arguments are discarded for their invalidity, but not regarding Stealth Rocks? Some people might also say that it's been so long with Stealth Rocks in the game and the metagame has been affected by it for so long that it would be too big of a change to the game they know, but I think anything broken needs to be banned, no exceptions. You say it's too late? I say better later than never.

 

[Kurona]

I honestly wouldn't worry about Fairies should Metagross go. That's only one check/counter that's not even on that many teams; there's a ton of viable answers such as Lando-I, Bisharp, Gengar, Magnezone and Jirachi.

 

[michaeloche]

Not sure if this is the best place for this, but per Serebii (scroll to the bottom), the Micle, Custap, Jaboca, and Rowap Berries should now be legal.

As for the something to suspect, I am going to agree with the general consensus of suspecting Metagrossite and Sablenite. However, I don't think Mega Sableye is broken tbh. It's powerful when used correctly, but it has enough problems imo. Among other things, Magic Guard CM Clefable handles it pretty well, assuming the Megaeye is what most people run (CM/Recover/Willomiss/DPulse), many strong STAB moves beat it if it's unboosted, and it's horrifically slow.

Mega Metagross, on the other hand, is quite a bit closer to being broken. The increased speed is what does it for me, as it now can actually outrun things without Agility. Granted, that 110 base Speed tier is jam packed now (Gengar, M-Gallade, M-Diancie, Lati@s, etc.), and the recent spike in Starmie and Raikou usage makes things a bit tougher for our favorite supercomputer. Still, its combination of power, bulk, and speed make it suspect worthy, and even potentially banworthy.

Another thing I could support suspecting is Landorus-T. Not because he is broken (because he is not), but because of how overcentralizing he can be. He's getting around 31% usage last month iirc, which roughly is 1 in 3 battles. Yes, a lot of stuff gets Ice Beam/Punch, but some of those don't even win anyway, especially Ice Punch. Hell, he can even run Yache Berry for those types of moves, though that's more surprise factor than anything else.

That's all I can justify suspecting atm. As for retesting, MAYBE Aegislash and Genesect, but those are very strong maybes.

Now I need to go complain to Honko about not having ORAS megas in the damage calculator n_n.

 

[Firebird101]

I have to admit when I first used Mega Gross I found it somewhat underwhelming and had a too severe case of 4mss to even be S-class worthy. But that was also in the early ORAS meta when Mega Mence was around so it is impossible to not to look bad when you are competing against to one of the most broken mons to ever have graced OU for the mega slot xD As time went by and people and myself learned how to use it I became more aware what kind of powerhouse it was and unlike any other sweepers it had everything it needs just as it enters the battle. Even powerhouses like Zard X and Mega Gyara have to setup a dd before reaching a desirable speed because 100 speed just doesn't cut it anymore while MGross can start wreck things from turn 1. Not to mention it also has the bulk (fucking steels >_<) to tank hits and make it extremely difficult to ohko and excellent coverage to make it's checks very scarce, to the point where it is Mega Gross itself that chooses them. At this point it warrants a suspect test as it is without a doubt the strongest pokemon in the tier so I believe it is only fair it's looked further into.

Mega Eye is very different from Mega Gross and one of a kind mon. As the very first defensive-oriented magic bouncer it can take full advantage of it's ability and typing with very few (aka only one) weaknesses and is arguably the most centralizing pokemon at the moment cuz you aren't climbing any OU ladder if you don't have a way to deal with Mega Eye. Not only does it dominate the hazard battle just by it's presence but it shuts down dozens of pretty viable mons and sets almost single-handledly and even the terrifying Mega Gallade has to rely on the gimmicky Skill Swap to get passed Mega Eye. But I think most of his qualities don't work as well as they do in theory because good players are well prepared for it and for me the biggest problem with it atm is how centralizing it is. Everyone are running fairies and I find myself thinking Mega Eye to be the number one reason for that. Heck, you can even argue Mega Eye's presence is making Mega Gross look even better. Mega Eye should be considered for a suspect test but I feel Mega Gross takes more priority.

WebBowser made some good posts about STag and BP and I agree with them for the most part. But I do have my doubts that Mega Eye should be suspected first as he mentioned STaggers (Gothitelle in particular) are best looked at when they aren't other broken mons around to make sure STag is a inherent broken ability but I think it can also work the other way around. Mega Eye is so much more threatening with STaggers eliminating the fairies that it can also make Mega Eye look more broken than it actually is. But as for BP I think the best option would be suspect testing Smeargle and Scolipede instead of BP or Geomancy as neither moves are really inherently broken, just easy to exploit and the biggest fault lies with the baton passers themselves.

As for retesting Aegis, Gene and Deo-D.... please don't do it. I get that the former two were just barely banned and Deo-D has to deal with better magic bouncers now but all of them were ultimately banned for having bad influence on the metagame and I don't think that has changed at all. Aegis eats most of the new mega's for breakfast and we have 3 psychics who are just now climbing back to OU after Aegis knocked them down. It is a super glue with great defenses and offenses that forces countless mons to carry a super-effective stab or coverage against it to not to be free switchin. Gene was the ultimate pivot that wore down the opposite team with next to no effort whatsoever with Heatran the only "counter" who is easily worn down and just easily eliminated with Dugtrio. Deo-D is still the king of hazards and having a potential "counter" in Mega Eye is a terrible argument as it is still just a one mon and a mega, not to mention Mega Eye is in for a possible suspect test itself so chances are it's not even gonna be still in OU when we can retest things for real. And btw, similar how it often carried superpower to ohko the opposite Bisharps it can carry flash cannon so I seriously doubt Mega Diancie is gonna be much help against it.

I suppose though we can retest them when we have dealt with the other stuff but I don't think any of them would be a good addition to OU, at best we could quiet the majority of the folks who think they'd be fine in OU but it's not like we can ever get a 100% ban ratio so I dunno if it is worth to do it even if it is just to please the minority.

 

[Patolegend!]

How people can state Mega Metagross needs to go just baffles me. This is an EXCELLENT pokemon, but no more.

At some point, we're just going to have to accept that the metagame has got more powerful, rather than move from suspect test to suspect test until we can finally say "stall is viable!!"

Stall is an incredible playstyle now, and has always been one of the most consistent when played well. If we were to hammer any 'mon now it might be MegaSableye; however I loathe this happening.

The problem we have now is that there are no OBVIOUS suspects. Everyone can see from the discussions here that people are 50/50, with more involved discussions going on about re-testing than bans. We're trying to find 'mons to ban for the sake of it more than anything else (this point is beautifully illustrated above in someone nominating Lando-T due to its 31% usage).

I see the meta now as pretty balanced, with nothing too strong that can't be handled. We have excellent pokemon that can define certain stalls, but each has flaws that keep them on the right side of that broken line.

The only reason I can see to try and swing the banhammer at the minute is "to avoid the meta getting stale". I feel like a lot of people are just getting on the suspect happy bandwagon for the sake of it, due to nostalgia "for the good old days" before the power creep, instead of adjusting to and enjoying what we have, now that we've removed the obviously broken 'mons.

------------------------------

With that being said, I can see the logic in retesting 'mons to "stop the meta getting stale", but can't imagine a meta in which Aegi, Gene, and others wouldn't be broken, as the changes that have been made haven't really done anything significant to their status in the meta.

Aegi was arguably the other side of the broken line that I mentioned earlier, and was considered undesirable by a majority of the community. I don't see how that has/will changed; it's still the same 'mon, with the same powerful offensive and defensive typing.

Gene is broken. It's been voted broken for more than one gen for a reason; it's excellent typing, power and speed are complemented perfectly by its ability and movepool. I can't see any change in the meta that would imply that it would be otherwise. The ability to go physical, mixed, or special at +1 with the freedom to change item, in addition to the plethora of sets it can run (not just the ridiculously annoying scarf set) makes it untenable in the current meta.

tl;dr I'm happy with where the meta's at right now.

 

[dadoux]

Suspect Gross? Yes.

I don't think it will be banned, even though i feel like Mega-gross is in the same vein as Greninja, as a mon with a large enough movepool to feel the need to pivot around it before finding how to check it, don't even bring the fact that "guuuh you can check it with slowbro !" because you will prove my point : Gross is scary enough to make you feel the need to turn your Offense into a Balanced because you'll have an hard-ass time dealing with it, pretty much like Greninja. I don't know how a metagame will turn out without Gross, i might feel the need to try it out to feel like the ban is worth it or not. If it gives more teambuilding freedom i won't mind.

Suspect M-Sableye ? Yes.

Mega-Sableye deserves a suspect because it's just amazing. Really good bulk, OP ability for a Calm minder, spammable stabs, only one weakness that is mainly specially oriented with only Azumarill / DD Altaria having an offensive fairy attack...both of them being easily burned so they can't switch at all. Mega-sableye is not over-centralizing the metagame, but it's just a pain to deal with, at least Mega-slowbro can be dealt with easily compared to him, the sole fact that you can't even toxic him makes him really strong, maybe even too strong, that's why . I don't think it will be banned, but i'm always thinking of the teambuilding impact of a ban, and not being forced to play a fat fairy in every team I make to avoid a snowball from Sableye sounds pretty nice to me.

Suspect Aegislash for an unban? Oh hell no.

Why? I'd rather ban everything that became super strong after Aegislash was banned than unban him, that's just an easy-answer to make you feel like the metagame is balanced because it is centralized around one bs that can check the whole metagame. It's not a good idea in my opinion, putting one Aegislash per team doesn't make a balanced metagame guys.

Suspect cheap-ass strategies? Hm...why not.

Suspecting things like Geopass and Shadow tag feels like a two-edged sword to me, because putting such strategies on the spotlight means that you are forced to ban them. Why? Because we already experienced that in the past, everytime we suspect something like BP or Swagger, EVERYONE wants to test them, the meaning of theses bans is to have a better ladder experience, right? So...now that the ladder has become shit because we made a thread about a cheap strategy...we are forced to ban it, because if we don't, it will be unbearable to ladder since everyone will use it.


Tl:dr Suspect priorities Gross > Sableye >>>>>>>>> Cheap strats. Unbanning Aegislash/Genesect : NEVER pls.

 

[Simperheve]

My thoughts on Geopass and SmashPass:

I really don't think Baton Pass needs more limitations than it already has. Banning Scolipede and Smeargle means you lose two of the most prominent baton passers in OU (and given the BP clause you can only have one) and moves us one step closer to just making Baton Pass unviable in its entirety. I have never found a Scolipede that isn't running Baton Pass (it's that easy to predict), and Smeargle is so fragile i'm surprised people use it in OU. It just seems to be that we're nominating them for bans simply because they survive long enough to pass boosts onto their teammates (which I thought was the whole point of BP anyway).

 

[trikx_insane]

The reason I think Stealth Rock is broken is because many people say "If you ban Stealth Rocks than the Mega Zard forms, Talonflame, and more become OP" but you know what? Why is it in literally every single suspect test thread and viability ranking thread that every and all broken-checks-broken arguments are discarded for their invalidity, but not regarding Stealth Rocks? Some people might also say that it's been so long with Stealth Rocks in the game and the metagame has been affected by it for so long that it would be too big of a change to the game they know, but I think anything broken needs to be banned, no exceptions. You say it's too late? I say better later than never.

eh, i see where you think stealth rocks is similiar to broken - checking - broken, but the difference is that stealth rocks affects the whole metagame and doesn't keep a certain specific group of pokemon in check. it has other benefits like breaking sturdy / sash and also the ability to speed the game up and pressure switches. otherwise teh game would just be full of easy switching around and there's no cost at all for switching. it doesn't force you to use defog / rapid spin, i've seen plenty of teams that are able to deal with stealth rocks w/o hazard removal. now i know what you may be thinking, "well if a move has all the uses and utility, doesn't it kind of seem broken?" , like i said, stealth rocks helps keep the whole metagame at check and doesn't keep a certain group at check. You're not forced to use stealth rocks at all in order to win, it's just an added benefit that will help you win. besides, it's not like only a certain small group of mons' can learn stealth rocks either, there are a lot of pokemon that are able to use stealth rocks and able to do hazard removal, giving more viability to certain pokemon and more variety toward the metagame. i've never seen myself say 'oh i have to use [x pokemon], because it's the only one out of the 5 pokemon that can use stealth rocks". it's also kind of cool that stealth rocks can help limit bans in a healthy way, that way we don't have to see so much crap in ou go away that are fun to play with and aren't neccessarily overly broken. stealth rock also promotes another strategy within the game instead of the usual attack / defend / switch. Stealth Rocks isn't impossible to deal with neither, there's magic guard / hazard removal [defog/rapid spin] / magic bounce / and pokemon that resist and take minimal dmg from sr.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Here's one that I seen members in the victory road section bring up a couple times but hasn't been mentioned in awhile... Banning scald.

A lot of people claim that the burn chance of scald is and was always very uncompetitive which undoubtedly, it kinda is. Scald's RNG can be the wincon of almost every game. Not really much else for me to say on scald..